| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
20 Mar 2005 11:02:08 PM |
| Object: |
Jewish believer in the Shroud |
Analysis: Jewish believer in the Shroud
By Uwe Siemon-Netto
UPI Religious Affairs Editor
Washington, DC, Mar. 18 (UPI) -- Science photographer Barrie Schwortz
considers it ironic that he, an Orthodox Jew, is spending much of his
time trying to convince Christians that the Turin Shroud may well be an
artifact of Jesus.
As Christendom is entering the holiest season in the church year,
Schwortz joined a group of international scholars Friday appealing to
Cardinal Severino Poletto, archbishop of Turin, to permit a new carbon
dating of the 14-foot cloth bearing the features of a crucified man.
At the last test of this kind in 1988, a majority of scientists
concluded that the Shroud was woven between 1260 and 1390 A.D. -- and
that the images on it were the work of a medieval artist.
But earlier this year chemist Raymond N. Rogers, a retired fellow of
Los Alamos National Laboratory, stated in a scientific paper that the
1988 test was "not valid for determining the age of the Shroud."
Rogers who died of cancer March 9 at the age of 80 was a close friend
of Schwortz who runs an elaborate Web site called shroud.com. In a
scholarly article in the journal Thermochimica Acta, Rogers explained
that in 1988 only a sample the size of a postage stamp was tested.
This sample, he added, turned out to have been taken from a medieval
patch that had "completely different chemical properties than the main
part of the Shroud relic."
The patch contained cotton and had been dyed to match the rest of the
Shroud whose threads were pure linen spun from flax. Rogers, a
Protestant who had been involved with the Shroud project for decades,
suggested that this cloth is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.
Rogers was the leader of the chemistry group for the Shroud of Turin
Research Project, a team of scientists who performed the first in-depth
examination of the cloth in 1978.
Schwortz was STURP's "documenting photographer" then. "I am still
Jewish," he said, "yet I believe the Shroud of Turin is the cloth the
man Jesus was wrapped in after he was crucified."
"That is not meant as a religious statement," Schwortz cautioned, "but
one based on my privileged position of direct involvement with many of
the serious Shroud researchers in the world, and a thorough knowledge
of the scientific data, unclouded by media exaggeration and hype."
In an interview with United Press International, Schwortz quipped it
was "proof of God's sense of humor" that he as a Jew should have been
given this task. "But I have no underlying bias. I am simply obligated
to the truth."
But then, Schwortz went on, "God always chooses a Jew to be a
messenger."
There was no word from Cardinal Poletto's office Friday about the
scholars' request to reconsider proposal submitted by Rogers and
William Meacham, a Hong Kong-based archaeologist for a new carbon
dating of the Shroud.
"After the publication of Rogers' article this year, there has been a
great renewal of interest in the Shroud, especially the possibility
that it is older than the carbon dating indicates," the scientists'
appeal states.
"All the world now wants to know whether the 1988 carbon dating result
is in fact erroneous. We urge you, therefore, to grant the very small
(amount) of material requested in the Rogers-Meacham proposal,
consisting of 60 milligrams (about a spoonful) of carbon dust and fiber
bits already removed from the Shroud."
In separate interviews with UPI, both Schwortz and Meacham complained
about what Schwortz termed as "Italian stonewalling" of all outside
attempts to reopen the case.
"Is it Italian pride?" Schwortz wondered, adding that there has been
considerable resentment about the American involvement since 1978.
"Americans dominated Shroud science," he said.
Cardinal Poletto could not be reached for comment Friday.
But Rogers and his colleagues were not spared the wrath of fellow
Americans. Earlier this week, scientific consultant Steven D.
Shafersman accused STRP of "shoddy science."
In a paper issued on The Skeptic World Site, a largely atheist Web
publication, Shafersman blasts STURP for its "hopelessly incompetent
and unscientific" analyses.
In the meantime though, other astonishing news is coming in about the
Shroud. University of Padua researchers have detected a second facial
image, though faint, on the back of the cloth.
According to researcher Daniel Porter, the nature of this second face
is such that it virtually eliminates artistic methods, while giving
credence to the hypothesis that a natural amino/carbonyl chemical
reaction formed the Shroud's images.
Italian police experts have, meanwhile, used a computer to create a
phantom picture of the young Jesus based on the facial images found on
the Shroud. The result was the face of a 12-year-old boy exuding serene
cheerfulness.
The face looked much like the portrayal of the young Jesus by the
German Renaissance painter Albrecht Duerer (1471-1528), observed the
Milan newspaper, Corriere della Sera. On the other hand, the paper
mused, "it would probably also have pleased Tizian (Titian)."
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Jewish believer in the Shroud |
21 Mar 2005 03:08:02 AM |
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<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111381328.933893.123700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Analysis: Jewish believer in the Shroud
By Uwe Siemon-Netto
UPI Religious Affairs Editor
Washington, DC, Mar. 18 (UPI) -- Science photographer Barrie Schwortz
considers it ironic that he, an Orthodox Jew, is spending much of his
time trying to convince Christians that the Turin Shroud may well be an
artifact of Jesus.
There's stupid Jews same as every other group.
My own estimate of the shroud's age was off by only a hundred years.
It was so obviously a light acid art tevchnique from the time period that
they judged it that I can't imagine why anyone ever thought it was anything
else.
Susan
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Jewish believer in the Shroud |
21 Mar 2005 08:29:28 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote
My own estimate of the shroud's age was off by only a hundred years.
It was so obviously a light acid art tevchnique from the time period that
they judged it that I can't imagine why anyone ever thought it was
anything else.
Then make one. Or shaddap.
You know nothing about art technique.
BAM
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| User: "Riain Barton/ריעין ברתון" |
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| Title: Re: Jewish believer in the Shroud |
21 Mar 2005 04:54:09 PM |
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*****-Off BAM-BAM!
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:QOA%d.44986$Q83.22516@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
:
: "Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote
:
:
: > My own estimate of the shroud's age was off by only a hundred years.
: > It was so obviously a light acid art tevchnique from the time period
that
: > they judged it that I can't imagine why anyone ever thought it was
: > anything else.
:
: Then make one. Or shaddap.
:
: You know nothing about art technique.
:
: BAM
:
:
:
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Jewish believer in the Shroud |
21 Mar 2005 06:50:42 PM |
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"Riain Barton/ריעין ברתון" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:y9I%d.44176$c72.683@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
*****-Off BAM-BAM!
Just how desperate is she?
(Yes, that was a rhetorical question)
Susan
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:QOA%d.44986$Q83.22516@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
:
: "Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote
:
:
: > My own estimate of the shroud's age was off by only a hundred years.
: > It was so obviously a light acid art tevchnique from the time period
that
: > they judged it that I can't imagine why anyone ever thought it was
: > anything else.
:
: Then make one. Or shaddap.
:
: You know nothing about art technique.
:
: BAM
:
:
:
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| User: "Riain Barton/ריעין ברתון" |
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| Title: Re: Jewish believer in the Shroud |
21 Mar 2005 04:53:41 PM |
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A team of scientist studied it and did every test available and said
they thought it was not possible to be old enough to be around during
the first century!
"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:S9w%d.13623$UV2.5317@trnddc04...
:
: <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote in message
: news:1111381328.933893.123700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
: > Analysis: Jewish believer in the Shroud
: >
: >
: > By Uwe Siemon-Netto
: > UPI Religious Affairs Editor
: >
: >
: > Washington, DC, Mar. 18 (UPI) -- Science photographer Barrie
Schwortz
: > considers it ironic that he, an Orthodox Jew, is spending much of
his
: > time trying to convince Christians that the Turin Shroud may well be
an
: > artifact of Jesus.
:
: There's stupid Jews same as every other group.
: My own estimate of the shroud's age was off by only a hundred years.
: It was so obviously a light acid art tevchnique from the time period
that
: they judged it that I can't imagine why anyone ever thought it was
anything
: else.
:
: Susan
:
:
.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Jewish believer in the Shroud |
22 Mar 2005 08:22:34 AM |
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"Riain Barton/ריעין ברתון" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:69I%d.44175$c72.474@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
A team of scientist studied it and did every test available and said
they thought it was not possible to be old enough to be around during
the first century!
You changed the subject Irish Jew boy.
"Stu" said it was a painting.
BAM
"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:S9w%d.13623$UV2.5317@trnddc04...
:
: <stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote in message
: news:1111381328.933893.123700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
: > Analysis: Jewish believer in the Shroud
: >
: >
: > By Uwe Siemon-Netto
: > UPI Religious Affairs Editor
: >
: >
: > Washington, DC, Mar. 18 (UPI) -- Science photographer Barrie
Schwortz
: > considers it ironic that he, an Orthodox Jew, is spending much of
his
: > time trying to convince Christians that the Turin Shroud may well be
an
: > artifact of Jesus.
:
: There's stupid Jews same as every other group.
: My own estimate of the shroud's age was off by only a hundred years.
: It was so obviously a light acid art tevchnique from the time period
that
: they judged it that I can't imagine why anyone ever thought it was
anything
: else.
:
: Susan
:
:
.
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| User: "Riain Barton/ריעין ברתון" |
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| Title: Re: Jewish believer in the Shroud |
21 Mar 2005 12:00:30 AM |
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Some people will do anything for a bit of fame...
<stevejdufour@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111381328.933893.123700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
: Analysis: Jewish believer in the Shroud
:
:
: By Uwe Siemon-Netto
: UPI Religious Affairs Editor
:
:
: Washington, DC, Mar. 18 (UPI) -- Science photographer Barrie Schwortz
: considers it ironic that he, an Orthodox Jew, is spending much of his
: time trying to convince Christians that the Turin Shroud may well be
an
: artifact of Jesus.
:
:
: As Christendom is entering the holiest season in the church year,
: Schwortz joined a group of international scholars Friday appealing to
: Cardinal Severino Poletto, archbishop of Turin, to permit a new carbon
: dating of the 14-foot cloth bearing the features of a crucified man.
:
: At the last test of this kind in 1988, a majority of scientists
: concluded that the Shroud was woven between 1260 and 1390 A.D. -- and
: that the images on it were the work of a medieval artist.
:
: But earlier this year chemist Raymond N. Rogers, a retired fellow of
: Los Alamos National Laboratory, stated in a scientific paper that the
: 1988 test was "not valid for determining the age of the Shroud."
:
: Rogers who died of cancer March 9 at the age of 80 was a close friend
: of Schwortz who runs an elaborate Web site called shroud.com. In a
: scholarly article in the journal Thermochimica Acta, Rogers explained
: that in 1988 only a sample the size of a postage stamp was tested.
:
: This sample, he added, turned out to have been taken from a medieval
: patch that had "completely different chemical properties than the main
: part of the Shroud relic."
:
: The patch contained cotton and had been dyed to match the rest of the
: Shroud whose threads were pure linen spun from flax. Rogers, a
: Protestant who had been involved with the Shroud project for decades,
: suggested that this cloth is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.
:
: Rogers was the leader of the chemistry group for the Shroud of Turin
: Research Project, a team of scientists who performed the first
in-depth
: examination of the cloth in 1978.
:
: Schwortz was STURP's "documenting photographer" then. "I am still
: Jewish," he said, "yet I believe the Shroud of Turin is the cloth the
: man Jesus was wrapped in after he was crucified."
:
: "That is not meant as a religious statement," Schwortz cautioned, "but
: one based on my privileged position of direct involvement with many of
: the serious Shroud researchers in the world, and a thorough knowledge
: of the scientific data, unclouded by media exaggeration and hype."
:
: In an interview with United Press International, Schwortz quipped it
: was "proof of God's sense of humor" that he as a Jew should have been
: given this task. "But I have no underlying bias. I am simply obligated
: to the truth."
:
: But then, Schwortz went on, "God always chooses a Jew to be a
: messenger."
:
: There was no word from Cardinal Poletto's office Friday about the
: scholars' request to reconsider proposal submitted by Rogers and
: William Meacham, a Hong Kong-based archaeologist for a new carbon
: dating of the Shroud.
:
: "After the publication of Rogers' article this year, there has been a
: great renewal of interest in the Shroud, especially the possibility
: that it is older than the carbon dating indicates," the scientists'
: appeal states.
:
: "All the world now wants to know whether the 1988 carbon dating result
: is in fact erroneous. We urge you, therefore, to grant the very small
: (amount) of material requested in the Rogers-Meacham proposal,
: consisting of 60 milligrams (about a spoonful) of carbon dust and
fiber
: bits already removed from the Shroud."
:
: In separate interviews with UPI, both Schwortz and Meacham complained
: about what Schwortz termed as "Italian stonewalling" of all outside
: attempts to reopen the case.
:
: "Is it Italian pride?" Schwortz wondered, adding that there has been
: considerable resentment about the American involvement since 1978.
: "Americans dominated Shroud science," he said.
:
: Cardinal Poletto could not be reached for comment Friday.
:
: But Rogers and his colleagues were not spared the wrath of fellow
: Americans. Earlier this week, scientific consultant Steven D.
: Shafersman accused STRP of "shoddy science."
:
: In a paper issued on The Skeptic World Site, a largely atheist Web
: publication, Shafersman blasts STURP for its "hopelessly incompetent
: and unscientific" analyses.
:
: In the meantime though, other astonishing news is coming in about the
: Shroud. University of Padua researchers have detected a second facial
: image, though faint, on the back of the cloth.
:
: According to researcher Daniel Porter, the nature of this second face
: is such that it virtually eliminates artistic methods, while giving
: credence to the hypothesis that a natural amino/carbonyl chemical
: reaction formed the Shroud's images.
:
: Italian police experts have, meanwhile, used a computer to create a
: phantom picture of the young Jesus based on the facial images found on
: the Shroud. The result was the face of a 12-year-old boy exuding
serene
: cheerfulness.
:
: The face looked much like the portrayal of the young Jesus by the
: German Renaissance painter Albrecht Duerer (1471-1528), observed the
: Milan newspaper, Corriere della Sera. On the other hand, the paper
: mused, "it would probably also have pleased Tizian (Titian)."
:
.
|
|
|
| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Jewish believer in the Shroud |
21 Mar 2005 03:11:13 AM |
|
|
"Riain Barton/ריעין ברתון" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:rgt%d.38586$6g7.15540@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
Some people will do anything for a bit of fame...
& how convenient that the thread was taken from a patch.
Who picked the thread in the first place?
At any rate, the last paragraph alone should convince anyone that it's a
fake.
Susan
:
: The face looked much like the portrayal of the young Jesus by the
: German Renaissance painter Albrecht Duerer (1471-1528), observed the
: Milan newspaper, Corriere della Sera. On the other hand, the paper
: mused, "it would probably also have pleased Tizian (Titian)."
:
.
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| User: "Lynn K. Circle" |
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| Title: Re: Jewish believer in the Shroud |
27 Mar 2005 11:13:30 AM |
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Where's the beef? One could certainly be Jewish and have an opinion about
the age of this cloth WITHOUT that having any religious significance. The
age of the cloth still does NOT mean it is not some sort of fake or EVEN if
it is not a fake, that the man enshrouded within it was anything other than
a rebellious itinerant Jewish rabbi.
--
Lynn K. Circle
NRA, TSRA, American Legion
Happily Jewish
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