| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
11 Jun 2007 02:48:48 PM |
| Object: |
Kingdom of God |
There are many who say that the Kingdom of God
is something that will be seen later, after this world
is destroyed and a new Earth is created. But I tend
to refer to what Jesus said, since our reading of
other texts should be based on His words and not
what we want to read into other writings from books
which are symbolic, such as Revelation, which may
be the most symbolic book in the Bible and yet,
is read by Dispensationalists, as if it is the most literal.
So I ask a few questions, based on Jesus' words and not
that of Dispensationalists, who I believe have become so
indoctrinated into their doctrines, that they filter the Bible
through their doctrine, instead of the other way around
and have come to believe that what they say is actually
found in the Bible. For example, they say that...
"The AntiChrist is found in Daniel", when in reality,
Daniel never uses that word. But say that to them
and they quote another passage that says, "little horn"
as proof that Daniel said "AntiChrist" and claim they
are synonymous. But where does THE BIBLE say that?
It doesn't. Their doctrine does and that is my point.
So let's see what Jesus said and let's ask some common
sense questions and see what we come up with. You
must answer these for yourself. But if you immediately
go into a mode in which you are trying to protect your
doctrine in your mind, then you have already admitted
that your doctrine is not found in His words. And if
these questions make you angry, then ask yourself
why asking questions about what Jesus said, makes
you angry. After all, I'm not preaching any doctrine
at all here. I am only asking questions. Now since
when is that something we should avoid?
And these questions are not meant to invite answers.
I ask them so that you may think within yourselves
what those answers are. I hope that you lay yourself
bare and strip all of your doctrine away, counting
only on Jesus and His words and not what you were
taught to think He said. If you can do this, God will
surely bless you in the study that these questions
should provoke. But even if you decide to pour over
the Bible, searching out every instance of the phrase,
"Kingdom of God", I believe that you will find the
truth for yourself, with God's help, if you are not
stubborn and are open to it. So may God bless you!
Matthew 6: 31-33
31) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall
we eat? Or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal
shall we be clothed?
32) (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:)
for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need
of all these things.
33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his
righteousness; and all these things shall be added
unto you.
It is clear here, that Jesus is not talking about a physical
kingdom. How were they to seek what they could not
find, because it supposedly wouldn't appear for thousands
of years yet?
And it seems to me, that He was saying *not* to be
concerned about the physical, because God takes care
of that. But He never said a word about a future,
physical kingdom. He related what God would take
care of for us while we would normally be worried
about food and clothes, which is in this world now.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the
kingdom of God is come unto you." - Matthew 12:28
Was Jesus casting out demons by the physical kingdom
of God? If so, how? His power was Heavenly and Heaven
isn't physical and there was and is no physical kingdom of
God on Earth.
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter
into the kingdom of God." - Matthew 19:24
Now everyone knows that here, Christ is talking about
salvation. So why switch gears? I mean, why claim
that it is about the physical? Why would he say this,
when those who are here to see this supposed earthly
kingdom wouldn't have any trouble getting in at all?
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall
be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth
the fruits thereof." - Matthew 21:43
How can the "kingdom of God" be taken from those
who never had it to begin with, if it is physical and
we are still waiting for it?
"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God
is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." - Mark 1:15
Why would Jesus preach that "the time" was "fulfilled",
if it would not be, until thousands of years later?
And why would He claim that "the Kingdom of God"
was "at hand", if it wasn't, remembering that He said
that "the time" was fulfilled?
In fact, that was the very first thing we have both
John the Baptist and Jesus recorded as preaching...
Matthew 3:1-2
1) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching
in the wilderness of Judea,
2) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven
is at hand.
"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,
Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
- Matthew 4:17
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
when the kingdom of God should come, he answered
them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
observation:
21) Neither shall they say, 'Lo here!', or, 'Lo there!';
For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Here, the Pharisees, who believed in a physical coming
kingdom, in which the Messiah would sit on an earthly
throne, questioned Jesus as to when it would come.
Why did Jesus deny that the Kingdom of God would
be seen with the eye, if it is going to be seen with
the eye? Why would He say it is "within" us, if it
is "outside" of us? Why wouldn't He just say...
"It is coming and you will not be part of it, if you
don't repent.", considering that He preached that
very thing first (repent, because the kingdom is
at hand)? No, He denied it!
Now some will say that the Dispensational belief does not
deny the spiritual aspect, but also believes in the physical
aspect. If that is so, then why do they spend all of their
time talking about the physical aspect and telling me how
wrong I am and only start talking about the spiritual aspect,
after being shown that they are backed into a corner by
Jesus' words and still don't spend any time on it, but only
state the spiritual aspect of it, so that they won't seem
"wrong"?
And why can they not admit that Jesus did *not* say,
"But later, it will be physical."?
Rather, He clearly denied a physical, earthly kingdom here,
by stating clearly that it would NOT be seen with the eye
and that it could NOT be pointed at.
Why would He say those things, if it could be seen with
the eye and could be pointed at?
Surely, if it would later be physical, it could be seen with
the eye and could be pointed at. Only a lunatic would
deny that simple fact, amen? Yet Jesus said the opposite!
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
12 Jun 2007 12:03:18 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <....SNAFU...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:on9r639j85gvjb45eecph14pa2hlk17v3c@4ax.com...
Jeremiah 23:5
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a
righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute
judgment and justice in the earth.
--
Transliterated Greek text of 2 John 1:7 in which the present active
participle "ercomenon: is coming" is mistranslated in some Bibles as "is
come."
2Jo 1:7 oti polloi planoi exhlqon ei ton kosmon oi mh omologounte ihsoun
criston ercomenon en sarki outo estin o plano kai o anticristo
The literal translation is: "For many deceivers are entering into the world,
who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver
and an antichrist."
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels
with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Rev. 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on
the earth.
There are many who say that the Kingdom of God
is something that will be seen later, after this world
is destroyed and a new Earth is created. But I tend
to refer to what Jesus said, since our reading of
other texts should be based on His words and not
what we want to read into other writings from books
which are symbolic, such as Revelation, which may
be the most symbolic book in the Bible and yet,
is read by Dispensationalists, as if it is the most literal.
So I ask a few questions, based on Jesus' words and not
that of Dispensationalists, who I believe have become so
indoctrinated into their doctrines, that they filter the Bible
through their doctrine, instead of the other way around
and have come to believe that what they say is actually
found in the Bible. For example, they say that...
"The AntiChrist is found in Daniel", when in reality,
Daniel never uses that word. But say that to them
and they quote another passage that says, "little horn"
as proof that Daniel said "AntiChrist" and claim they
are synonymous. But where does THE BIBLE say that?
It doesn't. Their doctrine does and that is my point.
So let's see what Jesus said and let's ask some common
sense questions and see what we come up with. You
must answer these for yourself. But if you immediately
go into a mode in which you are trying to protect your
doctrine in your mind, then you have already admitted
that your doctrine is not found in His words. And if
these questions make you angry, then ask yourself
why asking questions about what Jesus said, makes
you angry. After all, I'm not preaching any doctrine
at all here. I am only asking questions. Now since
when is that something we should avoid?
And these questions are not meant to invite answers.
I ask them so that you may think within yourselves
what those answers are. I hope that you lay yourself
bare and strip all of your doctrine away, counting
only on Jesus and His words and not what you were
taught to think He said. If you can do this, God will
surely bless you in the study that these questions
should provoke. But even if you decide to pour over
the Bible, searching out every instance of the phrase,
"Kingdom of God", I believe that you will find the
truth for yourself, with God's help, if you are not
stubborn and are open to it. So may God bless you!
Matthew 6: 31-33
31) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall
we eat? Or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal
shall we be clothed?
32) (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:)
for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need
of all these things.
33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his
righteousness; and all these things shall be added
unto you.
It is clear here, that Jesus is not talking about a physical
kingdom. How were they to seek what they could not
find, because it supposedly wouldn't appear for thousands
of years yet?
And it seems to me, that He was saying *not* to be
concerned about the physical, because God takes care
of that. But He never said a word about a future,
physical kingdom. He related what God would take
care of for us while we would normally be worried
about food and clothes, which is in this world now.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the
kingdom of God is come unto you." - Matthew 12:28
Was Jesus casting out demons by the physical kingdom
of God? If so, how? His power was Heavenly and Heaven
isn't physical and there was and is no physical kingdom of
God on Earth.
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter
into the kingdom of God." - Matthew 19:24
Now everyone knows that here, Christ is talking about
salvation. So why switch gears? I mean, why claim
that it is about the physical? Why would he say this,
when those who are here to see this supposed earthly
kingdom wouldn't have any trouble getting in at all?
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall
be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth
the fruits thereof." - Matthew 21:43
How can the "kingdom of God" be taken from those
who never had it to begin with, if it is physical and
we are still waiting for it?
"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God
is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." - Mark 1:15
Why would Jesus preach that "the time" was "fulfilled",
if it would not be, until thousands of years later?
And why would He claim that "the Kingdom of God"
was "at hand", if it wasn't, remembering that He said
that "the time" was fulfilled?
In fact, that was the very first thing we have both
John the Baptist and Jesus recorded as preaching...
Matthew 3:1-2
1) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching
in the wilderness of Judea,
2) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven
is at hand.
"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,
Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
- Matthew 4:17
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
when the kingdom of God should come, he answered
them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
observation:
21) Neither shall they say, 'Lo here!', or, 'Lo there!';
For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Here, the Pharisees, who believed in a physical coming
kingdom, in which the Messiah would sit on an earthly
throne, questioned Jesus as to when it would come.
Why did Jesus deny that the Kingdom of God would
be seen with the eye, if it is going to be seen with
the eye? Why would He say it is "within" us, if it
is "outside" of us? Why wouldn't He just say...
"It is coming and you will not be part of it, if you
don't repent.", considering that He preached that
very thing first (repent, because the kingdom is
at hand)? No, He denied it!
Now some will say that the Dispensational belief does not
deny the spiritual aspect, but also believes in the physical
aspect. If that is so, then why do they spend all of their
time talking about the physical aspect and telling me how
wrong I am and only start talking about the spiritual aspect,
after being shown that they are backed into a corner by
Jesus' words and still don't spend any time on it, but only
state the spiritual aspect of it, so that they won't seem
"wrong"?
And why can they not admit that Jesus did *not* say,
"But later, it will be physical."?
Rather, He clearly denied a physical, earthly kingdom here,
by stating clearly that it would NOT be seen with the eye
and that it could NOT be pointed at.
Why would He say those things, if it could be seen with
the eye and could be pointed at?
Surely, if it would later be physical, it could be seen with
the eye and could be pointed at. Only a lunatic would
deny that simple fact, amen? Yet Jesus said the opposite!
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
|
|
|
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| User: "Bill" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
20 Jun 2007 08:35:45 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:48:48 -0400, Pastor Dave wrote:
There are many who say that the Kingdom of God is something that will be
seen later, after this world is destroyed and a new Earth is created.
But I tend to refer to what Jesus said, since our reading of other texts
should be based on His words and not what we want to read into other
writings from books which are symbolic, such as Revelation, which may be
the most symbolic book in the Bible and yet, is read by
Dispensationalists, as if it is the most literal.
So I ask a few questions, based on Jesus' words and not that of
Dispensationalists, who I believe have become so indoctrinated into
their doctrines, that they filter the Bible through their doctrine,
instead of the other way around and have come to believe that what they
say is actually found in the Bible. For example, they say that... "The
AntiChrist is found in Daniel", when in reality, Daniel never uses that
word. But say that to them and they quote another passage that says,
"little horn" as proof that Daniel said "AntiChrist" and claim they are
synonymous. But where does THE BIBLE say that? It doesn't. Their
doctrine does and that is my point.
So let's see what Jesus said and let's ask some common sense questions
and see what we come up with. You must answer these for yourself. But
if you immediately go into a mode in which you are trying to protect
your doctrine in your mind, then you have already admitted that your
doctrine is not found in His words. And if these questions make you
angry, then ask yourself why asking questions about what Jesus said,
makes you angry. After all, I'm not preaching any doctrine at all here.
I am only asking questions. Now since when is that something we should
avoid?
And these questions are not meant to invite answers. I ask them so that
you may think within yourselves what those answers are. I hope that you
lay yourself bare and strip all of your doctrine away, counting only on
Jesus and His words and not what you were taught to think He said. If
you can do this, God will surely bless you in the study that these
questions should provoke. But even if you decide to pour over the
Bible, searching out every instance of the phrase, "Kingdom of God", I
believe that you will find the truth for yourself, with God's help, if
you are not stubborn and are open to it. So may God bless you!
Matthew 6: 31-33
31) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? Or, What
shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32) (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly
Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all
these things shall be added unto you.
It is clear here, that Jesus is not talking about a physical kingdom.
How were they to seek what they could not find, because it supposedly
wouldn't appear for thousands of years yet?
And it seems to me, that He was saying *not* to be concerned about the
physical, because God takes care of that. But He never said a word
about a future, physical kingdom. He related what God would take care
of for us while we would normally be worried about food and clothes,
which is in this world now.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God
is come unto you." - Matthew 12:28
Was Jesus casting out demons by the physical kingdom of God? If so,
how? His power was Heavenly and Heaven isn't physical and there was and
is no physical kingdom of God on Earth.
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the
eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
- Matthew 19:24
Now everyone knows that here, Christ is talking about salvation. So why
switch gears? I mean, why claim that it is about the physical? Why
would he say this, when those who are here to see this supposed earthly
kingdom wouldn't have any trouble getting in at all?
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you,
and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." - Matthew
21:43
How can the "kingdom of God" be taken from those who never had it to
begin with, if it is physical and we are still waiting for it?
"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:
repent ye, and believe the gospel." - Mark 1:15
Why would Jesus preach that "the time" was "fulfilled", if it would not
be, until thousands of years later?
And why would He claim that "the Kingdom of God" was "at hand", if it
wasn't, remembering that He said that "the time" was fulfilled?
In fact, that was the very first thing we have both John the Baptist and
Jesus recorded as preaching...
Matthew 3:1-2
1) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of
Judea,
2) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the
kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matthew 4:17
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God
should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not
with observation:
21) Neither shall they say, 'Lo here!', or, 'Lo there!'; For behold, the
kingdom of God is within you.
Here, the Pharisees, who believed in a physical coming kingdom, in which
the Messiah would sit on an earthly throne, questioned Jesus as to when
it would come.
Why did Jesus deny that the Kingdom of God would be seen with the eye,
if it is going to be seen with the eye? Why would He say it is "within"
us, if it is "outside" of us? Why wouldn't He just say... "It is coming
and you will not be part of it, if you don't repent.", considering that
He preached that very thing first (repent, because the kingdom is at
hand)? No, He denied it!
Now some will say that the Dispensational belief does not deny the
spiritual aspect, but also believes in the physical aspect. If that is
so, then why do they spend all of their time talking about the physical
aspect and telling me how wrong I am and only start talking about the
spiritual aspect, after being shown that they are backed into a corner
by Jesus' words and still don't spend any time on it, but only state the
spiritual aspect of it, so that they won't seem "wrong"?
And why can they not admit that Jesus did *not* say, "But later, it will
be physical."?
Rather, He clearly denied a physical, earthly kingdom here, by stating
clearly that it would NOT be seen with the eye and that it could NOT be
pointed at.
Why would He say those things, if it could be seen with the eye and
could be pointed at?
Surely, if it would later be physical, it could be seen with the eye and
could be pointed at. Only a lunatic would deny that simple fact, amen?
Yet Jesus said the opposite!
Just some thoughts...
There is no exit or entrance from eternity. The elect are already
present with the Lord. We are already singing the Song of the Lamb.
Death is not a slumber, but an awakening into the real world. We already
have our resurrection bodies.
Everyone thinks that we are going somewhere, but we have already
arrived.
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ
to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
.
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| User: "Broderick Crawford" |
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| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
15 Jun 2007 01:43:10 PM |
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|
Pastor Dave wrote:
There are many who say that the Kingdom of God
is something that will be seen later, after this world
is destroyed and a new Earth is created. But I tend
to refer to what Jesus said, since our reading of
Snip
God is a king?
--
I'm glad scorpions don't fly.
bcrawford
.
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| User: "Zen.Arrow" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 03:08:13 AM |
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a 10 min video about what is coming...
and what has been are linked to it...
and more to come...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09qlnZtEvU8&feature=PlayList&p=D18486C3641BFB68&index=0
"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:on9r639j85gvjb45eecph14pa2hlk17v3c@4ax.com...
There are many who say that the Kingdom of God
is something that will be seen later, after this world
is destroyed and a new Earth is created. But I tend
to refer to what Jesus said, since our reading of
other texts should be based on His words and not
what we want to read into other writings from books
which are symbolic, such as Revelation, which may
be the most symbolic book in the Bible and yet,
is read by Dispensationalists, as if it is the most literal.
So I ask a few questions, based on Jesus' words and not
that of Dispensationalists, who I believe have become so
indoctrinated into their doctrines, that they filter the Bible
through their doctrine, instead of the other way around
and have come to believe that what they say is actually
found in the Bible. For example, they say that...
"The AntiChrist is found in Daniel", when in reality,
Daniel never uses that word. But say that to them
and they quote another passage that says, "little horn"
as proof that Daniel said "AntiChrist" and claim they
are synonymous. But where does THE BIBLE say that?
It doesn't. Their doctrine does and that is my point.
So let's see what Jesus said and let's ask some common
sense questions and see what we come up with. You
must answer these for yourself. But if you immediately
go into a mode in which you are trying to protect your
doctrine in your mind, then you have already admitted
that your doctrine is not found in His words. And if
these questions make you angry, then ask yourself
why asking questions about what Jesus said, makes
you angry. After all, I'm not preaching any doctrine
at all here. I am only asking questions. Now since
when is that something we should avoid?
And these questions are not meant to invite answers.
I ask them so that you may think within yourselves
what those answers are. I hope that you lay yourself
bare and strip all of your doctrine away, counting
only on Jesus and His words and not what you were
taught to think He said. If you can do this, God will
surely bless you in the study that these questions
should provoke. But even if you decide to pour over
the Bible, searching out every instance of the phrase,
"Kingdom of God", I believe that you will find the
truth for yourself, with God's help, if you are not
stubborn and are open to it. So may God bless you!
Matthew 6: 31-33
31) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall
we eat? Or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal
shall we be clothed?
32) (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:)
for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need
of all these things.
33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his
righteousness; and all these things shall be added
unto you.
It is clear here, that Jesus is not talking about a physical
kingdom. How were they to seek what they could not
find, because it supposedly wouldn't appear for thousands
of years yet?
And it seems to me, that He was saying *not* to be
concerned about the physical, because God takes care
of that. But He never said a word about a future,
physical kingdom. He related what God would take
care of for us while we would normally be worried
about food and clothes, which is in this world now.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the
kingdom of God is come unto you." - Matthew 12:28
Was Jesus casting out demons by the physical kingdom
of God? If so, how? His power was Heavenly and Heaven
isn't physical and there was and is no physical kingdom of
God on Earth.
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter
into the kingdom of God." - Matthew 19:24
Now everyone knows that here, Christ is talking about
salvation. So why switch gears? I mean, why claim
that it is about the physical? Why would he say this,
when those who are here to see this supposed earthly
kingdom wouldn't have any trouble getting in at all?
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall
be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth
the fruits thereof." - Matthew 21:43
How can the "kingdom of God" be taken from those
who never had it to begin with, if it is physical and
we are still waiting for it?
"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God
is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." - Mark 1:15
Why would Jesus preach that "the time" was "fulfilled",
if it would not be, until thousands of years later?
And why would He claim that "the Kingdom of God"
was "at hand", if it wasn't, remembering that He said
that "the time" was fulfilled?
In fact, that was the very first thing we have both
John the Baptist and Jesus recorded as preaching...
Matthew 3:1-2
1) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching
in the wilderness of Judea,
2) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven
is at hand.
"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,
Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
- Matthew 4:17
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
when the kingdom of God should come, he answered
them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
observation:
21) Neither shall they say, 'Lo here!', or, 'Lo there!';
For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Here, the Pharisees, who believed in a physical coming
kingdom, in which the Messiah would sit on an earthly
throne, questioned Jesus as to when it would come.
Why did Jesus deny that the Kingdom of God would
be seen with the eye, if it is going to be seen with
the eye? Why would He say it is "within" us, if it
is "outside" of us? Why wouldn't He just say...
"It is coming and you will not be part of it, if you
don't repent.", considering that He preached that
very thing first (repent, because the kingdom is
at hand)? No, He denied it!
Now some will say that the Dispensational belief does not
deny the spiritual aspect, but also believes in the physical
aspect. If that is so, then why do they spend all of their
time talking about the physical aspect and telling me how
wrong I am and only start talking about the spiritual aspect,
after being shown that they are backed into a corner by
Jesus' words and still don't spend any time on it, but only
state the spiritual aspect of it, so that they won't seem
"wrong"?
And why can they not admit that Jesus did *not* say,
"But later, it will be physical."?
Rather, He clearly denied a physical, earthly kingdom here,
by stating clearly that it would NOT be seen with the eye
and that it could NOT be pointed at.
Why would He say those things, if it could be seen with
the eye and could be pointed at?
Surely, if it would later be physical, it could be seen with
the eye and could be pointed at. Only a lunatic would
deny that simple fact, amen? Yet Jesus said the opposite!
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 06:24:07 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:08:13 +1000, "Zen.Arrow"
<zen.arrow@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
a 10 min video about what is coming...
and what has been are linked to it...
and more to come...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09qlnZtEvU8&feature=PlayList&p=D18486C3641BFB68&index=0
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:on9r639j85gvjb45eecph14pa2hlk17v3c@4ax.com...
There are many who say that the Kingdom of God
is something that will be seen later, after this world
is destroyed and a new Earth is created. But I tend
to refer to what Jesus said, since our reading of
other texts should be based on His words and not
what we want to read into other writings from books
which are symbolic, such as Revelation, which may
be the most symbolic book in the Bible and yet,
is read by Dispensationalists, as if it is the most literal.
So I ask a few questions, based on Jesus' words and not
that of Dispensationalists, who I believe have become so
indoctrinated into their doctrines, that they filter the Bible
through their doctrine, instead of the other way around
and have come to believe that what they say is actually
found in the Bible. For example, they say that...
"The AntiChrist is found in Daniel", when in reality,
Daniel never uses that word. But say that to them
and they quote another passage that says, "little horn"
as proof that Daniel said "AntiChrist" and claim they
are synonymous. But where does THE BIBLE say that?
It doesn't. Their doctrine does and that is my point.
So let's see what Jesus said and let's ask some common
sense questions and see what we come up with. You
must answer these for yourself. But if you immediately
go into a mode in which you are trying to protect your
doctrine in your mind, then you have already admitted
that your doctrine is not found in His words. And if
these questions make you angry, then ask yourself
why asking questions about what Jesus said, makes
you angry. After all, I'm not preaching any doctrine
at all here. I am only asking questions. Now since
when is that something we should avoid?
And these questions are not meant to invite answers.
I ask them so that you may think within yourselves
what those answers are. I hope that you lay yourself
bare and strip all of your doctrine away, counting
only on Jesus and His words and not what you were
taught to think He said. If you can do this, God will
surely bless you in the study that these questions
should provoke. But even if you decide to pour over
the Bible, searching out every instance of the phrase,
"Kingdom of God", I believe that you will find the
truth for yourself, with God's help, if you are not
stubborn and are open to it. So may God bless you!
Matthew 6: 31-33
31) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall
we eat? Or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal
shall we be clothed?
32) (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:)
for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need
of all these things.
33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his
righteousness; and all these things shall be added
unto you.
It is clear here, that Jesus is not talking about a physical
kingdom. How were they to seek what they could not
find, because it supposedly wouldn't appear for thousands
of years yet?
And it seems to me, that He was saying *not* to be
concerned about the physical, because God takes care
of that. But He never said a word about a future,
physical kingdom. He related what God would take
care of for us while we would normally be worried
about food and clothes, which is in this world now.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the
kingdom of God is come unto you." - Matthew 12:28
Was Jesus casting out demons by the physical kingdom
of God? If so, how? His power was Heavenly and Heaven
isn't physical and there was and is no physical kingdom of
God on Earth.
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter
into the kingdom of God." - Matthew 19:24
Now everyone knows that here, Christ is talking about
salvation. So why switch gears? I mean, why claim
that it is about the physical? Why would he say this,
when those who are here to see this supposed earthly
kingdom wouldn't have any trouble getting in at all?
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall
be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth
the fruits thereof." - Matthew 21:43
How can the "kingdom of God" be taken from those
who never had it to begin with, if it is physical and
we are still waiting for it?
"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God
is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." - Mark 1:15
Why would Jesus preach that "the time" was "fulfilled",
if it would not be, until thousands of years later?
And why would He claim that "the Kingdom of God"
was "at hand", if it wasn't, remembering that He said
that "the time" was fulfilled?
In fact, that was the very first thing we have both
John the Baptist and Jesus recorded as preaching...
Matthew 3:1-2
1) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching
in the wilderness of Judea,
2) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven
is at hand.
"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,
Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
- Matthew 4:17
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
when the kingdom of God should come, he answered
them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
observation:
21) Neither shall they say, 'Lo here!', or, 'Lo there!';
For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Here, the Pharisees, who believed in a physical coming
kingdom, in which the Messiah would sit on an earthly
throne, questioned Jesus as to when it would come.
Why did Jesus deny that the Kingdom of God would
be seen with the eye, if it is going to be seen with
the eye? Why would He say it is "within" us, if it
is "outside" of us? Why wouldn't He just say...
"It is coming and you will not be part of it, if you
don't repent.", considering that He preached that
very thing first (repent, because the kingdom is
at hand)? No, He denied it!
Now some will say that the Dispensational belief does not
deny the spiritual aspect, but also believes in the physical
aspect. If that is so, then why do they spend all of their
time talking about the physical aspect and telling me how
wrong I am and only start talking about the spiritual aspect,
after being shown that they are backed into a corner by
Jesus' words and still don't spend any time on it, but only
state the spiritual aspect of it, so that they won't seem
"wrong"?
And why can they not admit that Jesus did *not* say,
"But later, it will be physical."?
Rather, He clearly denied a physical, earthly kingdom here,
by stating clearly that it would NOT be seen with the eye
and that it could NOT be pointed at.
Why would He say those things, if it could be seen with
the eye and could be pointed at?
Surely, if it would later be physical, it could be seen with
the eye and could be pointed at. Only a lunatic would
deny that simple fact, amen? Yet Jesus said the opposite!
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 04:24:53 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <.....SNAFU.....@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:08:13 +1000, "Zen.Arrow"
<zen.arrow@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
a 10 min video about what is coming...
and what has been are linked to it...
and more to come...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09qlnZtEvU8&feature=PlayList&p=D18486C3641BF
B68&index=0
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
ROTFL!!!!!!!!
No, Satan.
Have I got a surprise for you!
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Diana" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 04:52:40 PM |
|
|
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover@email.com> wrote in message
news:0uici.3711$c06.527@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
"Pastor Dave" <.....SNAFU.....@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:08:13 +1000, "Zen.Arrow"
<zen.arrow@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
a 10 min video about what is coming...
and what has been are linked to it...
and more to come...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09qlnZtEvU8&feature=PlayList&p=D18486C3641BF
B68&index=0
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
ROTFL!!!!!!!!
No, Satan.
Have I got a surprise for you!
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read
"Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
Dave is wrong about it all has happened however you don't need to call him
Satan. That is not his name. Have some respect for that even though you
don't believe his way. I don't believe his way either and you are aware of
that but I still call him Dave.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 05:19:14 PM |
|
|
"Diana" <diana.is.saved.by.grace@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4671b8c8$0$28182$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover@email.com> wrote in message
news:0uici.3711$c06.527@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
"Pastor Dave" <.....SNAFU.....@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:08:13 +1000, "Zen.Arrow"
<zen.arrow@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
a 10 min video about what is coming...
and what has been are linked to it...
and more to come...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09qlnZtEvU8&feature=PlayList&p=D18486C3641B
F
B68&index=0
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
ROTFL!!!!!!!!
No, Satan.
Have I got a surprise for you!
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is
a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read
"Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God
as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
Dave is wrong about it all has happened however you don't need to call
him
Satan. That is not his name. Have some respect for that even though you
don't believe his way. I don't believe his way either and you are aware of
that but I still call him Dave.
Of course he's wrong and he knows he's wrong. I'm addressing the spirit, and
it is the spirit of Satan. He keeps spamming all his lies over and over
again after they have been repeatedly refuted, and presumes to refute the
truth by ignoring it. Even Judas wished to repent when he knew he was
condemned, but not Dave he loves his Satan.
You can call him whatever you would.
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Diana" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 06:25:56 PM |
|
|
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover@email.com> wrote in message
news:8njci.3719$c06.37@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
"Diana" <diana.is.saved.by.grace@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4671b8c8$0$28182$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover@email.com> wrote in message
news:0uici.3711$c06.527@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
"Pastor Dave" <.....SNAFU.....@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:08:13 +1000, "Zen.Arrow"
<zen.arrow@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
a 10 min video about what is coming...
and what has been are linked to it...
and more to come...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09qlnZtEvU8&feature=PlayList&p=D18486C3641B
F
B68&index=0
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
ROTFL!!!!!!!!
No, Satan.
Have I got a surprise for you!
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into
the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This
is
a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read
"Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims
NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God
as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
Dave is wrong about it all has happened however you don't need to call
him
Satan. That is not his name. Have some respect for that even though you
don't believe his way. I don't believe his way either and you are aware
of
that but I still call him Dave.
Of course he's wrong and he knows he's wrong. I'm addressing the spirit,
and
it is the spirit of Satan. He keeps spamming all his lies over and over
again after they have been repeatedly refuted, and presumes to refute the
truth by ignoring it. Even Judas wished to repent when he knew he was
condemned, but not Dave he loves his Satan.
You can call him whatever you would.
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read
"Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
I understand what you are saying about "spirit" and satan. Jesus said "get
the behind me satan"
Calling someone satan though instead of the way Jesus did it is what I
faulted. Jesus didn't call the person satan is what I was trying to convey.
Go about your own way. Thanks for explaining though. I do appreciate it.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 07:59:25 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:52:40 -0400, "Diana"
<diana.is.saved.by.grace@gmail.com> spoke thusly:
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate
tranlation read "Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh"
because coming is in the present active participle.
Dave is wrong about it all has happened
And yet, no one seems to be able to prove that.
In fact, all they do is twist the Bible, like Fred
did above, when he claimed that it says that
Jesus Christ "IS coming in the flesh", when it
really says, "has come" and John was battling
the Gnostic heresy that Christ had not actually
come in the flesh. Anyone can see that, by
reading it in context.
Furthermore, even if Fred was right, which he isn't,
all it would prove, is that it was future tense to
when it was said. That does not mean that we can
read a first century text in the twenty first century,
as if time froze until WE opened a Bible for the
first time, any more than if I say that my friend
"is coming over", that it means that someone can
find my letter 2,000 years later and claim that my
friend is coming over in their future. (:
And if you think about it Diana, that is exactly
how Christians read the Bible today. As if all
of the statements were made just the day before
*they* opened a Bible for the first time.
Now why is it that whenever the word "soon"
appears in the Bible, they claim that "it could
mean any amount of time", but when they
stand up in church and say that "Jesus is
coming soon", they mean soon as the word
is normally used?
Have you never questioned that blatant contradiction
by the church today?
And do you think that when the Apostles wrote
the New Testament and used the word "soon",
that they expected it to be taken as, "Oh, they
are saying it will happen thousands of years
from now!" ???
And what writer, who wished to convey the idea
that it could be any amount of time, even thousands
of years, would continually use the words "soon",
"quickly", "this generation", etc.?
It is clear that the Apostles taught a return of Christ
within their generation and it is clear that they got
that idea from Jesus. So we either believe the
Scriptures, or we say that they were wrong. And
if they were wrong, then we should just toss our
Bibles in the garbage.
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 10:56:11 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <.......SNAFU......@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:a3p373pg6spu4rnfvbco4n1ag6ld173p9g@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:52:40 -0400, "Diana"
<diana.is.saved.by.grace@gmail.com> spoke thusly:
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate
tranlation read "Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh"
because coming is in the present active participle.
Dave is wrong about it all has happened
And yet, no one seems to be able to prove that.
Satan, you're a liar.
The proof is your responsibility, Satan.
The proof is in the texts, the original Grek text that has the present
active participle showing 2 John 1:7 to say "For many deceivers are
entering into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the
flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." And the vulgate, the Bible of
all Christendom prior to the reformation, also had the present active
participle which says "is coming." The earliest Bible I found which
mistranslated the present participle
as though it were perfect tense are the 1582 Douay-Rheims New Testament and
the 1611 KJV.
You prove there were texts with the mistranslation before then.
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "®andy" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
15 Jun 2007 12:43:46 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:59:25 -0400,
in article <a3p373pg6spu4rnfvbco4n1ag6ld173p9g@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:52:40 -0400, "Diana"
<diana.is.saved.by.grace@gmail.com> spoke thusly:
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate
tranlation read "Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh"
because coming is in the present active participle.
Dave is wrong about it all has happened
And yet, no one seems to be able to prove that.
In fact, all they do is twist the Bible, like Fred
did above, when he claimed that it says that
Jesus Christ "IS coming in the flesh", when it
really says, "has come" and John was battling
the Gnostic heresy that Christ had not actually
come in the flesh. Anyone can see that, by
reading it in context.
Furthermore, even if Fred was right, which he isn't,
all it would prove, is that it was future tense to
when it was said. That does not mean that we can
read a first century text in the twenty first century,
as if time froze until WE opened a Bible for the
first time, any more than if I say that my friend
"is coming over", that it means that someone can
find my letter 2,000 years later and claim that my
friend is coming over in their future. (:
And if you think about it Diana, that is exactly
how Christians read the Bible today. As if all
of the statements were made just the day before
*they* opened a Bible for the first time.
Now why is it that whenever the word "soon"
appears in the Bible, they claim that "it could
mean any amount of time", but when they
stand up in church and say that "Jesus is
coming soon", they mean soon as the word
is normally used?
Have you never questioned that blatant contradiction
by the church today?
And do you think that when the Apostles wrote
the New Testament and used the word "soon",
that they expected it to be taken as, "Oh, they
are saying it will happen thousands of years
from now!" ???
And what writer, who wished to convey the idea
that it could be any amount of time, even thousands
of years, would continually use the words "soon",
"quickly", "this generation", etc.?
It is clear that the Apostles taught a return of Christ
within their generation and it is clear that they got
that idea from Jesus. So we either believe the
Scriptures, or we say that they were wrong. And
if they were wrong, then we should just toss our
Bibles in the garbage.
Isn't it amazing that when he sees a few words like "soon",
"quickly", "at hand", or "this generation", it must be taken
ONLY in the strictest, literal sense. But then, when you see
things like "no more sin", "no more sorrow", "no more death",
"heavens and earth", and almost every other prophetic phrase
and word the Bible uses, suddenly they have to be interpreted
"figuratively", so as not to interfere with Dave's strict
literal interpretation of "soon"?
QUICKLY = A.D. 70, PERIOD!
SOON = A.D. 70, PERIOD!
AT HAND = A.D. 70, PERIOD!
THIS GENERATION = People who lived until A.D. 70, PERIOD!
EARTH = "Land of Israel", PERIOD!
WORLD = "Land of Israel", PERIOD!
WHOLE EARTH = "Whole land of Israel", PERIOD!
FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH = Four corners of Israel, PERIOD!
GE = "land of Israel, PERIOD!
NO MORE DEATH = Figurative speech for death as usual
NO MORE SORROW = Figurative speech for sorrow as usual
NO MORE CRYING = Figurative speech for crying as usual
NO MORE PAIN = Figurative speech for pain as usual
NO ABOMINATION = Figurative speech for abominations as usual
NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH = Spiritual transition in the same old
heavens and earth
NO SUN OR MOON = Spiritual or governmental transition in the
same old heavens and earth with the same old sun and moon
ALL = ALL prophecy and ALL that was written, PERIOD...
(until someone mentions that the fulness of the Gentiles has
not yet come in, nor has every knee bowed to Christ, at which
time, "ALL" becomes "ALL" prophecy about the perousia, even
though the deliverer doesn't come out of Zion until the
fulness of the Gentiles "has come in" (Romans 11:25ff.).)
FULNESS OF THE GENTILES = "Glass" of fulness that would come
in no later than A.D. 70, which is being fed by an infinite
"pitcher" of fulness that will never finish coming in (Romans
11:25ff.).
LIKE MANNER = "Figuratively", as in Isaiah, not as they just
saw him go into heaven.
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye
gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from
you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen
him go into heaven.
--
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." - John 16:33
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.
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| User: "®andy" |
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| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
15 Jun 2007 12:48:51 PM |
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On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:59:25 -0400,
in article <a3p373pg6spu4rnfvbco4n1ag6ld173p9g@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:52:40 -0400, "Diana"
<diana.is.saved.by.grace@gmail.com> spoke thusly:
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate
tranlation read "Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh"
because coming is in the present active participle.
Dave is wrong about it all has happened
And yet, no one seems to be able to prove that.
In fact, all they do is twist the Bible, like Fred
did above, when he claimed that it says that
Jesus Christ "IS coming in the flesh", when it
really says, "has come" and John was battling
the Gnostic heresy that Christ had not actually
come in the flesh. Anyone can see that, by
reading it in context.
Furthermore, even if Fred was right, which he isn't,
all it would prove, is that it was future tense to
when it was said. That does not mean that we can
read a first century text in the twenty first century,
as if time froze until WE opened a Bible for the
first time, any more than if I say that my friend
"is coming over", that it means that someone can
find my letter 2,000 years later and claim that my
friend is coming over in their future. (:
Not quite, Dave. IF Fred is right, then Christ's return would
be in the "flesh", not invisible and spiritual. Since it is
indisputable Christ has not returned yet, in the flesh, we may
understand he has not yet returned, even though it has been
thousands of years.
--
He answered: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and
with all your soul and with all your strength and with all
your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbour as yourself.' - Luke
10:27
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.
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| User: "®andy" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 10:20:42 AM |
|
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On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:24:07 -0400,
in article <s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
That's a lie.
1) Heaven and earth were not destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3).
2) The saints did not rise from the graves during or after
A.D. 70 (1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; Php. 3:21).
3) Christ did not return in the manner they saw Him depart
(Acts 1:9ff.).
4) The fulness of the Gentiles did not come in (Romans
11:25ff.).
5) The deliverer did not come from Zion to save Israel in A.D.
70 (Romans 11:25ff. Ps. 14:7; Isa. 59:20)!
6) Christ's kingdom does not smash Rome in the groin, let
alone do it in A.D. 70 (Dan. 2)!
7) Rome was not yet even divided into two legs (Rome and
Constantinople), in A.D. 70 (Dan. 2).
8) Rome was not a ten kingdom confederation of iron mixed with
clay in A.D. 70 (Dan. 2).
9) Titus did not confirm the covenant with the Jews for a week
(Dan. 9:27).
10) Titus did not set himself up as God in the Temple (2
Thess. 2).
11) Christ did not cast Titus and Rome into the lake of fire
in A.D. 70 (Rev. 19).
12) Satan was not bound in A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
13) The saints did not reign with Christ for a thousand years,
in A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
14) The present heavens and earth did not flee in A.D. 70
(Rev. 20).
15) Christ did not mount the Great White throne of judgment in
A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
16) The unsaved dead of all ages were not judged and cast into
the lake of fire in A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
17) A new heavens and earth did not appear in A.D. 70 (Rev.
21-22).
18) Death, sorrow, crying, and abominations were not
eliminated in A.D. 70 (Rev. 21-22).
--
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No
one comes to the Father except through me". - John 14:6
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.
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| User: "L. T. David" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 04:34:22 PM |
|
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"®andy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g1n273d98cvtrcmcai6b4gt7glmgrt4ndi@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:24:07 -0400,
in article <s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
That's a lie.
The lie is that the verses taken out of context you quoted below are
prophecies, predictions. They are not. There will be no second coming, no
rapture. Stop deceiving and stop driving people nuts with your illusions.
You stupid religious obsessions are driving you crazy. Get an education.
1) Heaven and earth were not destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3).
2) The saints did not rise from the graves during or after
A.D. 70 (1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; Php. 3:21).
3) Christ did not return in the manner they saw Him depart
(Acts 1:9ff.).
4) The fulness of the Gentiles did not come in (Romans
11:25ff.).
5) The deliverer did not come from Zion to save Israel in A.D.
70 (Romans 11:25ff. Ps. 14:7; Isa. 59:20)!
6) Christ's kingdom does not smash Rome in the groin, let
alone do it in A.D. 70 (Dan. 2)!
7) Rome was not yet even divided into two legs (Rome and
Constantinople), in A.D. 70 (Dan. 2).
8) Rome was not a ten kingdom confederation of iron mixed with
clay in A.D. 70 (Dan. 2).
9) Titus did not confirm the covenant with the Jews for a week
(Dan. 9:27).
10) Titus did not set himself up as God in the Temple (2
Thess. 2).
11) Christ did not cast Titus and Rome into the lake of fire
in A.D. 70 (Rev. 19).
12) Satan was not bound in A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
13) The saints did not reign with Christ for a thousand years,
in A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
14) The present heavens and earth did not flee in A.D. 70
(Rev. 20).
15) Christ did not mount the Great White throne of judgment in
A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
16) The unsaved dead of all ages were not judged and cast into
the lake of fire in A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
17) A new heavens and earth did not appear in A.D. 70 (Rev.
21-22).
18) Death, sorrow, crying, and abominations were not
eliminated in A.D. 70 (Rev. 21-22).
--
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No
one comes to the Father except through me". - John 14:6
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 05:09:53 PM |
|
|
"L. T. David" <LTD.Caplan@newsnet.com> wrote in message
news:jvici.26170$AU1.28554@wagner.videotron.net...
"®andy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g1n273d98cvtrcmcai6b4gt7glmgrt4ndi@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:24:07 -0400,
in article <s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <.......SNAFU......@nowhere.com> wrote:
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
That's a lie.
The lie is that the verses taken out of context you quoted below are
prophecies, predictions. They are not. There will be no second coming, no
rapture. Stop deceiving and stop driving people nuts with your illusions.
You stupid religious obsessions are driving you crazy. Get an education.
When you see Dave peeing all over himself, look up.
His,
--
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
1) Heaven and earth were not destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3).
2) The saints did not rise from the graves during or after
A.D. 70 (1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; Php. 3:21).
3) Christ did not return in the manner they saw Him depart
(Acts 1:9ff.).
4) The fulness of the Gentiles did not come in (Romans
11:25ff.).
5) The deliverer did not come from Zion to save Israel in A.D.
70 (Romans 11:25ff. Ps. 14:7; Isa. 59:20)!
6) Christ's kingdom does not smash Rome in the groin, let
alone do it in A.D. 70 (Dan. 2)!
7) Rome was not yet even divided into two legs (Rome and
Constantinople), in A.D. 70 (Dan. 2).
8) Rome was not a ten kingdom confederation of iron mixed with
clay in A.D. 70 (Dan. 2).
9) Titus did not confirm the covenant with the Jews for a week
(Dan. 9:27).
10) Titus did not set himself up as God in the Temple (2
Thess. 2).
11) Christ did not cast Titus and Rome into the lake of fire
in A.D. 70 (Rev. 19).
12) Satan was not bound in A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
13) The saints did not reign with Christ for a thousand years,
in A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
14) The present heavens and earth did not flee in A.D. 70
(Rev. 20).
15) Christ did not mount the Great White throne of judgment in
A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
16) The unsaved dead of all ages were not judged and cast into
the lake of fire in A.D. 70 (Rev. 20).
17) A new heavens and earth did not appear in A.D. 70 (Rev.
21-22).
18) Death, sorrow, crying, and abominations were not
eliminated in A.D. 70 (Rev. 21-22).
--
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No
one comes to the Father except through me". - John 14:6
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.
|
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
14 Jun 2007 06:41:57 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:34:22 -0400, "L. T. David"
<LTD.Caplan@newsnet.com> spoke thusly:
"®andy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g1n273d98cvtrcmcai6b4gt7glmgrt4ndi@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:24:07 -0400,
in article <s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
That's a lie.
The lie is that the verses taken out of context
you quoted below are prophecies, predictions.
There are many prophecies that are recorded
in the Bible.
They are not.
Then what are they?
There will be no second coming
Will be? No. Was one? Yes. It already
took place, within the time frame that
Jesus stated.
no rapture.
I do not believe in the rapture doctrine.
Stop deceiving and stop driving people nuts
with your illusions.
It seems that you're the one who's going nuts.
You intentionally subscribed to Christian groups.
Therefore, your post is driven by hate, not love
and not a desire for peace and certainly not the
tolerance that people like claim only non-Christians
have.
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
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| User: "L. T. David" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
15 Jun 2007 11:35:51 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:qvj37350uv92g7dd9n3266c826ecj2hnp3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:34:22 -0400, "L. T. David"
<LTD.Caplan@newsnet.com> spoke thusly:
"®andy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g1n273d98cvtrcmcai6b4gt7glmgrt4ndi@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:24:07 -0400,
in article <s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
That's a lie.
The lie is that the verses taken out of context
you quoted below are prophecies, predictions.
There are many prophecies that are recorded
in the Bible.
They are not.
Then what are they?
They are expectations, messages of hope, pseudo-visions, a product of the
imagination, a creation of the Jewish mind.
There will be no second coming
Will be? No. Was one? Yes. It already
took place, within the time frame that
Jesus stated.
There WILL be no physical second coming on this planet.
no rapture.
I do not believe in the rapture doctrine.
A doctrine or a fictitiuous Fundi bait?
Stop deceiving and stop driving people nuts
with your illusions.
It seems that you're the one who's going nuts.
You intentionally subscribed to Christian groups.
Therefore, your post is driven by hate, not love
and not a desire for peace and certainly not the
tolerance that people like claim only non-Christians
have.
I suscribed to these newsgroups for the same reasons you did except that I'm
not pretentious and arrogant as much as you are. :-O
Go preach your 'Words of God' to your opponents. They love them.
Pastor Dave
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
15 Jun 2007 11:49:14 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:35:51 -0400, "L. T. David"
<LTD.Caplan@newsnet.com> spoke thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:qvj37350uv92g7dd9n3266c826ecj2hnp3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:34:22 -0400, "L. T. David"
<LTD.Caplan@newsnet.com> spoke thusly:
"®andy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g1n273d98cvtrcmcai6b4gt7glmgrt4ndi@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:24:07 -0400,
in article <s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
That's a lie.
The lie is that the verses taken out of context
you quoted below are prophecies, predictions.
There are many prophecies that are recorded
in the Bible.
They are not.
Then what are they?
They are expectations, messages of hope, pseudo-visions,
a product of the imagination, a creation of the Jewish mind.
That is a claim, not proof. And no, I don't need
to prove that they are anything more than that.
I'm not the one making the accusations.
There will be no second coming
Will be? No. Was one? Yes. It already
took place, within the time frame that
Jesus stated.
There WILL be no physical second coming on this planet.
As I said, I agree. There was however,
a second coming, in the first century,
which had nothing to do with seeing
Jesus physically, but then again, that's
not what He meant when He said it anyway.
no rapture.
I do not believe in the rapture doctrine.
A doctrine or a fictitiuous Fundi bait?
If your intent is to attack Christians,
then you only prove your intolerance,
while claiming that it is Christians
who are not tolerant, which we know
you claim.
Stop deceiving and stop driving people nuts
with your illusions.
It seems that you're the one who's going nuts.
You intentionally subscribed to Christian groups.
Therefore, your post is driven by hate, not love
and not a desire for peace and certainly not the
tolerance that people like claim only non-Christians
have.
I suscribed to these newsgroups for the same reasons
you did except
That's not true and we both know it.
that I'm not pretentious and arrogant as much as you are.
You come in here attacking the Christian faith
and yet, claim not to be arrogant?
Go preach your 'Words of God' to your opponents.
They love them.
You are the opponent of Christ. And you subscribed
to these groups, for the purpose of attacking us.
And furthermore, anyone who thinks that they can
somehow fool us into thinking that they are somehow
innocent after doing so, isn't all that bright, period.
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
|
|
|
| User: "L. T. David" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
15 Jun 2007 12:48:07 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ang57399ihuh02eekmi37f13nre05nc5no@4ax.com...
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:35:51 -0400, "L. T. David"
<LTD.Caplan@newsnet.com> spoke thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:qvj37350uv92g7dd9n3266c826ecj2hnp3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:34:22 -0400, "L. T. David"
<LTD.Caplan@newsnet.com> spoke thusly:
"®andy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g1n273d98cvtrcmcai6b4gt7glmgrt4ndi@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:24:07 -0400,
in article <s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au174l@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
"®andy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:
That's a lie.
The lie is that the verses taken out of context
you quoted below are prophecies, predictions.
There are many prophecies that are recorded
in the Bible.
They are not.
Then what are they?
They are expectations, messages of hope, pseudo-visions,
a product of the imagination, a creation of the Jewish mind.
That is a claim, not proof. And no, I don't need
to prove that they are anything more than that.
I'm not the one making the accusations.
You asked a question, I answered. It's an answer, an opinion, not an
accusation.
There will be no second coming
Will be? No. Was one? Yes. It already
took place, within the time frame that
Jesus stated.
There WILL be no physical second coming on this planet.
As I said, I agree. There was however,
a second coming, in the first century,
which had nothing to do with seeing
Jesus physically, but then again, that's
not what He meant when He said it anyway.
no rapture.
I do not believe in the rapture doctrine.
A doctrine or a fictitiuous Fundi bait?
If your intent is to attack Christians,
then you only prove your intolerance,
while claiming that it is Christians
who are not tolerant, which we know
you claim.
Do you attack Christians when you attack Christian doctrines?
Stop deceiving and stop driving people nuts
with your illusions.
It seems that you're the one who's going nuts.
You intentionally subscribed to Christian groups.
Therefore, your post is driven by hate, not love
and not a desire for peace and certainly not the
tolerance that people like claim only non-Christians
have.
I suscribed to these newsgroups for the same reasons
you did except
That's not true and we both know it.
You present yourself as a Protestant pastor on these newsgroups and I don't
give a damn whether you are or not.
that I'm not pretentious and arrogant as much as you are.
You come in here attacking the Christian faith
and yet, claim not to be arrogant?
I'm attacking false Christian doctrines and I do not believe in your claim
that the Bible is the 'Word of God'.
Go preach your 'Words of God' to your opponents.
They love them.
You are the opponent of Christ. And you subscribed
to these groups, for the purpose of attacking us.
Straw man fallacy.
And furthermore, anyone who thinks that they can
somehow fool us into thinking that they are somehow
innocent after doing so, isn't all that bright, period.
Sraw man argument.
--
Pastor Dave
.
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: Kingdom of God |
21 Jun 2007 07:26:45 AM |
|
|
On Jun 15, 11:48 am, "L. T. David" <LTD.Cap...@newsnet.com> wrote:
"Pastor Dave" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ang57399ihuh02eekmi37f13nre05nc5no@4ax.com...
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:35:51 -0400, "L. T. David"
<LTD.Cap...@newsnet.com> spoke thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:qvj37350uv92g7dd9n3266c826ecj2hnp3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:34:22 -0400, "L. T. David"
<LTD.Cap...@newsnet.com> spoke thusly:
"=AEandy" <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g1n273d98cvtrcmcai6b4gt7glmgrt4ndi@4ax.com...
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:24:07 -0400,
in article <s992731idbhckeeioe29hbadf357au1...@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
There is nothing "coming". It has all been fulfilled.
"=AEandy" <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
That's a lie.
The lie is that the verses taken out of context
you quoted below are prophecies, predictions.
There are many prophecies that are recorded
in the Bible.
They are not.
Then what are they?
They are expectations, messages of hope, pseudo-visions,
a product of the imagination, a creation of the Jewish mind.
That is a claim, not proof. And no, I don't need
to prove that they are anything more than that.
I'm not the one making the accusations.
You asked a question, I answered. It's an answer, an opinion, not an
accusation.
There will be no second coming
Will be? No. Was one? Yes. It already
took place, within the time frame that
Jesus stated.
There WILL be no physical second coming on this planet.
As I said, I agree. There was however,
a second coming, in the first century,
which had nothing to do with seeing
Jesus physically, but then again, that's
not what He meant when He said it anyway.
no rapture.
I do not believe in the rapture doctrine.
A doctrine or a fictitiuous Fundi bait?
If your intent is to attack Christians,
then you only prove your intolerance,
while claiming that it is Christians
who are not tolerant, which we know
you claim.
Do you attack Chri | | | | | | | | | |
