| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
| Date: |
04 Nov 2006 12:25:33 AM |
| Object: |
Jesus as God, pt 14 |
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
John 14:6-9
"6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have
known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen
him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it
sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath
seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
Notes: What man (only) claims to be the reflection of the Father?
What man has the authority to make Himself the only way to the Father
(not his message but Himself)? What man claims to BE the way, truth,
and life? Who but God can decide who gets to Himself? Has any prophet
in history made such claims?
Jesus is God.
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
04 Nov 2006 03:16:54 AM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162621533.834809.275590@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
John 14:6-9
"6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have
known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen
him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it
sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath
seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
Notes: What man (only) claims to be the reflection of the Father?
What man has the authority to make Himself the only way to the Father
(not his message but Himself)? What man claims to BE the way, truth,
and life? Who but God can decide who gets to Himself? Has any prophet
in history made such claims?
Jesus is God.
In another of Jesus' many paradoxes, what man claims that "no man has seen
God," then claims that whoever has seen Him "has seen the Father," then
claims that He and the Father are One and the same?
And how can that be?
Hint: "That which has been is now, and that which is to be has already
become, and God requires that which is past."
(But, in all probability, you'll never get it.)
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
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| User: "Pax" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
04 Nov 2006 02:13:54 PM |
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"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <Yeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1uudnfDcEPcbx9HYnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162621533.834809.275590@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
John 14:6-9
"6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have
known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen
him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it
sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath
seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
Notes: What man (only) claims to be the reflection of the Father?
What man has the authority to make Himself the only way to the Father
(not his message but Himself)? What man claims to BE the way, truth,
and life? Who but God can decide who gets to Himself? Has any prophet
in history made such claims?
Jesus is God.
In another of Jesus' many paradoxes, what man claims that "no man has seen
God," then claims that whoever has seen Him "has seen the Father," then
claims that He and the Father are One and the same?
And how can that be?
Hint: "That which has been is now, and that which is to be has already
become, and God requires that which is past."
(But, in all probability, you'll never get it.)
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
I followed your link and read the excerpt. You've made an impression on me.
As far as "what man...?" The Son of Man.
John 14:
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to
the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my
Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among
you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can
you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father,
and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own.
Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me
when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least
believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."
God is now... "I Am."
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say
to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born,
I am!"
(The Jews listening understood very clearly what Jesus was saying there, and
tried to stone Him for saying it.)
Jesus has always ruled.
John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that
life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the
darkness has not understood it.
John 17:
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the
time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you
granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all
those you have given him."
Faith was given to those chosen from before the world was formed.
Ephesians 1:
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and
blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his
sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- 6 to
the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he
loves.
Love is also past... and present, and future. Simply: Love is now. The
Kingdom of God is now.
Matt 22:
31 "But about the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said
to you, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of
Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Jesus is Lord - Pax
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
04 Nov 2006 06:03:06 AM |
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"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <Yeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote:
And how can that be?
For he *is* the Kwisatz Haderach?
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
10 Dec 2006 02:51:54 PM |
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H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162621533.834809.275590@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
John 14:6-9
"6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have
known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen
him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it
sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath
seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
Notes: What man (only) claims to be the reflection of the Father?
What man has the authority to make Himself the only way to the Father
(not his message but Himself)? What man claims to BE the way, truth,
and life? Who but God can decide who gets to Himself? Has any prophet
in history made such claims?
Jesus is God.
In another of Jesus' many paradoxes, what man claims that "no man has seen
God," then claims that whoever has seen Him "has seen the Father," then
claims that He and the Father are One and the same?
And how can that be?
Hint: "That which has been is now, and that which is to be has already
become, and God requires that which is past."
(But, in all probability, you'll never get it.)
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
Ike,
I just wanted to tell you that I forgive you. I feel that you, out of
whatever reason, have had a vendetta against me. While we have a
difference of opinion, I've tried to "agree to disagree" many times
with you, only to have you join my threads...not to discuss the post
but to try to attack or find fault with me. You've attacked my family
and accussed me of lying. You've attacked my school. You've called me
a cultists, even as you reject even your own denomination's views in
favor of your own (the definition of a cult). Finally, I took
personally that you, with no Bible education, felt qualified to say
that my research (as that of a Bible degreed graduate) is wrong.
I forgive you for all of the above (even as I know you will likely
reject that), and I apologize for being a poor example of Christ's love
to you. I know you will continue to attack me and be a poor example of
Christ's love to me, but I will not join your anger or bitterness and
release you from any wrong you have done me.
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
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| User: "Pax" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
04 Nov 2006 02:16:12 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162621533.834809.275590@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
John 14:6-9
"6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have
known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen
him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it
sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath
seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
Notes: What man (only) claims to be the reflection of the Father?
What man has the authority to make Himself the only way to the Father
(not his message but Himself)? What man claims to BE the way, truth,
and life? Who but God can decide who gets to Himself? Has any prophet
in history made such claims?
Jesus is God.
Yes, He is.
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
Jesus is Lord - Pax
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| User: "Mary Walker" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
04 Nov 2006 07:28:01 AM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162621533.834809.275590@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
Did Jesus really say that? If so, who cares. Jesus was just some bloke.
Live with it.
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| User: "Wild Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
04 Nov 2006 08:26:47 AM |
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"Mary Walker" <mary@walker.com> wrote in message
news:454c955b$1_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162621533.834809.275590@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
Did Jesus really say that? If so, who cares. Jesus was just some bloke.
Live with it.
Well, Kenny has a nasty habit of reading the scribblings and fictional
quotes of ancient myth-makers and accepting such as literal truths or fact.
Shalom,
Bill
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
09 Nov 2006 09:57:57 AM |
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Wild Bill wrote:
"Mary Walker" <mary@walker.com> wrote in message
news:454c955b$1_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162621533.834809.275590@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
Did Jesus really say that? If so, who cares. Jesus was just some bloke.
Live with it.
Well, Kenny has a nasty habit of reading the scribblings and fictional
quotes of ancient myth-makers and accepting such as literal truths or fact.
Shalom,
Bill
Reply:
Jesus was more a mental contruct (myth) than a historical figure. In
New Testament
studies these days you often find the word "tendentious." I.e. the
gospels, early Christian
writings were written to support a certain purpose. Some would, in the
disparaging mode,
say propaganda.
The New Testament gospels and writings of Paul have definite aims -
1. Tame the Old Testament, Jewish, concept of the coming Messiah.
Jesus is not the
fulfillment of the Old Testament war lord savior of Israel. He is a
meeker and milder version
(antithesis) of the Davidic King as set forth in Psalm 2. Thus, St.
Paul in his enthusiasm
for the new Messiah (Jesus) had a very difficult task when he roamed
the Roman Empire
and, at most every new city he visited, went to the synagogue to
convert Jews to
the new Messiah. Paul wondered why he was totally unsuccessful!!?? Of
coarse, The response from the gentiles was more positive.
The writers of Mark (foundational gospel), Luke and Matthew bent over
backwards to
project the new Messiah Jesus in terms tolerable to Rome. It was
truly kiss up time as regards Rome who would kill hundreds of thousands
of Palestine Jews in the next hundred years. Jew led by fanatics who
thought God was on their side to the point a thousand of them could
dream to take on twelve Roman divisions. I exaggerate. But not much.
So, a lot of the New Testament is dedicated to making it clear Jesus'
death resulted from the envy and cruel treachery of the Jews or Jewish
leadership. And though Jesus hardly uttered a word beyond his Jewish
tradition, he is also projected as the arch-enemy of Jewish legalism
and the Pharisees. This is very effective Christian propaganda but
history or fact it is not. (The early followers of Jesus did mix it up
with the Pharisees but that was years after Jesus had died)
2. To project the new Messiah in terms of the hero-god/man-god at
the heart of the
mystery religions of the Roman Empire, first century. Thus, the
suggestion Jesus was born of a virgin, a worker of miracles, and, most
important, involved in a dying and rising
scenario. Or, shedding his blood those identifying with his person and
cause
are washed in the blood and initated into mysteries (union or communion
with God) that sound to me a lot like the real goal for all converts to
the Dionysius cult. I mean the Dionysius god-man taken as the god of
the grape (wine) in ancient times. To me it's no wonder it's our
Jesus is supremely manifested in the glorious elevation of the Mass
(Cup). even to this very day.
Also, it's no accident that Paul's home town, Tarsus, was a prominent
center of the Mystery
Religions. And Paul wrote his letters in Greek. Not Aramaic and not
Hebrew.
All this, to me, says nada to detract or diminish the religious
effectiveness of the religion
centered on Jesus the Messiah. In fact, it merely becomes a more
potent myth whereby
folk still can find union with the Ground of all Being. More potent
because it is now understood as a very clever merger of the Jewish and
Greek/Egyptian mystery religions.
Plus, a lot of Greek philosophy and Platonic thinking. Like 3 in 1
oil. Very handy.
It's the end of the literal approach to scripture. And, dear Pilgrim,
won't you be glad to get that stupefying burden off your back.
Further reading Tom Harpur's The Pagan Christ
Tom, on his official web site states
From time to time some of you have written out of concern over the
less-than-Christian attacks on my book by an American self-appointed
guardian of extreme orthodoxy, James Patrick Holding. He runs an online
"apologetics ministry" - www.tektonics.org - in the course of which he
bitterly assails any and all scholars who dare to go against his
literalist, fundamentalist line. He solicits and gains funds from those
of his same mind-set in the USA and Canada. Readers should be aware
that Holding does not use his real name. His real name is Robert Turkel
and anyone who takes the trouble to Google Turkel will quickly realize
why I have never attempted to respond to his particular brand of
criticism. For a polite, well- reasoned but devastating critique of
Turkel's online book about the faith see the website of New Testament
professor Robert Price of Florida. He is the author of the stunning
book, Deconstructing Jesus.
It would also be more - than - profitable to peruse Price's The
Incredible Shrinking Son of Man
Robert Price has been described as "a heavyweight of New Testament
studies." So is Tom.
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
04 Nov 2006 05:55:01 AM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Notes: What man (only) claims to be the reflection of the Father?
Well, if you look at these newsgroups, or at the real world, for that
matter, you'll find many of them. Some give themselves fancy titles or
screen names to express just how holy and righteous they are.
What man has the authority to make Himself the only way to the Father
(not his message but Himself)?
Well, that depends whether you're asking what man actually *has* such
authority; or what man *claims* such authority. If the latter, then the
answer is similar to the huge number of people referred to in the answer
above. If the former, then it's more difficult - especially since we only
have Jesus' word (and only his quoted word, at that) that he himself had
such authority. If he did not have it, then of course he falls into that
vast number of humans who falsely claim to be the only way to God.
Who but God can decide who gets to Himself?
Again, that would depend who you listen to. Try a sampling of the various
so-called pastors and reverends and fathers and suchlike here on these
groups: you'll find each one implying that he alone knows who can and who
can't get to God.
Jesus is God.
The other alternative is that Jesus was just another charlatan, just like
all the supposed holy and righteous people on these groups.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
05 Nov 2006 09:24:42 PM |
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Midwinter wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Notes: What man (only) claims to be the reflection of the Father?
Well, if you look at these newsgroups, or at the real world, for that
matter, you'll find many of them. Some give themselves fancy titles or
screen names to express just how holy and righteous they are.
What man has the authority to make Himself the only way to the Father
(not his message but Himself)?
Well, that depends whether you're asking what man actually *has* such
authority; or what man *claims* such authority. If the latter, then the
answer is similar to the huge number of people referred to in the answer
above. If the former, then it's more difficult - especially since we only
have Jesus' word (and only his quoted word, at that) that he himself had
such authority. If he did not have it, then of course he falls into that
vast number of humans who falsely claim to be the only way to God.
Who but God can decide who gets to Himself?
Again, that would depend who you listen to. Try a sampling of the various
so-called pastors and reverends and fathers and suchlike here on these
groups: you'll find each one implying that he alone knows who can and who
can't get to God.
Jesus is God.
The other alternative is that Jesus was just another charlatan, just like
all the supposed holy and righteous people on these groups.
Yes, indeed. If Jesus is not who He said He is, Christians are still
sinners without hope like the rest and He deserved the charge of
Blasphemy that killed him. On the other hand, there is the miracles,
the resurrection, and the Holy Spirit claiming to be Jesus. What if He
WAS in fact who He said?
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
06 Nov 2006 02:33:41 AM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, indeed. If Jesus is not who He said He is, Christians are still
sinners without hope like the rest
Alternatively, if Jesus was not who he said he was, then sin probably
isn't relevant.
On the other hand, there is the miracles,
the resurrection, and the Holy Spirit claiming to be Jesus. What if He
WAS in fact who He said?
Then he was who he said. But I don't consider there's any evidence to
accept this point of view, or even the view that we know what Jesus
claimed to be. If he existed at all, we've no reason to assume that what
we're looking at in the Bible is an accurate record of what he said, any
more than Genesis is an accurate account of the creation of the world.
That the Bible talks about miracles might show us that miracles occurred -
or it might show us that we don't understand exactly what Jesus was doing.
There's likely to be a reason many of his 'miracles' replicated events
from the Old Testament - and it may well be more to do with symbolism for
the benefit of his contemporaries than proof of his divinity for people
living two thousands years down the line.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
06 Nov 2006 03:00:28 PM |
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Midwinter wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, indeed. If Jesus is not who He said He is, Christians are still
sinners without hope like the rest
Alternatively, if Jesus was not who he said he was, then sin probably
isn't relevant.
On the other hand, there is the miracles,
the resurrection, and the Holy Spirit claiming to be Jesus. What if He
WAS in fact who He said?
Then he was who he said. But I don't consider there's any evidence to
accept this point of view, or even the view that we know what Jesus
claimed to be. If he existed at all, we've no reason to assume that what
we're looking at in the Bible is an accurate record of what he said, any
more than Genesis is an accurate account of the creation of the world.
That the Bible talks about miracles might show us that miracles occurred -
or it might show us that we don't understand exactly what Jesus was doing.
There's likely to be a reason many of his 'miracles' replicated events
from the Old Testament - and it may well be more to do with symbolism for
the benefit of his contemporaries than proof of his divinity for people
living two thousands years down the line.
So, you reject the Illiad and other works of that age? BTW, there's
less source material and textual evidence for that work, Josephus, or
even the Babylonians than the New Testament. So, if we automatically
doubt the NT without cuase, you do so for all early texts or just the
ones you HOPE is not true?
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
06 Nov 2006 06:50:00 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
So, you reject the Illiad and other works of that age?
The Iliad is irrelevant here.
less source material and textual evidence for that work, Josephus, or
even the Babylonians than the New Testament. So, if we automatically
doubt the NT without cuase, you do so for all early texts or just the
ones you HOPE is not true?
I would not accept any historical claim for which there is no evidence.
This does not mean that I would accept an opposing claim for which there is
also no evidence.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
07 Nov 2006 09:39:01 PM |
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Midwinter wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
So, you reject the Illiad and other works of that age?
The Iliad is irrelevant here.
less source material and textual evidence for that work, Josephus, or
even the Babylonians than the New Testament. So, if we automatically
doubt the NT without cuase, you do so for all early texts or just the
ones you HOPE is not true?
I would not accept any historical claim for which there is no evidence.
This does not mean that I would accept an opposing claim for which there is
also no evidence.
Uh, hello? That's what research does. Someone makes a claim. We
check it out. Unless it can be proven false, it is generally accepted.
That's how almost all history books are written.
Think of a court case. Someone comes forward as a witness, swearing on
a Bible for it to be truth. What do we do then, automatically doubt
them? No, unless it is proven false, it is taken as truth. Apply the
same to the priest copiers of the Scriptures who, in essence, swore on
the Bible for it to be truth (knowing that the God that judges was
watching).
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
08 Nov 2006 04:10:35 AM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Uh, hello? That's what research does. Someone makes a claim. We
check it out. Unless it can be proven false, it is generally
accepted.
That's how almost all history books are written.
Clever, Ken - but still somewhat disingenuous. Even with the 'uh'. That
is not how research is done. True, science tests itself by attempting to
disprove what it currently believes to be true - and the closest thing
science can come to 'proving' any hypothesis is to say that it has so far
resisted all attempts to disprove it.
However, where your claim here becomes a little mendacious is in implying
that science (or any research along similarly empirical lines, including
history) will accept as a reasonable hypothesis any claim that is thrown
at it. This is not the case. There must first be some reason to believe
that the hypothesis has merit. Those hypotheses that cannot be
effectively ruled out but also cannot be shown to have any valid basis are
simply not addressed by science - such as, for example, the existence of
some form of divinity.
Think of a court case.
Law is not science. Your analogy is invalid.
Someone comes forward as a witness, swearing on a Bible for it to be
truth.
I would not consider the presence of the Bible to be of any relevance at
all. But that in itself does not mean I would judge the witness to be
lying. Were I on a jury, I would have to decide for myself, in each
individual case, whether I believed the witness or not. Most court cases
do not require 'proof', as you imply, but merely a reasonable probability
one way or the other.
But, as I said, the law is not science - the two processes do not compare,
and therefore, your analogy between court witnesses and priest scribes is
irrelevant.
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
08 Nov 2006 11:55:17 AM |
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Midwinter wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Uh, hello? That's what research does. Someone makes a claim. We
check it out. Unless it can be proven false, it is generally
accepted.
That's how almost all history books are written.
Clever, Ken - but still somewhat disingenuous. Even with the 'uh'. That
is not how research is done. True, science tests itself by attempting to
disprove what it currently believes to be true - and the closest thing
science can come to 'proving' any hypothesis is to say that it has so far
resisted all attempts to disprove it.
However, where your claim here becomes a little mendacious is in implying
that science (or any research along similarly empirical lines, including
history) will accept as a reasonable hypothesis any claim that is thrown
at it. This is not the case. There must first be some reason to believe
that the hypothesis has merit. Those hypotheses that cannot be
effectively ruled out but also cannot be shown to have any valid basis are
simply not addressed by science - such as, for example, the existence of
some form of divinity.
Think of a court case.
Law is not science. Your analogy is invalid.
Someone comes forward as a witness, swearing on a Bible for it to be
truth.
I would not consider the presence of the Bible to be of any relevance at
all. But that in itself does not mean I would judge the witness to be
lying. Were I on a jury, I would have to decide for myself, in each
individual case, whether I believed the witness or not. Most court cases
do not require 'proof', as you imply, but merely a reasonable probability
one way or the other.
But, as I said, the law is not science - the two processes do not compare,
and therefore, your analogy between court witnesses and priest scribes is
irrelevant.
Who said anything about science? We were talking about textual sources
and text criticism, remember? Although, you are revealing your bias
here.
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
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| User: "Mark T moi@765447698707098657342312433587697878534" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
08 Nov 2006 10:24:15 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Chunder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wroteth:
.... whatever ...
--
If Yahweh anoints the Messiah and the Messiah is Yahweh then Yahweh anoints
himself. Why?
If Yahweh's Messiah belongs to Yahweh then Yahweh belongs to Yahweh. Why?
Jesus and his apostles went to the Jerusalem Temple to worship the One God
Yahweh. They never went to the Jeruslaem Temple to worship Jesus of
Nazareth. Why?
Why can no-one answer these questions????
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
08 Nov 2006 07:18:37 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Who said anything about science? We were talking about textual sources
and text criticism, remember? Although, you are revealing your bias
here.
That I'm biased towards the scientific process over the blind acceptance
of any old religious tat? Yes, that's a bias of mine.
But although you're keen to shift the goalposts again, you spoke about
'research' - and if you're interested in research then you're interested
in some basic processes of research. The first of which, always, is "do
we have any actual evidence to support this claim". That goes the same
for history and science - and it doesn't work for religion, which, at
best, exists outside of science. And at worst, tries pathetically to
suppress it.
Yes, I'm biased enough, Ken. And nothing has changed. I won't accept as
fact something for which there is no evidence - that's where I make myself
a target for religious fundies. However, I also make myself a target for
militant atheists by refusing to rule something out entirely without
evidence to suggest it's not possible.
.
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| User: "James" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
06 Dec 2006 11:49:08 AM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com>
Re: Jesus as God, pt 14
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
John 14:6-9
"6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have
known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen
him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it
sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath
seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
Notes: What man (only) claims to be the reflection of the Father?
What man has the authority to make Himself the only way to the Father
(not his message but Himself)? What man claims to BE the way, truth,
and life? Who but God can decide who gets to Himself? Has any prophet
in history made such claims?
Jesus is God.
Hello,
Notice in the verses above, Jesus never said 'I am God' or any such
statement. But yes, Jesus did 'reflect' God's qualities. But just like
a reflection of something is not actually the thing it is reflecting,
neither is Jesus Almighty God.
The apostle John tells us that "The Word became flesh and made his
dwelling among us. We have seen his glory,..." (Joh 1:14; NIV)
Thus Jesus in his prehuman existence was known as the "Word". And when
that "Word" came to earth, people have "seen" that Word (Jesus).
Yet that same writer, the apostle John, says a few verses later at vs
18,
"No one has ever seen God..."
If God was known as the "Word", and that "Word" came to the earth,
then people would have seen that "Word", thus seeing God. Yet the
apostle John clearly tells us that no human has ever seen God. Thus
Jesus cannot be God.
(true, some translations at John 1:1 say that the "Word" WAS God, thus
also contradicting vs 18. But not all Bible translations agree with
those same words in vs 1. For a detailed discussion, just ask)
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.
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| User: "r m rm@hotmailDOTcom" |
|
| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
06 Dec 2006 03:04:49 PM |
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"James" <bireda@allvantage.com> wrote in message
news:aavdn25aegenvt6cl34j9n9ekflmdo85ms@4ax.com...
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com>
Re: Jesus as God, pt 14
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
John 14:6-9
"6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have
known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen
him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it
sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath
seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
Notes: What man (only) claims to be the reflection of the Father?
What man has the authority to make Himself the only way to the Father
(not his message but Himself)? What man claims to BE the way, truth,
and life? Who but God can decide who gets to Himself? Has any prophet
in history made such claims?
Jesus is God.
Hello,
Notice in the verses above, Jesus never said 'I am God' or any such
statement. But yes, Jesus did 'reflect' God's qualities. But just like
a reflection of something is not actually the thing it is reflecting,
neither is Jesus Almighty God.
The apostle John tells us that "The Word became flesh and made his
dwelling among us. We have seen his glory,..." (Joh 1:14; NIV)
Thus Jesus in his prehuman existence was known as the "Word". And when
that "Word" came to earth, people have "seen" that Word (Jesus).
Yet that same writer, the apostle John, says a few verses later at vs
18,
"No one has ever seen God..."
If God was known as the "Word", and that "Word" came to the earth,
then people would have seen that "Word", thus seeing God. Yet the
apostle John clearly tells us that no human has ever seen God. Thus
Jesus cannot be God.
Didn't Jesus say " ... If you had known me, you would have known my Father
also. From now on you do know him and have seen him ..." ( Joh 14:7 ) ?
(true, some translations at John 1:1 say that the "Word" WAS God, thus
also contradicting vs 18. But not all Bible translations agree with
those same words in vs 1. For a detailed discussion, just ask)
OK. Let's discuss.
I take it that Logos and theos decline the same. In this case they have
the same case in that both are subject to the same verb 'was' . Theos is
not object case to the verb 'was' .
Therefore, they are one and the same.
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.
|
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
|
| Title: Re: Jesus as God, pt 14 |
05 Jan 2007 02:11:34 PM |
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Well done !
"James" <bireda@allvantage.com> wrote in message
news:aavdn25aegenvt6cl34j9n9ekflmdo85ms@4ax.com...
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com>
Re: Jesus as God, pt 14
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
John 14:6-9
"6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have
known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen
him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it
sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath
seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"
Notes: What man (only) claims to be the reflection of the Father?
What man has the authority to make Himself the only way to the Father
(not his message but Himself)? What man claims to BE the way, truth,
and life? Who but God can decide who gets to Himself? Has any prophet
in history made such claims?
Jesus is God.
Hello,
Notice in the verses above, Jesus never said 'I am God' or any such
statement. But yes, Jesus did 'reflect' God's qualities. But just like
a reflection of something is not actually the thing it is reflecting,
neither is Jesus Almighty God.
The apostle John tells us that "The Word became flesh and made his
dwelling among us. We have seen his glory,..." (Joh 1:14; NIV)
Thus Jesus in his prehuman existence was known as the "Word". And when
that "Word" came to earth, people have "seen" that Word (Jesus).
Yet that same writer, the apostle John, says a few verses later at vs
18,
"No one has ever seen God..."
If God was known as the "Word", and that "Word" came to the earth,
then people would have seen that "Word", thus seeing God. Yet the
apostle John clearly tells us that no human has ever seen God. Thus
Jesus cannot be God.
(true, some translations at John 1:1 say that the "Word" WAS God, thus
also contradicting vs 18. But not all Bible translations agree with
those same words in vs 1. For a detailed discussion, just ask)
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
Ken Clifton
http://www.lulu.com/writingken
.
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