| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"V" |
| Date: |
24 Jan 2006 06:12:24 PM |
| Object: |
Jesus...fact or fiction |
Much dispute over the 'real' Jesus in recent years. Really the debate
goes back longer than that and was told it was brought up in the 19th
century. Freke wrote a book called "The Jesus Mysteries" proposing
that Jesus was created by the church to substitute their created God
for a similar pagan god that was similarly crucified and born of a
virgin. Speaking of virgins. Much discussion if Mary was a virgin, as
some theorizing she was raped by Roman soldier and the church created
an elaborate cover up to put a spin on it. Born of virgin or spin? This
is not of real import except for the ego based practitioner that must
demand things as they believe them to be. Jesus could have been born
from a cell of a frog in pond for all care. I am not attached to such
things. But, being a Christian-Buddhist it is nice to know if Jesus
really existed.
On another spiritual oriented forum the question came up that if it was
proven God was not real how would you change the way you live. Myself?
No change, for my actions would still be pointed in the direction of
peace by developing inner peace and developing inner peace in others.
You see, truth must transcends ego for it to be truth - for the truth
is that which does not change. So, it is this truth I seek with the
Christian faith. If you could summarize Christianity and the preaching
of Jesus it would be the golden rule. So this rule of reciprocity exits
outside of Jesus - as the falsification of Jesus doesn't falsify this
rule as peace generation vehicle.
For some Christians I speak with the question of authenticity all boils
down to whether the bible is real or not, with more emphasis on the new
testament than old for most Christians. The church doe not make matters
easy since it has a history of cover ups and deceits. For example it is
widely agreed upon Jesus was born in the spring and not on December 25.
The church aimed to take away the pagans from the solstice holiday so
substituted Christmas for this pagan day. They did the same with
Halloween.
Ever wonder why Christians worship on Sunday and Jews follow the
original Sabbath as the bible says? Constantine decided the worship day
for Christians to be on Sunday due to his differentiate Christians from
the Jews as well as to honor the sun god. Constantine was a new convert
to Christianity so he thought he could worship his pagan sun god and
his new Christian God on the same day.
The 4 books of the new testament were not written by first hand account
from apostles. They were handed down supposedly from apostles to the
writers, which were supposedly friends with the apostles of Jesus, so
more room for discrepancy. Furthermore, many Gnostic gospel were
destroyed or left out of the new testament due to prejudice of the
church. Also many changes and discrepancies in the bible due to
doctoring it up throughout the ages.
Would be interested in hearing FACT, pro and con about the truth behind
the existence of Jesus...what do we have IN FACT on the subject
V (Male)
For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive
spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write:
vfr44@aol.com. Any opinion expressed here is that of my own and is not
the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.
.
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| User: "Victor F. Antoine" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus...fact or fiction |
07 Feb 2006 11:07:56 PM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138147944.509960.189210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Much dispute over the 'real' Jesus in recent years. Really the debate
goes back longer than that and was told it was brought up in the 19th
century. Freke wrote a book called "The Jesus Mysteries" proposing
that Jesus was created by the church to substitute their created God
for a similar pagan god that was similarly crucified and born of a
virgin. Speaking of virgins. Much discussion if Mary was a virgin, as
some theorizing she was raped by Roman soldier and the church created
an elaborate cover up to put a spin on it. Born of virgin or spin? This
is not of real import except for the ego based practitioner that must
demand things as they believe them to be. Jesus could have been born
from a cell of a frog in pond for all care. I am not attached to such
things.
Mary was a vergin and not merely a young woman. If Jesus had not been born
of a vergin He would have been born with a sin nature and never would have
been an acceptable Sacrifce. It is only through the attoning work of Jesus
Christ that we may become acceptible to God.
But, being a Christian-Buddhist it is nice to know if Jesus
really existed.
Talk about an oxymoron.
On another spiritual oriented forum the question came up that if it was
proven God was not real how would you change the way you live. Myself?
No change, for my actions would still be pointed in the direction of
peace by developing inner peace and developing inner peace in others.
You see, truth must transcends ego for it to be truth - for the truth
is that which does not change. So, it is this truth I seek with the
Christian faith. If you could summarize Christianity and the preaching
of Jesus it would be the golden rule.
I differ, Jesus taught that you must be born again for only then can you
really hope to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You see we
are all born with a sin naure and left to our own devices we will choose our
way over God's which is sin. The only cure we can ever hope to get for sin's
consequences is Jesus Christ.
So this rule of reciprocity exits
outside of Jesus - as the falsification of Jesus doesn't falsify this
rule as peace generation vehicle.
For some Christians I speak with the question of authenticity all boils
down to whether the bible is real or not, with more emphasis on the new
testament than old for most Christians. The church doe not make matters
easy since it has a history of cover ups and deceits.
Now you speek of Roman Catholocism which is not the church. Most Roman
Catholics believe in the sacriments which in essence is work and not grace.
We are saved by grace not works.
For example it is
widely agreed upon Jesus was born in the spring and not on December 25.
The church aimed to take away the pagans from the solstice holiday so
substituted Christmas for this pagan day. They did the same with
Halloween.
Here I aggree. The Roman Catholic church adulterated true Christianity
terribly.
Ever wonder why Christians worship on Sunday and Jews follow the
original Sabbath as the bible says?
Sunday was the day that Jesus rose from the dead. Constantine had nothing to
do with worshiping on Sunday. The book of Acts records how they were all
together in on accord on the first day. The first day is Sunday.
Constantine decided the worship day
for Christians to be on Sunday due to his differentiate Christians from
the Jews as well as to honor the sun god. Constantine was a new convert
to Christianity so he thought he could worship his pagan sun god and
his new Christian God on the same day.
The 4 books of the new testament were not written by first hand account
from apostles. They were handed down supposedly from apostles to the
writers, which were supposedly friends with the apostles of Jesus, so
more room for discrepancy.
The Gospells were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John from what they
had actually seen and heard.
Furthermore, many Gnostic gospel were
destroyed or left out of the new testament due to prejudice of the
church. Also many changes and discrepancies in the bible due to
doctoring it up throughout the ages.
Would be interested in hearing FACT, pro and con about the truth behind
the existence of Jesus...what do we have IN FACT on the subject
I like the facts that you left out. Assertions are not fact merely because
that is what you believe.
V (Male)
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus...fact or fiction |
09 Feb 2006 12:30:38 PM |
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Go back to school, little boy, and learn that not everything you hear in
Sunday
<br>School is true -- and learn to spell or at least to use your spell-checker.
-- L.
<p>"Victor F. Antoine" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
<br><a href="news:1138147944.509960.189210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com">news:1138147944.509960.189210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>...
<br>>
<br>>
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> Much dispute over the 'real' Jesus in recent years. Really the debate
<br>> goes back longer than that and was told it was brought up in the
19th
<br>> century. Freke wrote a book called "The Jesus Mysteries" proposing
<br>> that Jesus was created by the church to substitute their created
God
<br>> for a similar pagan god that was similarly crucified and born of
a
<br>> virgin. Speaking of virgins. Much discussion if Mary was a virgin,
as
<br>> some theorizing she was raped by Roman soldier and the church created
<br>> an elaborate cover up to put a spin on it. Born of virgin or spin?
This
<br>> is not of real import except for the ego based practitioner that
must
<br>> demand things as they believe them to be. Jesus could have been born
<br>> from a cell of a frog in pond for all care. I am not attached to
such
<br>> things.
<br>Mary was a vergin and not merely a young woman. If Jesus had not been
born
<br>of a vergin He would have been born with a sin nature and never would
have
<br>been an acceptable Sacrifce. It is only through the attoning work of
Jesus
<br>Christ that we may become acceptible to God.
<br>But, being a Christian-Buddhist it is nice to know if Jesus
<br>> really existed.
<br>Talk about an oxymoron.
<br>> On another spiritual oriented forum the question came up that if
it was
<br>> proven God was not real how would you change the way you live. Myself?
<br>> No change, for my actions would still be pointed in the direction
of
<br>> peace by developing inner peace and developing inner peace in others.
<br>> You see, truth must transcends ego for it to be truth - for the truth
<br>> is that which does not change. So, it is this truth I seek with the
<br>> Christian faith. If you could summarize Christianity and the preaching
<br>> of Jesus it would be the golden rule.
<p>I differ, Jesus taught that you must be born again for only then can
you
<br>really hope to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You
see we
<br>are all born with a sin naure and left to our own devices we will choose
our
<br>way over God's which is sin. The only cure we can ever hope to get
for sin's
<br>consequences is Jesus Christ.
<p>So this rule of reciprocity exits
<br>> outside of Jesus - as the falsification of Jesus doesn't falsify
this
<br>> rule as peace generation vehicle.
<br>>
<br>> For some Christians I speak with the question of authenticity all
boils
<br>> down to whether the bible is real or not, with more emphasis on the
new
<br>> testament than old for most Christians. The church doe not make matters
<br>> easy since it has a history of cover ups and deceits.
<br>Now you speek of Roman Catholocism which is not the church. Most Roman
<br>Catholics believe in the sacriments which in essence is work and not
grace.
<br>We are saved by grace not works.
<br> For example it is
<br>> widely agreed upon Jesus was born in the spring and not on December
25.
<br>> The church aimed to take away the pagans from the solstice holiday
so
<br>> substituted Christmas for this pagan day. They did the same with
<br>> Halloween.
<br>Here I aggree. The Roman Catholic church adulterated true Christianity
<br>terribly.
<br>>
<br>> Ever wonder why Christians worship on Sunday and Jews follow the
<br>> original Sabbath as the bible says?
<br>Sunday was the day that Jesus rose from the dead. Constantine had nothing
to
<br>do with worshiping on Sunday. The book of Acts records how they were
all
<br>together in on accord on the first day. The first day is Sunday.
<p>Constantine decided the worship day
<br>> for Christians to be on Sunday due to his differentiate Christians
from
<br>> the Jews as well as to honor the sun god. Constantine was a new convert
<br>> to Christianity so he thought he could worship his pagan sun god
and
<br>> his new Christian God on the same day.
<br>>
<br>> The 4 books of the new testament were not written by first hand account
<br>> from apostles. They were handed down supposedly from apostles to
the
<br>> writers, which were supposedly friends with the apostles of Jesus,
so
<br>> more room for discrepancy.
<p>The Gospells were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John from what
they
<br>had actually seen and heard.
<br>Furthermore, many Gnostic gospel were
<br>> destroyed or left out of the new testament due to prejudice of the
<br>> church. Also many changes and discrepancies in the bible due to
<br>> doctoring it up throughout the ages.
<br>>
<br>> Would be interested in hearing FACT, pro and con about the truth
behind
<br>> the existence of Jesus...what do we have IN FACT on the subject
<br>>
<br>I like the facts that you left out. Assertions are not fact merely
because
<br>that is what you believe.
<br>>
<br>>
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> V (Male)</blockquote>
</html>
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| User: "Your Name Here=Harvey" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus...fact or fiction |
25 Jan 2006 04:40:52 AM |
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In article <1138147944.509960.189210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
vfr44@aol.com says...
Much dispute over the 'real' Jesus in recent years. Really the debate
goes back longer than that and was told it was brought up in the 19th
century. Freke wrote a book called "The Jesus Mysteries" proposing
that Jesus was created by the church to substitute their created God
for a similar pagan god that was similarly crucified and born of a
virgin. Speaking of virgins. Much discussion if Mary was a virgin, as
some theorizing she was raped by Roman soldier and the church created
an elaborate cover up to put a spin on it. Born of virgin or spin? This
is not of real import except for the ego based practitioner that must
demand things as they believe them to be. Jesus could have been born
from a cell of a frog in pond for all care. I am not attached to such
things. But, being a Christian-Buddhist it is nice to know if Jesus
really existed.
On another spiritual oriented forum the question came up that if it was
proven God was not real how would you change the way you live. Myself?
No change, for my actions would still be pointed in the direction of
peace by developing inner peace and developing inner peace in others.
You see, truth must transcends ego for it to be truth - for the truth
is that which does not change. So, it is this truth I seek with the
Christian faith. If you could summarize Christianity and the preaching
of Jesus it would be the golden rule. So this rule of reciprocity exits
outside of Jesus - as the falsification of Jesus doesn't falsify this
rule as peace generation vehicle.
For some Christians I speak with the question of authenticity all boils
down to whether the bible is real or not, with more emphasis on the new
testament than old for most Christians. The church doe not make matters
easy since it has a history of cover ups and deceits. For example it is
widely agreed upon Jesus was born in the spring and not on December 25.
The church aimed to take away the pagans from the solstice holiday so
substituted Christmas for this pagan day. They did the same with
Halloween.
Ever wonder why Christians worship on Sunday and Jews follow the
original Sabbath as the bible says? Constantine decided the worship day
for Christians to be on Sunday due to his differentiate Christians from
the Jews as well as to honor the sun god. Constantine was a new convert
to Christianity so he thought he could worship his pagan sun god and
his new Christian God on the same day.
The 4 books of the new testament were not written by first hand account
from apostles. They were handed down supposedly from apostles to the
writers, which were supposedly friends with the apostles of Jesus, so
more room for discrepancy. Furthermore, many Gnostic gospel were
destroyed or left out of the new testament due to prejudice of the
church. Also many changes and discrepancies in the bible due to
doctoring it up throughout the ages.
Would be interested in hearing FACT, pro and con about the truth behind
the existence of Jesus...what do we have IN FACT on the subject
V (Male)
For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive
spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write:
vfr44@aol.com. Any opinion expressed here is that of my own and is not
the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.
There is the alternate story - that the stories about Jesus, is based
on the life of Jmmanuel - this is covered at
www.tjresearch.info
in brief
http://www.tjresearch.info/tjheresy.htm
The evidence for this version of events is in
Ed T Martin's "King of Travellers - Jesus' Lost Years in India".
Briefly, that there was no resurrection, Jmmanuel (Jesus) was near death,
but was revived in the tomb - Joseph of Arithmea was prepared for this,
having asked for the body as soon as possible, and being prepared for the
resucitation, in which he had helpers who knew what to do.
The Jmmanuel story is integral with UFOs, ie. ETs - which of course
explains the virgin birth, and the parentage of Jmmanuel/Jesus.
Christians for the most part - probably turn off when UFOs/ETs are
mentioned, as most ordinary people do.
Not having read into the subject, or thought about it...
They will not admit to, UFOs being in the Bible - as in the Book of Ezekiel,
and elsewhere in the bible.
Discussion about all this, and the teachings of Jmmanuel, is at
www.figu.org
Join the English discussion forum there, and search the database of
the archives.
There is the Talmud Jmmanuel text, which gives a different version of
events, different to the standard Jesus story, although much remains
the same. There are a few key differences.
I never accepted the resurrection. And I always had the feeling that
Jesus would have taught reincarnation, which references still remain,
in the Bible.
Harvey
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus...fact or fiction |
25 Jan 2006 08:54:07 AM |
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Thanks for your input Harvey,
V
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| User: "Your Name Here=Harvey" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus...fact or fiction |
25 Jan 2006 06:12:00 PM |
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In article <1138200847.924362.273590@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
vfr44@aol.com says...
Thanks for your input Harvey,
V
I think you have to ask yourself - what is it about the traditional
story about Jesus, that you have problems believing in?
eg. That Judas the apostle betrayed Jesus.
In the alternate story - this does not happen, there are two Judas,
the one who betrayed Jesus, was the son of a high priest, and in
the Christian version, the confusion between the two men - Judas's
is purposefully rewritten.
Here is a sample from the Talmud Jmmanuel text. (where Jmmanuel = Jesus)
If people do want to see a text which actually records the teachings
of Jesus - then this text is that text.
The reason why this text is not known about to most people - is of course,
it does not confirm the traditional story about Jesus - and Christianity.
I say, let people know of this text, and let people make up their
own minds, who and what they believe in....
Harvey
Peter's Faith
17. Jmmanuel came into the area of Caesarea Philippi and asked his disciples,
"Who do the people say that I am?"
18. They said, "Some say that you are John the Baptist, others that you are
Elijah
and still others that you are Jeremiah or one of the old prophets:
19. And he said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
20. Simon Peter answered, saying, "You are the prophesied Messiah and a son
of the
living god who is the spiritual ruler of the three human lineages."
21. Jmmanuel became angry and answered, saying to him, "Oh you unfortunate
one,
my teachings have not revealed this to you, for I instructed you in the
truth.
22. "And I also tell you, you certainly are a faithful disciple, but your
understanding
must be compared to that of a child.
23. "You are Peter, and I cannot build my teachings on your rock. You will
open the portals
of misunderstanding, so that the people will be over come by your
mistaken interpretation
of my teachings and will follow them and live according to falsified
teachings.
24. "I cannot give you the key to the spiritual kingdom, otherwise you would
open false
locks and wrong portals with it.
25. "I am not the son of a spiritual ruler of three human lineages and
therefore not the
son of god; furthermore, the sole spiritual power is Creation and never a
human being;
therefore free yourself from these erroneous teachings and learn the
truth.
26. "My mother is Mary, who truly conceived me through a guardian angel, a
descendant of our
ancestors, who traveled here from the far reaches of the universe; and my
earthly father
is Joseph, who only acts as my paternal guardian.
27. Then he warned his disciples never to tell or wrongly assume such things,
and that they
were not allowed to spread Peter's confused teachings.
Proclamation of the Passion
28. From that time onward, Jmmanuel began to tell his disciples that he would
have to go to
Jerusalem and suffer much from the elders, scribes and chief priests,
because he could not
help but bring his teachings to them.
29. And Peter took him aside and spoke to him angrily, "May god or Creation
prevent that!
30. "This must not happen to you, because they will catch and torture and kill
you."
31. But he turned to Peter, became angry and said, "Get away from me, Satan,
for you are an
annoyance, because you are thinking not in spiritual but in human terms.
32. "Simon Peter, again you make me angry and show your ignorant thinking.
33. "Truly, I say to you, owing to your lack of understanding, the world will
shed much blood
because you will falsify my teachings and spread them erroneously among
the people.
34. "You will be to blame for the deaths of many people, as well as for the
origin of a false
name for me and for the evil insult of calling me the son of god, and
calling god Creation itself.
35. "But you are still under the grace of my long-suffering patience, so you
can still measurably
improve upon your irrationality."
36. Then Jmmanuel said to his disciples, "Those who desire to follow my
teachings should take
upon themselves the burden of the search for truth, insight and
understanding,
37. "because those who live their lives in truth and knowledge will be
victorious, but those who
live their lives in untruth and ignorance will lose.
38. "What would it profit them if they should gain the whole world, yet still
damage their consciousness?
39. "Or, how can one help one's spirit if unable to think?
40. "Truly, I say to you, there are several here who will not taste the power
of spiritual
knowledge in this life, and so they will learn in the next life.
41. "The human spirit is ignorant until it has gained knowledge through
thinking and inquiry.
42. "The spirit of a person is not a human product but is a part of Creation
given to humans.
It must be made knowledgeable and perfected,
43. "so that it proceeds to become one with Creation, since Creation, too,
lives in constant growth.
44. "Creation is timeless, and so is the human spirit.
45. "The teaching of this knowledge is extensive and not simple, but it is the
way to life
that is diverse in its nature.
46. "The human life is destined for perfection of the spirit, in order that
life be
lived in fulfillment thereof.
47. "Even when humans burden themselves with mistakes, they act according to a
law of
Creation, because they learn from them and gather insight and knowledge,
whereby
they develop their spirits, and through their spirits' strength they are
able to act.
48. "Without making mistakes it is impossible, therefore, to gather the logic,
insight, knowledge,
love and wisdom necessary to develop the spirit.
49. "Truly, I say to you, the teachings of the chief priests, Pharisees and
scribes are
erroneous and false when they tell you that a mistake would be punished
by god or
Creation when, in fact, the mistake serves the insight and knowledge, and
hence the
progress, of the spirit.
50. "Therefore there is no punishable mistake, if it serves the insight,
knowledge
and progress of the spirit; likewise, there is no inheritable mistake or
punishment
in this world or another world.
51. "Punishment of such a mistake would contradict all the laws of nature and
thus all the
laws of Creation.
52. "When one makes a mistake that serves the insight, knowledge, and progress
of the spirit,
there is no punishment, neither in this life nor in any subsequent life.
53. "Thus humans live with the mission of perfecting their spirits and
obtaining insight and
knowledge through mistakes, so that they may lead the lives for which
they were destined.
54. "Humans, however, neither learn consistently nor in accordance with the
greatness of their
spirit, which is guided by the laws of Creation and introduced to
situations that must
sequentially ensue, for they are destined. Thus humans mislead their
consciousness,
their thinking, feeling and actions; they burden themselves with guilt
and expose their
inner selves to attacks from outside forces.
55. "In this manner the power of consciousness of others affects the life of
the individual,
for better or worse.
56. "Because humans at this time are beginning to think and perceive, they are
in need of
the teachings. Thus the prophets have been sent by the celestial sons to
teach humankind
about the true laws of Creation and the knowledge regarding life.
57. "But the people are still ignorant and addicted to the false laws of the
chief priests
and distorters of the scriptures. Consequently, they do not recognize the
new teachings as truth.
58. "Lacking understanding, the people curse the truth which yet must come;
they curse, stone,
kill and crucify the prophets.
59. "But since the teachings of the truth must be brought to the people, the
prophets have to
bear great burdens and suffering under the curse of the people.
60. "Just as they persecuted many prophets, they are now after my life.
61. "The prophecy of the inexorable destiny says that it shall come true for
me, insofar that I,
an innocent man, will be declared guilty.
62. "However, it will not come to pass that I am killed, but while in a state
of near-death,
I will be considered dead for three days and three nights. I will be
placed in a rock tomb,
so that the sign of Jonah will be fulfilled.
63. "My friends from faraway India, who are well versed in the art of healing,
will be my caretakers
and will help me flee from the tomb on the third day, so that I then may
finish my mission
among the people of India.
64. "It shall come to pass that I will attain a certain insight, increase my
knowledge and
generate a new strength in spirit and consciousness."
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus...fact or fiction |
27 Jan 2006 09:08:02 AM |
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Is Talmud Jmmanuel a Jewish text? I am not familiar with it,
v
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus...fact or fiction |
24 Jan 2006 08:17:18 PM |
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There is simply NO objective verifiable evidence that Jesus the god ever
existed. Even the Bibles are totally unclear and contradictory on the birth
and life of
Jesus.
Just ask yourself these questions.
Why did an all powerful god creator wait 100,000 years to come to earth to
preach his wishes and command and save man from the sins that god himself
created?
Why did he come to earth in such a ludicrous fashion?
Born of a virgin mother in a cold manger when he was able to create Adam
from dust and Eve from Adam's rib?
Why did he live an inconsequential life for 30 years and then for only a
year or two preach his wishes and commands to only a miniscule portion of
his creations in a very small area in the Middle East? If man can
communicate with the whole world by TV, Radio and phone, certainly any real
god could do equally well.
Why did he suffer the pain and humiliation of dieing an ignominious death on
a cross between thieves?
He supposedly did this to atone for man's sins which he created and which he
could have forgiven with a wave of his hand directly from his heaven without
all this blood and gore.
There is NO evidence that man is any better off since his visit than he was
before.
Why has he declined to communicate directly with his creations for the past
2,000 years? Why does he permit the propagation of hundreds of other gods
and beliefs in his world???
Why are there NO original documents from the time of his claimed existence.
Why are all the claimed documents(The Bibles) copies of copies etc. produced
by errant men that did not live during his claimed existence? And men of
unknown and questionable veracity? Does this look like the work of an all
powerful god creator of this vast Universe???
I think not.
"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138147944.509960.189210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Much dispute over the 'real' Jesus in recent years. Really the debate
goes back longer than that and was told it was brought up in the 19th
century. Freke wrote a book called "The Jesus Mysteries" proposing
that Jesus was created by the church to substitute their created God
for a similar pagan god that was similarly crucified and born of a
virgin. Speaking of virgins. Much discussion if Mary was a virgin, as
some theorizing she was raped by Roman soldier and the church created
an elaborate cover up to put a spin on it. Born of virgin or spin? This
is not of real import except for the ego based practitioner that must
demand things as they believe them to be. Jesus could have been born
from a cell of a frog in pond for all care. I am not attached to such
things. But, being a Christian-Buddhist it is nice to know if Jesus
really existed.
On another spiritual oriented forum the question came up that if it was
proven God was not real how would you change the way you live. Myself?
No change, for my actions would still be pointed in the direction of
peace by developing inner peace and developing inner peace in others.
You see, truth must transcends ego for it to be truth - for the truth
is that which does not change. So, it is this truth I seek with the
Christian faith. If you could summarize Christianity and the preaching
of Jesus it would be the golden rule. So this rule of reciprocity exits
outside of Jesus - as the falsification of Jesus doesn't falsify this
rule as peace generation vehicle.
For some Christians I speak with the question of authenticity all boils
down to whether the bible is real or not, with more emphasis on the new
testament than old for most Christians. The church doe not make matters
easy since it has a history of cover ups and deceits. For example it is
widely agreed upon Jesus was born in the spring and not on December 25.
The church aimed to take away the pagans from the solstice holiday so
substituted Christmas for this pagan day. They did the same with
Halloween.
Ever wonder why Christians worship on Sunday and Jews follow the
original Sabbath as the bible says? Constantine decided the worship day
for Christians to be on Sunday due to his differentiate Christians from
the Jews as well as to honor the sun god. Constantine was a new convert
to Christianity so he thought he could worship his pagan sun god and
his new Christian God on the same day.
The 4 books of the new testament were not written by first hand account
from apostles. They were handed down supposedly from apostles to the
writers, which were supposedly friends with the apostles of Jesus, so
more room for discrepancy. Furthermore, many Gnostic gospel were
destroyed or left out of the new testament due to prejudice of the
church. Also many changes and discrepancies in the bible due to
doctoring it up throughout the ages.
Would be interested in hearing FACT, pro and con about the truth behind
the existence of Jesus...what do we have IN FACT on the subject
V (Male)
For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive
spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write:
vfr44@aol.com. Any opinion expressed here is that of my own and is not
the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.
.
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Jesus...fact or fiction |
25 Jan 2006 08:51:35 AM |
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Thanks for your input. Yes, you bring up many good arguments, but the
bible reminds us that "God's way is not man's way" with such questions.
In any case, I am more interested in 'factual' information such as your
mentioned "Why are there NO original documents from the time of his
(Jesus) claimed existence"
PS: You sound like an Atheist. Are you at peace? If not then may be
something in my post below for you - atheist or not. Many of us get
blinded with labels and personal prejudices. Whenever we take it upon
ourselves to beat down, we are headed in a direction of destroying
peace. We destroy our own peace as well as others peace. As such, I
practice from many religious and spiritual traditions without problems
or prejudices and readily look for such gifts irrespective of what
label they come under - on the contrary I am most grateful wherever I
find them. Here is an old post on this subject.
Good Luck,
V
"Our guiding light - prejudice or truth?"
I was at a religious discussion where the group was composed of a
wide spectrum of believers and non believers. One atheist said he ran
his life by the golden rule. Another person piped up that the golden
rule came from the bible, which made the atheist wince. The atheist
seemed to take pride in his self sufficiency and did not like to run
his life by anything that came out of the bible. Then when it came up
that the golden rule might be from another source than he bible the
atheist was relieved. This was a good reminder to me to examine where
my guiding light resides? Is it ego based or truth based? When the
guiding light of this atheist was not grounded in the bible he was
happy. But when it came from an area that he did not like, he was
upset. How can the same material be used to build a palace by one man,
yet only build a hovel for another? By one spiritual practitioner
seeing truth and applying it to live a life at peace. And the other
person only seeing prejudice and problems and doing nothing.
Every religion was made by man and as such every religion is imperfect
as it is run by man. Despite these imperfections, each religion also
has many "perfection's" within it as well. We can still be open to
peace generating tools from any of the religions and spiritual
traditions that are available to us if we are serious about being at
peace. This requires us to run our life by truth and not by prejudice.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: =93Therefore, whatever you want
men to do to you, do also to them=94 (Matthew 7:12). Nowadays this verse
is commonly referred to as =93The Golden Rule,=94 and is more commonly
quoted as: =93Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.=94 I've
been told this concept is much older than the bible. Here are a few
sources Snipped from Wikipedia
[url=3Dhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity]http://en.wikipedi=
a=2Eorg/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity[/url]
~1970-1640 BCE "Do for one who may do for you, / That you may cause him
thus to do." - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110, Ancient Egypt,
tr. R.B. Parkinson.
* ~700 BCE "That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another
whatever is not good for its own self." - Dadistan-i-Dinik 94:5,
Zoroastrianism.
* ? BCE "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." -
Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29, Zoroastrianism.
* ~550 BCE "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your
countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD." - Tanakh, new
JPS translation, Leviticus 19:18, Judaism.
* ~500 BCE "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find
hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5:18, Buddhism.
Now, whether you believe in God or believe in Jesus or are an atheist
or Buddhist does this wisdom not apply to you? This truth is universal
in nature. In this case, you can adopt a peace generating tool and
apply it to your life irrespective of your religious beliefs or lack
thereof. Wisdom for living a life at peace is all around us for the
taking. But many of us get blinded with labels and personal prejudices.
Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down, we are headed in a
direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as
others peace. As such, I practice from many religious and spiritual
traditions without problems or prejudices and readily look for such
gifts irrespective of what label they come under - on the contrary I am
most grateful wherever I find them. If I am not able to use a concept,
I leave it alone, but do not spend my time or energies to beat others
down. Do we like to be beaten down?
I saw some paintings in a Japanese museum that showed a cousin of the
Buddha being of great power and to show his strength he went up to a
baby elephant and pushed it down to the ground. A second painting
showed the Buddha helping this baby elephant back up to his feet and
the Buddha lifted the elephant high up over his head and said, "It is
much better to uplift - than to tear down." Whether this is a true
story or not I do not know. But we can all benefit from uplifting
rather than destroying. I see this predisposition to destruction many
times in responses I receive from my posts. The critiques offer much in
the line of 'no goods' but they seldom do they offer any substantive
tools to finding peace. Maybe I do not have it '100% right' but I have
it 'right enough' to be able to be at peace if I apply these
principles. If I wailed for perfection, I would never act. I use the
tools at hand.
Aristotle ~ "It is the mark of an educated mind to rest satisfied with
the degree of precision which the nature of the subject admits and not
to seek exactness where only an approximation is possible."
This being able to 'rest satisfied' is something the perfectionists
lack and why they will never be at peace until they stop collecting
concepts and start using the concepts of peace generation. Their
practice is ego based, mine is practice based. We can examine our
writing to see what useful tools for finding peace we offer others or
is all our efforts to beat others down? When you practice peace
promotion you will reap inner peace promotion. When you practice
destroying others peace you will reap self destruction of inner peace.
This is karma in action, this is the bible, 'reap as yea sow,' this is
universal truth.
A Gnostic list member wrote: "... a glance at history shows that the
Golden Rule hasn't made Christians especially peaceful."
V writes:
Yes, this is true and it proves the point that knowledge without
application is useless. It also confirms the 'eightfold path of
Buddhism' that reminds us of the right ways to peace. When I read this
persons comments further I could see the path they had chosen for
themselves. While they are most knowledgeable about religion, much more
so than myself, they seemed to lack the ability to 'apply' this
knowledge and wisdom to finding inner peace for themselves. In short
they used their vast knowledge to beat down with instead of to build
up.
The Muslims have a practice of praying five times a day to Allah. For
those that do not know, Allah is the same God of the Jews and of the
Old Testament that the Christians worship. The Muslims pray at sun up,
when the sun is at its zenith at noon, when the sun is part way down in
the afternoon, when the sun sets and when they go to bed. Even though I
am a Christian and not a Muslim, I borrowed from the Muslim's prayer
schedule to use as a reminder for my own prayers. If you are an Atheist
you can borrow the Muslim's prayer schedule to be mindful of
"gratitude" in your life - you can commune with the universe for all
the good that that has been given to you at these same prayer times the
Muslims use. If you do not want to develop a practice of gratitude,
then what about using it as a reminder 5 times a day to relax your
breath, practice mindfulness and bring your thoughts back to the
present moment? When you have come to a point of gratitude for being
able to open your eyes in the morning and being able to take a breath
of air everything else is just gravy so to speak. Gratitude plays an
important part with finding inner peace, just as being mindful of the
present moment and being aware of anything that causes this mindfulness
to wander.
In response to the paragraph on Muslims prayer schedule the Gnostic
list member writes:" ...or you can tell the universe to go f... itself
five times a day for all the evil it does to its creatures."
V writes:
I can thank the Gnostic list member for again confirming that
knowledge, no matter how great, is useless without application.
Egocentricity and entitlement...the 12 and 12 of AA reminds us, many of
us think God is Santa Claus and must come through with our demands,
just as we did as greedy children making up a long, impossible list for
Santa to fill. Can you imagine if everyone's prayers were answered
according to our self centered and conflicting demands? Everyone would
be billionaires, some would sprout wings and fly or grow gills and live
underwater and no one would grow old. Death...no one would ever
die...except ones "enemies" that the misguided might prayer for to die.
This is not how the world and spiritual laws work. In the bible it
reminds us that God's way is not man's way, and we can all be very
grateful for that, as we can see what has happened when demigods take
power on earth. Many women say they can't understand men, just as many
men say they can't understand women. Well, to further distill this we
can say that God's way is not man's way and man's way is not woman's
way. Every creature has it's way and when you can come to peace with
this you will have an easier time of it. To start on your peace journey
look for insight into the other creatures suffering and problems. This
technique comes from my Buddhist practice. This is easier to do with
men or women than with God. But it can still be done non the same with
your higher power, as I mentioned above with the impossibility of
satisfying all the demands of a selfish and conflicting world.
The 12 and 12 also reminds us that believing in God or a Higher Power
requires "reliance and not defiance." Once we have this reliance and
lose the defiance we can develop "faith that works under all
conditions" and we come to realize that "our whole trouble had been a
misuse of willpower. We tried to bombard our problems with it instead
of attempting to bring it into agreement with God's or our Higher
Power's intention for us." There never is a good time for most of us to
die, yet we all come under natural law and must die. so making
egocentric demands on God to bypass natural law to be immortal is not
realistic. My earlier post called "The Definition of a Miracle is the
Suspension of Natural Law" discussed this issue. Whenever I pray I
always end it with step 11 - "Praying only for knowledge of God's /
higher Powers will and the power to carry it out." I take it out of my
hands and turn it over to God. Developing gratitude is very helpful
with recovery work. It is a common fault with humans that they look for
an enemy to blame their problems on as the Gnostic critic does. We must
always remember that all problems are created in the mind and our
problems are individual as well. Sometimes there is someone to blame
for these problems which is usually us. Other times it is just how
things are and no one is to blame. When you stop looking for an enemy
to blame for your problems on you have made a big breakthrough with
finding acceptance and peace. The universe does not discriminate
against us...we do the discriminating.
A group of Catholic nuns has a motto of "Charity, Simplicity and
Humility." Are these not all qualities we can benefit from whether Jew,
Protestant or Atheists? If we think not, then what about developing
peace from the opposite end of the spectrum by using Selfishness,
Complex Living and Pride? Well, all these qualities whether they be the
first group or the second are needed for a balanced life. The key here
is that of balance and not to get too far in the extreme territory -
for even though water and air are life sustaining necessities, too much
of them will still kill us. The point I am trying to make is this; no
need to discriminate or form prejudices against other religions - just
take what you can apply from these spiritual traditions and use it in
your own life to develop peace and contentment within yourself - all it
takes is being honest, open and willing.
One time I asked an old Catholic priest if he ever studied about
Buddhism when he was training in the seminary. He scowled at me like I
was the devil shaking his head and quickly walking away from me. If he
was a little more open minded to finding inner peace he might have been
able to adopt a few peace generating tools from the Buddhists. Many
monotheists believe that Buddhists worship the Buddha like he was a God
/ god. Well, some do, the misguided ones, but the Buddha was just a
human, like the rest of us. Some misguided Christians worship the Pope
or a favorite saint, so this worshiping of humans is not limited to the
Buddhists. Before leaving his family and princely life for that of a
renunciate, the Buddha was Prince Siddhartha of India. Some of
Siddhartha's concepts were borrowed from the Hindu's. He added a few
things and now other spiritual practitioners are borrowing them from
him. Catholic priests are not exempt from being at peace either as the
recent headlines shows. With just a little open mindedness, that old
priest could have made use of many easily adopted peace generating
tools from Buddhism. If you look into your own life, you will see
anyone can make use of these 3 pillars of Buddhism that are common to
all schools of Buddhist practice. Such tools are available to all
irrespective of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. What is
stopping you from your life of inner peace?
1- Practicing mindfulness and meditation to develop peace and self
awareness of our own true nature.
2- Accepting the liberating wisdom of impermanence and practicing
non-clinging and a lessening of craving and desires.
3- The development of compassion for others.
When the Gnostic list member responded to my detailing the 3 pillars
they wrote: "...interesting to see what your prejudices led to you
exclude: Buddhism's rejection of life in this world, represented in
practical terms by the goal of avoiding re-birth. Not one word about
that from you."
V writes:
As I said earlier I practice from most spiritual paths. I take what
works for my peace promotion and let alone what does not. All Buddhists
do not work to extinguish reincarnation. The Gnostic critic makes the
mistake of thinking in black or white only with no shades of gray which
is what this post is all about BEING OPEN TO PEACE GENERATING TOOLS
AROUND US FOR THE TAKING. Or rejecting, as we see fit. With response to
'Not one word about that from you." I can include and exclude what I
wish. You do not pay me to write for you. I did not intend this to be a
book on Buddhism. If you wish something written in a certain fashion
then you write it yourslef or hire someone to write as you wish. But to
get back to the 3 pillars - what is holding you back from them other
than your own prejudices?
If the Gnostic list member had bothered to read my post without the
thoughts of finding 'what is wrong' with it instead of 'what is right'
with it he would have read 'The point I am trying to make is this; no
need to discriminate or form prejudices against other religions - just
take what you can apply from these spiritual traditions and use it in
your own life to develop peace and contentment within yourself - all it
takes is being honest, open and willing." Not one word about adopting
useful tools from the Gnostic to paraphrase him.
Sure tearing others down appeals to ones ego and pride, but so did
torturing insects when we were kids. When we grow up we need a
different way to find self worth. As you instill seeds of peace within
others you plant the same seeds and water these seeds within you as
well. As you give so you receive. Whenever we take it upon ourselves
to beat down others, we are headed in a direction of destroying peace.
We destroy our own peace as well as others peace. It takes no energy
from me to pass something by and leave it alone in peace. But it takes
my energy as well as my peace to pick something up to destroy it.
The Gnostic gospel of Thomas was not included in the New Testament due
to prejudice. Jesus' quote in Thomas's gospel sums up man's quest for
enlightenment very succinctly in an almost eastern like fashion.
"The disciples asked Jesus, when will the kingdom come? Jesus replied,
'The kingdom will not come by watching for it. It will not be said -
look here or look there. Rather, the kingdom of heaven is spread out
upon the earth and men do not see it."
The seeds of enlightenment are all around us - we only have to seek the
truth and come to peace within to realize this.
V (Male)
For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive
spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write:
vfr44@aol.com. Any opinion expressed here is that of my own and is not
the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.
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