| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"RainLover" |
| Date: |
30 Dec 2004 09:10:01 PM |
| Object: |
Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer |
If it's true that life needed an intelligent designer because it's so
complex, that means the designer had to be even MORE COMPLEX than life
as we know it today.
So... Who created the creator?
If your answer is "The Creator didn't need a creator because He has
always existed", then doesn't that take way the need for an
intelligent designer for us?
If the most COMPLEX thing in the universe (God) didn't need one, then
why do any less-complex lifeforms?
James, Seattle
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| User: "GoDrex" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer |
08 Jan 2005 02:06:01 PM |
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"James" <arox@surfbest.net> wrote in message
news:crpb2m$1o5$1@news.chatlink.com...
RainLover <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:dfg9t0h4ipb1s90e6gg3bmuqoibftl68ph@4ax.com...
If it's true that life needed an intelligent designer because it's so
complex, that means the designer had to be even MORE COMPLEX than life
as we know it today.
So... Who created the creator?
If your answer is "The Creator didn't need a creator because He has
always existed", then doesn't that take way the need for an
intelligent designer for us?
If the most COMPLEX thing in the universe (God) didn't need one, then
why do any less-complex lifeforms?
James, Seattle
James,
Good question. Yes it is true that we have always seen that complex
machines
need a designer and maker. (such as the human body) . And that we have
always observed that life ALWAYS comes from life. But does that include
God?
According to the Bible, that is the only exception. The Bible tells us
that
God ALWAYS existed. Ps 90:2,
"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the
world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (NIV)
The concept of perpetual existence in the past, doesn't make much sense to
us, since in our experiences all things had a beginning. But it doesn't
mean
it can't happen either. I have read of some cosmologists talking about a
universe that always existed, in order to help explain things. So the
concept of 'always existing' does seem plausible to some.
Your main concern seems to be that if it applies to humans, it must apply
to
God. But that isn't always the case. God is so unique and special, that we
can never fully understand Him. Ro 11:33-36,
" 33. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34. For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
35. Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him
again?
36. For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the
glory forever. Amen." (NASB)
Sincerely, James
isn't this completely side-stepping the issue?
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer |
30 Dec 2004 09:53:00 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:10:01 -0800, RainLover
<SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> let us all know that:
If it's true that life needed an intelligent designer because it's so
complex, that means the designer had to be even MORE COMPLEX than life
as we know it today.
So... Who created the creator?
If your answer is "The Creator didn't need a creator because He has
always existed", then doesn't that take way the need for an
intelligent designer for us?
If the most COMPLEX thing in the universe (God) didn't need one, then
why do any less-complex lifeforms?
Because theists, especially xers, are hypocrites.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "No 33 Secretary" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer |
31 Dec 2004 02:12:32 PM |
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Don Kresch <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in
news:m3j9t0lu1i898ik9c3e65v8rg38mon0aid@4ax.com:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:10:01 -0800, RainLover
<SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> let us all know that:
If it's true that life needed an intelligent designer because it's so
complex, that means the designer had to be even MORE COMPLEX than life
as we know it today.
So... Who created the creator?
If your answer is "The Creator didn't need a creator because He has
always existed", then doesn't that take way the need for an
intelligent designer for us?
If the most COMPLEX thing in the universe (God) didn't need one, then
why do any less-complex lifeforms?
Because theists, especially xers, are hypocrites.
^^^^^^^^^^
ITYM "stupid." HTH. HAND.
--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer -- ILLOGICAL |
08 Jan 2005 03:55:10 PM |
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James wrote:
RainLover <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:dfg9t0h4ipb1s90e6gg3bmuqoibftl68ph@4ax.com...
If it's true that life needed an intelligent designer because it's so
complex, that means the designer had to be even MORE COMPLEX than life
as we know it today.
So... Who created the creator?
If your answer is "The Creator didn't need a creator because He has
always existed", then doesn't that take way the need for an
intelligent designer for us?
If the most COMPLEX thing in the universe (God) didn't need one, then
why do any less-complex lifeforms?
James, Seattle
James,
Good question. Yes it is true that we have always seen that complex machines
need a designer and maker. (such as the human body) . And that we have
always observed that life ALWAYS comes from life. But does that include God?
According to the Bible, that is the only exception. The Bible tells us that
God ALWAYS existed. Ps 90:2,
===>That is just one man's opinion, who knew nothing of science, astronomy,
biology, stellar evolution, biological evolution, etc.
So, he imagined some "maker" to credit for all this, without the logical ability
to realize that, following his line of reasoning, that "maker" would have to
have been
created by an even more intelligent "maker", etc.
Of course no one "makes" a snow flake, yet there are billions of them.
No one "makes" the rain, yet it falls.
No one "makes" earth quakes and tsunami, yet they happen.
To ascribe natural events to super natural beings testifies to much
creativity but very little knowledge or understanding of reality. -- L.
"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the
world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (NIV)
===>The only such "GOD" is NATURE, the eternal cosmic process itself.
If there were any super-intelligent beings, they would be products of that
process.
The concept of perpetual existence in the past, doesn't make much sense to
us, since in our experiences all things had a beginning. But it doesn't mean
it can't happen either. I have read of some cosmologists talking about a
universe that always existed, in order to help explain things. So the
concept of 'always existing' does seem plausible to some.
===>Of course it does. The COSMOS exists now, has always existed
and will always exist. It is all that is, or ever was or ever will be. An
eternal process of formation and transformation of all that exists.
It is such extra-cosmic super-natural entities as
the deities of religions that are simply fictional characters.
Your main concern seems to be that if it applies to humans, it must apply to
God. But that isn't always the case. God is so unique and special, that we
can never fully understand Him. Ro 11:33-36,
" 33. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
===>Oh, the depth of the poverty of the ignorance of that writer! -- L.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer -- ILLOGICAL |
09 Jan 2005 09:06:36 AM |
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On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:55:10 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
Good question. Yes it is true that we have always seen that complex machines
need a designer and maker. (such as the human body) . And that we have
always observed that life ALWAYS comes from life. But does that include God?
According to the Bible, that is the only exception. The Bible tells us that
God ALWAYS existed. Ps 90:2,
===>That is just one man's opinion, who knew nothing of science, astronomy,
biology, stellar evolution, biological evolution, etc.
Wow, what a weak argument. If you don't like what God revealed to a man, simply
call it an unlearned opinion.
That, btw, is what I think of your reasoning.
duke
*****
Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,'
will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he
who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
*****
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer -- ILLOGICAL |
09 Jan 2005 11:28:42 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:55:10 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
Good question. Yes it is true that we have always seen that complex machines
need a designer and maker. (such as the human body) . And that we have
always observed that life ALWAYS comes from life. But does that include God?
According to the Bible, that is the only exception. The Bible tells us that
God ALWAYS existed. Ps 90:2,
===>That is just one man's opinion, who knew nothing of science, astronomy,
biology, stellar evolution, biological evolution, etc.
Wow, what a weak argument. If you don't like what God revealed to a man, simply
call it an unlearned opinion.
===>In fact everything that has ever existed has existed always -- in some other
form. (See LAW OF CONSERVATION).
But no "God" has "revealed" anything to any man.
People are being brainwashed into believing there own "scriptures" were
"revealed" by their "God". Of course, they are astute enough to see that
the religious texts of other religions are works of men, having written down
their own ideas, opinions, speculations and fantasies.
In fact so is the BIBLE. -- L.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer -- ILLOGICAL |
09 Jan 2005 03:51:14 PM |
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:28:42 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
Good question. Yes it is true that we have always seen that complex machines
need a designer and maker. (such as the human body) . And that we have
always observed that life ALWAYS comes from life. But does that include God?
According to the Bible, that is the only exception. The Bible tells us that
God ALWAYS existed. Ps 90:2,
===>That is just one man's opinion, who knew nothing of science, astronomy,
biology, stellar evolution, biological evolution, etc.
Wow, what a weak argument. If you don't like what God revealed to a man, simply
call it an unlearned opinion.
===>In fact everything that has ever existed has existed always -- in some other
form. (See LAW OF CONSERVATION)
Nice law, since the big bang. That's the way God said it was to be.
But no "God" has "revealed" anything to any man.
Yeah, sure libby.
People are being brainwashed into believing there own "scriptures" were
"revealed" by their "God". Of course, they are astute enough to see that
the religious texts of other religions are works of men, having written down
their own ideas, opinions, speculations and fantasies.
In fact so is the BIBLE. -- L.
Well, like my favorite saying goes: You and I will both find out for sure one
moment after we take our breath on this earth. THEN, it's too late to say "oh,
oh". Remember, you're right, I wasted my life enjoying myself God's way, and if
I'm right................well, shame on you.
duke
*****
Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,'
will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he
who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
*****
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| User: "Bible Studies with Satan" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer -- ILLOGICAL |
09 Jan 2005 05:22:12 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:28:42 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
Good question. Yes it is true that we have always seen that complex
machines need a designer and maker. (such as the human body) . And that
we have always observed that life ALWAYS comes from life. But does that
include God? According to the Bible, that is the only exception. The
Bible tells us that God ALWAYS existed. Ps 90:2,
===>That is just one man's opinion, who knew nothing of science, astronomy,
biology, stellar evolution, biological evolution, etc.
Wow, what a weak argument. If you don't like what God revealed to a man,
simply call it an unlearned opinion.
===>In fact everything that has ever existed has existed always -- in some
other form. (See LAW OF CONSERVATION)
Nice law, since the big bang. That's the way God said it was to be.
But no "God" has "revealed" anything to any man.
Yeah, sure libby.
People are being brainwashed into believing there own "scriptures" were
"revealed" by their "God". Of course, they are astute enough to see that
the religious texts of other religions are works of men, having written down
their own ideas, opinions, speculations and fantasies.
In fact so is the BIBLE. -- L.
Well, like my favorite saying goes: You and I will both find out for sure one
moment after we take our breath on this earth. THEN, it's too late to say
"oh,
oh". Remember, you're right, I wasted my life enjoying myself God's way, and
if I'm right................well, shame on you.
You wasted your life in My church, Dukie!
duke
*****
Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,'
will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he
who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
*****
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer -- ILLOGICAL |
10 Jan 2005 09:55:54 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:28:42 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
Good question. Yes it is true that we have always seen that complex machines
need a designer and maker. (such as the human body) . And that we have
always observed that life ALWAYS comes from life. But does that include God?
According to the Bible, that is the only exception. The Bible tells us that
God ALWAYS existed. Ps 90:2,
===>That is just one man's opinion, who knew nothing of science, astronomy,
biology, stellar evolution, biological evolution, etc.
Wow, what a weak argument. If you don't like what God revealed to a man, simply
call it an unlearned opinion.
===>In fact everything that has ever existed has existed always -- in some other
form. (See LAW OF CONSERVATION)
Nice law, since the big bang.
===>So you think the substance of the universe did not exist before?
Was it created by a god masturbating it into existence, as described in
Egyptian creation stories? -- L.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer |
08 Jan 2005 07:25:22 PM |
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On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:44:55 -0800, "James" <arox@surfbest.net> said in
alt.atheism:
Good question. Yes it is true that we have always seen that complex machines
need a designer and maker. (such as the human body) . And that we have
always observed that life ALWAYS comes from life. But does that include God?
According to the Bible, that is the only exception.
But that would be the fallacy of special pleading, so you of course
have something better.
The concept of perpetual existence in the past, doesn't make much sense to
us, since in our experiences all things had a beginning. But it doesn't mean
it can't happen either. I have read of some cosmologists talking about a
universe that always existed, in order to help explain things. So the
concept of 'always existing' does seem plausible to some.
Oh, so you claim that the universe could have always existed.
Your main concern seems to be that if it applies to humans, it must apply to
God. But that isn't always the case. God is so unique and special, that we
can never fully understand Him.
But that would be fallacious (see above), so ...
Oops. I guess all you have *IS* logical fallacy.
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of
themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Life is complex = needed an intelligent designer |
31 Dec 2004 06:23:58 PM |
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On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:10:01 -0800, RainLover
<SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote:
If it's true that life needed an intelligent designer because it's so
complex, that means the designer had to be even MORE COMPLEX than life
as we know it today.
So... Who created the creator?
If your answer is "The Creator didn't need a creator because He has
always existed", then doesn't that take way the need for an
intelligent designer for us?
If the most COMPLEX thing in the universe (God) didn't need one, then
why do any less-complex lifeforms?
/cue 'Eternal Life(tm).'
James, Seattle
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
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