| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Transition Zone" |
| Date: |
19 Sep 2004 09:39:14 AM |
| Object: |
kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
Kerry served two tours in Vietnam. Live with it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salem Statesman Journal - Sep 14 2:47 AM
"Lately we have been deluged with Sen. John Kerry pontificating at
length about how President Bush "refused to serve when he had a
chance" by joining the Air National Guard, while he, Kerry, served
"two tours in Vietnam" with great distinction, thus implying that
anyone who joins the National Guard is shirking their duty to the
nation. "
.
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| User: "Reid Decker" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
21 Sep 2004 05:46:42 PM |
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Four months is "two tours"?
"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0409190639.3cc13d41@posting.google.com...
Kerry served two tours in Vietnam. Live with it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salem Statesman Journal - Sep 14 2:47 AM
"Lately we have been deluged with Sen. John Kerry pontificating at
length about how President Bush "refused to serve when he had a
chance" by joining the Air National Guard, while he, Kerry, served
"two tours in Vietnam" with great distinction, thus implying that
anyone who joins the National Guard is shirking their duty to the
nation. "
.
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| User: "Reid Decker" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
20 Sep 2004 10:55:55 AM |
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Four months is two tours?
"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0409190639.3cc13d41@posting.google.com...
Kerry served two tours in Vietnam. Live with it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salem Statesman Journal - Sep 14 2:47 AM
"Lately we have been deluged with Sen. John Kerry pontificating at
length about how President Bush "refused to serve when he had a
chance" by joining the Air National Guard, while he, Kerry, served
"two tours in Vietnam" with great distinction, thus implying that
anyone who joins the National Guard is shirking their duty to the
nation. "
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
20 Sep 2004 11:12:55 AM |
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"Reid Decker" <reidal1@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:k3D3d.10186$as2.1838@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Four months is two tours?
One complete tour on the Gridley, cruising around the South Pacific, and the
four months in Viet Nam.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
19 Sep 2004 10:02:17 AM |
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"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0409190639.3cc13d41@posting.google.com...
Kerry served two tours in Vietnam. Live with it.
No.
Kerry served one tour on a ship...which never went anywhere near Vietnam; it
was pretty much a pleasure cruise through the South Pacific. No WONDER he
signed up for a second one. Anybody would.
He served a truncated tour of four months in VietNam, during which he shot
himself twice, a naked teenager in the back once and burned down a village
belonging to civilians and noncombatants in a 'no-fire' zone. He earned a
couple of medals, and he did earn them and should be honored for that.
BUT....
He used his three purple hearts, earned for injuries that weren't serious
enough for him to miss lunch, to get out of Vietnam early so that he could
get a cushy job as an Admiral's Aid, and then got out of the service early
so he could run for office.
Then he threw his medals away and spent the last thirty five years telling
everybody how ashamed of his service he was, about the war crimes he
commited while there, and voting against funding the military.
My father, a WWII vet, has nothing but contempt for the man. HE refused
purple hearts for injuries that far exceeded anything that Kerry got. My
father had broken ankles, shrapnel in his back (that still shows up sixty
years later) broken back, ribs...he did things like pull dead gunners away
from the gun and, while his back was in ribbons from shrapnel, shoot
kamikazi pilots from the sky as they were aiming at his fully loaded
ammunitions ship.
Oh, yeah, he has a medal for that, and HE kept it. But he does NOT have a
purple heart, because he would have felt silly accepting one for an injury
that didn't, all by itself, get him sent home.
And CLINTON promised to fulfill ROTC duties in one school in order to get a
deferment, and then ducked out of keeping it.
And Bush served in the National Guard. Wow, how dishonorable of him.
And all of it happened thirty five years ago and means nothing anyway.
Certainly that's what you guys shouted when the conservatives criticised
CLINTON'S manner of avoiding the war.
.
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| User: "qwerty" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
19 Sep 2004 03:47:53 PM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Zbh3d.3479$Ii2.2457@trnddc09...
"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0409190639.3cc13d41@posting.google.com...
Kerry served two tours in Vietnam. Live with it.
No.
Kerry served one tour on a ship...which never went anywhere near Vietnam;
it
was pretty much a pleasure cruise through the South Pacific. No WONDER he
signed up for a second one. Anybody would.
Total BS! The USS Gridley & crew was awarded the Vietnam Service Medal for
service in Vietnam.
According to the most recent OPNAVNOTE 1650 (Unit Awards and Citations
Master List), USS Gridley (DLG 21) is credited with a Vietnam Service
Medal (VS) for the period 16-Mar-1968 to 29-Mar-1968 and *03-Apr-1968 to
07-May-1968*.
http://neds.nebt.daps.mil/Directives/o1650/encl3shipg.pdf
http://neds.nebt.daps.mil/Directives/o1650/abvencl1.pdf
John Kerry served on the USS Gridley from June 8, 1967 until July 20, 1968.
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service_timeline.html
Vietnam Service Medal:
Criteria: a. Awarded to all members of the Armed Forces of the United States
serving in Vietnam and contiguous waters or airspace thereover, after 3 July
1965 through 28 March 1973. Members of the Armed Forces of the United States
in Thailand, Laos, or Cambodia, or the airspace thereover, during the same
period and serving in direct support of operations in Vietnam are also
eligible for this award. To be eligible for award of the medal, individual
must- -
(1) Be attached to or regularly serve for one or more days with an
organization participating in or directly supporting military operations; or
(2) Be attached to or regularly serve for one or more days aboard a
naval vessel directly supporting military operations; or
(3) Actually participate as a crewmember in one or more aerial
flights into airspace above Vietnam and contiguous waters directly
supporting military operations; or
(4) Serve on temporary duty for 30 consecutive days or 60
nonconsecutive days in Vietnam or contiguous areas, except that the time
limit may be waived for personnel participating in actual combat operations.
b. Individuals qualified for the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal for
service in Vietnam between 1 July 1958 and 3 July 1965 shall remain
qualified for the medal. Upon request, the individual may be awarded the
Vietnam Service Medal in lieu of the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. In
such instances, the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal will be deleted from
the list of authorized medals in the individual's personnel records. No
person shall be entitled to both awards for Vietnam Service.
http://www.gruntsmilitary.com/vsm.shtml
http://www.pjsinnam.com/Medals/VS_Medals_Criteria.htm
My father, a WWII vet, has nothing but contempt for the man. HE refused
purple hearts for injuries that far exceeded anything that Kerry got. My
father had broken ankles, shrapnel in his back (that still shows up sixty
years later) broken back, ribs...he did things like pull dead gunners away
from the gun and, while his back was in ribbons from shrapnel, shoot
kamikazi pilots from the sky as they were aiming at his fully loaded
ammunitions ship.
Will Bob Dole be giving back his first purple heart medal?
And CLINTON promised to fulfill ROTC duties in one school in order to get
a
deferment, and then ducked out of keeping it.
Clinton's not running!
And Bush served in the National Guard. Wow, how dishonorable of him.
Yes, his ANG service was dishonorable!
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
19 Sep 2004 04:31:52 PM |
|
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"qwerty" <nospam@all.noway.com> wrote in message
news:Zfm3d.17436$QJ3.6975@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Zbh3d.3479$Ii2.2457@trnddc09...
"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0409190639.3cc13d41@posting.google.com...
Kerry served two tours in Vietnam. Live with it.
No.
Kerry served one tour on a ship...which never went anywhere near Vietnam;
it
was pretty much a pleasure cruise through the South Pacific. No WONDER he
signed up for a second one. Anybody would.
Total BS! The USS Gridley & crew was awarded the Vietnam Service Medal
for
service in Vietnam.
According to the most recent OPNAVNOTE 1650 (Unit Awards and Citations
Master List), USS Gridley (DLG 21) is credited with a Vietnam Service
Medal (VS) for the period 16-Mar-1968 to 29-Mar-1968 and *03-Apr-1968 to
07-May-1968*.
http://neds.nebt.daps.mil/Directives/o1650/encl3shipg.pdf
http://neds.nebt.daps.mil/Directives/o1650/abvencl1.pdf
John Kerry served on the USS Gridley from June 8, 1967 until July 20,
1968.
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service_timeline.html
Vietnam Service Medal:
Criteria: a. Awarded to all members of the Armed Forces of the United
States
serving in Vietnam and contiguous waters or airspace thereover, after 3
July
1965 through 28 March 1973. Members of the Armed Forces of the United
States
in Thailand, Laos, or Cambodia, or the airspace thereover, during the same
period and serving in direct support of operations in Vietnam are also
eligible for this award. To be eligible for award of the medal, individual
must- -
(1) Be attached to or regularly serve for one or more days with an
organization participating in or directly supporting military operations;
or
(2) Be attached to or regularly serve for one or more days aboard a
naval vessel directly supporting military operations; or
(3) Actually participate as a crewmember in one or more aerial
flights into airspace above Vietnam and contiguous waters directly
supporting military operations; or
(4) Serve on temporary duty for 30 consecutive days or 60
nonconsecutive days in Vietnam or contiguous areas, except that the time
limit may be waived for personnel participating in actual combat
operations.
b. Individuals qualified for the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal for
service in Vietnam between 1 July 1958 and 3 July 1965 shall remain
qualified for the medal. Upon request, the individual may be awarded the
Vietnam Service Medal in lieu of the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal. In
such instances, the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal will be deleted from
the list of authorized medals in the individual's personnel records. No
person shall be entitled to both awards for Vietnam Service.
Sure they supported the miltary operations. But even you can't put the
Gridley within range of any North Vietnamese gun. The Gridley was never
fired on, never came close to anywhere it COULD have been fired on, and
spent most of its time in the South Pacific, in combat theaters like French
Polynesia...Kerry hit the beach during that time, all right, but the only
damage he was in danger of was a severe sunburn. If he thought that service
in Vietnam was going to be like that, he would have been nuts not to
volunteer for a second tour.
<snip >
My father, a WWII vet, has nothing but contempt for the man. HE refused
purple hearts for injuries that far exceeded anything that Kerry got. My
father had broken ankles, shrapnel in his back (that still shows up sixty
years later) broken back, ribs...he did things like pull dead gunners
away
from the gun and, while his back was in ribbons from shrapnel, shoot
kamikazi pilots from the sky as they were aiming at his fully loaded
ammunitions ship.
Will Bob Dole be giving back his first purple heart medal?
That's completely up to Bob Dole.
But...did Bob Dole use his purple hearts to get out of combat?
(hint....the answer is 'no')
His SECOND one was for a wound for which even my father would have accepted
a purple heart.
But I'm not asking Kerry to give his purple hearts back. I don't have to. He
threw them away, remember? (shrug) After all, he got what he wanted from
them....out.
And CLINTON promised to fulfill ROTC duties in one school in order to
get
a
deferment, and then ducked out of keeping it.
Clinton's not running!
Not at the moment, no. But then neither is Bush. He DID run at the time,
however. His manipulation of the system in order to get out of any service,
including the National Guard, was about as twisty a bit of manuevering as
I've seen.
And Bush served in the National Guard. Wow, how dishonorable of him.
Yes, his ANG service was dishonorable!
Actually, it wasn't. He got an honorable discharge, he did what he was
supposed to do, and he has nothing to be ashamed of.
.
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| User: "qwerty" |
|
| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
19 Sep 2004 04:44:08 PM |
|
|
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:cVm3d.1904$Bg5.992@trnddc07...
"qwerty" <nospam@all.noway.com> wrote in message
news:Zfm3d.17436$QJ3.6975@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Zbh3d.3479$Ii2.2457@trnddc09...
"Transition Zone" <mogulah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f224cda.0409190639.3cc13d41@posting.google.com...
Kerry served two tours in Vietnam. Live with it.
No.
Kerry served one tour on a ship...which never went anywhere near
Vietnam;
it
was pretty much a pleasure cruise through the South Pacific. No WONDER
he
signed up for a second one. Anybody would.
Total BS! The USS Gridley & crew was awarded the Vietnam Service Medal
for
service in Vietnam.
According to the most recent OPNAVNOTE 1650 (Unit Awards and Citations
Master List), USS Gridley (DLG 21) is credited with a Vietnam Service
Medal (VS) for the period 16-Mar-1968 to 29-Mar-1968 and *03-Apr-1968 to
07-May-1968*.
http://neds.nebt.daps.mil/Directives/o1650/encl3shipg.pdf
http://neds.nebt.daps.mil/Directives/o1650/abvencl1.pdf
John Kerry served on the USS Gridley from June 8, 1967 until July 20,
1968.
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service_timeline.html
Vietnam Service Medal:
Criteria: a. Awarded to all members of the Armed Forces of the United
States
serving in Vietnam and contiguous waters or airspace thereover, after 3
July
1965 through 28 March 1973. Members of the Armed Forces of the United
States
in Thailand, Laos, or Cambodia, or the airspace thereover, during the
same
period and serving in direct support of operations in Vietnam are also
eligible for this award. To be eligible for award of the medal,
individual
must- -
(1) Be attached to or regularly serve for one or more days with
an
organization participating in or directly supporting military
operations;
or
(2) Be attached to or regularly serve for one or more days aboard
a
naval vessel directly supporting military operations; or
(3) Actually participate as a crewmember in one or more aerial
flights into airspace above Vietnam and contiguous waters directly
supporting military operations; or
(4) Serve on temporary duty for 30 consecutive days or 60
nonconsecutive days in Vietnam or contiguous areas, except that the time
limit may be waived for personnel participating in actual combat
operations.
b. Individuals qualified for the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal for
service in Vietnam between 1 July 1958 and 3 July 1965 shall remain
qualified for the medal. Upon request, the individual may be awarded the
Vietnam Service Medal in lieu of the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal.
In
such instances, the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal will be deleted
from
the list of authorized medals in the individual's personnel records. No
person shall be entitled to both awards for Vietnam Service.
Sure they supported the miltary operations. But even you can't put the
Gridley within range of any North Vietnamese gun.
Vietnamese gun?
The Gridley was never
fired on, never came close to anywhere it COULD have been fired on, and
spent most of its time in the South Pacific, in combat theaters like
French
Polynesia...Kerry hit the beach during that time, all right, but the only
damage he was in danger of was a severe sunburn.
The USS Gridley was in Vietnamese waters, including the Gulf of Tonkin and
this DOES count as doing duty in Vietnam.
If he thought that service
in Vietnam was going to be like that, he would have been nuts not to
volunteer for a second tour.
<snip >
My father, a WWII vet, has nothing but contempt for the man. HE refused
purple hearts for injuries that far exceeded anything that Kerry got.
My
father had broken ankles, shrapnel in his back (that still shows up
sixty
years later) broken back, ribs...he did things like pull dead gunners
away
from the gun and, while his back was in ribbons from shrapnel, shoot
kamikazi pilots from the sky as they were aiming at his fully loaded
ammunitions ship.
Will Bob Dole be giving back his first purple heart medal?
That's completely up to Bob Dole.
What? It's OK for Bob Dole to get a purple heart for a self-inflicted
scratch?
But...did Bob Dole use his purple hearts to get out of combat?
(hint....the answer is 'no')
So?
His SECOND one was for a wound for which even my father would have
accepted
a purple heart.
So?
But I'm not asking Kerry to give his purple hearts back. I don't have to.
He
threw them away, remember?
No, he did not throw them away.
(shrug) After all, he got what he wanted from
them....out.
And CLINTON promised to fulfill ROTC duties in one school in order to
get
a
deferment, and then ducked out of keeping it.
Clinton's not running!
Not at the moment, no.
Clinton is barred from running for President ever again.
But then neither is Bush. He DID run at the time,
however. His manipulation of the system in order to get out of any
service,
including the National Guard, was about as twisty a bit of manuevering as
I've seen.
And Bush served in the National Guard. Wow, how dishonorable of him.
Yes, his ANG service was dishonorable!
Actually, it wasn't.
Actually, It was. Bush didn't fulfill is commitment, pulled strings to get
into that cushy NG and likewise to pull off an honorable discharge.
He got an honorable discharge, he did what he was
supposed to do, and he has nothing to be ashamed of.
LOL. While Kerry was in combat in Vietnam here's Bush demonstrating his
leadership & fitness for command back in Texas!
From a U.S. News & World report article on Nov 1, 1999 titled:
"The Lost Years of Al and Dubya "
"One of Bush's favorite off-duty activities was pursuing the "aviation
groupies" hanging around the bars and clubs near the base. He'd cruise by in
his blue Triumph convertible, showing off a succession of impressive dates.
And he loved carousing with the guys. The ritual was simple, according to a
participant: Bellying up to the bar at a local tavern, someone in Bush's
crowd would yell, "Dead bug," whereupon everyone would drop to the floor,
flop onto his back, and twitch his arms and legs. The last one to hit the
ground would have to buy the next round. "You'd drink until you couldn't see
straight," and no one would care as long as you showed up for work the next
orning, says a Bush cohort from those days. "The culture was different
then.""
http://web.archive.org/web/19991128034804/http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/991101/lost.htm
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
19 Sep 2004 08:04:51 PM |
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"qwerty" <nospam@all.noway.com> wrote in message
news:I4n3d.17451$QJ3.4048@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
<snip to>
Sure they supported the miltary operations. But even you can't put the
Gridley within range of any North Vietnamese gun.
Vietnamese gun?
NO gun...that would have been aimed AT them.
The Gridley was never
fired on, never came close to anywhere it COULD have been fired on, and
spent most of its time in the South Pacific, in combat theaters like
French
Polynesia...Kerry hit the beach during that time, all right, but the only
damage he was in danger of was a severe sunburn.
The USS Gridley was in Vietnamese waters, including the Gulf of Tonkin and
this DOES count as doing duty in Vietnam.
Not really. No. I repeat; the Gridley was never in any danger of being fired
upon. That it qualified as 'doing duty in Vietnam' I have never argued with.
What I DID argue with was the idea that simply being qualified as 'doing
duty in Viet Nam" was actually the same as serving in combat situations or
actually being in any danger. Nobody on the Gridley was during Kerry's tour.
I mean, I'm not even arguing that his Purple Hearts were fraudulently
gotten. He filed the right paperwork and he bled for all three. True, I've
hurt myself worse shaving my legs, but (shrug) that's the way they handed
'em out at the time. However, the level of injury that got him a Purple
Heart does seem to diminish the glory of getting one, and the fact that he
deliberatly courted them and then used them to get OUT....only to throw them
away in a protest rally, that does bother me some.
If he thought that service
in Vietnam was going to be like that, he would have been nuts not to
volunteer for a second tour.
<snip >
My father, a WWII vet, has nothing but contempt for the man. HE
refused
purple hearts for injuries that far exceeded anything that Kerry got.
My
father had broken ankles, shrapnel in his back (that still shows up
sixty
years later) broken back, ribs...he did things like pull dead gunners
away
from the gun and, while his back was in ribbons from shrapnel, shoot
kamikazi pilots from the sky as they were aiming at his fully loaded
ammunitions ship.
Will Bob Dole be giving back his first purple heart medal?
That's completely up to Bob Dole.
What? It's OK for Bob Dole to get a purple heart for a self-inflicted
scratch?
Hey, it was 'OK' for Kerry to get one. I may not think they were worth much,
and I SURE don't like the way he used them.
But...did Bob Dole use his purple hearts to get out of combat?
(hint....the answer is 'no')
So?
That's a rather important point.
His SECOND one was for a wound for which even my father would have
accepted
a purple heart.
So?
That's a rather important point.
But I'm not asking Kerry to give his purple hearts back. I don't have to.
He
threw them away, remember?
No, he did not throw them away.
Oh, yeah. He did. He threw all his medals away. His Bronze Star, his Silver
Star, his service medals, his purple hearts, the whole batch, along with a
bunch of medals belonging to other soldiers that he passed off as belonging
to him for the purpose of the rally.
(shrug) After all, he got what he wanted from
them....out.
And CLINTON promised to fulfill ROTC duties in one school in order to
get
a
deferment, and then ducked out of keeping it.
Clinton's not running!
Not at the moment, no.
Clinton is barred from running for President ever again.
But he DID run, he WAS elected, and his little song and dance regarding
Vietnam was excused and waved aside as being something that happened too
long ago to matter. Seems the only people that you hold to the fire
historically are the Republicans.
But then neither is Bush. He DID run at the time,
however. His manipulation of the system in order to get out of any
service,
including the National Guard, was about as twisty a bit of manuevering as
I've seen.
And Bush served in the National Guard. Wow, how dishonorable of him.
Yes, his ANG service was dishonorable!
Actually, it wasn't.
Actually, It was. Bush didn't fulfill is commitment, pulled strings to
get
into that cushy NG and likewise to pull off an honorable discharge.
What, you mean you are ALSO buying into the CBS claim that the documents are
fake, but nevertheless 'true'?
He DID fulfill his commitment. He actually served more months than required.
He got an honorable discharge, he did what he was
supposed to do, and he has nothing to be ashamed of.
LOL. While Kerry was in combat in Vietnam here's Bush demonstrating his
leadership & fitness for command back in Texas!
I didn't notice that BUSH was shooting teenagers in the back and burning
villages belonging to non-combatants against orders.
.
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| User: "qwerty" |
|
| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
19 Sep 2004 10:42:40 PM |
|
|
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:T0q3d.2073$Co1.1940@trnddc02...
"qwerty" <nospam@all.noway.com> wrote in message
news:I4n3d.17451$QJ3.4048@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
<snip to>
Sure they supported the miltary operations. But even you can't put the
Gridley within range of any North Vietnamese gun.
Vietnamese gun?
NO gun...that would have been aimed AT them.
The Gridley was never
fired on, never came close to anywhere it COULD have been fired on, and
spent most of its time in the South Pacific, in combat theaters like
French
Polynesia...Kerry hit the beach during that time, all right, but the
only
damage he was in danger of was a severe sunburn.
The USS Gridley was in Vietnamese waters, including the Gulf of Tonkin
and
this DOES count as doing duty in Vietnam.
Not really.
Yes, really! The USS Gridley was in Vietnamese waters and awarded the
Vietnam Service Medal.
No. I repeat; the Gridley was never in any danger of being fired
upon.
Credible proof please....
That it qualified as 'doing duty in Vietnam' I have never argued with.
The Navy says otherwise.
What I DID argue with was the idea that simply being qualified as 'doing
duty in Viet Nam" was actually the same as serving in combat situations
or
actually being in any danger. Nobody on the Gridley was during Kerry's
tour.
Defined "Combat Situation" please....
I mean, I'm not even arguing that his Purple Hearts were fraudulently
gotten. He filed the right paperwork and he bled for all three. True, I've
hurt myself worse shaving my legs, but (shrug) that's the way they handed
'em out at the time. However, the level of injury that got him a Purple
Heart does seem to diminish the glory of getting one, and the fact that he
deliberatly courted them and then used them to get OUT....only to throw
them
away in a protest rally, that does bother me some.
Deliberately courted them? Credible proof please... Oh, and the same for
where he threw those purple heart medals away....
If he thought that service
in Vietnam was going to be like that, he would have been nuts not to
volunteer for a second tour.
<snip >
My father, a WWII vet, has nothing but contempt for the man. HE
refused
purple hearts for injuries that far exceeded anything that Kerry
got.
My
father had broken ankles, shrapnel in his back (that still shows up
sixty
years later) broken back, ribs...he did things like pull dead
gunners
away
from the gun and, while his back was in ribbons from shrapnel, shoot
kamikazi pilots from the sky as they were aiming at his fully loaded
ammunitions ship.
Will Bob Dole be giving back his first purple heart medal?
That's completely up to Bob Dole.
What? It's OK for Bob Dole to get a purple heart for a self-inflicted
scratch?
Hey, it was 'OK' for Kerry to get one. I may not think they were worth
much,
and I SURE don't like the way he used them.
But...did Bob Dole use his purple hearts to get out of combat?
(hint....the answer is 'no')
So?
That's a rather important point.
So?
His SECOND one was for a wound for which even my father would have
accepted
a purple heart.
So?
That's a rather important point.
So?
But I'm not asking Kerry to give his purple hearts back. I don't have
to.
He
threw them away, remember?
No, he did not throw them away.
Oh, yeah. He did. He threw all his medals away.
He did NOT!
His Bronze Star, his Silver
Star, his service medals, his purple hearts, the whole batch, along with a
bunch of medals belonging to other soldiers that he passed off as
belonging
to him for the purpose of the rally.
Credible proof please.....
(shrug) After all, he got what he wanted from
them....out.
And CLINTON promised to fulfill ROTC duties in one school in order
to
get
a
deferment, and then ducked out of keeping it.
Clinton's not running!
Not at the moment, no.
Clinton is barred from running for President ever again.
But he DID run, he WAS elected, and his little song and dance regarding
Vietnam was excused and waved aside as being something that happened too
long ago to matter. Seems the only people that you hold to the fire
historically are the Republicans.
Clinton's not running. You're free to vote for him if you please....
But then neither is Bush. He DID run at the time,
however. His manipulation of the system in order to get out of any
service,
including the National Guard, was about as twisty a bit of manuevering
as
I've seen.
And Bush served in the National Guard. Wow, how dishonorable of him.
Yes, his ANG service was dishonorable!
Actually, it wasn't.
Actually, It was. Bush didn't fulfill is commitment, pulled strings to
get
into that cushy NG and likewise to pull off an honorable discharge.
What, you mean you are ALSO buying into the CBS claim that the documents
are
fake, but nevertheless 'true'?
LOL, the content is absolutely true! Bush failed to take a required
medical. Bush failed to show up for required duty.
He DID fulfill his commitment. He actually served more months than
required.
He got an honorable discharge, he did what he was
supposed to do, and he has nothing to be ashamed of.
LOL. While Kerry was in combat in Vietnam here's Bush demonstrating his
leadership & fitness for command back in Texas!
I didn't notice that BUSH was shooting teenagers in the back and burning
villages belonging to non-combatants against orders.
How do you know what Bush was doing back in Texas? Isn't life cheap in
Texas?
While Kerry was in combat in Vietnam here's Bush demonstrating his
leadership & fitness for command back in Texas!
From a U.S. News & World report article on Nov 1, 1999 titled:
"The Lost Years of Al and Dubya "
"One of Bush's favorite off-duty activities was pursuing the "aviation
groupies" hanging around the bars and clubs near the base. He'd cruise by in
his blue Triumph convertible, showing off a succession of impressive dates.
And he loved carousing with the guys. The ritual was simple, according to a
participant: Bellying up to the bar at a local tavern, someone in Bush's
crowd would yell, "Dead bug," whereupon everyone would drop to the floor,
flop onto his back, and twitch his arms and legs. The last one to hit the
ground would have to buy the next round. "You'd drink until you couldn't see
straight," and no one would care as long as you showed up for work the next
orning, says a Bush cohort from those days. "The culture was different
then.""
http://web.archive.org/web/19991128034804/http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/991101/lost.htm
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
20 Sep 2004 12:13:36 AM |
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"qwerty" <nospam@all.noway.com> wrote in message
news:Qks3d.23194$wo1.16614@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:T0q3d.2073$Co1.1940@trnddc02...
"qwerty" <nospam@all.noway.com> wrote in message
news:I4n3d.17451$QJ3.4048@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
<snip to>
Sure they supported the miltary operations. But even you can't put the
Gridley within range of any North Vietnamese gun.
Vietnamese gun?
NO gun...that would have been aimed AT them.
The Gridley was never
fired on, never came close to anywhere it COULD have been fired on,
and
spent most of its time in the South Pacific, in combat theaters like
French
Polynesia...Kerry hit the beach during that time, all right, but the
only
damage he was in danger of was a severe sunburn.
The USS Gridley was in Vietnamese waters, including the Gulf of Tonkin
and
this DOES count as doing duty in Vietnam.
Not really.
Yes, really! The USS Gridley was in Vietnamese waters and awarded the
Vietnam Service Medal.
No. I repeat; the Gridley was never in any danger of being fired
upon.
Credible proof please....
That it qualified as 'doing duty in Vietnam' I have never argued with.
The Navy says otherwise.
The Navy says that I have argued that the first cruise didn't qualify as
'doing duty in Vietnam'?
What I DID argue with was the idea that simply being qualified as 'doing
duty in Viet Nam" was actually the same as serving in combat situations
or
actually being in any danger. Nobody on the Gridley was during Kerry's
tour.
Defined "Combat Situation" please....
Any position where one is in danger of getting shot at by a member of an
opposing military force?
Which is...sorry about that...not a position that the Gridley was ever in
during Kerry's tour on board. He was considirably safer where HE was at the
time than I was, AMOF. ;-)
I mean, I'm not even arguing that his Purple Hearts were fraudulently
gotten. He filed the right paperwork and he bled for all three. True,
I've
hurt myself worse shaving my legs, but (shrug) that's the way they handed
'em out at the time. However, the level of injury that got him a Purple
Heart does seem to diminish the glory of getting one, and the fact that
he
deliberatly courted them and then used them to get OUT....only to throw
them
away in a protest rally, that does bother me some.
Deliberately courted them? Credible proof please... Oh, and the same
for
where he threw those purple heart medals away....
Oh, come on, we have videotape of THAT incident! Who are you trying to kid
here? Kerry himself doesn't deny doing that! In fact, he was rather proud
of that; made a point of it, actually. In 1971 he stated...and I quote:"I
gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals,"
Actually, he threw 'em, but why be picky?
Of course, NOW he's claiming that he didn't actually throw HIS medals,
he was only pretending they were his....and later lied about that and said
they were his.
However, since it would be rather crass of me to accuse the man of
lying, I'll choose to believe him when he first stated that they were all
his and assume that they were, indeed, his.
Er, was he lying THEN, or is he lying NOW?
If he thought that service
in Vietnam was going to be like that, he would have been nuts not to
volunteer for a second tour.
<snip >
My father, a WWII vet, has nothing but contempt for the man. HE
refused
purple hearts for injuries that far exceeded anything that Kerry
got.
My
father had broken ankles, shrapnel in his back (that still shows up
sixty
years later) broken back, ribs...he did things like pull dead
gunners
away
from the gun and, while his back was in ribbons from shrapnel,
shoot
kamikazi pilots from the sky as they were aiming at his fully
loaded
ammunitions ship.
Will Bob Dole be giving back his first purple heart medal?
That's completely up to Bob Dole.
What? It's OK for Bob Dole to get a purple heart for a self-inflicted
scratch?
Hey, it was 'OK' for Kerry to get one. I may not think they were worth
much,
and I SURE don't like the way he used them.
But...did Bob Dole use his purple hearts to get out of combat?
(hint....the answer is 'no')
So?
That's a rather important point.
So?
So it's OK for you to bring up Republican personal history and use it to
make a point, but it's not OK for me to do the same? (snort)
So John Kerry is personally courageous when he doesn't have to think, he'll
resusitate a hamster and grab a SEAL that he knocked off his boat in his
rush to leave an area, but he's a liar and completely incapable of knowing
his own mind, never mind leading a nation.
His SECOND one was for a wound for which even my father would have
accepted
a purple heart.
So?
That's a rather important point.
So?
Need a needle threaded, do you?
But I'm not asking Kerry to give his purple hearts back. I don't have
to.
He
threw them away, remember?
No, he did not throw them away.
Oh, yeah. He did. He threw all his medals away.
He did NOT!
Actually, he did. At least, he says he did.
His Bronze Star, his Silver
Star, his service medals, his purple hearts, the whole batch, along with
a
bunch of medals belonging to other soldiers that he passed off as
belonging
to him for the purpose of the rally.
Credible proof please.....
His own interview, the videotapes, his own admission that he did it? That
credible enough for you?
(shrug) After all, he got what he wanted from
them....out.
And CLINTON promised to fulfill ROTC duties in one school in order
to
get
a
deferment, and then ducked out of keeping it.
Clinton's not running!
Not at the moment, no.
Clinton is barred from running for President ever again.
But he DID run, he WAS elected, and his little song and dance regarding
Vietnam was excused and waved aside as being something that happened too
long ago to matter. Seems the only people that you hold to the fire
historically are the Republicans.
Clinton's not running. You're free to vote for him if you please....
But then neither is Bush. He DID run at the time,
however. His manipulation of the system in order to get out of any
service,
including the National Guard, was about as twisty a bit of manuevering
as
I've seen.
And Bush served in the National Guard. Wow, how dishonorable of
him.
Yes, his ANG service was dishonorable!
Actually, it wasn't.
Actually, It was. Bush didn't fulfill is commitment, pulled strings to
get
into that cushy NG and likewise to pull off an honorable discharge.
What, you mean you are ALSO buying into the CBS claim that the documents
are
fake, but nevertheless 'true'?
LOL, the content is absolutely true! Bush failed to take a required
medical. Bush failed to show up for required duty.
You are insane.
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
20 Sep 2004 02:18:30 AM |
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qwerty wrote:
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:T0q3d.2073$Co1.1940@trnddc02...
"qwerty" <nospam@all.noway.com> wrote in message
news:I4n3d.17451$QJ3.4048@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
<snip to>
Sure they supported the miltary operations. But even you can't put the
Gridley within range of any North Vietnamese gun.
Vietnamese gun?
NO gun...that would have been aimed AT them.
The Gridley was never
fired on, never came close to anywhere it COULD have been fired on,
and spent most of its time in the South Pacific, in combat theaters
like
French
Polynesia...Kerry hit the beach during that time, all right, but the
only
damage he was in danger of was a severe sunburn.
The USS Gridley was in Vietnamese waters, including the Gulf of Tonkin
and
this DOES count as doing duty in Vietnam.
Not really.
Yes, really! The USS Gridley was in Vietnamese waters and awarded the
Vietnam Service Medal.
No. I repeat; the Gridley was never in any danger of being fired
upon.
Credible proof please....
And being AWOL in Alabama is most certainly in
no danger of being shot at unless Bush went to a bad bar.
Bush got himself gounded, Kerry signed up
for two tours of duty.
Bush lied us into a war.
Why you bastards attack Kerry this way and let AWOL
of the hook for far worse I just don't understand.
Some people are just stupid.
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
20 Sep 2004 09:14:43 AM |
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"wbarwell" <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:414e90f4$0$172$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com...
<snip to>
And being AWOL in Alabama is most certainly in
no danger of being shot at unless Bush went to a bad bar.
Bush got himself gounded, Kerry signed up
for two tours of duty.
Bush lied us into a war.
Why you bastards attack Kerry this way and let AWOL
of the hook for far worse I just don't understand.
Some people are just stupid
I attack Kerry because I don't like him.
Because he's a vacilating idiot who doesn't know which color socks to put on
in the morning.
Because he has three sides to every issue. Shoot, he's on his third campaign
staff.
Because he threw away his medals. Or worse, he threw away someone else's
medals and claimed they were his. (there is something very telling about
that, y'know?)
Because he accused others of war crimes and lied about those.
Because in the same speach he admitted to commiting war crimes and thinks
that National Guard service is worse than lying to congress (or worse, NOT
lying and actually having done those things)
Because he lied about what he did and where he was in Vietnam...Cambodia on
Christmas Eve?
Because he's spent the last thirty five years telling us how much he hates
the military.
Because he is quite possibly THE most left wing Senator we've ever had,
barring maybe Ed Kennedy.
Because he saw exactly the same intelligence that Bush did regarding
Iraq...and voted to give Bush permission to GO to war, but is now whining
that he didn't think that meant that Bush would actually DO it.
Because he tells us that he's going to get France and Germany to help out in
Iraq, when there is no way in hell that France and Germany are going to help
us out in Iraq.
Because he has NO strategy for Iraq, exit or winning.
Because his economic proposals make no sense and would derail the economy,
which is doing just fine at the moment, thank you.
Because he's an elitist snob who is pretending to be one of the 'little
people', and he can't even treat the men who would die for him with
courtesy.
Because his nose is too long; probably from all the practice looking down
it.
'K?
.
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| User: "Tammy" |
|
| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
20 Sep 2004 03:08:58 PM |
|
|
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<nBB3d.8348$464.4237@trnddc01>...
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:414e90f4$0$172$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com...
<snip to>
And being AWOL in Alabama is most certainly in
no danger of being shot at unless Bush went to a bad bar.
Bush got himself gounded, Kerry signed up
for two tours of duty.
Bush lied us into a war.
Why you bastards attack Kerry this way and let AWOL
of the hook for far worse I just don't understand.
Some people are just stupid
I attack Kerry because I don't like him.
Because he's a vacilating idiot who doesn't know which color socks to put on
in the morning.
Because he has three sides to every issue. Shoot, he's on his third campaign
staff.
Because he threw away his medals. Or worse, he threw away someone else's
medals and claimed they were his. (there is something very telling about
that, y'know?)
Because he accused others of war crimes and lied about those.
Because in the same speach he admitted to commiting war crimes and thinks
that National Guard service is worse than lying to congress (or worse, NOT
lying and actually having done those things)
Because he lied about what he did and where he was in Vietnam...Cambodia on
Christmas Eve?
Because he's spent the last thirty five years telling us how much he hates
the military.
Because he is quite possibly THE most left wing Senator we've ever had,
barring maybe Ed Kennedy.
Because he saw exactly the same intelligence that Bush did regarding
Iraq...and voted to give Bush permission to GO to war, but is now whining
that he didn't think that meant that Bush would actually DO it.
Because he tells us that he's going to get France and Germany to help out in
Iraq, when there is no way in hell that France and Germany are going to help
us out in Iraq.
Because he has NO strategy for Iraq, exit or winning.
Because his economic proposals make no sense and would derail the economy,
which is doing just fine at the moment, thank you.
Because he's an elitist snob who is pretending to be one of the 'little
people', and he can't even treat the men who would die for him with
courtesy.
Because his nose is too long; probably from all the practice looking down
it.
'K?
Actually, based upon the misinformation that you cite, it appears that
you attack Kerry because you watch too much FOx News. Get the facts
and be more informed.
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
20 Sep 2004 06:39:14 PM |
|
|
"Tammy" <BuffyToU@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c7bd5687.0409201208.4e0ff3c7@posting.google.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<nBB3d.8348$464.4237@trnddc01>...
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:414e90f4$0$172$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com...
<snip to>
And being AWOL in Alabama is most certainly in
no danger of being shot at unless Bush went to a bad bar.
Bush got himself gounded, Kerry signed up
for two tours of duty.
Bush lied us into a war.
Why you bastards attack Kerry this way and let AWOL
of the hook for far worse I just don't understand.
Some people are just stupid
I attack Kerry because I don't like him.
Because he's a vacilating idiot who doesn't know which color socks to put
on
in the morning.
Because he has three sides to every issue. Shoot, he's on his third
campaign
staff.
Because he threw away his medals. Or worse, he threw away someone else's
medals and claimed they were his. (there is something very telling about
that, y'know?)
Because he accused others of war crimes and lied about those.
Because in the same speach he admitted to commiting war crimes and thinks
that National Guard service is worse than lying to congress (or worse,
NOT
lying and actually having done those things)
Because he lied about what he did and where he was in Vietnam...Cambodia
on
Christmas Eve?
Because he's spent the last thirty five years telling us how much he
hates
the military.
Because he is quite possibly THE most left wing Senator we've ever had,
barring maybe Ed Kennedy.
Because he saw exactly the same intelligence that Bush did regarding
Iraq...and voted to give Bush permission to GO to war, but is now whining
that he didn't think that meant that Bush would actually DO it.
Because he tells us that he's going to get France and Germany to help out
in
Iraq, when there is no way in hell that France and Germany are going to
help
us out in Iraq.
Because he has NO strategy for Iraq, exit or winning.
Because his economic proposals make no sense and would derail the
economy,
which is doing just fine at the moment, thank you.
Because he's an elitist snob who is pretending to be one of the 'little
people', and he can't even treat the men who would die for him with
courtesy.
Because his nose is too long; probably from all the practice looking down
it.
'K?
Actually, based upon the misinformation that you cite, it appears that
you attack Kerry because you watch too much FOx News. Get the facts
and be more informed.
he..and exactly what facts have I misrepresented here?
.....not my opinions, the FACTS?
Did he throw his medals away or not?
If not his, why did he claim they were his?
Was he in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, or not? If he wasn't, why did he lie
about it? If he was, why is he lying about it NOW?
Did he admit to comitting war crimes or not?
If he did, why didn't they jail him? If he didn't, why isn't anybody upset
at the perjury?
Is is record over twenty years of being in the Senate very left wing or not?
Has he claimed for two years that he would go into Iraq even knowing what we
know now or not?
....and did he not, today, claim that he would not have gone into Iraq,
because we would be safer, as the world would be, if we hadn't? (Safer WITH
Saddam in power, in other words)
Is he from a very priviledged background who married into an even more
priviledged background or not?
Did he, or did he not, call one of the Secret Service men protecting him a
'*****'?
Has he made significant and sweeping changes in his campaign staff twice
now, resulting in three different teams, or not?
These are not right wing biased allegations.
And you think maybe I should have got all my news from CBS?
.
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| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
21 Sep 2004 05:41:23 AM |
|
|
On 20 Sep 2004 13:08:58 -0700, (Tammy) wrote:
Actually, based upon the misinformation that you cite, it appears that
you attack Kerry because you watch too much FOx News. Get the facts
and be more informed.
Those are the facts. They all use the same wire services.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "Tammy" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
21 Sep 2004 10:15:33 AM |
|
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message news:<7810l0lj9hh7lknibnn9jjfqtiutf8f384@4ax.com>...
On 20 Sep 2004 13:08:58 -0700, (Tammy) wrote:
Actually, based upon the misinformation that you cite, it appears that
you attack Kerry because you watch too much FOx News. Get the facts
and be more informed.
Those are the facts. They all use the same wire services.
duke
*****
No, they are actually not.
Anyone who thinks that Kerry is either "vacilating" or an "idiot", has
had his mind rotted by Fox News. It is only the GOP propaganda
organization and those mindless enough to listen to them believe that
Kerry vacilates or is an idiot. Kerry's policies didn't cause 9/11.
Kerry's policies didn't cause the Bush recession. Kerry's policies
didn't alienate all of our allies.
Only mindless GOPs believe that Kerry lied about what he did in
Vietnam or that he accused others of war crimes. He did testify about
what others had told him that they did. Only a GOP like you would
think that there is something wrong with not lying under oath. When
the the GOP become the party of liars and traitors?
He did not see the intelligence that Bush had proving that Bush's
claims were lies. Maybe he should have seen through Bush's lies more
than most of America. Many people believed those lies then. Some
idiots still believe Bush's lies. Do you still believe Bush's lies?
France and Germany are going to help us out in Iraq.
You are probably right. It will be difficult to undo all of the damage
that Bush has done to this country. Of course, the person who created
the problem and who doesn't think that it was a mistake to create the
problem, is probably not the person to hire to solve the problem.
I don't believe that Kerry mentioned France and Germany by name. He
said "the international community".
If you screwed up as much has Bush has, would you still have your job?
Because he's an elitist snob who is pretending to be one of the
'little people
Wait, are we talking about Bush? I thought we were talking about
Kerry.
Because his nose is too long
And what would be a GOP political argument with the ethnic/physical
attribute attack? GOP to the extreme.
If you thought that Bush could stand on his own two feet, you wouldn't
have to lie and resort to the ethnic attacks.
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
21 Sep 2004 10:56:30 AM |
|
|
"Tammy" <> wrote in message
news:c7bd5687.0409210715.61a1fdc6@posting.google.com...
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:<7810l0lj9hh7lknibnn9jjfqtiutf8f384@4ax.com>...
On 20 Sep 2004 13:08:58 -0700, (Tammy) wrote:
Actually, based upon the misinformation that you cite, it appears that
you attack Kerry because you watch too much FOx News. Get the facts
and be more informed.
Those are the facts. They all use the same wire services.
duke
*****
No, they are actually not.
Anyone who thinks that Kerry is either "vacilating" or an "idiot", has
had his mind rotted by Fox News. It is only the GOP propaganda
organization and those mindless enough to listen to them believe that
Kerry vacilates or is an idiot. Kerry's policies didn't cause 9/11.
Kerry's policies didn't cause the Bush recession. Kerry's policies
didn't alienate all of our allies.
Actually, I get my opinion about Kerry's changes of mind from his own
speeches....and you will notice that I didn't claim that Kerry's policies
caused 9/11, the recession nor did they alienate our allies.
The recession started in CLINTON'S term, (yes, I'm sorry, really, but it
did..since the recession began less than a month and a half after Bush's
inauguration after a very long upturn and was then a natural result of the
classic business cycle) and there is no way you can blame 'Bush policies'
for it. Terrorist policies caused 9/11 and our allies are not alienated, by
definition. ;-)
Only mindless GOPs believe that Kerry lied about what he did in
Vietnam or that he accused others of war crimes.
Er, KERRY admitted that he lied. HE'S the one who claimed he was in Cambodia
on Christmas eve, and HE is the one who gave us a statement admitting that,
guess what, he wasn't...
He did testify about
what others had told him that they did. Only a GOP like you would
think that there is something wrong with not lying under oath. When
the the GOP become the party of liars and traitors?
Sorry, that's inaccurate. He has several times in the last thirty years
claimed that he was involved in these things. His 'mea culpa' act was an
integral part of his protests.
He did not see the intelligence that Bush had proving that Bush's
claims were lies. Maybe he should have seen through Bush's lies more
than most of America. Many people believed those lies then. Some
idiots still believe Bush's lies. Do you still believe Bush's lies?
I believe that Bush acted on the intelligence he was given. ALL of it. I
beleive that Kerry saw the same intelligence reports and acted on them as
well. That he is back peddling on that now is also fact.
France and Germany are going to help us out in Iraq.
You are probably right. It will be difficult to undo all of the damage
that Bush has done to this country. Of course, the person who created
the problem and who doesn't think that it was a mistake to create the
problem, is probably not the person to hire to solve the problem.
I am right. France and Germany have no intention of helping. We caught them
with their economic pants down. Yet Kerry insists that he will get them to
do so. Last I heard, he's thinking about doing that by carving Iraq up and
giving parts of it (and it's oil reserves) to them so that they can have the
oil anyway. In other words, he's going to bribe them by doing precisely what
he (and France, Germany and Russia) are accusing Bush of doing; victimizing
Iraqis in order to take their oil away from them.
And you want to vote for this person?
And yes, I got THIS from one of Kerry's speeches, too.
I don't believe that Kerry mentioned France and Germany by name. He
said "the international community".
We HAVE an 'international community' on our side now. Don't be disengenuous
here; you know very well that Kerry's use of 'international community' is a
euphamism for France, Germany and Russia.
If you screwed up as much has Bush has, would you still have your job?
If you do your job with the clarity of thought you are showing here, how
come you still have yours?
Because he's an elitist snob who is pretending to be one of the
'little people
Wait, are we talking about Bush? I thought we were talking about
Kerry.
(snort)
Guess which one of the candidates has the most money? (hint; it ain't Bush)
Because his nose is too long
And what would be a GOP political argument with the ethnic/physical
attribute attack? GOP to the extreme.
If you thought that Bush could stand on his own two feet, you wouldn't
have to lie and resort to the ethnic attacks.
Idiot.
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| User: "Tammy" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
22 Sep 2004 11:07:39 AM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<OaY3d.7233$vd1.4641@trnddc03>...
The recession started in CLINTON'S term, (yes, I'm sorry, really, but it
did..since the recession began less than a month and a half after Bush's
inauguration after a very long upturn and was then a natural result of the
classic business cycle) and there is no way you can blame 'Bush policies'
for it. Terrorist policies caused 9/11 and our allies are not alienated, by
definition. ;-)
You would think that if someone told you that you are wrong on the
facts, you might actually check your facts before restating them.
The official determination of a recession is made by the National
Bureau of Economic Research. Their determination was (and is) that the
recession started in March of 2001.
See http://www.nber.org/cycles/november2001/
I would also like to point out that your false claim of "The recession
started in CLINTON'S term" is contradicted by your also false claim of
"since the recession began less than a month and a half after Bush's
inauguration".
So as I said, wrong on the facts.
As has been endlessly pointed out, the recession starting in March of
2001 was caused by a drop in consumer confidence which started around
the November election. The drop in confidence was caused by the
president elect telling everyone that the economy was already in a
recession. Yes, I know he was lying, but some people believed him.
Even if they didn't believe him, people would worry that other people
might believe him. It seems silly, but there are still people out
there who believe George Bush's lies. What is it, 37% of the country
believes that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and that WMDs have
been found.
As has also been pointed out. The White House knew that 9/11 was
coming. Yes, as Rice has pointed out, they didn't know the exact date.
They didn't know the exact target. They had enough information to know
that something big was going to happen, in a matter of days or weeks.
They believed that it would have something to do with hijackings. Here
is a list of actions taken by the White House in the months leading up
to 9/11.
1. Ordered security lowered at airports as a unwarrented governmental
intrusion upon business.
2. Ordered the FBI to focus on normal crime rather than anti-terrorism
efforts.
3. Lowered the position of anti-terrorism czar from a principal to
deputy position.
4. Stopped the Clinton practice of having twice weekly FBI - CIA
anti-terrorism coordinating meetings.
5. Blocked implementation of the bipartisan anti-terrorism bill.
6. Went on vacation.
Each of these policies contributed to 9/11 occuring. If these policies
were not implemented, 9/11 might have been stopped or at least been
less severe.
Other, fairly obvious, steps might have been things like.
1. Raise security in the airports. Was a regular occurance during the
Clinton administration when faced with terrorism threats. Might not
have stopped 9/11, but catching two or three of the terrorists would
have saved thousands.
2. Put air marshalls on some or all of the flights. Probably not
enough marshalls to put on all flights, but 1 marshall on 1 of the
flights would have saved thousands.
Only mindless GOPs believe that Kerry lied about what he did in
Vietnam or that he accused others of war crimes.
Er, KERRY admitted that he lied.
See. This is what I mean about a mindless GOP. Please provide proof.
HE'S the one who claimed he was in Cambodia
on Christmas eve, and HE is the one who gave us a statement admitting that,
guess what, he wasn't...
He said that he was in Cambodia. There is proof that he was two miles
south of the border and headed north. No one knows how far north he
went. What he said was that he believed at the time that he was in
Cambodia. That he believes now that he was in Cambodia, but there is
no way of proving that and that he may be mistaken. A far shot short
of being caught in or admitting a lie. Unless Bush who has been caught
in hundreds of lies.
Found any WMDS lately? Found any proof that Bush served in Alabama?
Found any proof that Bush served in Massachusetts. Bush supposedly
served with 600 guardsman in Alabama, yet not one remembers him
actually showing up. Despite a reward offer of $50,000. And Bush
doesn't even claim to have ever served in Massachusetts.
He did testify about
what others had told him that they did. Only a GOP like you would
think that there is something wrong with not lying under oath. When
the the GOP become the party of liars and traitors?
Sorry, that's inaccurate. He has several times in the last thirty years
claimed that he was involved in these things. His 'mea culpa' act was an
integral part of his protests.
Are you claiming that no war crimes were committed in Vietnam by US
troops? If you are then you are ignorant and stupid, maybe both. If
not, then Kerry was telling the truth. Why do Republicans always hate
people who tell the truth? McCain says that War Crimes occurred. Colen
Powell says that War Crimes occurred. Why don't you accuse them of
lying?
He did not see the intelligence that Bush had proving that Bush's
claims were lies. Maybe he should have seen through Bush's lies more
than most of America. Many people believed those lies then. Some
idiots still believe Bush's lies. Do you still believe Bush's lies?
I believe that Bush acted on the intelligence he was given. ALL of it.
So you believe that the 9/11 commission lied. Even the Republicans.
I
beleive that Kerry saw the same intelligence reports and acted on them as
well. That he is back peddling on that now is also fact.
Look at what Congress (and Kerry) voted for. It authorizes the
president to use military action once all diplomatic and economic
methods fail. The diplomatic efforts were a success. The economic
methods were a success. George Bush attacked Iraq anyways. Congress
did not authorized an unprovocked attack. Suddam is (and was) an evil
person, but that is no excuse for an unauthorized invasion. Saddam
paid for terrorism in Israel. But then so does Saudi Arabia and Syria.
There is not a single Arab or Moslem country that does not support or
aid terrorism in some way. Why not pick on one where we might make a
difference? Why abandon the war on the 9/11 terrorists to overextend
ourselves in Iraq?
France and Germany are going to help us out in Iraq.
You are probably right. It will be difficult to undo all of the damage
that Bush has done to this country. Of course, the person who created
the problem and who doesn't think that it was a mistake to create the
problem, is probably not the person to hire to solve the problem.
I am right. France and Germany have no intention of helping. We caught them
with their economic pants down.
I believe you mean that they caught Bush lying about WMDs and Iraq's
connection with 9/11. That is why France and Germany (and most of the
world) didn't support our invasion of Iraq. Hell, the only country
that would help without us paying them was Great Britain. How many
billions did we give Turkey just to let us use their airbases?
Yet Kerry insists that he will get them to
do so. Last I heard, he's thinking about doing that by carving Iraq up and
giving parts of it (and it's oil reserves) to them so that they can have the
oil anyway.
Do you mean that Kerry proposed that, or do you have a hot line into
his brain? I've been trying to read my husband's thoughts for a couple
of years. Please tell me how you do it.
In other words, he's going to bribe them by doing precisely what
he (and France, Germany and Russia) are accusing Bush of doing; victimizing
Iraqis in order to take their oil away from them.
I'm not sure that dividing Iraq up would be "victimizing" them. It is
what many Iraqis want. I think that invading their country and bombing
them back to the stone age would be victimization enough.
And you want to vote for this person?
And yes, I got THIS from one of Kerry's speeches, too.
Kerry said that you were going to vote for Bush? Please provide proof.
I don't believe that Kerry mentioned France and Germany by name. He
said "the international community".
We HAVE an 'international community' on our side now. Don't be disengenuous
here; you know very well that Kerry's use of 'international community' is a
euphamism for France, Germany and Russia.
Once again, there is that hotline into his brain. You have to tell me
how to do it.
99% of the troups are US. 99% of the support staff are US. 99% of the
money paid is from the US. There is no one there that has sent more
than a token force to help. There is no one there, other than Great
Britain, that we haven't paid to be there. The UN refused to endorse
or support the invasion. Nato refused to endorse or support the
invasion. So much for international community. If there was an
"international community" helping us, Bush would have had to go to the
UN yesterday to beg for some help.
If you screwed up as much has Bush has, would you still have your job?
If you do your job with the clarity of thought you are showing here, how
come you still have yours?
I'll take that as an admission that you wouldn't have your job.
Doing a good job, in my case, involves tackling a problem, applying
logic and deductive reasoning and coming up with (hopefully) the best
solution and implementing it, being prepared to change course should
the solution be incorrect.
It does not involve lying and covering up to justify a faulty solution
after the fact. It does not involve claiming that a course of action
is a solution to a problem, when, in reality, the motivations for the
course of action had nothing to do with the problem at hand.
Bush lied to get us into Iraq. He is still lying.
Bush may measure his success by the number of US troops killed, and so
do I. But in my case, the more US troops killed, the more the policy
is a failure.
You may not believe that Bush lied when he knowingly misrepresented
the facts about Iraq.
Do you agree with Bush that the invasion of Iraq and 1000 US troops
dead represents a successfull policy?
Because he's an elitist snob who is pretending to be one of the
'little people
Wait, are we talking about Bush? I thought we were talking about
Kerry.
(snort)
Guess which one of the candidates has the most money? (hint; it ain't Bush)
You weren't talking about the amount of money. You said "elitist snob"
and you said "to be one of the 'little people". That would be Bush.
The man who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and thinks he
earned it.
Because his nose is too long
And what would be a GOP political argument with the ethnic/physical
attribute attack? GOP to the extreme.
If you thought that Bush could stand on his own two feet, you wouldn't
have to lie and resort to the ethnic attacks.
Idiot.
There you go again. If you can't win on the facts, lie, distort, and
smear.
If you didn't resort to personal attacks against someone, just because
she is honest and patriotic, you wouldn't be a GOP.
Why do you hate Democracy and a free exchange of ideas so much? What
has America ever done to you that you should hate her so much?
What was your boss doing while John Kerry was putting his life on the
line to defend America.
You can attack veterans, patriots, people who believe in democracy and
love America as much as you want. Regardless of all the smears, you
cannot hide from one fact that is obvious even to a ditto brain like
you.
JOHN KERRY VOLUNTEERED AND PUT HIS LIFE ON THE LINE TO DEFEND AMERICA.
GEORGE BUSH DIDN'T EVEN FULFILL THE TOKEN SERVICE THAT HIS FAMILY
CONNECTIONS GOT HIM.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
22 Sep 2004 07:38:56 PM |
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"Tammy" <BuffyToU@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c7bd5687.0409220807.531b6d28@posting.google.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<OaY3d.7233$vd1.4641@trnddc03>...
The recession started in CLINTON'S term, (yes, I'm sorry, really, but it
did..since the recession began less than a month and a half after Bush's
inauguration after a very long upturn and was then a natural result of
the
classic business cycle) and there is no way you can blame 'Bush policies'
for it. Terrorist policies caused 9/11 and our allies are not alienated,
by
definition. ;-)
You would think that if someone told you that you are wrong on the
facts, you might actually check your facts before restating them.
The official determination of a recession is made by the National
Bureau of Economic Research. Their determination was (and is) that the
recession started in March of 2001.
See http://www.nber.org/cycles/november2001/
Yes. I know. Now, would you care to look at when Bush was INAUGURATED? You
are telling me, honestly telling me, that Bush managed to push the nation
into a recession less than six weeks after he became the president,
especially since until that point, he hadn't had time to get even ONE
economic measure through congress, never mind enacted?
What, you think he maybe used his incredible psi powers on everything?
I would also like to point out that your false claim of "The recession
started in CLINTON'S term" is contradicted by your also false claim of
"since the recession began less than a month and a half after Bush's
inauguration".
So as I said, wrong on the facts.
Look...I really hate to point this out, but 'March 2001" WAS only a month
and a half after his inauguration.
As has been endlessly pointed out, the recession starting in March of
2001 was caused by a drop in consumer confidence which started around
the November election. The drop in confidence was caused by the
president elect telling everyone that the economy was already in a
recession. Yes, I know he was lying, but some people believed him.
Even if they didn't believe him, people would worry that other people
might believe him. It seems silly, but there are still people out
there who believe George Bush's lies. What is it, 37% of the country
believes that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and that WMDs have
been found.
Bull *****.
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| User: "Tammy" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
23 Sep 2004 12:18:05 PM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<AWo4d.5570$Co1.5422@trnddc02>...
"Tammy" <BuffyToU@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c7bd5687.0409220807.531b6d28@posting.google.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<OaY3d.7233$vd1.4641@trnddc03>...
The recession started in CLINTON'S term, (yes, I'm sorry, really, but it
did..since the recession began less than a month and a half after Bush's
inauguration after a very long upturn and was then a natural result of
the
classic business cycle) and there is no way you can blame 'Bush policies'
for it. Terrorist policies caused 9/11 and our allies are not alienated,
by
definition. ;-)
You would think that if someone told you that you are wrong on the
facts, you might actually check your facts before restating them.
The official determination of a recession is made by the National
Bureau of Economic Research. Their determination was (and is) that the
recession started in March of 2001.
See http://www.nber.org/cycles/november2001/
Yes. I know. Now, would you care to look at when Bush was INAUGURATED? You
are telling me, honestly telling me, that Bush managed to push the nation
into a recession less than six weeks after he became the president,
especially since until that point, he hadn't had time to get even ONE
economic measure through congress, never mind enacted?
What, you think he maybe used his incredible psi powers on everything?
First of all, I've already disproven your initial claim that the
recession started during Clinton's term, so admitting that you were
wrong, yet claiming that you are right by changing the subject is kind
of underhanded. In addition, I believe that I've already explained why
the recession started, your inane comment about "incredible psi
powers" not withstanding.
Starting prior to November of 2000, Bush continually talked about how
the economy was in a recession. He, and his staff, panicked the
nation, so what we had was five plus months of him shaking consumer
confidence. Whether he deliberately caused the recession, or was just
plain incompetent, I'll leave up to you. I personally believe that it
was plain incompetence, but friends of mine point out that Republicans
always favor high unemployment as it keeps the cost of wages lower,
and look at that, Bush's incompetence just happens to caused the kind
of economy that the Republicans always want. No wonder Bush jokes
about it.
I would also like to point out that your false claim of "The recession
started in CLINTON'S term" is contradicted by your also false claim of
"since the recession began less than a month and a half after Bush's
inauguration".
So as I said, wrong on the facts.
Look...I really hate to point this out, but 'March 2001" WAS only a month
and a half after his inauguration.
Look, the fact is that Clinton's term ended with Bush's inauguration.
Regardless of whose fault the recession was, Clinton, Bush, or little
green aliens, a month and a half into Bush's term is just that, a
month and a half into Bush's term, not in Clinton's term.
How can you admit that the recession started in March 2001, admit that
March 2001 was a month and a half into Bush's term, yet insist that
the recession started in Clinton's term?
As has been endlessly pointed out, the recession starting in March of
2001 was caused by a drop in consumer confidence which started around
the November election. The drop in confidence was caused by the
president elect telling everyone that the economy was already in a
recession. Yes, I know he was lying, but some people believed him.
Even if they didn't believe him, people would worry that other people
might believe him. It seems silly, but there are still people out
there who believe George Bush's lies. What is it, 37% of the country
believes that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and that WMDs have
been found.
Bull *****.
Good comback. You asked for an explaination. I gave you one. If you
cannot refute it, then admit that you were wrong and get on with your
life.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
22 Sep 2004 05:03:10 AM |
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On 21 Sep 2004 08:15:33 -0700, (Tammy) wrote:
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message news:<7810l0lj9hh7lknibnn9jjfqtiutf8f384@4ax.com>...
On 20 Sep 2004 13:08:58 -0700, (Tammy) wrote:
Actually, based upon the misinformation that you cite, it appears that
you attack Kerry because you watch too much FOx News. Get the facts
and be more informed.
Those are the facts. They all use the same wire services.
duke
*****
No, they are actually not.
Anyone who thinks that Kerry is either "vacilating" or an "idiot", has
had his mind rotted by Fox News.
There's a reason that he's called flipper.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: kerry served 2 tours . . . bush zip |
22 Sep 2004 08:43:41 AM |
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duke wrote:
There's a reason that he's called flipper.
Right winger hate propaganda by ***** monkies like you.
Bussh is the Real flipper.
Bush told us he was against "nation building" and
then went nation building in Iraq lying us into a war.
You can't flip bigger than that.
Here, Let AWOL show you how to flip flop.
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin
Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest
until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
"I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said,
'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'"
- G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care.
It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)
--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
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