Religions > Bible > Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Terry Cross" |
| Date: |
16 Mar 2006 06:27:04 PM |
| Object: |
Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
Jesus said the Torah was the word of Moses
Jesus said the Torah differed from God's intention:
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not
so.
Mark 10:4-6
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
What think you of this?
TCross
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
17 Mar 2006 01:39:50 AM |
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"Terry Cross"
Jesus said the Torah was the word of Moses
Jesus said the Torah differed from God's intention:
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your
hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the
beginning it was not
so.
Mark 10:4-6
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of
divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness
of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them
male and
female.
What think you of this?
Jesus was saying what was already well known, that the Law
was a system designed for imperfect, sinful humanity.
Sometimes marriage would take place among these people in
which one party turned out to be completely worthless. God
never expected someone to survive in a marriage like this,
and so He made a way out--the divorce court. However, God
has always wanted people to love righteousness. A marriage
based on this can only succeed, and God intended for it to
succeed.
When Jesus attributed the Law to Moses he was accepting the
written record of the Law, that it was written by Moses
under the inspiration of God.
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
18 Mar 2006 01:35:47 AM |
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randy wrote:
Jesus was saying what was already well known, that the Law
was a system designed for imperfect, sinful humanity.
Wrong, moron.
take your medication
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
16 Mar 2006 06:31:46 PM |
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"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142555224.032405.306350@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Jesus said the Torah was the word of Moses
Jesus said the Torah differed from God's intention:
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not
so.
This sounds like fine crafting of corrupted minds, like Origen, to set the
stage for the likes of the evil, Martin Luther.
It sounds like someone trying to destroy the Jews, like Amalek, or Bilaam,
Balak or Pharaoh...sounds like the same old same old.... And when a person
is deprogrammed, they see...that this is a Jew putting down Jews, which is
like Doeg, and Achitophel, and Jeraboam ben Nebat.
Mark 10:4-6
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
What think you of this?
Sounds like control issues not based on Torah.
TCross
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
16 Mar 2006 06:33:04 PM |
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"Mary Hogan" <hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote in message
news:1142555358_8999@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142555224.032405.306350@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Jesus said the Torah was the word of Moses
Jesus said the Torah differed from God's intention:
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not
so.
This sounds like fine crafting of corrupted minds, like Origen, to set the
stage for the likes of the evil, Martin Luther.
It sounds like someone trying to destroy the Jews, like Amalek, or Bilaam,
Balak or Pharaoh...sounds like the same old same old.... And when a person
is deprogrammed, they see...that this is a Jew putting down Jews, which is
like Doeg, and Achitophel, and Jeraboam ben Nebat.
Mark 10:4-6
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
What think you of this?
Sounds like control issues not based on Torah.
TCross
Why people can't see this evil is beyond me, but...I was once so blind.
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| User: "Joseph Hertzlinger" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
17 Mar 2006 12:28:46 AM |
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If true, this is a strong argument against Christianity.
--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
17 Mar 2006 12:40:29 AM |
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Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:
If true, this is a strong argument against Christianity.
--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com
Perhaps. But a VERY powerful argument for Jesus.
TCross
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
18 Mar 2006 01:19:26 AM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:
If true, this is a strong argument against Christianity.
--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com
Perhaps. But a VERY powerful argument for Jesus.
i don't see how such a statement by this Yehudi would be a "powerful
argument" for anything except his being ostracized.
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?cantc=FF?=" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
17 Mar 2006 01:32:32 AM |
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Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:
If true, this is a strong argument against Christianity.
If it is true, it means that Jesus existed.
Jesus also said that it was not so from the beginning...
implying that the law under Moses was not as God originally intended.
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
17 Mar 2006 08:43:37 AM |
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"cantcÿ" <noratz99@ao|.com> wrote in message
news:121kpght0vb4b76@corp.supernews.com...
Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:
If true, this is a strong argument against Christianity.
If it is true, it means that Jesus existed.
Jesus also said that it was not so from the beginning...
implying that the law under Moses was not as God originally intended.
Liars always make it up on the fly.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
18 Mar 2006 01:37:01 AM |
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Mary Hogan wrote:
"cantcy" <noratz99@ao|.com> wrote in message
news:121kpght0vb4b76@corp.supernews.com...
Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:
If true, this is a strong argument against Christianity.
If it is true, it means that Jesus existed.
Jesus also said that it was not so from the beginning...
implying that the law under Moses was not as God originally intended.
Liars always make it up on the fly.
yes they do.
the yeshua character was torah observanat andperceived his mission in
the context of the TaNaKh.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
18 Mar 2006 01:21:06 AM |
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cantcy wrote:
Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:
If true, this is a strong argument against Christianity.
If it is true, it means that Jesus existed.
Jesus also said that it was not so from the beginning...
implying that the law under Moses was not as God originally intended.
which is a logical fault and crashes the entire system, including
derivative systems.
it's nonsense , he could never have implied such as the NT presents the
incident
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
18 Mar 2006 03:20:51 PM |
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You should always preface
"According to the Gospel writer" Jesus said... etc.
No evidence that anyone but those writers said what they claim
"Jesus said". -- L.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
19 Mar 2006 03:42:19 AM |
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Libertarius wrote:
You should always preface
"According to the Gospel writer" Jesus said... etc.
No evidence that anyone but those writers said what they claim
"Jesus said". -- L.
certainly the Yeshua character of Matthew 5:17 knows nothing of John
14:6
as for Matthew 19:8 there is no possibility that he implies Moshe and
not Y_H_V_H delivered torah,
such overthrows his entire mission,
which he perceives as effecting the qualification of Yisrael for divine
intervention at the mount of olives.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
20 Mar 2006 01:42:42 PM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
You should always preface
"According to the Gospel writer" Jesus said... etc.
No evidence that anyone but those writers said what they claim
"Jesus said". -- L.
certainly the Yeshua character of Matthew 5:17 knows nothing of John
14:6
as for Matthew 19:8 there is no possibility that he implies Moshe and
not Y_H_V_H delivered torah,
such overthrows his entire mission,
And how would Satan know the "entire mission" of Jesus? Has Satan
interviewed Jesus?
which he perceives
Lo! Satan has CHANNELED Jesus. We are so lucky.
TCross
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
20 Mar 2006 11:18:27 PM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
You should always preface
"According to the Gospel writer" Jesus said... etc.
No evidence that anyone but those writers said what they claim
"Jesus said". -- L.
certainly the Yeshua character of Matthew 5:17 knows nothing of John
14:6
as for Matthew 19:8 there is no possibility that he implies Moshe and
not Y_H_V_H delivered torah,
such overthrows his entire mission,
And how would Satan know the "entire mission" of Jesus?
because he has studied the New Testament with a Greek manuscript for
more than a decade.
one would think an interest in "Jesus" would be accompanied by such.
but it so happens regarding this question one need little access to the
source to define his mission,
some is necessary,
but overall the translation in English is probably sufficient.
Lo! Satan has CHANNELED Jesus. We are so lucky.
TCross
are you having your "brandy hour" ?
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
21 Mar 2006 02:20:44 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
You should always preface
"According to the Gospel writer" Jesus said... etc.
No evidence that anyone but those writers said what they claim
"Jesus said". -- L.
certainly the Yeshua character of Matthew 5:17 knows nothing of John
14:6
as for Matthew 19:8 there is no possibility that he implies Moshe and
not Y_H_V_H delivered torah,
such overthrows his entire mission,
And how would Satan know the "entire mission" of Jesus?
because he has studied the New Testament with a Greek manuscript for
more than a decade.
No one should pretend the entirety of Jesus' life, words, and works are
contained in the New Testament. Not even Satan (master of silliness
though he is) could believe that.
TCross
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| User: "Amangi Machque" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
21 Mar 2006 02:32:45 AM |
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"Terry Cross" wrote
: Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
: > Terry Cross wrote:
: > > Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
: > > > Libertarius wrote:
: > > > > You should always preface
: > > > > "According to the Gospel writer" Jesus said... etc.
: > > > > No evidence that anyone but those writers said what they claim
: > > > > "Jesus said". -- L.
: > > >
: > > >
: > > > certainly the Yeshua character of Matthew 5:17 knows nothing of John
: > > > 14:6
: > > >
: > > > as for Matthew 19:8 there is no possibility that he implies Moshe
and
: > > > not Y_H_V_H delivered torah,
: > > > such overthrows his entire mission,
: > >
: > > And how would Satan know the "entire mission" of Jesus?
: >
: > because he has studied the New Testament with a Greek manuscript for
: > more than a decade.
:
: No one should pretend the entirety of Jesus' life, words, and works are
: contained in the New Testament.
Jumping to conclusions, aren't you? Then again, you wouldn't really want to
hear about "Jesus'" life.
--
Machque
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the
future." -Lumbee
"The one who tells the stories rules the world." -Hopi
"Sing your death song and die like a hero going home." -Shawnee
"A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many
regrets." -Arthur C. Clarke
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses |
21 Mar 2006 03:52:32 AM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
You should always preface
"According to the Gospel writer" Jesus said... etc.
No evidence that anyone but those writers said what they claim
"Jesus said". -- L.
certainly the Yeshua character of Matthew 5:17 knows nothing of John
14:6
as for Matthew 19:8 there is no possibility that he implies Moshe and
not Y_H_V_H delivered torah,
such overthrows his entire mission,
And how would Satan know the "entire mission" of Jesus?
because he has studied the New Testament with a Greek manuscript for
more than a decade.
No one should pretend the entirety of Jesus' life, words, and works are
contained in the New Testament.
'entire mission' does not imply that the New testament is a transcript
of his three decades experiences.
but as it stands we have only the second and third century texts from
which to answer the question.
the question, "What was the mission of 'Jesus' ?" must be answered by
the alleged New Testament Gospels.
if not these then to which source do we go to answer this question ?
and furthermore how the hell would we have even heard of this character
without the 2nd and 3rd century texts ?
Not even Satan (master of silliness
though he is) could believe that.
you are exhibiting symptoms of stupidity again.
Go back under the Gowanus and earn some money for your "fix"
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| User: "Hieron" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
17 Mar 2006 03:32:47 PM |
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Moses must have "suffered" quite a lot, according to Jesus ;-)
Terry Cross wrote:
Jesus said the Torah was the word of Moses
Jesus said the Torah differed from God's intention:
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not
so.
Mark 10:4-6
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
What think you of this?
TCross
--
Hieron
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
17 Mar 2006 09:13:23 AM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
Jesus said the Torah was the word of Moses
Jesus said the Torah differed from God's intention:
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not
so.
Mark 10:4-6
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
What think you of this?
TCross
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
There are some points to be noted:
First, Jesus was responding to the Pharisees who asked him "Is it
lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew
19:3)
As seen in the quotes below, the opinion of Hillel prevailed in
allowing a man to divorce his wife for *any* reason at all, even if she
accidently burned his food.
Second, in Malachi 2:14-16 God says that he hates divorce because it
often involves a man treating his wife in a treacherous fashion.
In verse 15 God refers to the "one" that the husband and wife became in
Genesis 2:24, exactly the same argument that Jesus used in Matthew
19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9 when he said that the one should not be split in
two.
Third, in Jeremiah 3:8 God says that as much as he hates divorce such
divorce is nevertheless justified when the wife has committed adultery.
That corresponds to the "uncleanness" necessary for divorce in
Deuteronomy 24:1.
That also corresponds to the sole justification for divorce as stated
by Jesus in Matthew 5:31-32 and Matthew 19:9.
Fourth, Malachi 4:4 has God referring to the "Law of Moses".
So Jesus was not necessarily criticizing Moses.
Jesus was saying that the Law through Moses did not represent God's
ideal but was instead a pragmatic system.
Which makes sense, because the Law through Moses explained what to do
with sinners, and in God's ideal there wouldn't be any sinners.
[ This research was powered by Dr Pepper, the breakfast of champions ]
-----------------begin quote------------------
(b) Beis Hillel extrapolate from "Davar" in the same Pasuk - that he
may divorce her for any other fault that he finds in her (even if she
just burned the food).
(c) Rebbi Akiva is the most lenient of all. He learns that a man may
divorce his wife simply because he found someone nicer than her - from
the Pasuk there "ve'Hayah Im Lo Simtza Chein be'Einav ... ".
- quoted from
http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/gitin/reviewa/gi-ra-90.htm
-----------------begin quote------------------
Yevamot 64a-b
[snip]
If a man took a wife and lived with her for ten years and she bore no
child, he shall divorce her
- quoted from
http://www.jewishgates.com/file.asp?File_ID=3D583
----------------begin quote------------------
POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
Yevamos 64
..=2E.
2) A MAN MUST MARRY A WOMAN THAT CAN HAVE CHILDREN
..=2E.
(c) (Gemara - Beraisa): If a man married a woman and she did not give
birth in 10 years, he must divorce her
..=2E.
- quoted from
http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/yevamos/points/ye-ps-064.htm
----------------begin quote------------------
Jewish Encyclopedia .com
DIVORCE: =20
By : Solomon Schechter David Werner Amram =20
..=2E.
In the Mishnaic period the theory of the law
that the husband could divorce his wife at will was challenged by the
school of Shammai. It interpreted the text of Deut. xxiv. 1 in such
a manner as to reach the conclusion that the husband could not divorce
his wife except for cause, and that the cause must be sexual
immorality
(Git. ix. 10; Yer. So=B7<pi>!=3Dah i. 1, 16b). The school of Hillel,
however, held that
the husband need not assign any reason whatever; that any act on her
part which displeased him entitled him to give her a bill of divorce
(Gi=B7<pi>!=3D.
ib.). The opinion of the school of Hillel prevailed.
..=2E.
- quoted from
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=3D398&letter=3DD&search=3D=
divorce
-----------------end quote------------------=20
- moshe
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
17 Mar 2006 06:00:58 PM |
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wrote:
So Jesus was not necessarily criticizing Moses.
Jesus was saying that the Law through Moses did not represent God's
ideal but was instead a pragmatic system.
Which makes sense, because the Law through Moses explained what to do
with sinners, and in God's ideal there wouldn't be any sinners.
There will always be sinners, it goes with the territory of
being human. Moses' God fashioned His creation to work
perfectly as He designed it. Humankind works as it does
precisely because of this design. God's ideal is not
humankind but Himself. God did not desire to make an ideal
world, a redundant copy of Himself. If that was God's
desire, He would have made every individual perfection like
unto himself. Then there would be no mankind for mankind
requires the imperfections of a binary system in order to
exist. So, rather than complain about surroundings, one
should be grateful to God for the life God gave. God does
not appreciate the ingrate.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
17 Mar 2006 01:11:19 PM |
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wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Jesus said the Torah was the word of Moses
Jesus said the Torah differed from God's intention:
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not
so.
Mark 10:4-6
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
What think you of this?
TCross
==============
There are some points to be noted:
First, Jesus was responding to the Pharisees who asked him "Is it
lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew
19:3)
As seen in the quotes below, the opinion of Hillel prevailed in
allowing a man to divorce his wife for *any* reason at all, even if she
accidently burned his food.
Second, in Malachi 2:14-16 God says that he hates divorce because it
often involves a man treating his wife in a treacherous fashion.
In verse 15 God refers to the "one" that the husband and wife became in
Genesis 2:24, exactly the same argument that Jesus used in Matthew
19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9 when he said that the one should not be split in
two.
Third, in Jeremiah 3:8 God says that as much as he hates divorce such
divorce is nevertheless justified when the wife has committed adultery.
That corresponds to the "uncleanness" necessary for divorce in
Deuteronomy 24:1.
That also corresponds to the sole justification for divorce as stated
by Jesus in Matthew 5:31-32 and Matthew 19:9.
Fourth, Malachi 4:4 has God referring to the "Law of Moses".
So Jesus was not necessarily criticizing Moses.
Jesus was saying that the Law through Moses did not represent God's
ideal but was instead a pragmatic system.
Which makes sense, because the Law through Moses explained what to do
with sinners, and in God's ideal there wouldn't be any sinners.
Would you then say that Mosaic Law is NOT the perfect Law of God, but a
pragmatic and temporary expedient that might be lain aside when a
superior device for perfecting humankind was available?
Might that be a correct statement?
TCross
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| User: "randy" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
17 Mar 2006 03:04:51 PM |
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"Terry Cross"
fact-checker@hotmail.com
....Jesus was saying that the Law through Moses did not
represent God's
ideal but was instead a pragmatic system.
Which makes sense, because the Law through Moses
explained what to do
with sinners, and in God's ideal there wouldn't be any
sinners.
Would you then say that Mosaic Law is NOT the perfect Law
of God, but a
pragmatic and temporary expedient that might be lain aside
when a
superior device for perfecting humankind was available?
Might that be a correct statement?
Watch the semantics on this. Fact-checker was perfectly
right. Jesus was not criticizing Moses. But Jesus
was pointing out that although God did not sanction sinful
humanity He nevertheless sanctioned a means of dealing with
sinful humanity.
In this imperfect world, even under an ideal system such as
the Mosaic Law there is a need to recognize that not all
will follow righteousness. A marriage might begin with
promise, but end with disillusionment. The marriage might
become a kind of mixed religious marriage in which one
observes God's righteousness, while the other pulls against
it. God cannot sanction such a marriage without sanctioning
sin itself.
Be careful not to refer to the Law of Moses as an
"imperfect" system. Someone may think you deny the
perfect quality of the Law under the then-contempoary
circumstances. I do believe the Law of Moses was *precisely*
what Israel needed at the time, and as such, was as perfect
a system as could be had.
On the other hand, I believe we should understand that the
Law of Moses does not represent a sinless state of being,
something that God obviously has as His ultimate goal. The
Law attempted to correct the sins of men. It could only
accomplish this on a temporary basis since sin has a way of
dominating in a nation, leading to its destruction.
But God wanted to keep Israel in place until Messiah could
come. It is through Messiah that God deals with sin on a
permanent basis, actually removing sin from men
(resurrection) and from nations. When Messiah came the Law
thus lost its value in restraining sin. Messiah became both
the standard of dealing with sin, and also the way of
eliminating sin. Israel came under judgment for sin until
the time when Messiah will restore the whole nation in
righteousness.
randy
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
18 Mar 2006 03:35:56 AM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
fact-checker@hotmail.com wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Jesus said the Torah was the word of Moses
Jesus said the Torah differed from God's intention:
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not
so.
Mark 10:4-6
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
What think you of this?
TCross
==============
There are some points to be noted:
First, Jesus was responding to the Pharisees who asked him "Is it
lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew
19:3)
As seen in the quotes below, the opinion of Hillel prevailed in
allowing a man to divorce his wife for *any* reason at all, even if she
accidently burned his food.
Second, in Malachi 2:14-16 God says that he hates divorce because it
often involves a man treating his wife in a treacherous fashion.
In verse 15 God refers to the "one" that the husband and wife became in
Genesis 2:24, exactly the same argument that Jesus used in Matthew
19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9 when he said that the one should not be split in
two.
Third, in Jeremiah 3:8 God says that as much as he hates divorce such
divorce is nevertheless justified when the wife has committed adultery.
That corresponds to the "uncleanness" necessary for divorce in
Deuteronomy 24:1.
That also corresponds to the sole justification for divorce as stated
by Jesus in Matthew 5:31-32 and Matthew 19:9.
Fourth, Malachi 4:4 has God referring to the "Law of Moses".
So Jesus was not necessarily criticizing Moses.
Jesus was saying that the Law through Moses did not represent God's
ideal but was instead a pragmatic system.
Which makes sense, because the Law through Moses explained what to do
with sinners, and in God's ideal there wouldn't be any sinners.
Would you then say that Mosaic Law is NOT the perfect Law of God, but a
pragmatic and temporary expedient that might be lain aside when a
superior device for perfecting humankind was available?
Might that be a correct statement?
No that is impossible ; there is no "exit clause" or "cancellation"
permitted since torah is a binding irrevocable 'covenant' ;
not even the slightest aspect may be deleted or reinterpreted so as to
be ineffectual ;
this is what the yeshua character states explicitly in Matthew 5:17.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
18 Mar 2006 04:47:02 AM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
fact-checker@hotmail.com wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Jesus said the Torah was the word of Moses
Jesus said the Torah differed from God's intention:
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not
so.
Mark 10:4-6
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
What think you of this?
TCross
==============
There are some points to be noted:
First, Jesus was responding to the Pharisees who asked him "Is it
lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" (Matthew
19:3)
As seen in the quotes below, the opinion of Hillel prevailed in
allowing a man to divorce his wife for *any* reason at all, even if she
accidently burned his food.
Second, in Malachi 2:14-16 God says that he hates divorce because it
often involves a man treating his wife in a treacherous fashion.
In verse 15 God refers to the "one" that the husband and wife became in
Genesis 2:24, exactly the same argument that Jesus used in Matthew
19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9 when he said that the one should not be split in
two.
Third, in Jeremiah 3:8 God says that as much as he hates divorce such
divorce is nevertheless justified when the wife has committed adultery.
That corresponds to the "uncleanness" necessary for divorce in
Deuteronomy 24:1.
That also corresponds to the sole justification for divorce as stated
by Jesus in Matthew 5:31-32 and Matthew 19:9.
Fourth, Malachi 4:4 has God referring to the "Law of Moses".
So Jesus was not necessarily criticizing Moses.
Jesus was saying that the Law through Moses did not represent God's
ideal but was instead a pragmatic system.
Which makes sense, because the Law through Moses explained what to do
with sinners, and in God's ideal there wouldn't be any sinners.
Would you then say that Mosaic Law is NOT the perfect Law of God, but a
pragmatic and temporary expedient that might be lain aside when a
superior device for perfecting humankind was available?
Might that be a correct statement?
=======
Even many of Judaism's sages said so, as I have proven in the 4-part
"Torah changes" that I have posted here repeatedly over the years:
In the world to come there will be no sin sacrifices, most of the holy
days will no longer be observed, Jews will be allowed to eat pig, etc,
saith the rabbinic sages.
- moshe
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
18 Mar 2006 04:58:39 AM |
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wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Would you then say that Mosaic Law is NOT the perfect Law of God, but a
pragmatic and temporary expedient that might be lain aside when a
superior device for perfecting humankind was available?
Might that be a correct statement?
=======
Even many of Judaism's sages said so, as I have proven in the 4-part
"Torah changes" that I have posted here repeatedly over the years:
In the world to come there will be no sin sacrifices, most of the holy
days will no longer be observed, Jews will be allowed to eat pig, etc,
saith the rabbinic sages.
- moshe
may i ask how this could be relevant to Yeshua character ?
where in the New Testament are we transferred to Talmud for
verification ?
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus Said the Torah was Written by Moses, Not God |
18 Mar 2006 01:12:34 AM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
Jesus said the Torah was the word of Moses
Jesus said the Torah differed from God's intention:
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not
so.
Mark 10:4-6
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to
put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your
heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
What think you of this?
TCross
it is impossible for Yeshua to have said this as presented in the New
testament.
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