On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:41:33 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Cleo" <Cleo@mailinator.com> shouted thusly:

"Azaliah" <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ui45m2ho31s78mfghd9rgih9fg9e06vbg5@4ax.com...

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:50:15 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Cleo" <Cleo@mailinator.com> shouted thusly:

I have not the slightist idea what you were talking about,

I disagree, since you took the time to dodge it. (:

Has all the things mentioned in the preseding verses of Matthew 24

P.S.: I just wanted to say thanks to you for trying to stay
more on topic in your latest response and my latest response
was really not meant to be mean. I know it may seem to be
a bit rude and I apologize. I was only seeking to be direct
and was not trying to take the same tone that I did in my
first response to you.

I do think however, that as I pointed out, you are wandering
from the point and the passages that I quoted. But at least
you're closer and in the right general area now. :)

--

Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"

<((>< <((>< <((><

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 07:41:33 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Cleo" <Cleo@mailinator.com> shouted thusly:

"Azaliah" <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ui45m2ho31s78mfghd9rgih9fg9e06vbg5@4ax.com...

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:50:15 -0600, while bungee jumping,
"Cleo" <Cleo@mailinator.com> shouted thusly:

I have not the slightist idea what you were talking about,

I disagree, since you took the time to dodge it. (:

Cleo, when you claim to be responding and yet, do not
respond to what I post, but rather, ask questions based
on other passages, like "when did 1/3 of the trees...",
then you are not being honest. I never mentioned trees.
And don't bother telling me how the Bible says it and so,
it is a reasonable response. The Bible also says that we
should wear clothes all of one type of cloth. That doesn't
matter, since I'm not talking about that.

I.e.; An avoidance maneuver is not an honest response.

Now believe it or not, I do not wish to argue with you.
But until you are ready to RESPOND DIRECTLY AND
SPECIFICALLY to what I posted, then we have nothing
to talk about.

And frankly, you insult my intelligence when you play
dumb and pretend that you don't know what I'm talking
about when I say that. (:

And yes, this is the typical M.O. of the Futurist. In fact,
in the last three days, I have started three threads about
certain events and about the dating of Revelation and in
all three threads, what I got was people saying...

"Oh yea?! Well, when did 'X' happen?! You're wrong!"

This is simply ridiculous!!! These same people, which
includes you, wish to claim (but only when it comes
to this subject), that responding by asking questions
that aren't even related to what I posted, are in fact,
responses to what I posted.

And this tells me very clearly that they can't dispute what
has been posted and that they know it and so, try to throw
what they think are unanswerable questions (i.e., it couldn't
have happened yet, because 1/3 of the trees aren't gone),
which they ask thinking they know what they're talking about,
but don't.

Now here is what I posted. And if you wish to discuss this
in a civil manner, then I am more than ready. But I do *not*
start threads, just to respond to a response that completely
ignores what I posted!

Now if you wish to respond SPECIFICALLY to what I posted,
then please do and we can discuss it. Questions and comments
are welcome, UNLESS they ignore the specific information and
points that I posted! If they do, then I am not interested in
any discussion with that person!

I do not respond to a thread which mentions rape statistics,
for example, by asking what kind of car the person drives
and then claim that their statistics are wrong, because they
don't drive a Ford.

I.e., If you want to talk about something else, then why
bother posting it and pretending that it's a response to
what I posted, when we both know damn well that it isn't? (:

Are you starting to get it now? If you're not responding
specifically about what I posted, then go start another
thread and talk about your trees, if you wish.

If the discussion ends up leading to those other passages
that you quoted, then that's fine. But to think that typing
about trees somehow refutes my post about the Jewish
War, is ridiculous at best! (:

And frankly Cleo, how many times do I have to tell you
about doing this sort of thing? So far, it has been
EVERY TIME!!!

Now either you are intentionally ignoring what I actually
posted, or you are one stupid woman. Either way, you
give me no reason whatsoever to bother with you, unless
you change your M.O..

Now you decide which one you are, but if it is the former,
then you are dishonest and you need to repent of that
and get honest right quick! And if it is the latter, then
nothing I can say to you is going to make you understand
what "responding ON POINT" means.

I will assume, even though it has been a dozen times that
you have done this, that you will respond to my words quoted
below, honestly and on point and that you're not really
this stupid. And you can redeem yourself and prove yourself,
by doing just that!

So you decide, Cleo. Feel free to disagree with what I posted
and feel free to question it. In fact, if you can convince me
that what you believe is right, then I will convert to what
you believe. But DO NOT feel free, to ignore what I said
AND then pretend that you have responded on point!

Now here is what I posted. Respond to the words you
actually see below, or go talk to someone else, please.
I don't waste my time trying to have a conversation
with someone who's going to ignore everything I post
anyway.

But again, I welcome a discussion with you, if IT IS
ON POINT!


*****************************************************
For your consideration:

Does the Bible say that Jerusalem wins, or loses,
in the final battle?

Zechariah 14:1-2

1) Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2) For I will gather all the nations to battle against
Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses
rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city
shall go into captivity

Luke 21:20-22

20) But when you see JERUSALEM surrounded by armies,
then know that its desolation is near.
21) Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,
let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not
those who are in the country enter her.
22) For these are the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS
which are WRITTEN may BE FULFILLED.

What proof do you have that the two Scripture verses above is talking

the same war? and what correlation does the Scripture verse below

24:34) have, if any, with the two above?

Jesus made this statement prior to the war and then the war
happened exactly where He said it would and within the same
generation.

What proof do you have that given what He said, I should
skip this war altogether and assume that Jesus was really
saying that they shouldn't bother, because it's all about
Cleo's time?

"Assuredly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION will by no means
pass away till all these things take place." - Matthew 24:34

Has all the things mentioned in the preseding verses of Matthew 24

Yes, they have. But that isn't the subject here. You keep
wanting to get away from the subject and think that it's
my job to prove everything about everything to you, in
each and every post. The subject here is what Jesus said
in the passages that I posted and the fact that it did happen.

Now you can try to jump around from one thing to the next,
but how will that prove me wrong? With all due respect,
a proper response is a response that is specific to what
I posted. To jump around and say, "What about this?
And this?", only shows that you realize that you haven't
got an argument against what I posted. And if you can't
dispute what I posted, then why not just agree? Why try
to argue other points, which have nothing to do with it?

This has been discussed before and you have explained how the Preterist

this Scripture, but three Scriptures an opinion does not prove, as truth.

And unrelated questions do not disprove a thing.

The OT prophecies speak of the destruction of Jerusalem,
not its victory, as the Futurists claim.

The reality is, that Jesus said:

1) Judea would be attacked.
2) Jerusalem would be desolated.
3) That when this happened, it meant that
all things written, were fulfilled.

Historical facts:

1) The Roman armies came up through Judea
and took the fortified cities, so that when
they reached Jerusalem, the Jewish armies
could not come up behind them.
2) The Roman armies attacked Jerusalem and
desolated it, burning it and the Temple as
well and tore the Temple down, stone by
stone, just as Jesus said would happen,
in Matthew 24. I provided a map that shows
the path that the Roman armies took.
3) There were famines, earthquakes, wars
and the Gospel was preached to the world
and all of these things are listed right in
the NT, as having happened. But that is
a separate subject.

Now there is no reason whatsoever to claim that when Jesus
said that the destruction would happen within that generation,
that it didn't, given that the destruction did happen.

You have to convince me why I should skip it and think it's
all about now.

That is the main reason that I posted what I did in the previous post
because the point of Preterism is that Jesus came back in 70AD, but if

take the other Scriptures that pretains to the end times a whole

view of the end times comes out of the shadows.

No, it doesn't. But this is why you may never realize that.
Because you refuse to focus on one thing at a time. You
pretend that ignoring what is posted and asking a bunch
of questions about other passages, equals a proper response
to the information actually posted. And in reality, all you
offer, is your interpretation of these other passages and
you pretend that the Bible says it exactly as you do.
Futurists are great for pretending that their doctrine
is listed the way they say it, word for word in Scripture. (:

You see Cleo, it won't matter how well I answer any of
your questions. Because your response will be to ignore
that and ask about other passages and you will repeat
this every time.

CLEO: What about this? (ignores what was posted)

AZALIAH: Gives answer.

CLEO: What about this other thing? (ignores response above)

AZALIAH: Gives answer.

CLEO: Then what about this over here? (ignores response given)

This is what happens, when trying to have a discussion with
a Futurist and it is very telling. It shows that they know
that the issue was answered and don't like that it didn't go
their way and so, try to change the subject.

One of the signs that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24 was the abomination

desolation. Did that sign come about before 70AD?

Thank you for proving my point. I never mentioned this.
So why bring it up?

Had it occurred to you, that if the end was to come upon
the destruction of Jerusalem and Jerusalem was destroyed,
that it means that instead of questioning me, when all I did
was post the Scripture that does indeed say that, that maybe
you should be questioning your understanding of how it
was to be fulfilled? Or is it impossible for you to be wrong?
And before you point your finger my way, remember,
I did not offer an interpretation. I stated exactly what
the passages say.

If Jesus said that the destruction of Jerusalem meant that
all things written were fulfilled and Jerusalem has been
desolated, as He said, then that means that all things
written have been fulfilled. I don't reject Jesus' words,
just because His words do not fit in with my doctrine.
Try doing it the other way around, Cleo. :)

And since this is what Jesus said, which we both know
you cannot argue, then instead of questioning Jesus,
why don't you try questioning your doctrine instead?

See further down.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of

commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be
built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not

himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the

and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto

end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the
midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even
until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth,
let him understand:)


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our

Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit,

by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,

there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son

perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that

worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing

that he is God.

Using these three Scripture verses I can not see what Titus did is what
Jesus or Daniel was referring to. In Daniel he said that this abomination
happened in the middle of the seven weeks. The order that Daniel puts it

the Temple is build first at the beginning of the week, then in the

of the week the abomination is set up in the Temple, then at the end of

week Jesus will return. Paul was very discriptive of what the abomination

in 2Thess. 2:4. Titus never set himself in the Temple as god, neither did
Caesar. So now back to your Scriptures in Zechariah 4:12 and Luke

if they are taking about the same war, which will happen in the end

then it can not be when Titus invaded Jerusalem or around the time of

because you put the Scriptures of the sign of Abomination alongside the

Scriptures then the time will be off for 70AD as when Jesus will come

The abomination of desolation that Jesus and Daniel mention and that Paul
discribed did not happen in 70AD. So 70AD can not be the time that Jesus
came back because all the signs of his coming have not taken place, and

wars that are mentioned in Zechariah and Luke have not taken place yet
either because those verses are talking about end time wars.


With that stated the verses in Revelation that I posted and the questions
that I asked can now be considered. Because as I showed above that a

sign of Jesus' coming has not come to past and these Scriptures also show
things that happen in the end times that also has not come to past since
70AD, or even during. I know what you said about the trees, but look at
verse 11 where John mention men dying because of the wormwood water. Why

he not say trees as you said he called man in verse 7?

Rev. 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire

with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of

was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning

fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had

died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven,
burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers,
and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the
waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they

made bitter.
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was

and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as

third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part

it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven,
saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth

reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are

to sound!

Questions: When are the third part of the trees destroyed? When does the
third part of the sea became blood? When does the third part of the
creatures in the sea die and a third part of the ships are destroyed?

did a third of the rivers and fountains of water become wormwood? When

the third part of the sun, moon and stars smitten? Looking back in

can not put my finger on any time that these things were done.

One thing I have been wondering since you said that Jesus came back in

why are things getting worse? I always thought that when Jesus came that
thing would become better.

At the end of Revlations where in history does the bottomless pit and the
lake of fire come in. When has Satan ever had been bound where he will
deceive the people no more for a thousand years? (Revelation 19:3)

Cleo

I'm not going to address a bunch of other passages, Cleo.
My post was very simple. I'm not going to try to explain
the whole Bible to you in a post.

You didn't even address what I posted about the "hail"
in Revelation. Nor did you really address what I posted
about Luke 21:20-22. Rather, you tried to jump to
another Gospel and ask questions about other things. (:

Now you can either be honest and stop evading the point,
or you can keep insisting that Jesus was wrong, because
you just can't imagine that it all happened, because your
vanity tells you that it has to be all about you and about
God coming to Earth to live, instead of us going to Heaven.

What ego! What vanity!

No offense, really. But this is how I see it. Your Futurist
belief is based on Dispensationalism and Dispensationalism
is founded on the idea that Jesus came to set up a physical
kingdom and was rejected by the Jews and so, His mission
failed and so, was postponed. Yes Cleo, that is the idea
that Futurism is based on!

Jesus said that it would NOT be a physical kingdom,
in Luke 17:20-21. And He didn't say, "but later it
will be". Now you can either believe Him, or not.
Your choice.

Now here are the questions that you must answer:

1) What did Jesus say would happen, in Luke 21:20-22?

2) What did He say that would mean?

3) Was Jerusalem desolated after He said it and before today?

You know the answers and you know what that means. :)

--

Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"

<((>< <((>< <((><

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
.