King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not equal to his Creator

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Shmuel Playfair SPlayfair"
Date:	17 Jan 2008 06:59:45 PM
Object:	King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not equal to his Creator

[randy]

...Christians view this "mourning" as something future,
and not part of what Jews mourn for today. I believe
Zechariah prophesies a time of mourning for a divine
Messiah, one who seemed to have been killed by pagans
just as Josiah had been killed by pagans.

[Shmuel] Zechariah said nothing regarding your "divine
Messiah". You imposed that foreign idea into the text.

[randy]

Yes I did, but not without precedent. In Daniel 7 the
Messiah is portrayed as a "heavenly" being. In this passage
Messiah gets victory over pagan gods by the apparent defeat
of the Hebrew God.

[Shmuel] The one "like a son of Man" who comes "with
the clouds of heaven" and whom "they brought before
the Ancient of Days" and whom is given "dominion, honor,
and kingship" is *not* considered to be the Creator
(i.e. the Ancient of Days) become a man.
In the passage in Zechariah chapter 12 nothing is said
about "the apparent defeat of the Hebrew God".
_____________

[Shmuel] You had said that "Jesus had also been rejected
as a deity....when in fact he was deity". But "Jesus" was
*not* killed because anyone rejected him as being "a
deity".
And nothing he said indicated that he considered himself
to be "a deity".

[randy]

Yes he did. He said he would come down from heaven, in
similar fashion to Daniel's heavenly "son of man."...
Matthew 26:63 But Jesus was silent. And the high priest
said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you
are the Christ, the Son of God."
64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you,
hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right
hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

What I said was that the *Jews* rejected Jesus because "he
made himself equal with God." The Romans, however, had Jesus
executed out of fear of Jewish rioting and the threat that
Pilate would be implicated as part of Jesus' revolt against
Caesar.

[Shmuel] Jews never considered being "the Messiah,
the son of God" (the King of the Jews) to be someone
who is "equal with God".
.

User: "randy"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	18 Jan 2008 12:10:30 PM

"Shmuel Playfair"

[Shmuel] Zechariah said nothing regarding your "divine
Messiah". You imposed that foreign idea into the text.

[randy]

Yes I did, but not without precedent. In Daniel 7 the
Messiah is portrayed as a "heavenly" being. In this
passage Messiah gets victory over pagan gods by the
apparent defeat of the Hebrew God.

At the very least he represents deity in the passage. I
think he does represent the Creator, and as such is divine.
We can argue about that till we're blue in the face. The
fact is, this "son of man" is a celestial being.

In the passage in Zechariah chapter 12 nothing is said
about "the apparent defeat of the Hebrew God".

The whole story of Josiah's defeat is a defeat for the
Hebrew God. (Of course, we realize that God can never "stay"
defeated!)

[randy]

...He said he would come down from heaven, in similar
fashion to Daniel's heavenly "son of man."...
Matthew 26:63 But Jesus was silent. And the high priest
said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if
you are the Christ, the Son of God."
64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you,
hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right
hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
What I said was that the *Jews* rejected Jesus because
"he made himself equal with God." The Romans, however,
had Jesus executed out of fear of Jewish rioting and the
threat that Pilate would be implicated as part of Jesus'
revolt against Caesar.

[Shmuel] Jews never considered being "the Messiah, the
son of God" (the King of the Jews) to be someone who is
"equal with God".

The Jews accepted Jesus as a Messiah with divine powers, as
a celestial being. They rejected his "equality with God"
because they did not want this kind of divine authority
condemning them in their sins.
This is what the NT record indicates....
Joh 5:18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more
to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also
called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
randy
.

User: "Shmuel Playfair SPlayfair"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	18 Jan 2008 02:42:29 PM

[randy]

[Shmuel] The prophets represent their God with out being
"divine". So, also, this one "like a son of Man" represents
his Creator without being the Greater than All, the Father.
Are you able to recognize or understand the difference
between "being" the Creator and "representing" Him?
____________

In the passage in Zechariah chapter 12 nothing is said
about "the apparent defeat of the Hebrew God".

[randy]

The whole story of Josiah's defeat is a defeat for the
Hebrew God. (Of course, we realize that God can never
"stay" defeated!)

[Shmuel] Josiah's death was a defeat for Josiah; it was not
a defeat for his "Hebrew God". Do you really believe that
the Creator can be defeated temporarily?
____________

[Shmuel] Jews never considered being "the Messiah, the
son of God" (the King of the Jews) to be someone who is
"equal with God".

[randy]

The Jews accepted Jesus as a Messiah with divine powers, as
a celestial being. They rejected his "equality with God"
because they did not want this kind of divine authority
condemning them in their sins.

This is what the NT record indicates....
Joh 5:18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more
to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also
called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

[Shmuel] Stars and God's messengers are considered to be
"celestial beings". But no one should consider "a celestial being"
to be equal with the Father Who is greater than *all* others.
Since we reject idol worship, we reject any human claim
to "equality with God". Many children of the Creator call
God their own Father. But, none of us (including Yeshua)
consider ourselves to be as great as He is.
Yeshua was misinterpreted by some as breaking the Shabbath
and as making himself equal with God. Sadly you apparently
misinterpret him too and agree with these two false charges.
.

User: "randy"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	20 Jan 2008 02:09:41 AM

"Shmuel Playfair" <

[randy]

...The fact is, this "son of man" is a celestial being.

[Shmuel] The prophets represent their God with out being
"divine". So, also, this one "like a son of Man"
represents his Creator without being the Greater than All,
the Father. Are you able to recognize or understand the
difference between "being" the Creator and "representing"
Him?

Of course. A being can represent God without being God. Or,
a being can represent God and be God.
As for your reference to the celestial "Son of Man" being
"the Father," I would remind you that the New Testament
representation of God as "the Father" occurs primarily in
connection with the relationship between God and His Son. So
we shouldn't describe the relationship between Father and
Son as a "Father and Father" relationship. That would be
insensible. If the Son is divine, he remains identified as
"the Son" so that Father and Son can be expressed in a
meaningful relationship.

[randy]

The whole story of Josiah's defeat is a defeat for the
Hebrew God. (Of course, we realize that God can never
"stay" defeated!)

[Shmuel] Josiah's death was a defeat for Josiah; it was
not a defeat for his "Hebrew God". Do you really believe
that the Creator can be defeated temporarily?

It is an *apparent* defeat--not a real defeat. It is only in
a certain sense a "defeat"--in the sense that God has lost
something dear to Him. It doesn't ever mean that God has
lost His omnipotence. When Adam and Eve sinned, God lost
something. He lost something precious to Him--the pleasant
relationship He had experienced between Himself and Adam and
Eve. So I can't say that God was "defeated" in the sense
that someone overpowered Him. Rather, God lost something in
the sense that subjects of His temporarily lost a battle.

[randy]

The Jews accepted Jesus as a Messiah with divine powers,
as a celestial being. They rejected his "equality with
God" because they did not want this kind of divine
authority condemning them in their sins.
This is what the NT record indicates....
Joh 5:18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the
more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath,
but also called God his own Father, making himself equal
with God.

[Shmuel] Stars and God's messengers are considered to be
"celestial beings". But no one should consider "a
celestial being" to be equal with the Father Who is
greater than *all* others.

God is "greater" only in the sense that He is identified as
an infinite Being. But He can also reveal Himself in the
form of finite revelations so that He appears in finite,
restricted forms. For example, the Spirit of God appears in
finite locations. Thus, the Spirit of God appears as less
than the entire infinite Being of God when He appears in a
finite, limited location.

Since we reject idol worship, we reject any human claim to
"equality with God". Many children of the Creator call
God their own Father. But, none of us (including Yeshua)
consider ourselves to be as great as He is.

Men other than Jesus should never claim to be equal with
God, because they are not. But Jesus can claim equality with
God in the sense that he shares the divine identity with
God. Even though he is a lesser revelation of God who is an
infinite Being, He nevertheless shares an identity with
deity. Nothing about this is "idolatrous."
randy
.

User: "Shmuel Playfair SPlayfair"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	20 Jan 2008 07:32:01 AM

...The fact is, this "son of man" is a celestial being.

[Shmuel] The prophets represent their God with out being
"divine". So, also, this one "like a son of Man"
represents his Creator without being the Greater than All,
the Father. Are you able to recognize or understand the
difference between "being" the Creator and "representing"
Him?

[randy]

Of course. A being can represent God without being God. Or,
a being can represent God and be God.

[Shmuel] What nonsense! It makes no intelligible sense
to claim that "a being can represent God and be God".
It makes no sense to claim that someone represents himself.
Are you randy or do you represent him?
____________
[randy continued]

As for your reference to the celestial "Son of Man" being
"the Father," I would remind you that the New Testament
representation of God as "the Father" occurs primarily in
connection with the relationship between God and His Son. So
we shouldn't describe the relationship between Father and
Son as a "Father and Father" relationship. That would be
insensible. If the Son is divine, he remains identified as
"the Son" so that Father and Son can be expressed in a
meaningful relationship.

[Shmuel] ? I made no reference "to the celestial 'Son of
Man' *being* 'the Father' ".
There is no reason to claim that "the Son is divine" or
that this "son" is a second or third, co-equal, co-eternal
god person. But, historically idolaters prefer a multiplicity
in their one "Godhead" or pantheon.
____________

[randy]

The whole story of Josiah's defeat is a defeat for the
Hebrew God. (Of course, we realize that God can never
"stay" defeated!)

[Shmuel] Josiah's death was a defeat for Josiah; it was
not a defeat for his "Hebrew God". Do you really believe
that the Creator can be defeated temporarily?

[randy]

[Shmuel] Play your word games with others who might care.
____________

[Shmuel] Stars and God's messengers are considered to be
"celestial beings". But no one should consider "a
celestial being" to be equal with the Father Who is
greater than *all* others.

[randy]

[Shmuel] While the imaginary, finite "Spirit of (your) God
appears in finite locations", the power and presence of
our God is not limited by location or defined by finite,
restricted forms.
_____________

[randy]

[Shmuel] Yeshua never claimed equality with his Creator.
But, your false and imaginary "Jesus can claim equality
with God....". The finite creature does not share an identity
with the Infinite Creator by definition except to / for the idolater.
.

User: "randy"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	29 Jan 2008 09:11:43 PM

"Shmuel Playfair"

[Shmuel] The prophets represent their God with out
being "divine". So, also, this one "like a son of Man"
represents his Creator without being the Greater than
All, the Father. Are you able to recognize or understand
the difference between "being" the Creator and
"representing" Him?

[randy]

Of course. A being can represent God without being God.
Or, a being can represent God and be God.

[Shmuel] What nonsense! It makes no intelligible sense
to claim that "a being can represent God and be God". It
makes no sense to claim that someone represents himself.
Are you randy or do you represent him?

I represent someone who calls himself "randy." I am randy.

[Shmuel] ? I made no reference "to the celestial 'Son of
Man' *being* 'the Father' ".

You said...
"The prophets represent their God with out being
"divine". So, also, this one "like a son of Man" represents
his Creator without being the Greater than All, the Father."
What you were doing was denying that this "Son of Man" was
the "Father." My argument was that the "Son of Man" was a
celestial being and could easily have been viewed as
divine--as a theophany, perhaps.

[Shmuel] Stars and God's messengers are considered to
be "celestial beings". But no one should consider "a
celestial being" to be equal with the Father Who is
greater than *all* others.

[randy]

God is "greater" only in the sense that He is identified
as an infinite Being. But He can also reveal Himself in
the form of finite revelations so that He appears in
finite, restricted forms. For example, the Spirit of God
appears in finite locations. Thus, the Spirit of God
appears as less than the entire infinite Being of God
when He appears in a finite, limited location.

[Shmuel] While the imaginary, finite "Spirit of (your)
God appears in finite locations", the power and presence
of our God is not limited by location or defined by
finite, restricted forms.

When the Spirit of God appeared in Scriptures it's clear
that He (God) restricted the manifestation of His presence
to certain locations.

[randy]

Men other than Jesus should never claim to be equal with
God, because they are not. But Jesus can claim equality
with God in the sense that he shares the divine identity
with God. Even though he is a lesser revelation of God
who is an infinite Being, He nevertheless shares an
identity with deity. Nothing about this is "idolatrous."

[Shmuel] Yeshua never claimed equality with his
Creator...

Yes he did. He said, "I and the Father are one."
randy
.

User: "Shmuel Playfair SPlayfair"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	02 Feb 2008 06:57:27 PM

[Shmuel] What nonsense! It makes no intelligible sense
to claim that "a being can represent God and be God". It
makes no sense to claim that someone represents himself.
Are you randy or do you represent him?

[randy]

I represent someone who calls himself "randy." I am randy.

[Shmuel] To "represent" someone means to "act in the place
*another* person as an agent or to be the authorized proxy
of another". If you are randy, you do not represent another
person called "randy". But in spite of knowing this, you
prefer to play with an unusual meaning of the word, which
makes you appear to others to be more interested in playing
word games than in a straight forward meaningful discussion.
___________

[Shmuel] ? I made no reference "to the celestial 'Son of
Man' *being* 'the Father' ".

[randy]

You said...
"The prophets represent their God with out being
"divine". So, also, this one "like a son of Man" represents
his Creator without being the Greater than All, the Father."

What you were doing was denying that this "Son of Man" was
the "Father." My argument was that the "Son of Man" was
a celestial being and could easily have been viewed as
divine--as a theophany, perhaps.

[Shmuel] Since the "Son of Man" is clearly differentiated
from the Ancient of Days, his Creator. There is no reason
for this authorized "Son of Adam" to be viewed "as
a theophany" or as being the Creator (Father).
____________

[Shmuel] While the imaginary, finite "Spirit of (your)
God appears in finite locations", the power and presence
of our God is not limited by location or defined by
finite, restricted forms.

[randy]

When the Spirit of God appeared in Scriptures it's clear
that He (God) restricted the manifestation of His presence
to certain locations.

[Shmuel] God's presence and power is not restricted to
certain locations as you suppose. When someone breaths
air in a particular location, we don't assume that the air has
been restricted to that particular location. So also when
God's presence and power is revealed in a certain
location. No one should claim that God's power and
presence has been restricted to just that place.
____________

[Shmuel] Yeshua never claimed equality with his
Creator...

[randy]

Yes he did. He said, "I and the Father are one."

[Shmuel] A son who becomes one with with his Creator
is *not* claiming to be as great as (or equal to) the One
Who sent him. Sons and daughters become one with
their Father in heaven by humbling and abasing themselves
and becoming obedient to the Father unto their deaths
rather then by grasping for equality with their Creator.
.

User: "randy"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	04 Feb 2008 12:57:18 AM

"Shmuel Playfair"

[Shmuel] To "represent" someone means to "act in the
place *another* person as an agent or to be the authorized
proxy of another". If you are randy, you do not represent
another person called "randy". But in spite of knowing
this, you prefer to play with an unusual meaning of the
word, which makes you appear to others to be more
interested in playing word games than in a straight
forward meaningful discussion.

If you want to call it "wordgames," then that's your choice.
It is an unusual example of "representation." For an
infinite God to represent His own infinite deity by the use
of finite representations is highly unusual, so you
shouldn't think that any example of how it works will quite
be adequate.

[randy]

...What you were doing was denying that this "Son of Man"
was the "Father." My argument was that the "Son of Man"
was a celestial being and could easily have been viewed
as divine--as a theophany, perhaps.

If the celestial "Son of Man" is differentiated from the
"Ancient of Days," and he was, then we have an example of
how the 2nd person of the Trinity can represent his own
infinite deity, personified as the "Ancient of Days."

[randy]

When the Spirit of God appeared in Scriptures it's clear
that He (God) restricted the manifestation of His
presence to certain locations.

[Shmuel] God's presence and power is not restricted to
certain locations as you suppose. When someone breaths
air in a particular location, we don't assume that the air
has
been restricted to that particular location. So also when
God's presence and power is revealed in a certain
location. No one should claim that God's power and
presence has been restricted to just that place.

I'm not saying the the deity of the Holy Spirit is limited
to one place--only His manifestation or revelation. Just as
the Spirit came down upon Jesus like a dove, the Spirit is
revealed in certain locations at certain times. That's what,
I believe, differentiates the Spirit of God from either the
Father of the Son. While it's true that the Son also is
limited in his revelation to one specific place at a time,
the "Son" is also limited also to only a certain man.

[Shmuel] Yeshua never claimed equality with his
Creator...

[randy]

Yes he did. He said, "I and the Father are one."

[Shmuel] A son who becomes one with with his Creator is
*not* claiming to be as great as (or equal to) the One Who
sent him. Sons and daughters become one with their Father
in heaven by humbling and abasing themselves and becoming
obedient to the Father unto their deaths rather then by
grasping for equality with their Creator.

No, I obeyed my own father, and never claimed to be "equal
with" him, or "one with" him! But the Jews fully recognized
that Jesus was claiming deity, albeit on the basis of a
relationship of man to deity. That is, Jesus was claiming to
be God on the level of humanity, something that these Jews
found repulsive only because Jesus "presumed," they thought,
to judge them as sinners.
randy
.

User: "Shmuel Playfair SPlayfair"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	04 Feb 2008 06:33:34 PM

[Shmuel] To "represent" someone means to "act in the
place *another* person as an agent or to be the authorized
proxy of another". If you are randy, you do not represent
another person called "randy". But in spite of knowing
this, you prefer to play with an unusual meaning of the
word, which makes you appear to others to be more
interested in playing word games than in a straight
forward meaningful discussion.

[randy]

If you want to call it "word games," then that's your choice.
It is an unusual example of "representation." For an
infinite God to represent His own infinite deity by the use
of finite representations is highly unusual, so you
shouldn't think that any example of how it works will quite
be adequate.

[Shmuel] Idolaters make the false claim that their finite
objects of worship are "finite representations" of
their god's "own infinite deity".
___________

[randy]

[Shmuel] We find no example of a foreign Threesome Deity
in the book of Daniel. Rather, we find the Creator giving
authority to this human creature (a son of Adam) who
represents his Maker (Father) without being Him.
____________

[Shmuel] God's presence and power is not restricted to
certain locations as you suppose. When someone breaths
air in a particular location, we don't assume that the air
has
been restricted to that particular location. So also when
God's presence and power is revealed in a certain
location, no one should claim that God's power and
presence has been restricted to just that place.

[randy]

[Shmuel] A limited or restricted human perception or
understanding of the Creator's spirit (power and presence)
goes without saying and is not a point worth making.
__________

[Shmuel] A son who becomes one with with his Creator is
*not* claiming to be as great as (or equal to) the One Who
sent him. Sons and daughters become one with their Father
in heaven by humbling and abasing themselves and becoming
obedient to the Father unto their deaths rather then by
grasping for equality with their Creator.

[randy]

[Shmuel] A son's obedience to a father's will expresses
a son's oneness with his father. But this obedient oneness
with one's Creator is *not* a claim of equality with the One
Who is far *greater* than *all* others including every child
of the Creator.
.

User: "randy"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	05 Feb 2008 02:19:17 PM

"Shmuel Playfair"

[randy]

If you want to call it "word games," then that's your
choice. It is an unusual example of "representation." For
an infinite God to represent His own infinite deity by
the use of finite representations is highly unusual, so
you shouldn't think that any example of how it works will
quite be adequate.

[Shmuel] Idolaters make the false claim that their finite
objects of worship are "finite representations" of their
god's "own infinite deity".

You define "idolatry" by your own theological construct--not
by orthodox Christian standards. And Christianity defines
"idolatry" by its own orthodoxy.

[randy]

Those are your words--not the words of Scripture. The fact
Messiah is associated with the Creator, or the fact God's
word is associated with God Himself, does not mean that the
Messiah or God's word was not God! Deity, in Christian
theology, extends from an infinite dimension to the finite
dimension in which we live. This means that finite
representations of deity are still deity!

[randy]

I'm not saying that the deity of the Holy Spirit is
limited to one place--only His manifestation or
revelation. Just as the Spirit came down upon Jesus like
a dove, the Spirit is revealed in certain locations at
certain times. That's what, I believe, differentiates the
Spirit of God from either the Father of the Son. While
it's true that the Son also is limited in his revelation
to one specific place at a time, the "Son" is also
limited also to only a certain man.

[Shmuel] A limited or restricted human perception or
understanding of the Creator's spirit (power and presence)
goes without saying and is not a point worth making.

It is the entire point! If God's revelation of His own
personality assumes a particular focus in time and place,
and yet maintains its identity as God, then we have a basis
for belief in the deity of Messiah.

[randy]

[Shmuel] A son's obedience to a father's will expresses a
son's oneness with his father. But this obedient oneness
with one's Creator is *not* a claim of equality with the
One Who is far *greater* than *all* others including every
child of the Creator.

The Jews obviously saw it differently. They accused Jesus of
claiming equality with God.
Furthermore, obedience to God as one's "Father" is not
normally described in terms of "oneness." The kind of
conformity that suggest "obedience" is not what the
Scriptures described in terms of Jesus' obedience to the
Father. Rather, Jesus is described in terms of *perfect
conjunctivity,* rather than simple conformity. Jesus did
precisely *everything* that he saw the Father doing. This
goes way, way beyond simple human obedience.
randy
.

User: ""
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal tohis Creator**	02 Feb 2008 08:16:12 PM

On Feb 2, 4:57=A0pm, "Shmuel Playfair" <SPlayfair> wrote:

[Shmuel] =A0A son who becomes one with with his Creator
is *not* claiming to be as great as (or equal to) the One
Who sent him. =A0Sons and daughters become one with
their Father in heaven by humbling and abasing themselves
and becoming obedient to the Father unto their deaths
rather then by grasping for equality with their Creator.

You play a twisted game of combining false Jewish belief with false
Christian belief. Jesus is Jehoshua Moshiach, and as JHVSA He is the
true LORD of Israel, superseding the false name for the LORD, JHVH.
He is also distinct from the Creator, ALHJM. ALHJM is the Alpha and
JHVSA is the Omega, the perfecter and finisher of our faith. Those
who do not accept JHVSA as the true LORD face only oblivion, for there
is no turning back to the troubled past. Even yet, it may not be too
late for Jews to repent and accept JHVSA as the Jewish Messiah.
.

User: ""
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal tohis Creator**	29 Jan 2008 09:27:41 PM

On Jan 29, 7:11=A0pm, "randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote:

"Shmuel Playfair"

[Shmuel] =A0Yeshua never claimed equality with his
Creator...

Yes he did. He said, "I and the Father are one."
randy

Randy, Randy, at least quote chapter and verse to the heretic:
John 10:
[24] Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long
dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works
that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said
unto you.
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is
able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
[30] I and my Father are one.
.

User: "Mark T moi@home000whatever191"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	20 Jan 2008 04:08:11 PM

"Shmuel Playfair" wrote:

The finite creature does not share an identity with the Infinite Creator
by definition except to / for the idolater.

This is a common problem. It is often stated that Jesus is indeed finite but
that Jesus has an infinite spirit. But what is spirit?
What is your definition of spirit? If God is spirit what does that mean?
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall

.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	20 Jan 2008 07:24:58 PM

"Mark T" <moi@home000whatever191> wrote in message
news:4793c64c$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

"Shmuel Playfair" wrote:

The finite creature does not share an identity with the Infinite Creator
by definition except to / for the idolater.

This is a common problem. It is often stated that Jesus is indeed finite
but that Jesus has an infinite spirit. But what is spirit?

Except Jesus wasn't finite: Only Pharisees and other frauds say such things.
Ike
.

User: ""
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater thanhis Creator	20 Jan 2008 07:30:18 PM

On Jan 20, 5:24=A0pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

"Mark T" <moi@home000whatever191> wrote in message

news:4793c64c$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

"Shmuel Playfair" wrote:

The finite creature does not share an identity with the Infinite Creato=

by definition except to / for the idolater.

This is a common problem. It is often stated that Jesus is indeed finite=
but that Jesus has an infinite spirit. =A0But what is spirit?

Except Jesus wasn't finite: Only Pharisees and other frauds say such thing=

Ike

Modern Jews have only one accomplishment to their name: they have
mastered the art of lying. In order to oppose Jesus, they have
falsified their own religion a thousand times over. There is now
nothing left of Judaism. It is but an empty shell. I am undertaking
the project of reviving Judaism, since the Baal Shem Tov, who had the
same goal, has obviously failed utterly. He must have been a false
prophet.
.

User: "Shmuel Playfair SPlayfair"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	20 Jan 2008 06:13:14 PM

The finite creature does not share an identity with the Infinite Creator
by definition except to / for the idolater.

[Mark T]

[Shmuel] I understand "spirit" as a reference to a person's power,
vitality,
or presence. Those who wrote the accounts regarding "Jesus" indicate
that he had a finite human spirit like all other human creatures. They
never gave any indication to the contrary.
When we say that "God is spirit" that often indicates that He is not
visible or mortal flesh and blood. As Yeshua taught, "The God is
spirit and those worshipping Him (not Us or Me) must worship
Him in spirit and in truth". [John 4.23-24]
.

User: "Mark T moi@home000whatever191"
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	20 Jan 2008 08:28:31 PM

"Shmuel Playfair" wrote:

The finite creature does not share an identity with the Infinite Creator
by definition except to / for the idolater.

[Mark T]

[Shmuel] I understand "spirit" as a reference to a person's power,
vitality, or presence. Those who wrote the accounts regarding "Jesus"
indicate
that he had a finite human spirit like all other human creatures. They
never gave any indication to the contrary.

When we say that "God is spirit" that often indicates that He is not
visible or mortal flesh and blood.

The One God is therefore infinite "power, vitality and / or presence".
If Jesus of Nazareth is FULLY God then Jesus of Nazareth must have infinite
power, vitality and / or presence. I see no evidence of that. One reason
that it is not true is that Jesus of Nzareth can only be in ONE place at a
time. God is everywhere. Other evidences against Jesus of Nazareth being
the One God are his healing in stages (not instantaneous), his inability to
perform miracles because of OTHER people's lack of faith, his inability to
know what his Father (the One God) knows.

As Yeshua taught, "The God is
spirit and those worshipping Him (not Us or Me) must worship
Him in spirit and in truth". [John 4.23-24]

Although the historic Jesus of Nazreth never said this it remains true.
Jesus of Nazareth always promoted worship of the One God rather than
himself.
--
When the human JEWISH Jesus of Nazareth and his JEWISH disciples went to the
JEWISH Temple at Jerusalem they DIDN'T worship Jesus as the One God there!
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
.

User: ""
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal tohis Creator**	20 Jan 2008 10:44:14 PM

On Jan 20, 6:28=A0pm, "Mark T" <moi@home000whatever191> wrote:

"Shmuel Playfair" wrote:

The finite creature does not share an identity with the Infinite Creat=

by definition except to / for the idolater.

[Mark T]

This is a common problem. It is often stated that Jesus is indeed finit=

but that Jesus has an infinite spirit. =A0But what is spirit?

What is your definition of spirit? =A0If God is spirit what does that m=

ean?

[Shmuel] =A0I understand "spirit" as a reference to a person's power,
vitality, or presence. =A0Those who wrote the accounts regarding "Jesus"=
indicate
that he had a finite human spirit like all other human creatures. =A0The=

never gave any indication to the contrary.

When we say that "God is spirit" that often indicates that He is not
visible or mortal flesh and blood.

The One God is therefore infinite "power, vitality and / or presence".

If Jesus of Nazareth is FULLY God then Jesus of Nazareth must have infinit=

power, vitality and / or presence. =A0I see no evidence of that. One reaso=

that it is not true is that Jesus of Nzareth can only be in ONE place at a=
time. =A0God is everywhere. =A0Other evidences against Jesus of Nazareth b=

eing

the One God are his healing in stages (not instantaneous), his inability t=

perform miracles because of OTHER people's lack of faith, his inability to=
know what his Father (the One God) knows.

As Yeshua taught, "The God is
spirit and those worshipping Him (not Us or Me) must worship
Him in spirit and in truth". =A0[John 4.23-24]

Although the historic Jesus of Nazreth never said this it remains true.

Jesus of Nazareth always promoted worship of the One God rather than
himself.

He never once mentioned JHVH. From that it can concluded that He did
not teach to worship JHVH. Your "One God" is therefore not in
evidence. He spoke of G-D as Father, or ABBA, Aleph Beth Aleph in the
Hebrew. Jews had never used that name for the "One God" before, so
your statements are all lies, blatant lies, by a pathological liar.
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: *Re: King Messiah, the metaphorical "son of God", is not* equal to his Creator**	21 Jan 2008 04:26:55 AM

<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:777f8a2e-b466-4bf8-af9c-4444967af9dc@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]

He never once mentioned JHVH.

Because He IS "JHVH," you idiot.
[snip]
Ike
P.S. fix your damned newsreader.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater thanHis Creator	21 Jan 2008 06:42:50 AM

On Jan 21, 2:26=A0am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:777f8a2e-b466-4bf8-af9c-4444967af9dc@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

[snip]

He never once mentioned JHVH.

Because He IS "JHVH," you idiot.

[snip]

Ike

P.S. fix your damned newsreader.

Again, Genesis 18 disproves your assertion and proves YOU the idiot.
Abraham addresses Raphael, and only Raphael, as JHVH, repeatedly and
consistently. If you don't care about your discrepency with
scripture, then you are a deceiver, so please stop repeating the same
old lie over and over. Address the discrepency with scripture. I
believe at one point you claimed that it was Jesus who appeared to
Abraham. How do you explain the fact that no Bible scholar, Jew or
Christian, believes that. Everyone agrees that the three "men" were
the three angels, Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael. It is certainly part
of the oral tradition of Judaism that the three "men" were the three
enumerated angels and that the one addressed as JHVH was Raphael.
This is stated explicitly in the Yemenite Midrash, among other
places. It is true that Rabbis have not known what to make of this,
and so they have tried to ignore it, but they certainly had no
ulterior motive in declaring Raphael to be JHVH, since it seems to
falsify their entire religion. Yet they could not and did not in this
case deny what the LORD had told them. It is very critical to
Christianity, since it provides the only explanation of how Jesus
could be the only begotten Son of God. He was begotten by Raphael and
His Divine Consort, Mother Mary. Every valley shall be exalted, and
every mountain laid low. Mother Mary is an Archaii, who represents
Elohim, while JHVH is but the angel Raphael (and not the true LORD, at
all).
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater than His Creator	21 Jan 2008 07:44:50 AM

<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:be9798e7-861f-464e-a403-3f5a47635036@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 21, 2:26 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:777f8a2e-b466-4bf8-af9c-4444967af9dc@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

[snip]

He never once mentioned JHVH.

Because He IS "JHVH," you idiot.

[snip]

Ike

P.S. fix your damned newsreader.
Again, Genesis 18 disproves your assertion and proves YOU the idiot.
Abraham addresses Raphael, and only Raphael, as JHVH, repeatedly and
consistently.

Horseshit.
There is no "Raphael" mentioned IN Genesis.
And Jesus said HE was there, not some imaginary friend of yours.

If you don't care about your discrepency with
scripture, then you are a deceiver, so please stop repeating the same
old lie over and over. Address the discrepency with scripture. I
believe at one point you claimed that it was Jesus who appeared to
Abraham.

No, I didn't "claim" anything. JESUS claimed it was He who appeared to
Abraham.
Jesus: "Abraham rejoiced to see me in my day."
the Jews: "You are not yet fifty years old and you say you have seen
Abraham?"
Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I AM."
And He didn't say anything about any "Raphael" being there.
'nuff said.
[snip]
Ike
P.S. fix your newsreader.
P.S.S. That's "Theosophical Society" cultist, not JW cultist.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater thanHis Creator	21 Jan 2008 12:16:25 PM

On Jan 21, 5:44=A0am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:be9798e7-861f-464e-a403-3f5a47635036@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 21, 2:26 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:777f8a2e-b466-4bf8-af9c-4444967af9dc@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

[snip]

He never once mentioned JHVH.

Because He IS "JHVH," you idiot.

[snip]

Ike

P.S. fix your damned newsreader.
Again, Genesis 18 disproves your assertion and proves YOU the idiot.
Abraham addresses Raphael, and only Raphael, as JHVH, repeatedly and
consistently.

Horseshit.

There is no "Raphael" mentioned IN Genesis.

And Jesus said HE was there, not some imaginary friend of yours.

=A0If you don't care about your discrepency with
scripture, then you are a deceiver, so please stop repeating the same
old lie over and over. =A0Address the discrepency with scripture. =A0I
believe at one point you claimed that it was Jesus who appeared to
Abraham.

No, I didn't "claim" anything. JESUS claimed it was He who appeared to
Abraham.

Jesus: "Abraham rejoiced to see me in my day."

the Jews: "You are not yet fifty years old and you say you have seen
Abraham?"

Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I AM."

And He didn't say anything about any "Raphael" being there.

'nuff said.

Nonsense. What did "see me in my day" have to do with the birth of
Isaac or the destruction of Sodom, the two things on the agenda in
Genesis 18?
Suffice it to say, there is no Biblical scholar or sage who agrees
with you, whereas they ALL agree with me. Now enough said.

[snip]

Ike

P.S. fix your newsreader.

P.S.S. That's "Theosophical Society" cultist, not JW cultist.

TS is not a cult - it is a society for the study of comparative
religion. It has no fixed belief system of its own, but encourages
freethinking and comparison of all sources of truth. "Truth wherever
it may be found" is the watchword. To the degree that it is a cult,
Jesus was and is a member. It does exist in reference to the
Universal Brotherhood of Masters and Angels, and Jesus is most
certainly a member of that Brotherhood. You don't want to know the
real living Jesus - you just want Him for the sake of the dogma that
you think He provides. Actually, He is against dogma of all kinds,
including Christianity.
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater than His Creator	21 Jan 2008 06:55:03 PM

<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:976bb0c5-22eb-417d-acba-42366048be27@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
[snip]

Nonsense. What did "see me in my day" have to do with the birth of
Isaac or the destruction of Sodom, the two things on the agenda in
Genesis 18?

Jesus was there--that's what it has to do with it.

Suffice it to say, there is no Biblical scholar or sage who agrees
with you, whereas they ALL agree with me. Now enough said.

Nonsense: I've heard plenty of people who acknowledged that it was Jesus who
showed up throughout history taking care of business.
Not that it matters, as I am not going by what other people say, but what
the Word says, and the Word says He was there.
In fact, the Word says that He is both the root AND offspring of David,
which puts Him at the beginning and end of the chain at the same time, i.e.
Jesus formed Adam of the dust of the ground, but it was Jesus who came from
the lineage from Adam, through David, to Him.
[snip]

...said the ridiculous cultist of the restored Babylon, reviving the "ancient
mystery religion" of abomination, just like the prophets said would happen.
And I don't care what name you give it: TS, "The Great White Brotherhood,"
the "I AM" movement--it's ALL the same antichristian, antigod, Babylonian
nonsense condemned by Jesus and His prophets.
And FIX YOUR NEWSREADER, moron: You're making a mess of the quote functions,
as well as the Bible.
Ike
.

User: ""
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater thanHis Creator	21 Jan 2008 07:39:20 PM

On Jan 21, 4:55=A0pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:976bb0c5-22eb-417d-acba-42366048be27@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

[snip]

Nonsense. =A0What did "see me in my day" have to do with the birth of
Isaac or the destruction of Sodom, the two things on the agenda in
Genesis 18?

Jesus was there--that's what it has to do with it.

Suffice it to say, there is no Biblical scholar or sage =A0who agrees
with you, whereas they ALL agree with me. =A0Now enough said.

Nonsense: I've heard plenty of people who acknowledged that it was Jesus w=

showed up throughout history taking care of business.

Not that it matters, as I am not going by what other people say, but what
the Word says, and the Word says He was there.

In fact, the Word says that He is both the root AND offspring of David,
which puts Him at the beginning and end of the chain at the same time, i.e=

Jesus formed Adam of the dust of the ground, but it was Jesus who came fro=

the lineage from Adam, through David, to Him.

[snip]

TS is not a cult - it is a society for the study of comparative
religion. =A0It has no fixed belief system of its own, but encourages
freethinking and comparison of all sources of truth. =A0"Truth wherever
it may be found" is the watchword. =A0To the degree that it is a cult,
Jesus was and is a member. =A0It does exist in reference to the
Universal Brotherhood of Masters and Angels, and Jesus is most
certainly a member of that Brotherhood. =A0You don't want to know the
real living Jesus - you just want Him for the sake of the dogma that
you think He provides. =A0Actually, He is against dogma of all kinds,
including Christianity.

..said the ridiculous cultist of the restored Babylon, reviving the "ancie=

mystery religion" of abomination, just like the prophets said would happen=

And I don't care what name you give it: TS, "The Great White Brotherhood,"=
the "I AM" movement--it's ALL the same antichristian, antigod, Babylonian
nonsense condemned by Jesus and His prophets.

And FIX YOUR NEWSREADER, moron: You're making a mess of the quote function=

as well as the Bible.

Ike

You make no sense, and when Jehoshua does come, you will answer to Him
for all of your prejudicial lies. That is the glory of having a G-D
come in the flesh. We don't have to guess or rely on what priests say
or any third party says. He will tell us when He comes who is right
and who is wrong. I say you are dead wrong about almost everything.
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater than His Creator	21 Jan 2008 07:56:54 PM

<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:973e10c2-c8df-4096-8866-3593dc46853a@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 21, 4:55 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

<pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:976bb0c5-22eb-417d-acba-42366048be27@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

[snip]

Nonsense. What did "see me in my day" have to do with the birth of
Isaac or the destruction of Sodom, the two things on the agenda in
Genesis 18?

Jesus was there--that's what it has to do with it.

Suffice it to say, there is no Biblical scholar or sage who agrees
with you, whereas they ALL agree with me. Now enough said.

Nonsense: I've heard plenty of people who acknowledged that it was Jesus
who
showed up throughout history taking care of business.

Not that it matters, as I am not going by what other people say, but what
the Word says, and the Word says He was there.

In fact, the Word says that He is both the root AND offspring of David,
which puts Him at the beginning and end of the chain at the same time,
i.e.
Jesus formed Adam of the dust of the ground, but it was Jesus who came
from
the lineage from Adam, through David, to Him.

[snip]

..said the ridiculous cultist of the restored Babylon, reviving the
"ancient
mystery religion" of abomination, just like the prophets said would
happen.

And I don't care what name you give it: TS, "The Great White Brotherhood,"
the "I AM" movement--it's ALL the same antichristian, antigod, Babylonian
nonsense condemned by Jesus and His prophets.

And FIX YOUR NEWSREADER, moron: You're making a mess of the quote
functions,
as well as the Bible.

Ike
You make no sense, and when Jehoshua does come, you will answer to Him
for all of your prejudicial lies.

NOT "prejudicial lies." Prophetic warnings, for the coming of your
Babylonian-inspired cult was pre-ordained.

That is the glory of having a G-D
come in the flesh.

See, you reveal your own lies.
Jesus is not "a" God.
He is God, PERIOD, and God of gods (i.e. the believers) by inheritance.
And nothing in your Babylonian pantheism will change that.

We don't have to guess or rely on what priests say
or any third party says. He will tell us when He comes who is right
and who is wrong.

The one you THINK is coming is not Christ, but antichrist, but in the end,
you'll be answering to us, NOT us to him.
Dan 8:23-25
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come
to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences,
shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and
he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall
destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall
cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his
heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the
Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
You may kill us today, but you'll be bowing to us tomorrow.

I say you are dead wrong about almost everything.

Guess again, Bucko. I know who and what you are, because He told us...
Col 2:18-19
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and
worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen,
vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head, from which
all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit
together, increaseth with the increase of God.
2Co 11:10-15
As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting
in the regions of Achaia.
Wherefore? because I love you not?
God knoweth.
But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them
which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as
we.
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves
into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed
into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also
be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be
according to their works.
2Ti 4:3-5
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but
after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching
ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be
turned unto fables.
You're not fooling anyone, son of sorcery.
Ike
.

User: "Linda Lee"
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater thanHis Creator	21 Jan 2008 09:17:46 PM

On Jan 21, 1:16 pm,

wrote:

On Jan 21, 5:44 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:be9798e7-861f-464e-a403-3f5a47635036@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 21, 2:26 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:777f8a2e-b466-4bf8-af9c-4444967af9dc@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

[snip]

He never once mentioned JHVH.

Because He IS "JHVH," you idiot.

[snip]

Ike

P.S. fix your damned newsreader.
Again, Genesis 18 disproves your assertion and proves YOU the idiot.
Abraham addresses Raphael, and only Raphael, as JHVH, repeatedly and
consistently.

Horseshit.

There is no "Raphael" mentioned IN Genesis.

And Jesus said HE was there, not some imaginary friend of yours.

No, I didn't "claim" anything. JESUS claimed it was He who appeared to
Abraham.

Jesus: "Abraham rejoiced to see me in my day."

the Jews: "You are not yet fifty years old and you say you have seen
Abraham?"

Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I AM."

This is the ISV Bible's rendering of John 8:56-58 "Your father Abraham
rejoiced that he would see my day, and he saw it and was glad". Then
the Jews said to him, "You are not even fifty years old, yet you have
seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I tell you, before
there was an Abraham, I am!"
The Greek manuscripts agree with the ISV Bible's rendering, and add a
footnote stating, "Other ancient manuscripts read 'has Abraham seen
you'?"
Melchizedek is a title, rather than a name. Melchizedek - Heb. 4442 -
Malkiy-Tsedeq - is from 'Malkiy' (Heb. 4428) meaning King and
'Tsedeq' (Heb. 6664) meaning the right (natural, moral or legal);
rendered righteousness.
The Messiah was Melchizedek in the form of the righteous "King of
Salem" who was "the priest of the most high God" and who blessed
Abraham (Abram) in Gen. 14:18-19.
"In the beginning, two thousand years before the heaven and the earth,
seven things were created: the Torah written with black fire on white
fire, and lying in the lap of God; the Divine Throne, erected in the
heaven which later was over the heads of the Hayyot; Paradise on the
right side of God, Hell on the left side; the Celestial Sanctuary
directly in front of God, having a jewel on its altar graven with the
Name of the Messiah, and a Voice that cries aloud, "Return, ye
children of men"." (From "Legends of the Jews" by Louis Ginzberg.)
Everything mentioned here in this writing is indicative of God's plan
of salvation - Paradise, the throne of God, the Torah to teach men how
to return to God, Hell (as the afterlife/Sheol) holding them apart
from God until they can 'overcome the world', and a voice (the voice
of God) that cries "Return, ye children of men" in other words, return
to God.
This jewel is on the altar (of sacrifice) directly in front of God,
and a 'jewel' is symbolic of an incarnation (as Israel is God's
"peculiar treasure" - Ps. 135:4).
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater than His Creator	22 Jan 2008 12:04:35 AM

"Linda Lee" <lindagirl444@juno.com> wrote in message
news:b79362e2-6d9b-4504-81da-9f7c6d141695@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

On Jan 21, 1:16 pm,

wrote:

On Jan 21, 5:44 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:be9798e7-861f-464e-a403-3f5a47635036@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 21, 2:26 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:

> wrote in message

news:777f8a2e-b466-4bf8-af9c-4444967af9dc@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

[snip]

He never once mentioned JHVH.

Because He IS "JHVH," you idiot.

[snip]

Ike

P.S. fix your damned newsreader.
Again, Genesis 18 disproves your assertion and proves YOU the idiot.
Abraham addresses Raphael, and only Raphael, as JHVH, repeatedly and
consistently.

Horseshit.

There is no "Raphael" mentioned IN Genesis.

And Jesus said HE was there, not some imaginary friend of yours.

No, I didn't "claim" anything. JESUS claimed it was He who appeared to
Abraham.

Jesus: "Abraham rejoiced to see me in my day."

the Jews: "You are not yet fifty years old and you say you have seen
Abraham?"

Jesus: "Before Abraham was, I AM."

Which has what to do with what?
Jesus set up another of His dualistic statements, using the "truly, truly"
reiteration that shows up throughout the Gospel of John (in addition to the
"is now / is coming" dichotomy).
Abraham has already been to the end of all things, and seen Jesus' day (as
Jesus also said in His rebuke of the Sadducees, i.e. "God is not the God of
the dead, but of the living).
The Jews, not understanding what Jesus said, asked if Jesus had seen
Abraham.
Of course He had--He is the I AM that was with Israel the whole time, and
even before.
Hence, it was Jesus and His two escorts (probably Michael and Gabriel,
a.k.a. Moses and Elijah) who visited Abraham in Abraham's day, and Abraham
who will rejoice with Christ in Christ's day (which is yet to come).

The Greek manuscripts agree with the ISV Bible's rendering, and add a
footnote stating, "Other ancient manuscripts read 'has Abraham seen
you'?"

???
Still waiting for a point.

Melchizedek is a title, rather than a name. Melchizedek - Heb. 4442 -
Malkiy-Tsedeq - is from 'Malkiy' (Heb. 4428) meaning King and
'Tsedeq' (Heb. 6664) meaning the right (natural, moral or legal);
rendered righteousness.

The Messiah was Melchizedek in the form of the righteous "King of
Salem" who was "the priest of the most high God" and who blessed
Abraham (Abram) in Gen. 14:18-19.

"In the beginning, two thousand years before the heaven and the earth,
seven things were created: the Torah written with black fire on white
fire, and lying in the lap of God; the Divine Throne, erected in the
heaven which later was over the heads of the Hayyot; Paradise on the
right side of God, Hell on the left side; the Celestial Sanctuary
directly in front of God, having a jewel on its altar graven with the
Name of the Messiah, and a Voice that cries aloud, "Return, ye
children of men"." (From "Legends of the Jews" by Louis Ginzberg.)

"Legend" is right: The bulk of the Torah was written from various source
works (noted by Ezra), previously given prophecies, oral traditions handed
down from generation to generation, and a little adaptation of
Assyro-Babylonian legend acquired during the exile, which the authors used
to condemn the Assyro-Babylonians themselves (as per parts of Genesis,
Ezekiel, and Jeremiah).
Ezra wrote down a huge chunk of it. Barauch, Jeremiah's scribe, also wrote a
huge chunk.

Everything mentioned here in this writing is indicative of God's plan
of salvation - Paradise, the throne of God, the Torah to teach men how
to return to God, Hell (as the afterlife/Sheol) holding them apart
from God until they can 'overcome the world', and a voice (the voice
of God) that cries "Return, ye children of men" in other words, return
to God.

Except the Jews were infiltrated by non-Jews, who took over the mantle of
leadership (i.e. the bulk of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Herodians), and
perverted the things of God, as Jesus, Paul, and John all indicated.
And these are the leaders who keep the Jews from the Word of truth to this
day.

This jewel is on the altar (of sacrifice) directly in front of God,
and a 'jewel' is symbolic of an incarnation (as Israel is God's
"peculiar treasure" - Ps. 135:4).

Now if you only knew what the "Jewels" meant.
Ike
.

User: "Qadosh Stephanos"
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater than His Creator	22 Jan 2008 08:41:55 PM

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:17:46 -0800 (PST), Linda Lee
<lindagirl444@juno.com> wrote:

But we are surrounded by the voices, and the harnesses of babblers.
God in the conteplecation of pharisaical realigning has allowances.
People of Paul have determined the people of Messiah are the enemy.
.

User: "Linda Lee"
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater thanHis Creator	23 Jan 2008 09:06:03 AM

On Jan 22, 9:41 pm, Qadosh Stephanos <qadosh.stepha...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

People of Paul have determined the people of Messiah are the enemy.

Ironic, isn't it? Proving that they are the enemy of the Messiah.
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: KING Messiah, the metaphorical "Son of God", is much greater than His Creator	23 Jan 2008 09:59:36 AM

"Linda Lee" <lindagirl444@juno.com> wrote in message
news:c87c7022-54ec-4d06-b85a-56bfba4e7b8c@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

On Jan 22, 9:41 pm, Qadosh Stephanos <qadosh.stepha...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

People of Paul have determined the people of Messiah are the enemy.

Ironic, isn't it? Proving that they are the enemy of the Messiah.

Ah, no, Jesus, Paul, and John all said that YOU aren't the "people of
Messiah" to begin with--you're "the Jews who are not Jews." You say you are
Jews, but are not, but do lie. If you were Jews who were Jews indeed, you
would UNDERSTAND what Messiah, Paul, and John were talking about.
Ike
.