The words Hoshea and Yehoshua are two different words with two
different
meanings.

Hoshea (=D7=94=D7=95=D7=A9=D7=A2) is from the Hophal form meaning: he was =

saved.

Yehoshua (=D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=A9=D7=A2) is Y-H-V-H caused Salvation.

The prophet Hoshea (Hosea in the English versions) was a different
person than the son of Nun, and this apparently was done to
distinguish one man from the other.

The Masoretic text has always existed. That is what Masoretic text
means - it means passed down generation to generation. It happens to
be
that in the 10th Century, these texts were codified in writing with a
particular style of text pointing (Ben Asher) and punctuation
(cantillation). Meaning like this, the letters that we have, have
always existed, from the time they were written. If that is true,
then
we also have a particular way of pronunciation. This is also
connected
with the text, since you can't read it without punctuation. However,
there are different ways of representing this way of pronunciation in
the text. This was codified in the 10th Century, by what scholars
refer
to as "Masoretes". It should be pointed out that the oldest surviving
texts date back to about 2500 years ago, as part of the Dead Sea
Scroll collection. These texts suggest that the Masoretic text is indeed =

accurate representation of the text back then. This predates the
Septuagint, the NT, Peshitta and the Targums texts.

The the vav is added onto the end of the word of Yeshayah etc. The
Divine name Y-H-V-H added on to the end makes it Y-H-V. However, this
is what is written in the actual text of Yeshayah. The reason why the
"u" sound is not pronounced is reverence for the Divine Name itself,
and
is left out of common parlance. Reading however the actual text shows
that the name Yeshayahu is in fact his real name.

There is no deception here. It is simple a hint to pronunciation.
Everyone knows that the real name is Y-H-V-H the question is how to
pronounce it. Since this depends on the tradition, this is written in
with vowel pointers. However, it should be noted, that this is only
in
printed editions of the Tanakh. The reality is that in the scrolls,
there are no punctuation pointers at all, which actually causes a
scroll to become invalid.

In addition, more recent Hebrew versions of the Tanakh do not
ordinarily point the Divine name. (see Artscroll Stone Tanakh/Chumash)

=D7=AA=D7=94=D7=9C=D7=99=D7=9D =D7=A1=D7=97.=D7=93-: =D7=95=D7=A6=D7=93=D7=

=D7=94 =D7=A9=D7=99=D7=A8=D7=95, =D7=9C=D7=90=D7=9C=D7=94=D7=99=D7=9D =

=D7=A1=D7=9C=D7=95, =D7=9C=D7=A8=D7=9B=D7=91 =D7=91=D7=A2=D7=A8=D7=91=D7=

Psalms 68:4-5 reads:
4. And the righteous will rejoice and exalt out before G-d, and they
will exalt with gladness. 5. Sing to G-d, make music to His Name.
extol
He who rides on the heavens with His Name Y-H, , and exult before Him.

The word Y-H denotes Creator and Sustainer of the universe. (see
Artscroll Stone Tanakh,Radak)

The Masoretes do not make mistakes.
Btw, Strong's concordance simply tells you the source of the root, he
says nothing to support your view. In fact, it doesn't mean the same,
from the fact that it is used in a variety of places, but not
everywhere. An editor, if there would be one, would eliminate it

Danny.

The words Hoshea and Yehoshua are two different words with two
different
meanings.

Hoshea (=D7=94=D7=95=D7=A9=D7=A2) is from the Hophal form meaning: he was =

saved.

Yehoshua (=D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=A9=D7=A2) is Y-H-V-H caused Salvation.

The prophet Hoshea (Hosea in the English versions) was a different
person than the son of Nun, and this apparently was done to
distinguish one man from the other.

The Masoretic text has always existed. =C2=A0That is what Masoretic text
means - it means passed down generation to generation. =C2=A0It happens to=
be
that in the 10th Century, these texts were codified in writing with a
particular style of text pointing (Ben Asher) and punctuation
(cantillation). =C2=A0Meaning like this, the letters that we have, have
always existed, from the time they were written. =C2=A0If that is true,
then
we also have a particular way of pronunciation. =C2=A0This is also
connected
with the text, since you can't read it without punctuation. However,
there are different ways of representing this way of pronunciation in
the text. =C2=A0This was codified in the 10th Century, by what scholars
refer
to as "Masoretes". =C2=A0It should be pointed out that the oldest survivin=

texts date back to about 2500 years ago, as part of the Dead Sea
Scroll
collection. =C2=A0These texts suggest that the Masoretic text is indeed an=
accurate representation of the text back then. =C2=A0This predates the
Septuagint, the NT, Peshitta and the Targums texts.

The the vav is added onto the end of the word of Yeshayah etc. =C2=A0The
Divine name Y-H-V-H added on to the end makes it Y-H-V. =C2=A0However, thi=

is what is written in the actual text of Yeshayah. =C2=A0The reason why th=

"u" sound is not pronounced is reverence for the Divine Name itself,
and
is left out of common parlance. Reading however the actual text shows
that the name Yeshayahu is in fact his real name.

There is no deception here. =C2=A0It is simple a hint to pronunciation.
Everyone knows that the real name is Y-H-V-H the question is how to
pronounce it. =C2=A0Since this depends on the tradition, this is written i=

with vowel pointers. =C2=A0However, it should be noted, that this is only
in
printed editions of the Tanakh. =C2=A0The reality is that in the scrolls,
there are no punctuation pointers at all, which actually causes a
scroll
to become invalid.

In addition, more recent Hebrew versions of the Tanakh do not
ordinarily
=C2=A0point the Divine name. (see Artscroll Stone Tanakh/Chumash)

=D7=AA=D7=94=D7=9C=D7=99=D7=9D =D7=A1=D7=97.=D7=93-: =D7=95=D7=A6=D7=93=D7=

=D7=94 =C2=A0=D7=A9=D7=99=D7=A8=D7=95, =D7=9C=D7=90=D7=9C=D7=94=D7=99=D7=

=D7=A1=D7=9C=D7=95, =D7=9C=D7=A8=D7=9B=D7=91 =D7=91=D7=A2=D7=A8=D7=91=D7=

Psalms 68:4-5 reads:
4. And the righteous will rejoice and exalt out before G-d, and they
will exalt with gladness. 5. =C2=A0Sing to G-d, make music to His Name.
extol
He who rides on the heavens with His Name Y-H, , and exult before Him.

The word Y-H denotes Creator and Sustainer of the universe. (see
Artscroll Stone Tanakh,Radak)

The Masoretes do not make mistakes.
Btw, Strong's concordance simply tells you the source of the root, he
says nothing to support your view. =C2=A0In fact, it doesn't mean the same=

from the fact that it is used in a variety of places, but not
everywhere. =C2=A0An editor, if there would be one, would eliminate it

Danny.

The Jews accepted Jesus as a Messiah with divine powers,
as a celestial being. They rejected his "equality with
God" because they did not want this kind of divine
authority condemning them in their sins.

With all due respect, the Jews who remained Jews
considered Jesus of Nazareth a heretic who publicly
repudiated his Judaism with his heresies. We do not
recognize anything divine about him.

This is what the NT record indicates....
Joh 5:18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the
more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath,
but also called God his own Father, making himself equal
with God.

Those were serious offenses in that time.

Our Saviour the Messiah was not *just* a man; he was God incarnate in
the form of a man.

[Shmuel] =A0Yeshua never claimed equality with his Creator.
But, your false and imaginary "Jesus can claim equality
with God....". =A0The finite creature does not share an identity
with the Infinite Creator by definition except to / for the idolater.

You're ignoring the OT Scriptures claiming that God would incarnate as
our Saviour

Isa 59:15 =A0Yea, truth is lacking; and he that departeth from evil
maketh himself a prey. And Jehovah saw it, and it displeased him that
there was no justice.
Isa 59:16 =A0And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there
was no intercessor: therefore his own arm brought salvation unto him;
and his righteousness, it upheld him.
Isa 59:17 =A0And he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet
of salvation upon his head; and he put on garments of vengeance for
clothing, and was clad with zeal as a mantle.

This scripture shows crystal clear that God saw **no man could provide
salvation** and His intention was to incarnate Himself as our Saviour
("therefore his own arm brought salvation unto him").

Isn't that a beautiful Scripture? =A0It says God knew "no man" could be
the intercessor for those who had decided to depart from evil, so God
would do/did it himself.

Our Saviour the Messiah was not *just* a man; he was God incarnate in
the form of a man.

On Jan 17, 6:59 pm, "Shmuel Playfair" <SPlayfair> wrote:

[randy]

...Christians view this "mourning" as something future,
and not part of what Jews mourn for today. I believe
Zechariah prophesies a time of mourning for a divine
Messiah, one who seemed to have been killed by pagans
just as Josiah had been killed by pagans.

[Shmuel] Zechariah said nothing regarding your "divine
Messiah". You imposed that foreign idea into the text.

[randy]

Yes I did, but not without precedent. In Daniel 7 the
Messiah is portrayed as a "heavenly" being. In this passage
Messiah gets victory over pagan gods by the apparent defeat
of the Hebrew God.

[Shmuel] The one "like a son of Man" who comes "with
the clouds of heaven" and whom "they brought before
the Ancient of Days" and whom is given "dominion, honor,
and kingship" is *not* considered to be the Creator
(i.e. the Ancient of Days) become a man.

In the passage in Zechariah chapter 12 nothing is said
about "the apparent defeat of the Hebrew God".
_____________

[Shmuel] You had said that "Jesus had also been rejected
as a deity....when in fact he was deity". But "Jesus" was
*not* killed because anyone rejected him as being "a
deity".
And nothing he said indicated that he considered himself
to be "a deity".

[randy]

Yes he did. He said he would come down from heaven, in
similar fashion to Daniel's heavenly "son of man."...
Matthew 26:63 But Jesus was silent. And the high priest
said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you
are the Christ, the Son of God."
64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you,
hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right
hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

What I said was that the *Jews* rejected Jesus because "he
made himself equal with God." The Romans, however, had Jesus
executed out of fear of Jewish rioting and the threat that
Pilate would be implicated as part of Jesus' revolt against
Caesar.

[Shmuel] Jews never considered being "the Messiah,
the son of God" (the King of the Jews) to be someone
who is "equal with God".

REEPLY: Jesus claimed to be THE creator himself,

and worship from others, he did real miracles as attested to by eye
witnesses over and over again, he fullfilled over 200 ancient
prophecies of hiimself , then he predicted his own death and
ressurection then accomplished it. In fact, he was crucified for
claiming to be God in the flesh and for refusing to recant his
position. Just think for a moment...the actual Creator of the
UNIVERSE who spoke and it lept into being...actually came to earth and
lived in a human body with all of its problems and challenges, allowed
himself to be hated and abandoned and eventually nailed to a cross.
Our great Creator is extremely loving and self sacrificing and is
worthy of our worship and devotion. Its the greatest act of
gratefullness that can be made on our behalf. It is the very least we
could do. If you are willing to do so, you can be guaranteed a nice
eternity in his presence. I trust you want this Friend. It would be
nice to see you there ! Dave.

On Jan 17, 6:59 pm, "Shmuel Playfair" <SPlayfair> wrote:

[randy]

...Christians view this "mourning" as something future,
and not part of what Jews mourn for today. I believe
Zechariah prophesies a time of mourning for a divine
Messiah, one who seemed to have been killed by pagans
just as Josiah had been killed by pagans.

[Shmuel] Zechariah said nothing regarding your "divine
Messiah". You imposed that foreign idea into the text.

[randy]

Yes I did, but not without precedent. In Daniel 7 the
Messiah is portrayed as a "heavenly" being. In this passage
Messiah gets victory over pagan gods by the apparent defeat
of the Hebrew God.

[Shmuel] The one "like a son of Man" who comes "with
the clouds of heaven" and whom "they brought before
the Ancient of Days" and whom is given "dominion, honor,
and kingship" is *not* considered to be the Creator
(i.e. the Ancient of Days) become a man.

In the passage in Zechariah chapter 12 nothing is said
about "the apparent defeat of the Hebrew God".
_____________

[Shmuel] You had said that "Jesus had also been rejected
as a deity....when in fact he was deity". But "Jesus" was
*not* killed because anyone rejected him as being "a
deity".
And nothing he said indicated that he considered himself
to be "a deity".

[randy]

Yes he did. He said he would come down from heaven, in
similar fashion to Daniel's heavenly "son of man."...
Matthew 26:63 But Jesus was silent. And the high priest
said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you
are the Christ, the Son of God."
64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you,
hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right
hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

What I said was that the *Jews* rejected Jesus because "he
made himself equal with God." The Romans, however, had Jesus
executed out of fear of Jewish rioting and the threat that
Pilate would be implicated as part of Jesus' revolt against
Caesar.

[Shmuel] Jews never considered being "the Messiah,
the son of God" (the King of the Jews) to be someone
who is "equal with God".

REEPLY: Jesus claimed to be THE creator himself, he accepted praise
and worship from others, he did real miracles as attested to by eye
witnesses over and over again, he fullfilled over 200 ancient
prophecies of hiimself , then he predicted his own death and
ressurection then accomplished it. In fact, he was crucified for
claiming to be God in the flesh and for refusing to recant his
position. Just think for a moment...the actual Creator of the
UNIVERSE who spoke and it lept into being...actually came to earth and
lived in a human body with all of its problems and challenges, allowed
himself to be hated and abandoned and eventually nailed to a cross.
Our great Creator is extremely loving and self sacrificing and is
worthy of our worship and devotion. Its the greatest act of
gratefullness that can be made on our behalf. It is the very least we
could do. If you are willing to do so, you can be guaranteed a nice
eternity in his presence. I trust you want this Friend. It would be
nice to see you there ! Dave.