| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Disciple Gaius" |
| Date: |
20 Mar 2007 11:50:09 AM |
| Object: |
Isaiah 7:14 - 'virgin' or 'young woman', or both? |
Isaiah 7:14 NRSV
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young
woman(r) is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him
Immanuel." [Footnote r: Gk 'the virgin']
Matthew 1:22,23 NRSV
"All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord
through the prophet: 'Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall name him Emmanuel,' which means, 'God is with us.'"
The NRSV is correct from a 'word for word', literal translation
perspective in the Hebrew. "The young woman" is the Hebrew 'almah' and
Strong's defines it as "a lass (as veiled or private)" and The
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew & English Lexicon gives: "young woman (ripe
sexually; maid or newly married)". BUT, this is where a "word for
word, literal translation" can be misleading. In Genesis 24 we have
the story of Rebekah, and we see the interchangeability of "virgin"
v16, with "young woman"[almah], v43. In Song of Solomon 6:8 in
context, the "maidens' seem to be virgins seen in contrast to the
"queens" and "concubines". In Prov. 30:19 GNT "and a man and a woman
[almah] falling in love"; again, in Israelite law this would be
understood as a *virgin*; see both Ex.22:16 and Deut. 22:14ff. So,
indeed "almah" literally means "young woman"; but is usually
understood as meaning "virgin", especially when the context demands
it. In the context of Isaiah 7:14, what kind of sign is a young woman
giving birth? Happens all the time, but a virgin giving birth; that is
something totally shocking, unheard of, a miracle or sign indeed.
We know "virgin" is the proper translation of "almah" because the
*writer inspired by God* accepted and endorsed that Greek translation
in Matt. 1:22,23 above. Jesus quoted the Greek translation of Genesis
2:24 in Matt. 19:5. He endorsed the Greek translation's addition of
"twain", or "two", which is not in the Hebrew. Why? Probably to show
that a marriage is ONE man with ONE woman; no polygamy or polyandry.
Remember, the New Testament explains and expounds the Old Testament.
We know from OT usage of "almah" that it means "virgin"; and we have
the Holy Spirit inspired endorsement by Matthew 1:22,23. Now, this
leaves us a problem as to what this all means to Ahaz in his situation
at that time. This requires that you read Isaiah 7:1-17, the entire
section to get the picture. Remember, Israelites did not pick up a
book of Isaiah; the word of God was spoken, heard, visualized. This
passage is a scene of people conversing; so, envision the scene with
me. Ahaz, king of Judah, is in fear of the two enemy kings who
threaten him.
God sends Isaiah to Ahaz, specifically telling him to take along his
son, Shear-jasub. God tells Isaiah to tell Ahaz not to fear these two
blustering enemy kings. He sends assurance that the two enemy kings
will be destroyed. Ahaz is told to stand faithful. The LORD then
speaks directly to Ahaz telling him to ask a sign of Him, but Ahaz
says no. Isaiah in irritation exclaims to Ahaz that the Lord will
indeed give a sign; and the sign first mentioned is that the Virgin
will give birth. The Son born to the virgin is Immanuel, meaning "God
is with us". This promise let God's elect, the saints, know Judah was
not going to be destroyed until the Messiah comes; Immanuel, God is
with us! V15 describes this Virgin born Son growing in his youth,
Jesus eating curds and honey. In v16 we have a turning; Isaiah has
told Ahaz that the people would be safe til the Messiah arrives and
then he addresses the situation at hand. Remember, God specifically
told Isaiah to bring his son, so why? In v16 visualize Isaiah turning
toward his son, with his arm indicating his son: "Before that child
has learnt to reject evil and choose good, the territories of those
two kings before whom you now cringe in fear will lie desolate."
Revised English Bible.
There is NOT one prophecy here with two fulfillments! It is two
prophecies with two fulfilments. FIRST about the Virgin birth of our
Lord showing Jews would last until the promised Messiah will arrive:
SECOND, Isaiah turning to his own boy pointing to him indicating
"Before the/this/that child has learnt....." the enemy kings and
their lands will be gone. This is the answer, because why else would
it be so clearly stated in context that God told Isaiah to bring his
boy? It has a meaning and purpose to be included.
Gaius
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: Isaiah 7:14 - 'virgin' or 'young woman', or both? |
20 Mar 2007 05:17:18 PM |
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"Disciple Gaius" <again showing his abject ignorance > wrote in message ...
Isaiah 7:14 NRSV
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young
woman(r) is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him
Immanuel."
And that is the proper translation Almah is the Hebrew word for young woman.
Bethulah is the Hebrew word for virgin!!
Matthew 1:22,23 NRSV
"All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord
through the prophet: 'Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall name him Emmanuel,' which means, 'God is with us.'"
The NRSV is correct from a 'word for word', literal translation
perspective in the Hebrew. "The young woman" is the Hebrew 'almah' and
Strong's defines it as "a lass (as veiled or private)" and The
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew & English Lexicon gives: "young woman (ripe
sexually; maid or newly married)"
That is once again correct. The lexicons give you the proper meaning!!
.. BUT, this is where a "word for
word, literal translation" can be misleading. In Genesis 24 we have
the story of Rebekah, and we see the interchangeability of "virgin"
v16, with "young woman"[almah], v43. In Song of Solomon 6:8 in
context, the "maidens' seem to be virgins seen in contrast to the
"queens" and "concubines".
Seem to be??
In Prov. 30:19 GNT "and a man and a woman
[almah] falling in love"; again, in Israelite law this would be
understood as a *virgin*; see both Ex.22:16 and Deut. 22:14ff. So,
indeed "almah" literally means "young woman"; but is usually
understood as meaning "virgin", especially when the context demands
it. In the context of Isaiah 7:14, what kind of sign is a young woman
giving birth? Happens all the time, but a virgin giving birth; that is
something totally shocking, unheard of, a miracle or sign indeed.
And that is the joke of Gaius. He runs off to other examples in the old
testament, and uses words like seems, would be understood.
But the key is not his disinformation!!
Did you notice that the clown ignores the best reference.
ISAIAH HIMSELF.
See rather than run off to other books written by other authors, why not
compare to the actual author.
In the book of Isaiah he uses Almah (young woman) in Chapter 7: 14.
BUT - In the other places in Isaiah he uses the proper Hebrew woord for
virgin!! Refer to Isaiah 23: 12, 37: 22 and 47: 1.
What more proof do you need that Isaiah knew exactly what he was saying.
He uses the proper word for Virgin in three places.
But in Isaiah 7: 14 he carefully uses young woman!!
Why is that??
It's simple Isaiah knew nothing about virgin births. Virgin births is a
pagan concept!!
Do you need further proof that Gaius is an idiot??
Read further in Isaiah 7.
Verses 15 and 16 tells us s completely different story.
15 He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and
choose the right. 16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and
choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
Those two verses simply show us that the boy in Isaiah has nothing to do
with Jesus.
The boy in Isaiah will eat curds and honey, when he knows enough to reject
wrong and choose right.
AND BEFORE THAT BOY IN ISAIAH KNOWS ENOUGH TO REJECT THE WRONG AND CHOOSE
THE RIGHT, KING AHAZ'S ENEMIES WILL BE LAID WASTE.
King Ahaz's enemies were laid waste hundreds of years before Jesus was born.
It simply is not a prophecy about Jesus!!
We know "virgin" is the proper translation of "almah" because the
*writer inspired by God* accepted and endorsed that Greek translation
in Matt. 1:22,23 above.
What a joke. He has no argument and has to fall back on the inspired crap!!
If it was inspired how did they translate it wrong??
Stop and think people,
Jerome, who translated the Vulgate bible accepted the Hebrew scriptures as
accurate and rejected the Septuagint.
Here read it yourself!!
St. Jerome owes his place in the history of exegetical studies chiefly to
his revisions and translations of the Bible. Until about 391-2, he
considered the Septuagint translation as inspired. But the progress of his
Hebraistic studies and his intercourse with the rabbis made him give up that
idea, and he recognized as inspired the original text only.
We know from OT usage of "almah" that it means "virgin";
That is a lie!!
There is NOT one prophecy here with two fulfillments! It is two
prophecies with two fulfilments.
Oh, here it comes!! The lame old two prophecies argument.
That has been debunked so many times that only stupid fundies use it now
days!!
And Gaius like so many of his kind has failed miserably!!
I'll leave you with one more example.
Isaiah 7: 14 - "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the
young
woman(r) is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him
Immanuel."
Luke 1: 31 - 1And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth
a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
The clowns who made that idiotic claim that Isaiah is about Jesus couldn't
even get the names right.
That is why it is called apologetics.
Religionists apoligizing for insulting our intelligence!!
Smile.
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| User: "Phlogeus" |
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| Title: Re: Isaiah 7:14 - 'virgin' or 'young woman', or both? |
20 Mar 2007 09:14:50 PM |
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In article <460010bf.20780040@news.east.cox.net>, wrote:
There is NOT one prophecy here with two fulfillments! It is two
prophecies with two fulfilments. FIRST about the Virgin birth of our
Lord showing Jews would last until the promised Messiah will arrive:
SECOND, Isaiah turning to his own boy pointing to him indicating
"Before the/this/that child has learnt....." the enemy kings and
their lands will be gone. This is the answer, because why else would
it be so clearly stated in context that God told Isaiah to bring his
boy? It has a meaning and purpose to be included.
Gaius
Boy - another springtime nutter
What is going on?
Is it the water?
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