| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"grateful" |
| Date: |
05 Apr 2004 11:14:24 AM |
| Object: |
Isaiah 53 does not, cannot refer to Israel |
1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer.
Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation:
"Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of
evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same
chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the
people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and
21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah
53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"
(Excerpt for site listed below)
This website explains in detail why Isa. 53 refers to the
Messiah, not to Israel
http://www.chaim.org/nation.htm
.
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| User: "cindys" |
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| Title: Re: Isaiah 53 does not, cannot refer to Israel |
05 Apr 2004 01:01:42 PM |
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"grateful" <crossroads1991@aol.com> wrote in message
news:13f2c124.0404050814.53aaeb1e@posting.google.com...
1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer.
Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation:
"Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of
evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same
chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the
people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and
21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah
53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"
(Excerpt for site listed below)
This website explains in detail why Isa. 53 refers to the
Messiah, not to Israel
------------
This website explains why Jesus could not have been the messiah:
www.jewsforjudaism.com
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Isaiah 53 does not, cannot refer to Israel |
06 Apr 2004 06:20:34 PM |
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cindys wrote:
"grateful" <crossroads1991@aol.com> wrote in message
news:13f2c124.0404050814.53aaeb1e@posting.google.com...
1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer.
Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation:
"Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of
evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same
chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the
people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and
21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah
53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"
(Excerpt for site listed below)
This website explains in detail why Isa. 53 refers to the
Messiah, not to Israel
------------
This website explains why Jesus could not have been the messiah:
===>Because Christians prefer to twist it to refer to Jesus, even though
it is referring to events that happened in the PAST OF ISAIAH!
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| User: "Uh-huh" |
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| Title: Re: Isaiah 53 does not, cannot refer to Israel |
05 Apr 2004 07:01:53 PM |
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It never ceases to amaze me how Xtians believe they can interpret Scripture
written by and for Jews through the inspiration of G-d (or transmitted
directly from G-d, depending on your views) more accurately that Jews can
and have for millenia.
Try this: Instead of picking out Isaiah 53-54, read these within the
context of chapters 52 and 55 and 56 and 1, 2, 3, etc. That is, READ THE
WHOLE OF ISAIAH. You might find that the terms "Servant of the L-RD" and
"Servants of the L-RD" are used interchangeably and refer to both men and
women.
If you insist on reading Isaiah 53-54 as some future event, then try this on
for size:
7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a
lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers
is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
When I read this I can't help but get a word-picture of the B&W photos from
the Ukraine and other locations, of Jews being led to the great open pits
and shot in the neck. Submissive and saying nothing. Jews not yet dead
stroking the hair of others shot in the midst of their own torment.
I'm not suggesting this an interpretation of this chapter. Just an example
of what can be suggested to us by reading isolated verses in Scripture.
Mike - on a journey toward Judaism and the wisdom of the ages.
"grateful" <crossroads1991@aol.com> wrote in message
news:13f2c124.0404050814.53aaeb1e@posting.google.com...
1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer.
Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation:
"Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of
evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same
chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the
people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and
21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah
53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"
(Excerpt for site listed below)
This website explains in detail why Isa. 53 refers to the
Messiah, not to Israel
http://www.chaim.org/nation.htm
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Isaiah 53 does not, cannot refer to Israel |
06 Apr 2004 06:18:27 PM |
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grateful wrote:
1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer.
Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation:
"Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of
evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same
chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the
people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and
21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah
53 who had "done no violence,
What about the violence credited to Jesus?
John 2:15
"And He made a scourge of cords,
and drove them all out of the temple,
with the sheep and the oxen;
and He poured out the coins of the money changers
and overturned their tables"
Does THAT sound like "no violence"???
nor was any deceit in his mouth!"
===>What about Luke 8:10
And He said,
"To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God,
but to the rest it is in parables,
so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE,
AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND"
And Matthew 12:16
"and warned them not to tell who He was"
And Mark 7:36
"And He gave them orders not to tell anyone"
And Luke 13:27
and He will say,
'I tell you, I do not know where you are from..."
If he was "GOD", as claimed, would he not know
where everyone was from?
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Isaiah 53 does not, cannot refer to Jesus |
08 Apr 2004 10:54:52 AM |
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grateful wrote:
1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq005.html
"Answer: The fact is that the identity of the servant has already been
established by Isaiah in previously stated passages. In Isaiah 41 :8-9;
44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3 the prophet identifies Israel as the servant.
Moreover, the history of Israel, down through the ages shows that the
servant is, none other than Israel personified. Chapter 53 reiterates this
fact by providing an historic overview of the tragedies and triumphs of the
servant, Israel, throughout its history. Who would believe that this exiled
nation, this humiliated loathsome Jewish people would be fated to survive
the vicissitudes of its historical sufferings to once more have a future
entailing prominence, hope, and joy"
Susan
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