| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"家ndy" |
| Date: |
13 May 2007 09:23:16 AM |
| Object: |
Israel Will Be Restored |
Romans 11 clearly shows God will restore Israel when the
fulness of the Gentiles has come in. Throughout, this entire
chapter makes a stark contrast between the fulness of Israel,
and the fulness of the Gentiles. There is no way anyone who
allows the words of this chapter to sink in, can confuse
"Israel", with the "Gentiles" who are now being saved into the
church. Romans 11 blows preterist heresy away, so they try to
confuse Israel with the church, so as to deny any restoration
for Israel. This couldn't be a more clear and perfect
contradiction to the plain statements of Romans 11.
That the Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is not the church seems evident from the
following considerations:
1) At every point throughout Romans 11, the term "Israel" is
not only not a description of the church, or of Gentiles, but
is being contrasted to the Gentiles, and the church.
2) The "Israel" which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the one that is an enemy of the
gospel (11:28). This is not referring to a group of people
who are getting saved during the time of the fullness of the
Gentiles, but who are "enemies" concerning the gospel. When
you're an enemy of the gospel, you're not getting saved, and
this is the condition of this "Israel", during the time of the
fullness of the Gentiles.
3) It is for "your sakes" (Gentiles), that this "Israel", is
an enemy of the gospel (11:28b). If "Israel", here, were a
reference to all the church of both Jews and Gentiles who were
getting saved, not only would they not be the "enemies" of the
gospel, but they would not continue to be contrasted with the
"your sakes" who are being saved, in the very explanation of
why they are enemies of the gospel.
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
5) The Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the elect Israel which God made
irrevocable covenants, gifts and promises to, and this is
national Israel (Isa. 11:11-16; 45:17; 54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23;
30:17-22' 31:31-37; Jer 32:37-41; 33:24-26; Eze. 34:22-31;
37:21-28; 39:25-29; Eze. 40:1-48:35; Ho. 3:5; Joel 3:16-21;
Am. 9:14,15; Mic. 7:15-20; Zep. 3:12-20; Zec. 10:6-12; Rom.
11:26; Rev. 7:4). This salvation will be fulfilled, when the
deliverer comes out of Zion (Rom. 11:26; Ps. 14:7; Isa.
59:20), which will not occur till the fulness of the Gentiles
"be come in" (past).
6) The contention there can't still be Jews, Gentiles, or a
national Israel, since Christ made the church, ignores the
plain, obvious statement of Scripture: "Give none offence,
neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of
God". --1 Corinthians 10:32. While it is true there is
neither Jew nor Gentile within the church, because all have
been made one in Christ, this does not change the status of
people who are not members of the church. Jews, Gentiles, and
the Church, are still three distinct groups of people.
7) There are 24 elders (not 12), and two sets of inscriptions
in New Jerusalem, one for the tribes of Israel (Israel), and
one for the apostles (representative of the church):
Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates,
and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of
Israel:
Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and
in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
That both national Israel and the church are part of the same
vine of faith (Romans 11), doesn't do away with the fact there
remain two branches on the one vine.
Some preterists argue that the phrase "And so", in Romans
11:26, should be translated "thus", or "in this manner", and
therefore means the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, is the
manner in which "Israel" (which they claim means the Gentiles,
or the Church), shall be saved. This couldn't be a more clear
and perfect contradiction to everything Romans 11 says.
In Romans 11:26, neither the interpretation "And so", nor "in
this manner" presents a problem to the interpretation this is
"Israel", not the church. It does not say "in the manner of
the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, all Israel shall be
saved". It says, "And so all Israel shall be saved", "as it
is written". The deliverer shall come out of Zion, to save
Israel, when the fulness of the Gentiles "be come in" (past),
"as it is written", not "in the manner of the fulness of the
Gentiles coming in.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.
|
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| User: "David C" |
|
| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
13 May 2007 10:41:57 PM |
|
|
"家ndy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d27e439tg76hq3upedio274h8vbmfrre1h@pulpitfire.org...
Romans 11 clearly shows God will restore Israel when the
fulness of the Gentiles has come in. Throughout, this entire
chapter makes a stark contrast between the fulness of Israel,
and the fulness of the Gentiles. There is no way anyone who
allows the words of this chapter to sink in, can confuse
"Israel", with the "Gentiles" who are now being saved into the
church. Romans 11 blows preterist heresy away, so they try to
confuse Israel with the church, so as to deny any restoration
for Israel. This couldn't be a more clear and perfect
contradiction to the plain statements of Romans 11.
That the Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is not the church seems evident from the
following considerations:
1) At every point throughout Romans 11, the term "Israel" is
not only not a description of the church, or of Gentiles, but
is being contrasted to the Gentiles, and the church.
2) The "Israel" which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the one that is an enemy of the
gospel (11:28). This is not referring to a group of people
who are getting saved during the time of the fullness of the
Gentiles, but who are "enemies" concerning the gospel. When
you're an enemy of the gospel, you're not getting saved, and
this is the condition of this "Israel", during the time of the
fullness of the Gentiles.
3) It is for "your sakes" (Gentiles), that this "Israel", is
an enemy of the gospel (11:28b). If "Israel", here, were a
reference to all the church of both Jews and Gentiles who were
getting saved, not only would they not be the "enemies" of the
gospel, but they would not continue to be contrasted with the
"your sakes" who are being saved, in the very explanation of
why they are enemies of the gospel.
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
5) The Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the elect Israel which God made
irrevocable covenants, gifts and promises to, and this is
national Israel (Isa. 11:11-16; 45:17; 54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23;
30:17-22' 31:31-37; Jer 32:37-41; 33:24-26; Eze. 34:22-31;
37:21-28; 39:25-29; Eze. 40:1-48:35; Ho. 3:5; Joel 3:16-21;
Am. 9:14,15; Mic. 7:15-20; Zep. 3:12-20; Zec. 10:6-12; Rom.
11:26; Rev. 7:4). This salvation will be fulfilled, when the
deliverer comes out of Zion (Rom. 11:26; Ps. 14:7; Isa.
59:20), which will not occur till the fulness of the Gentiles
"be come in" (past).
6) The contention there can't still be Jews, Gentiles, or a
national Israel, since Christ made the church, ignores the
plain, obvious statement of Scripture: "Give none offence,
neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of
God". --1 Corinthians 10:32. While it is true there is
neither Jew nor Gentile within the church, because all have
been made one in Christ, this does not change the status of
people who are not members of the church. Jews, Gentiles, and
the Church, are still three distinct groups of people.
7) There are 24 elders (not 12), and two sets of inscriptions
in New Jerusalem, one for the tribes of Israel (Israel), and
one for the apostles (representative of the church):
Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates,
and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of
Israel:
Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and
in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
That both national Israel and the church are part of the same
vine of faith (Romans 11), doesn't do away with the fact there
remain two branches on the one vine.
Some preterists argue that the phrase "And so", in Romans
11:26, should be translated "thus", or "in this manner", and
therefore means the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, is the
manner in which "Israel" (which they claim means the Gentiles,
or the Church), shall be saved. This couldn't be a more clear
and perfect contradiction to everything Romans 11 says.
In Romans 11:26, neither the interpretation "And so", nor "in
this manner" presents a problem to the interpretation this is
"Israel", not the church. It does not say "in the manner of
the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, all Israel shall be
saved". It says, "And so all Israel shall be saved", "as it
is written". The deliverer shall come out of Zion, to save
Israel, when the fulness of the Gentiles "be come in" (past),
"as it is written", not "in the manner of the fulness of the
Gentiles coming in.
Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: In context, in Romans 11, the
word "Israel" means (practicing) Jews.
Why, in paragraph 5) above, do you refer to verses from the Tanach? That's
kind of unusual for a Christian. It's rather stupid since the NT claims that
all OT prophecies concerning Messiah were fulfilled.
Are you claiming that Romans 11 predicts a second comong? It does not.
You're obssessed with this second coming theory, are you not? It will never
happen, not on this planet.
--
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
16 May 2007 10:31:38 AM |
|
|
"David C" <LTDCaplan@newsnet.edu> wrote in message
news:4647ce25$0$20193$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
"家ndy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d27e439tg76hq3upedio274h8vbmfrre1h@pulpitfire.org...
Romans 11 clearly shows God will restore Israel when the
fulness of the Gentiles has come in. Throughout, this entire
chapter makes a stark contrast between the fulness of Israel,
and the fulness of the Gentiles. There is no way anyone who
allows the words of this chapter to sink in, can confuse
"Israel", with the "Gentiles" who are now being saved into the
church. Romans 11 blows preterist heresy away, so they try to
confuse Israel with the church, so as to deny any restoration
for Israel. This couldn't be a more clear and perfect
contradiction to the plain statements of Romans 11.
That the Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is not the church seems evident from the
following considerations:
1) At every point throughout Romans 11, the term "Israel" is
not only not a description of the church, or of Gentiles, but
is being contrasted to the Gentiles, and the church.
2) The "Israel" which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the one that is an enemy of the
gospel (11:28). This is not referring to a group of people
who are getting saved during the time of the fullness of the
Gentiles, but who are "enemies" concerning the gospel. When
you're an enemy of the gospel, you're not getting saved, and
this is the condition of this "Israel", during the time of the
fullness of the Gentiles.
3) It is for "your sakes" (Gentiles), that this "Israel", is
an enemy of the gospel (11:28b). If "Israel", here, were a
reference to all the church of both Jews and Gentiles who were
getting saved, not only would they not be the "enemies" of the
gospel, but they would not continue to be contrasted with the
"your sakes" who are being saved, in the very explanation of
why they are enemies of the gospel.
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
5) The Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the elect Israel which God made
irrevocable covenants, gifts and promises to, and this is
national Israel (Isa. 11:11-16; 45:17; 54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23;
30:17-22' 31:31-37; Jer 32:37-41; 33:24-26; Eze. 34:22-31;
37:21-28; 39:25-29; Eze. 40:1-48:35; Ho. 3:5; Joel 3:16-21;
Am. 9:14,15; Mic. 7:15-20; Zep. 3:12-20; Zec. 10:6-12; Rom.
11:26; Rev. 7:4). This salvation will be fulfilled, when the
deliverer comes out of Zion (Rom. 11:26; Ps. 14:7; Isa.
59:20), which will not occur till the fulness of the Gentiles
"be come in" (past).
6) The contention there can't still be Jews, Gentiles, or a
national Israel, since Christ made the church, ignores the
plain, obvious statement of Scripture: "Give none offence,
neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of
God". --1 Corinthians 10:32. While it is true there is
neither Jew nor Gentile within the church, because all have
been made one in Christ, this does not change the status of
people who are not members of the church. Jews, Gentiles, and
the Church, are still three distinct groups of people.
7) There are 24 elders (not 12), and two sets of inscriptions
in New Jerusalem, one for the tribes of Israel (Israel), and
one for the apostles (representative of the church):
Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates,
and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of
Israel:
Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and
in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
That both national Israel and the church are part of the same
vine of faith (Romans 11), doesn't do away with the fact there
remain two branches on the one vine.
Some preterists argue that the phrase "And so", in Romans
11:26, should be translated "thus", or "in this manner", and
therefore means the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, is the
manner in which "Israel" (which they claim means the Gentiles,
or the Church), shall be saved. This couldn't be a more clear
and perfect contradiction to everything Romans 11 says.
In Romans 11:26, neither the interpretation "And so", nor "in
this manner" presents a problem to the interpretation this is
"Israel", not the church. It does not say "in the manner of
the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, all Israel shall be
saved". It says, "And so all Israel shall be saved", "as it
is written". The deliverer shall come out of Zion, to save
Israel, when the fulness of the Gentiles "be come in" (past),
"as it is written", not "in the manner of the fulness of the
Gentiles coming in.
Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: In context, in Romans 11, the
word "Israel" means (practicing) Jews.
Why, in paragraph 5) above, do you refer to verses from the Tanach? That's
kind of unusual for a Christian. It's rather stupid since the NT claims
that
all OT prophecies concerning Messiah were fulfilled.
Are you claiming that Romans 11 predicts a second comong? It does not.
You're obssessed with this second coming theory, are you not? It will
never
happen, not on this planet.
--
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
16 May 2007 10:40:21 AM |
|
|
"David C" <LTDCaplan@newsnet.edu> wrote in message
news:4647ce25$0$20193$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
"家ndy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d27e439tg76hq3upedio274h8vbmfrre1h@pulpitfire.org...
Romans 11 clearly shows God will restore Israel when the
fulness of the Gentiles has come in. Throughout, this entire
chapter makes a stark contrast between the fulness of Israel,
and the fulness of the Gentiles. There is no way anyone who
allows the words of this chapter to sink in, can confuse
"Israel", with the "Gentiles" who are now being saved into the
church. Romans 11 blows preterist heresy away, so they try to
confuse Israel with the church, so as to deny any restoration
for Israel. This couldn't be a more clear and perfect
contradiction to the plain statements of Romans 11.
That the Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is not the church seems evident from the
following considerations:
1) At every point throughout Romans 11, the term "Israel" is
not only not a description of the church, or of Gentiles, but
is being contrasted to the Gentiles, and the church.
2) The "Israel" which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the one that is an enemy of the
gospel (11:28). This is not referring to a group of people
who are getting saved during the time of the fullness of the
Gentiles, but who are "enemies" concerning the gospel. When
you're an enemy of the gospel, you're not getting saved, and
this is the condition of this "Israel", during the time of the
fullness of the Gentiles.
3) It is for "your sakes" (Gentiles), that this "Israel", is
an enemy of the gospel (11:28b). If "Israel", here, were a
reference to all the church of both Jews and Gentiles who were
getting saved, not only would they not be the "enemies" of the
gospel, but they would not continue to be contrasted with the
"your sakes" who are being saved, in the very explanation of
why they are enemies of the gospel.
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
5) The Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the elect Israel which God made
irrevocable covenants, gifts and promises to, and this is
national Israel (Isa. 11:11-16; 45:17; 54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23;
30:17-22' 31:31-37; Jer 32:37-41; 33:24-26; Eze. 34:22-31;
37:21-28; 39:25-29; Eze. 40:1-48:35; Ho. 3:5; Joel 3:16-21;
Am. 9:14,15; Mic. 7:15-20; Zep. 3:12-20; Zec. 10:6-12; Rom.
11:26; Rev. 7:4). This salvation will be fulfilled, when the
deliverer comes out of Zion (Rom. 11:26; Ps. 14:7; Isa.
59:20), which will not occur till the fulness of the Gentiles
"be come in" (past).
6) The contention there can't still be Jews, Gentiles, or a
national Israel, since Christ made the church, ignores the
plain, obvious statement of Scripture: "Give none offence,
neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of
God". --1 Corinthians 10:32. While it is true there is
neither Jew nor Gentile within the church, because all have
been made one in Christ, this does not change the status of
people who are not members of the church. Jews, Gentiles, and
the Church, are still three distinct groups of people.
7) There are 24 elders (not 12), and two sets of inscriptions
in New Jerusalem, one for the tribes of Israel (Israel), and
one for the apostles (representative of the church):
Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates,
and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of
Israel:
Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and
in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
That both national Israel and the church are part of the same
vine of faith (Romans 11), doesn't do away with the fact there
remain two branches on the one vine.
Some preterists argue that the phrase "And so", in Romans
11:26, should be translated "thus", or "in this manner", and
therefore means the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, is the
manner in which "Israel" (which they claim means the Gentiles,
or the Church), shall be saved. This couldn't be a more clear
and perfect contradiction to everything Romans 11 says.
In Romans 11:26, neither the interpretation "And so", nor "in
this manner" presents a problem to the interpretation this is
"Israel", not the church. It does not say "in the manner of
the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, all Israel shall be
saved". It says, "And so all Israel shall be saved", "as it
is written". The deliverer shall come out of Zion, to save
Israel, when the fulness of the Gentiles "be come in" (past),
"as it is written", not "in the manner of the fulness of the
Gentiles coming in.
Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: In context, in Romans 11, the
word "Israel" means (practicing) Jews.
Why, in paragraph 5) above, do you refer to verses from the Tanach? That's
kind of unusual for a Christian. It's rather stupid since the NT claims
that
all OT prophecies concerning Messiah were fulfilled.
Are you claiming that Romans 11 predicts a second comong? It does not.
You're obssessed with this second coming theory, are you not? It will
never
happen, not on this planet.
Duh..... Perhaps He was citing the Tanakh verses to confirm that Rm 11
promises the salvation of Israel.
Duh...... It is the second coming for the Day of the Lord that Israel
expected and still awaits. It's the first coming they weren't expecting.
They were blinded to the first coming, missing its prophesy in the Tanakh.
His,
--
http://www.geocities.com/alphadiego66medina@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
.
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| User: "David C" |
|
| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
17 May 2007 09:10:59 PM |
|
|
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover@email.com> wrote in message
news:FBF2i.2878$y_7.803@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
"David C" <LTDCaplan@newsnet.edu> wrote in message
news:4647ce25$0$20193$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: In context, in Romans 11,
the
word "Israel" means (practicing) Jews.
Why, in paragraph 5) above, do you refer to verses from the Tanach?
That's
kind of unusual for a Christian. It's rather stupid since the NT claims
that
all OT prophecies concerning Messiah were fulfilled.
Are you claiming that Romans 11 predicts a second coming? It does not.
You're obssessed with this second coming theory, are you not? It will
never
happen, not on this planet.
Duh..... Perhaps He was citing the Tanakh verses to confirm that Rm 11
promises the salvation of Israel.
What is there to salvage? :-)
Duh...... It is the second coming for the Day of the Lord that Israel
expected and still awaits. It's the first coming they weren't expecting.
They were blinded to the first coming, missing its prophesy in the Tanakh.
Jews will wait for their custom made king for years to come and to no avail.
His,
--
http://www.geocities.com/alphadiego66medina@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mistylien" |
|
| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
19 May 2007 03:04:42 AM |
|
|
"David C" <LTDCaplan@newsnet.edu> wrote in message
news:464cfecf$0$16288$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover@email.com> wrote in message
news:FBF2i.2878$y_7.803@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
"David C" <LTDCaplan@newsnet.edu> wrote in message
news:4647ce25$0$20193$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: In context, in Romans 11, the
word "Israel" means (practicing) Jews.
Why, in paragraph 5) above, do you refer to verses from the Tanach? That's
kind of unusual for a Christian. It's rather stupid since the NT claims
that
all OT prophecies concerning Messiah were fulfilled.
Are you claiming that Romans 11 predicts a second coming? It does not.
You're obssessed with this second coming theory, are you not? It will
never
happen, not on this planet.
Duh..... Perhaps He was citing the Tanakh verses to confirm that Rm 11
promises the salvation of Israel.
What is there to salvage? :-)
Duh...... It is the second coming for the Day of the Lord that Israel
expected and still awaits. It's the first coming they weren't expecting.
They were blinded to the first coming, missing its prophesy in the Tanakh.
Jews will wait for their custom made king for years to come and to no avail.
Yes, and as long as they keep on rejecting their Messiah they shall continue
to hope in vein
However when God chooses the time they will finally recognize they
still can accept Him as presented in the New Testament (Witness)
The too like the Gentiles must except him in Spiritual Faith.
One at a time.
M,
His,
--
http://www.geocities.com/alphadiego66medina@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
13 May 2007 11:03:30 AM |
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家ndy wrote:
<snip>
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
Yes, Galatians 6:16 refers to the Church as the "Israel of God". This
Israel includes Gentile believers who are 'grafted in' to the good olive
of Romans 11.
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
If circumcision avails nothing, then the same applies to uncircumcision.
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same
Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is
neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
So the 'Israel of God' of Galatians 6:16 includes the Gentiles who believe.
Doug
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=AEandy?=" |
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| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
13 May 2007 11:19:35 AM |
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On 5/13/2007 11:03 AM, Doug wrote:
家ndy wrote:
<snip>
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
Yes, Galatians 6:16 refers to the Church as the "Israel of God". This
Israel includes Gentile believers who are 'grafted in' to the good olive
of Romans 11.
See below:
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
If circumcision avails nothing, then the same applies to uncircumcision.
Correct: Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision
availeth any
thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same
Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
That refers to those who are within the church. There are still
three categories
of people, including those who are not:
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor
to the Gentiles,
nor to the church of God:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is
neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
ibid. This refers to those who are within the church, not
everyone, including
those who are not.
So the 'Israel of God' of Galatians 6:16 includes the Gentiles who believe.
The passage neither says nor necessitates that. It doesn't say
peace be on
those who walk according to the rule circumcision avails nothing
"which is" the
Israel of God, but peace on them, "AND" (kai) peace on the Israel
of God.
Although Paul just finished bashing Jewish judaizers in this
epistle, he shows he
is not anti-semetic, and still wishes peace on those of Israel
who are true believers.
"Israel" refers to "Israel", not the church.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
13 May 2007 12:03:15 PM |
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家ndy wrote:
On 5/13/2007 11:03 AM, Doug wrote:
家ndy wrote:
<snip>
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
Yes, Galatians 6:16 refers to the Church as the "Israel of God". This
Israel includes Gentile believers who are 'grafted in' to the good
olive of Romans 11.
See below:
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
If circumcision avails nothing, then the same applies to uncircumcision.
Correct: Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision
availeth any
thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same
Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
That refers to those who are within the church. There are still three
categories
of people, including those who are not:
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the
Gentiles,
nor to the church of God:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there
is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
ibid. This refers to those who are within the church, not everyone,
including
those who are not.
So the 'Israel of God' of Galatians 6:16 includes the Gentiles who
believe.
The passage neither says nor necessitates that. It doesn't say peace be on
those who walk according to the rule circumcision avails nothing "which
is" the
Israel of God, but peace on them, "AND" (kai) peace on the Israel of God.
The New International Version has:
Galatians 6:16
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.
Although Paul just finished bashing Jewish judaizers in this epistle, he
shows he
is not anti-semetic, and still wishes peace on those of Israel who are
true believers.
"Israel" refers to "Israel", not the church.
The Church is the 'Israel of God' in Galatians 6:16 and is also called
the 'Jerusalem which is above', 'a holy temple' etc.
Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Ephesians 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy
temple in the Lord:
Paul even says believers have been 'circumcised' with "the circumcision
made without hands".
Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without
hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ:
Doug
.
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=AEandy?=" |
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| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
13 May 2007 12:22:47 PM |
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On 5/13/2007 12:03 PM, Doug wrote:
家ndy wrote:
On 5/13/2007 11:03 AM, Doug wrote:
家ndy wrote:
<snip>
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
Yes, Galatians 6:16 refers to the Church as the "Israel of God". This
Israel includes Gentile believers who are 'grafted in' to the good
olive of Romans 11.
See below:
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
If circumcision avails nothing, then the same applies to uncircumcision.
Correct: Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision
availeth any
thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the
same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
That refers to those who are within the church. There are still three
categories
of people, including those who are not:
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to
the Gentiles,
nor to the church of God:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there
is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
ibid. This refers to those who are within the church, not everyone,
including
those who are not.
So the 'Israel of God' of Galatians 6:16 includes the Gentiles who
believe.
The passage neither says nor necessitates that. It doesn't say peace
be on
those who walk according to the rule circumcision avails nothing
"which is" the
Israel of God, but peace on them, "AND" (kai) peace on the Israel of God.
The New International Version has:
Galatians 6:16
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.
Peace on "all", "even" Israel, *still* doesn't say or necessitate
the meaning
peace on all "which is" Israel. That is at best a possible
interpretation, but
is not the normal or more likely understanding, given the use of
"kai", and the
context. See below:
Although Paul just finished bashing Jewish judaizers in this epistle,
he shows he
is not anti-semetic, and still wishes peace on those of Israel who are
true believers.
"Israel" refers to "Israel", not the church.
The Church is the 'Israel of God' in Galatians 6:16 and is also called
the 'Jerusalem which is above', 'a holy temple' etc.
Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Ephesians 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy
temple in the Lord:
Paul even says believers have been 'circumcised' with "the circumcision
made without hands".
Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without
hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ:
Doug
None of the verses you quoted says or necessitates "Israel"
refers to the church. "Israel" means "Israel".
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.
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| User: "Ronald More-More Moshki" |
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| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
13 May 2007 12:44:36 PM |
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On May 13, 1:22 pm, =AEandy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/13/2007 12:03 PM, Doug wrote:
=AEandy wrote:
On 5/13/2007 11:03 AM, Doug wrote:
=AEandy wrote:
<snip>
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
Yes, Galatians 6:16 refers to the Church as the "Israel of God". This
Israel includes Gentile believers who are 'grafted in' to the good
olive of Romans 11.
See below:
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai =3D "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing. =20
If circumcision avails nothing, then the same applies to uncircumcisi=
on.
Correct: Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision
availeth any
thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the
same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
That refers to those who are within the church. There are still three
categories
of people, including those who are not:
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to
the Gentiles,
nor to the church of God:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there
is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
ibid. This refers to those who are within the church, not everyone,
including
those who are not.
So the 'Israel of God' of Galatians 6:16 includes the Gentiles who
believe.
The passage neither says nor necessitates that. It doesn't say peace
be on
those who walk according to the rule circumcision avails nothing
"which is" the
Israel of God, but peace on them, "AND" (kai) peace on the Israel of G=
od.
The New International Version has:
Galatians 6:16
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.
Peace on "all", "even" Israel, *still* doesn't say or necessitate
the meaning
peace on all "which is" Israel. That is at best a possible
interpretation, but
is not the normal or more likely understanding, given the use of
"kai", and the
context. See below:
Although Paul just finished bashing Jewish judaizers in this epistle,
he shows he
is not anti-semetic, and still wishes peace on those of Israel who are
true believers.
"Israel" refers to "Israel", not the church.
The Church is the 'Israel of God' in Galatians 6:16 and is also called
the 'Jerusalem which is above', 'a holy temple' etc.
Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Ephesians 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy
temple in the Lord:
Paul even says believers have been 'circumcised' with "the circumcision
made without hands".
Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without
hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ:
Doug
None of the verses you quoted says or necessitates "Israel"
refers to the church. "Israel" means "Israel".
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).- Hide quoted=
text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Mankind created gods or was it the reverse?
Always go with "reverse"; it's called the 'that-way way'.
The right way.
.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Israel Will Be Restored |
13 May 2007 01:22:49 PM |
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家ndy wrote:
On 5/13/2007 12:03 PM, Doug wrote:
家ndy wrote:
On 5/13/2007 11:03 AM, Doug wrote:
家ndy wrote:
<snip>
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
Yes, Galatians 6:16 refers to the Church as the "Israel of God".
This Israel includes Gentile believers who are 'grafted in' to the
good olive of Romans 11.
See below:
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
If circumcision avails nothing, then the same applies to
uncircumcision.
Correct: Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision
availeth any
thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the
same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
That refers to those who are within the church. There are still
three categories
of people, including those who are not:
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to
the Gentiles,
nor to the church of God:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
ibid. This refers to those who are within the church, not everyone,
including
those who are not.
So the 'Israel of God' of Galatians 6:16 includes the Gentiles who
believe.
The passage neither says nor necessitates that. It doesn't say peace
be on
those who walk according to the rule circumcision avails nothing
"which is" the
Israel of God, but peace on them, "AND" (kai) peace on the Israel of
God.
The New International Version has:
Galatians 6:16
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.
Peace on "all", "even" Israel, *still* doesn't say or necessitate the
meaning
peace on all "which is" Israel. That is at best a possible
interpretation, but
is not the normal or more likely understanding, given the use of "kai",
and the
context. See below:
It should propably be read along with the previous verse, to get the sense.
Galatians 6:15-16
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means
anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who
follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.
This makes Paul's reference to 'Israel of God' much clearer. It refers
those who are 'in Christ Jesus'.
Doug
Although Paul just finished bashing Jewish judaizers in this epistle,
he shows he
is not anti-semetic, and still wishes peace on those of Israel who
are true believers.
"Israel" refers to "Israel", not the church.
The Church is the 'Israel of God' in Galatians 6:16 and is also called
the 'Jerusalem which is above', 'a holy temple' etc.
Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Ephesians 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy
temple in the Lord:
Paul even says believers have been 'circumcised' with "the
circumcision made without hands".
Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without
hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ:
Doug
None of the verses you quoted says or necessitates "Israel"
refers to the church. "Israel" means "Israel".
.
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