Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Pastor Dave"
Date:	13 Sep 2005 12:45:17 PM
Object:	Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?

Let's start here...
http://tinyurl.com/djbk7
And here...
http://www.deborahsmessianicministries.com/StatementofFaith.html
And the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America believes:
"The MJAA believes that the Bible, consisting of the
Tanach, or the Old Covenant Scriptures, and the B'rit
Chadasha, or the New Covenant Scriptures, is the
inspired and authoritative Word of God."
http://tinyurl.com/8nwhm
Also see...
"Messianics use the same scriptures as Protestants,
including the common translations, e.g., NIV and New
King James Version. Of course, it is much more common
to find a Messianic who has studied biblical Hebrew
than a Christian."
http://www.messianicworship.com/html/differences.html
Side Note: Messianic Jews on baptism
(sprinkling or immersion?)
"Messianics only baptize believers, not babies, and
only baptize by immersion, since the practice described
in the B'rit Chadasha is actually derived from a
mikvah, a Jewish ritual purification bath."
http://www.messianicworship.com/html/differences.html
Here is a comment, which obviously includes the letters
of the New Testament, which I agree, is really the
"Renewed", or, "Confirming" Testament (Daniel 9:27).
"We believe that the Bible is God's completed Word,
that it was inerrantly written by divinely inspired
men, that it is the supreme, infallible authority in
all matters of faith and conduct, and that it is true
in all that it affirms (Proverbs 30:5-6; Isaiah 40:7-8;
Jeremiah 31:31; Matthew 5:18; 2 Timothy 3:16;
2 Peter 1:21)."
http://wordofmessiah.org/vision_statement.htm
Contrary to Beth's claims, it is clear that Messianic
Jews consider the word of God to be...
1) Inspired by God Himself
2) Infallible (without error)
3) To consist of what we have today, which means
that they view all of Genesis to Revelation, to be
the Holy, Divinely inspired word of the living God!
People like Beth and Jude and P.T., want us to believe
otherwise. That the Bible CONTAINS God's word,
but also contains errors and additions by men, without
God's divine guidance and therefore, is NOT the "word
of God".
Of course, they claim that the "Holy Spirit guides them
to the truth". The hypocrisy is multiple.
1) This is a word play, based on John 16:13, which
is part of the very Bible that they claim cannot be
trusted.
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
he will guide you into all truth..." - John 16:13a
2) As I pointed out above, if the Bible cannot be
trusted, then how can they know whether or not
Jesus said that?
3) They all claim that the Holy Spirit teaches them,
yet we can find these people in disagreement with
the inspiration of various passages,
4) The fact is, if we cannot trust which passages
are from God and which are not, what they are
really doing, is setting themselves up as THE
authority and want us (no matter how many times
they claim otherwise) to take their word for it.
That is the only option, since they have no way
of proving which passages are inspired and which
are not.
5) The very Bible that they say they cannot trust,
they don't seem to have a problem quoting when
they think it supports their view on something,
trying to use the very same Scriptures they claim
are not God's word, to "correct" us, when we are
trying to correct them.
The fact is, their ideas are not found in Scripture,
but in their own minds and then they become the
ultimate hypocrites, when they claim that we can't
trust the writings of those who walked with Christ
and those who met Christ, but we can trust what
THEY tell us. Thus, they set THEMSELVES up
as the new Apostles, trying to REPLACE those
who actually were Apostles, claiming to give us
God's truth, while all the while, rejecting His truth.
They want the Bible to submit to THEIR will, rather
than SUBMIT their will to God, who communicated
to us through His word. They don't want to submit.
They want to be in control and they want to control
God and make Him just as perverted as them.
They want to claim that we can't trust the Bible
and yet, what they learned about Christ that
supposedly brought them to Him, they learned
from the very same Bible they reject as infallible.
They may claim that they didn't, but even if they
watched a TV program, or were in a church, or
heard about Christ from a friend, that source still
had to go back to the Bible. Thus, their claimed
(and that's ALL it is, is a claim) salvation, is
nothing more than a sham that seeks to make
them the god of their own lives.
The typical question they ask, is where in the Bible
does it say that accepting the Bible is required for
salvation?
This is a very poor question. What does it matter
whether it says it in the Bible or not, when you would
reject that passage if one existed, claiming that it
was an addition of men? That is a dishonest and
hypocritical question, designed as nothing more
than a means with which to attempt to dodge the
truth of God's word, because it speaks volumes
about their kind and they don't like that.
I.e., Why would you ask someone to search a Bible,
that you claim contains errors?
The fact is however, that the Bible does teach it...
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17) That the man of God may be perfect,
thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
It is clear here, that it says, "ALL Scripture".
It is clear, that is is for "CORRECTION".
It is clear, that in order TO correct, it must
BE correct.
And yes, Paul's writings were and are Scripture.
2 Peter 3:14-16
14) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such
things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in
peace, without spot, and blameless.
15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord
is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also
according to the wisdom given unto him hath written
unto you;
16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of
these things; in which are some things hard to be
understood, which they that are unlearned and
unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures,
unto their own destruction.
Note that it doesn't say about Paul's writings,
"as they do also the Scriptures".
Rather, it says, "as they do also the OTHER Scriptures"
thus showing that yes, indeed, Paul's writings were and
are, "Scripture".
The Psalm says...
"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise
thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."
- Psalm 138:2
Jesus said...
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
And Jesus used Scripture, in response to Satan's
attacks on Him those 40 days.
Thus, Scripture is God's word and it is TRUTH.
And if it is truth, then it must be TRUE.
And if it is true, then it must be CORRECT.
And if it is correct, then it must be able TO correct.
And if it is able to correct, then it is able to
correct YOU.
And if it is able to correct you and you have said that
it is not God's word, then YOU MUST BE WRONG.
And if you are wrong, then that means that you haven't
believed the word of God.
And if you haven't believed the word of God, then you
are not saved.
And if you are not saved, then we shouldn't treat you
as if you are and you are part of the world, not part
of God's Kingdom.
And if you are not part of God's Kingdom and yet,
claim to be saved and bring this false doctrine,
then you are a HERETIC.
And if you are a heretic, then we shouldn't listen
to YOU.
And if we shouldn't listen to you, because you are
wrong, then you need to be CORRECTED.
And if you will not take that correction, then you
should be REJECTED.
Titus 3:10-11
10) A man that is a heretic after the first
and second admonition reject;
11) Knowing that he that is such is subverted,
and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
The real heartache here, is not that there are heretics
in the world. But rather, that the modern day, "feel
good" church, has got believers SO BRAINWASHED,
that they actually think that to respond in any way
that isn't a "lovey dovey, friendly, wishy washy feel
good, pat people on the back" way, is to be evil and
to respond in an evil manner.
The reality is, that there is one class of people that
the Bible says to be harsh with and that is a heretic,
after admonishing them twice. Paul gave Titus, a
pastor, who he sent btw, to correct heretical teachings
that were entering the churches, the following
instructions...
"These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all
authority. Let no man despise thee." - Titus 2:15
Love does not and cannot equal treating heretics
as if they're okay.
Would you bring a heretic into your church and tell
your pastor and fellow church members, "Hey, this
is Joe, a fellow Christian brother." ???
If not, then you know what you must do.
If yes, then you need to repent of that.
You people do what you want. But no one who rejects
God's word has been saved in my view and I believe
that view is Biblical. No one in the Bible was saved
by claiming that the Scriptures contained errors. Even
the book of Acts shows us this. Acts 17:10-12 shows
us that those who were preached to there in Berea,
were considered "more noble", because they searched
the Scriptures, to verify what Paul had told them.
They went to the one written source that is beyond
any questioning. The Scriptures.
We are told to come out from among the world,
in order to be accepted by God.
"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye
separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean
thing; and I will receive you." - 2 Corinthians 6:17
We cannot claim to be pure of the world, when our
"friends" are those of the world.
Now many will claim we are to "love" everyone and will
misuse John 13:35. But jesus was talking about His
disciples loving ONE ANOTHER in an INTIMATE
sense. There is more than one Greek word that is
translated into the English word, "love".
Our enemies, we are told to love (fron the Greek)
in a social, or moral sense. I.e., Do not be hateful,
but helping.
As for heretics, as I showed above, we are told
to reject them outright. Love cannot be the same
as accepting them as fellow Christians and defending
their heresies. Jesus Himself showed us that, by
showing us that He dealt with heretics (those who claim
to be of God and are not) in a completely different
manner...
"You are of your father the devil and the lusts of your
father you will do." - John 8:44a
These heretics and their unsaved supporters, misuse
the Scripture in John 13:35, just as they jump on me,
when I call an atheist a fool and I do that often,
after they repeatedly reject God's word. They use
the passage found in Matthew 5:22. Yet that passage
deals specifically with callings ones BROTHER a fool.
An atheist is NOT my brother and regarding atheists,
the Bible says...
"The fool has said in his heart; There is no God."
- Psalm 14:1
These heretics also teach that we are all God's
children, but we are not. If that is true (and they
do take their own word over God's), then why did
Jesus tell the heretics that their father is the Devil?
You see, their "feel good" philosophy contradicts
Jesus, while they claim to be loving Him.
Sum up what I have said here about them, with
the following passage and really think deeply on
all that it says about them...
"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness
in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a
liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave
of his Son." - 1 John 5:10
They do not, "believe on the Son", when they preach
heresy, claim that God's word is not pure and reject
true teaching and therefore, the rest DOES APPLY
TO THEM!
Anyone who allies with these people, are the enemies
of God and partakers of their sin. So make up your
mind what is more important to you. Friendship with
the world? Or a relationship with God.
"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the
friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever
therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of
God." - James 4:4
2 John 1:10-11
10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this
doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither
bid him Godspeed:
11) For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker
of his evil deeds.
Anyone who does not reject them, is the enemy
of God and a partaker of their sin and is in just
as bad of shape as they are. The Scripture is
clear on this.
--
Pastor Dave
Don't put a question mark where God put a period.
.

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	17 Nov 2006 04:50:03 PM

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gavdi1lpgm3nv9lbfp3b1tsqnod9fqvn2m@4ax.com...

Let's start here...

http://tinyurl.com/djbk7

And here...

http://www.deborahsmessianicministries.com/StatementofFaith.html

And the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America believes:

Not all Messianic Jews belong to this group, we come in as many variations
as do the rest of Christianity... You chose the most fundamentalist group of
Jewish Christians, and tried to fit us all into that pigeon-hole, we don't
all fit.
<snip>
.

User: "Sam Taylor"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	19 Nov 2006 05:35:50 PM

All jews are by nature of Judaism Messianic,or
looking for the return of Messiah.
some think He has already come in Various
incanations.
most look forword to messiahs return
a few are not even Jewish , but are disquised
as jews, but really are Xtian, and or other Pagan Religions.
.

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	21 Nov 2006 10:06:24 AM

"Sam Taylor" <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote in message
news:sbq1m2dhpni7nv2orevm2t4s5mp8drpik9@4ax.com...

So Paul, who called himself both a Jew, and a Christian was "really a
Christian diguising himself as a Jew" ? Sorry, I don't agree, I like Paul am
a Christian-Jew !
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	13 Sep 2005 02:26:02 PM

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gavdi1lpgm3nv9lbfp3b1tsqnod9fqvn2m@4ax.com...
[nsip]

And the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America believes:

"The MJAA believes that the Bible, consisting of the
Tanach, or the Old Covenant Scriptures, and the B'rit
Chadasha, or the New Covenant Scriptures, is the
inspired and authoritative Word of God."

[snip]
Thee are two potential problems with this thesis.
1) There are two groups that call themselves "Messianic Jews:" Jews who
believe in Jesus, and Jews who believe in a coming Messiah who is not Jesus.
2) Translations are not "The Word of God" per se, and do contain errors,
even the KJV. Run across them all the time.
Ike
--
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
.

User: ":::::::Glorious Heaven:::::::"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	14 Sep 2005 08:51:21 AM

--
You are mere animals living a mortal life
http://gourock.blogspot.com/
http://photogourock.blogspot.com/
http://www.carm.org/resources.htm
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/
For complaints about VERA:

office@ebf.org

http://www.ebf.org/ her pastor:

"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LuKdnaCyvJZSurreRVn-rg@comcast.com...

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gavdi1lpgm3nv9lbfp3b1tsqnod9fqvn2m@4ax.com...

[nsip]

[snip]

Thee are two potential problems with this thesis.

1) There are two groups that call themselves "Messianic Jews:" Jews who
believe in Jesus, and Jews who believe in a coming Messiah who is not
Jesus.

2) Translations are not "The Word of God" per se, and do contain errors,
even the KJV. Run across them all the time.

Ike

--

******************************

"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.

For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in
Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit

www.eickleberrybooks.com

******************************
Remove X from address to reply

Send your experiences and complaints about VERA to

and to

(her pastor)
It is free and it cost you nothing but you can make a world of difference
and create a wonderfull peace
Send all e-maill including letterhead!!!
.

User: "psalmsmith"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	18 Nov 2006 08:08:26 PM

In article <gavdi1lpgm3nv9lbfp3b1tsqnod9fqvn2m@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:

Contrary to Beth's claims, it is clear that Messianic
Jews consider the word of God to be...

1) Inspired by God Himself
2) Infallible (without error)
3) To consist of what we have today, which means
that they view all of Genesis to Revelation, to be
the Holy, Divinely inspired word of the living God!

Speaking as a Hebrew-Roots Believer (Messianic) I agree with this in
it's entirety.
.

User: "Mistylien"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	19 Nov 2006 01:59:24 AM

"psalmsmith" <psalmsmith@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
news:psalmsmith-07CDD9.21082618112006@news.giganews.com...

In article <gavdi1lpgm3nv9lbfp3b1tsqnod9fqvn2m@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:

Speaking as a Hebrew-Roots Believer (Messianic) I agree with this in
it's entirety.

Cool but do you ever get to places that will boggle your understanding
of what and when it is to take place.
I keep getting bits and pieces of insight of some of these and I have
studied into some others that I am willing to share with you all.
M,
.

User: "psalmsmith"
Title: Especially this bit right here	18 Nov 2006 08:10:22 PM

In article <gavdi1lpgm3nv9lbfp3b1tsqnod9fqvn2m@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:

Here is a comment, which obviously includes the letters
of the New Testament, which I agree, is really the
"Renewed", or, "Confirming" Testament (Daniel 9:27).

"We believe that the Bible is God's completed Word,
that it was inerrantly written by divinely inspired
men, that it is the supreme, infallible authority in
all matters of faith and conduct, and that it is true
in all that it affirms (Proverbs 30:5-6; Isaiah 40:7-8;
Jeremiah 31:31; Matthew 5:18; 2 Timothy 3:16;
2 Peter 1:21)."

B'rit Chadasha. or renewed covenant; based on how it is described in the
Ketuvim (prophets). RENEWED covenant, not new covenant. Big
difference. 8-)
.

User: "Bill M"
Title: Re: Especially this bit right here	19 Nov 2006 10:24:38 AM

"psalmsmith" <psalmsmith@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
news:psalmsmith-FCDC74.21102218112006@news.giganews.com...

In article <gavdi1lpgm3nv9lbfp3b1tsqnod9fqvn2m@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:

Really???
The foundation of all Christian religions are the Bibles
The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand. There are NO ORIGINALS in
existence. Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals??? What are
available are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable
veracity. The books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the
invention of the printing press. Even the so called originals were
supposedly written by 56 or more different authors of unknown veracity. They
are biased by, and dependent on the writings and opinions of the clergy. And
the status and survival of the clergy is totally dependent on their follower's
belief in their Bible stories. There are 18 different English versions
alone.
There is NO - NADA _evidence the Bibles are the word of any Gods. They are
no more than the words of hundreds of errant religious leaders motivated to
impress and control their flock.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence as to their authenticity and
veracity. The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables,
contradictions, human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding,
misogyny, destruction, barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not
accurate history and certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an
insane and totally untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
NONE of the Bibles were written during Jesus' 'CLAIMED LIFE TIME'. Time and
distance was required to allow the creation of fictional stories and the
embellishment of history.
There is also the matter of the Biblical canon itself. After all, ancient
Israel and the early church knew of many more religious books than the ones
that now constitute the Bible. For example, there were over 50 gospels in
circulation at the time New Testaments were chosen by church leaders, yet
only four made it into the New Testament. Who decided which of the books
would become part of the Christian scriptures, and again, "Why?" Who
decided, "This book belongs... this book doesn't..."? What were their
reasons? What were their motives? How do we know if ANY of them were
authentic? In addition there is evidence that the Bibles were altered by
church leaders to support their personal motives and ambitions.
The fact is, there are no clear records available which document the
church's process of determining which books were acceptable and which books
were unacceptable and why. The general consensus of opinion among scholars
is that the decision was based on whether or not the book agreed with the
prevailing theological thought and motives at the time. In other words, the
only books accepted were the ones that agreed with the opinions, desires and
motives of the church leadership at the time
It is interesting to note that NONE of the Bibles were written during Jesus'
claimed life time. It seems time needed to pass to permit the creation of
tales and the embellishment of history.
According to Bart Ehrman, professor and Chair of the Dept. of Religious
Studies at the University of North Carolina, The Bible is not the error-free
word of any god. There are some 5,700 ancient Greek manuscripts that are the
basis of the modern versions of the New Testament, and scholars have
uncovered more thousands of differences in those texts.
The last 12 verses of the Gospel of Mark appear to have been added to the
text many years later -- and these are the only verses in that book that
mention Christ reappearing after his death.
Another critical passage is in 1 John, which explicitly sets out the Holy
Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). It is a cornerstone of
Christian theology, and this is the only place where it appears in any of
the Bibles -- and it appears to have been added to the text centuries later,
by an unknown scribe.
For a man who originally believed the Bible was the inspired Word of God,
Ehrman sought the true originals to shore up his faith. The problem: he
found there are NO original manuscripts of ANY of the Bibles - Old or New
Testaments!
If the history of the resurrection of Christ had not really happened, the
message . . . according to the authority of the apostle Paul, had to be
'null and void'. Ehrman slowly came to a horrifying realization: There was
no real historical record. It was, he felt, no more than myths and fables,
told by illiterate men and not set down in writing for decades that
followed.
There is no solid agreement even within the Christian community on the
interpretation of the Bibles. There are 18 English versions alone. There are
thousands of variations and opinions as to the meaning of various Biblical
statements.
If Jesus was God, why did he not leave behind an authentic record of his
rules and commands? Why are there NO Biblical documents written during his
'claimed' time on earth? The Old Testaments were written 'before his birth'.
The New Testaments were written '60 and more years after his death' by men
that could never have known Jesus personally. NONE were written during his
'claimed' life time. Studies by Tony Busby indicate the new testaments were
really not compiled until the third century by the church leadership at the
time.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence as to their authenticity and
veracity. The Bibles contain both historical and scientific errors. They
contain manifest absurdities, unfulfilled prophesies, immoralities,
indecencies, obscenities, atrocities, barbarities, myths, folklore and
legends. They are nothing more than hearsay, myths, contradictions and
implausible tales.
Here is just a small sampling of implausible Bible stories.
The Fallacy of Miracles
Is Jesus divine because of his miracles, particularly that he raised the
dead? If so, then why is he singled out as special when others have done the
same long before? Moses parted the sea, changed a stick into a serpent, and
changed water into blood. Must he not have been divine? We have seen Elisha
and Elijah do the same sort of miracles as Jesus. Elisha raised the dead,
resurrected himself, healed a leper, fed a hundred people with twenty barley
loaves and a few ears of corn, and healed a blind man (2 Kings 4:35; 13:21;
5:14; 4:44; 6:11), while Elijah made an inexhaustible bowl of flour and an
inexhaustible jar of oil, and also raised the dead (1 Kings 17:14, 22). Why
are they not equal to Jesus, if such miracles denote divinity? Indeed,
someone in the Jewish scriptures far surpasses Jesus in raising up dead
bodies-Ezekiel raised "a great, an immense army", and all in one go (Ezekiel
37:1-10). In fact, the miracle of stopping the sun in its daily rotation
(Joshua 10:12-13) was a vastly greater miracle than just raising the dead.
The story of creation
A totally illogical Biblical story is the story of creation. It is obviously
pure fiction.
Genesis says that God created first the earth, then the Sun and Moon.
We know from astronomical data that our Sun and Moon is much older than the
earth. And all of these are older by eons than man. Only uneducated
egocentric humans could have written such nonsense.
Biblically, God created the world about six thousand years ago. 'Scientific
Evidence' indicates the Universe, as we now know it, began more than 13
BILLION years ago or more.
In the Bible, the Universe is a firmament and the Earth is a fixed (not to
mention flat) Planet and the Son, Moon and other planets revolve around the
earth. This was believed until modern scientific inquiry showed this was
totally false. We now KNOW the Earth revolves around the Son and the
Universe is over 20 BILLION light years in diameter and is made up of
trillions of Stars and Planets of which our planetary system is a very
miniscule and inconsequential part. There was no concept of a 'Universe' in
Biblical times.
Everything beyond our immediate Son and planets was considered Heaven.
In the Bible the earth is created in the first day, before the Son, Moon and
Stars. Objective scientific evidence is that the Earth did not form until
approximately 10 BILLION YEARS after the beginning of the present Universe
and after the formation of the Son, and many other stars.
The Creation of the World
Genesis
In the beginning of creation, when God made heaven and earth, the earth was
without form and void, with darkness over the face of the abyss, and a
mighty wind that swept over the surface of the waters. God said, Let there
be light, and there was light; and God saw that the light was good, and he
separated light from darkness. He called the light day, and the darkness
night. So evening came, and morning came, the first day. God created light
before he created the Sun and the Moon!
Astronomical evidence shows the Son existed long before the Earth; therefore
the earth was not created before the Son. It is equally obvious that the
writers of that time thought the World was the center the firmament and that
they had no conception of the size and nature of the Universe. Everything
beyond the Sun and Moon was considered to be gods Heaven
God said, Let there be a vault between the waters, to separate water from
water. So God made the vault, and separated the water under the vault from
the water above it, and so it was; and God called the vault heaven. Evening
came, and morning came, a second day.
God said; Let the waters under heaven be gathered into one place, so that
dry land may appear; and so it was. God called the dry land earth, and the
gathering of the waters he called seas; and God saw that it was good. Then
God said, Let the earth produce fresh growth, let there be on the earth
plants bearing seed, fruit-trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its kind. So it was; the earth yielded fresh growth, plants bearing seed
according to their kind and trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its king; and God saw that it was good. Evening came, and morning came, a
third day.
And this good and loving God created animals that eat other animals (and
man) and poisonous plants and snakes that kill!
God said, Let there be lights in the vault of heaven to separate day from
night, and let them serve as signs both for festivals and for seasons and
years. Let them also shine in the vault of heaven to give light on earth. So
it was; God made the two great lights, the greater to govern the day and the
lesser to govern the night; and with them he made the stars. God put these
lights in the vault of heaven to give light on earth, to govern day and
night, and to separate light from darkness; and God saw that it was good.
Evening came, and morning came, a fourth day.
Ancient man erroneously thought the stars beyond the Sun and Moon to be
Heaven. The Moon was NOT considered a reflection from the light of the Sun
but a lesser light.
God, said, Let the waters teem with countless living creatures, and let
birds fly above the earth across the vault of heaven. God then created the
great sea-monsters and all living creatures that move and swarm in the
waters, according to their kind, and every kind of bird; and God saw that it
was good. So he blessed them and said, be fruitful and increase, fill the
waters of the seas; and let the birds increase on land. Evening came, and
morning came, a fifth day.
And this all loving God created creatures of that kill and eat other
creatures including man.
Archaeological evidence shows that animals evolved from primitive cells over
a period of about four billion years - not in one day!
God said, let the earth bring forth living creatures, according to their
kind: cattle, reptiles, and wild animals, all according to their kind. So it
was; God made wild animals, cattle, and all reptiles, each according to its
kind; and he saw that it was good. Then God said, Let us make man it our
image and likeness to rule the fish in the sea , the birds of heaven, the
cattle, all wild animals on earth, and all reptiles that crawl upon the
earth. So God created man in his own image; in the image of God he created
him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, be
fruitful and increase, fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish in
the sea, the birds of heaven, and every living thing that moves upon the
earth. God also said, I give you all plants that bear seed everywhere on
earth, and every tree bearing fruit which yields seed: they shall be yours
for food. All green plants I give for food to the wild animals, to all the
birds of heaven, and to all reptiles on earth, every living creature. So it
was; and God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Evening came,
and morning came, a sixth day.
And God created animals that need to kill and eat other animals including
man in order to survive. This is a loving and caring God?
Thus heaven and earth were completed with all their mighty throng. On the
sixth day God completed all the work he had been doing, and on the seventh
day he ceased from all his work. God blessed the seventh day and made it
holy, because on that day he ceased from all the work he had set himself to
do and rested.
Why would a God that is not physical but spiritual, get tired and need rest?
If this creator is such a loving and caring guy, why does he permit totally
innocent children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a
fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.?
Why are some born idiots and others with super intelligence?
Why does this loving and caring god create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions that effect people indiscriminately regardless of
their conduct or religious beliefs? Why does he permit millions of both
young and old to starve to death?
These afflict humans indiscriminately - young and old, atheists and members
of all religious beliefs.
Why did he design humans to suffer the decrepitude and malignancies of old
age? Even those that devote their lives to religious leadership suffer these
punishments of old age.
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals that need to eat other
animals to survive?
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. The objective evidence is that, if there is a
god creator, he has no concern about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
Adam and Eve
In the Bible, there are two different accounts of Adam and Eve's creation.
According to the Priestly (P) history of the 5th or 6th century BC (Genesis
1:1-2:4), God on the sixth day of Creation created all the living creatures
and, "in his own image," man both "male and female." God then blessed the
couple, told them to be "fruitful and multiply," and gave them dominion over
all other living things.
According to the lengthier Yahwist (J) narrative of the 10th century BC
(Genesis 2:5-7, 2:15-4:1, 4:25), God, or Yahweh, created Adam at a time when
the earth was still void, forming him from the earth's dust and breathing
"into his nostrils the breath of life." God then gave Adam the primeval
Garden of Eden to tend but, on penalty of death, commanded him not to eat of
the fruit of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil." Subsequently, so that
Adam would not be alone, God created other animals but, finding these
insufficient, put Adam to sleep, took from him a rib, and created a new
companion, Eve. The two were persons of innocence until Eve yielded to the
temptations of the evil serpent and Adam joined her in eating the forbidden
fruit, whereupon they both recognized their nakedness and donned fig leaves
as garments. Immediately, God recognized their transgression and proclaimed
their punishments-for the woman, pain in childbirth and subordination to
man, and, for the man, relegation to an accursed ground with which he must
toil and sweat for his subsistence. Adam died at the age of 930!
In later Christian theology, the concept of original sin (q.v.) took hold-a
sin in which human kind has been held captive since the fall of Adam and
Eve. The doctrine was based on Pauline Scripture but has not been accepted
by a number of Christian sects and interpreters. Why should BILLIONS of
innocent people be punished over thousands of years for this original sin
that they had no part in?
This is both sadistic and ridiculous!
Jonah
As the story is related in the Book of Jonah, the prophet Jonah is called by
God to go to Nineveh (a great Assyrian city) and prophesy disaster because
of the city's wickedness. Jonah, in the story, feels about Nineveh as does
the author of the Book of Nahum-that the city must inevitably be destroyed
because of God's judgment against it. Thus Jonah does not want to prophesy,
because Nineveh might repent and thereby be saved. So he rushes down to
Joppa and takes passage in a ship that will carry him in the opposite
direction, thinking to escape God.
A storm of unprecedented severity strikes the ship, and it shows signs of
breaking up and foundering. Jonah confesses that it is his presence on board
that is causing the storm. At his request, he is thrown overboard, and the
storm subsides.
A "great fish," appointed by God, swallows Jonah, and he stays within the
fish's maw for three days and nights. He prays for deliverance and is
"vomited out" on dry land (ch. 2).
Totally implausible. He would have been digested by the fish in those three
days!
Sodom and Gomorrah
According to the Bible these cities and everyone in them, except Lot and his
family, were destroyed by fire and brimstone for their sinfulness. Lot's
wife was turned into a pillar of salt for disobeying God's command to not
look back at her city of birth being destroyed.
There is no way that EVERYONE in two cities could be so sinful, especially
innocent children, to deserve destruction by fire and brimstone.
Sodom and Gomorrah constituted, along with the cities of Admah, Zeboiim, and
Zoar (Bela), the five biblical "cities of the plain." Destroyed by"brimstone
and fire" because of their wickedness (Genesis 19:24).
Sodom and Gomorrah probably were devastated about 1900 BC by an earthquake
in the Dead Sea area of the Great Rift Valley, an extensive rift extending
from the Jordan River valley in Israel to the Zambezi River system in East
Africa. When the catastrophic destruction occurred, the petroleum and gases
existing in the area probably contributed to the imagery of "brimstone and
fire"
Cruel, inhumane and pure nonsense!
The Tower of Babel
Genesis 11.1 - 11.9
God became concerned that the Tower being built would reach his heaven.
He confounded the builders by giving them different languages so they could
no longer communicate with each other to continue the construction.
Why would this be of any concern to an all powerful God creator and wouldn't
this God creator realize that no tower could possibly reach his spiritual
heaven?
Noah and the Ark
The Bible is claimed to be the inerrant word of God
The story of Noah and the flood is only one of many ridiculous biblical
tales with no authentication or plausibility of any kind. It is an
impossible story.
1. The largest boat ever built to this day could not even come CLOSE to
housing Noah, his sons, wives and two of every type of animal on earth.
2. How were the 1.7 MILLION species collected in a boat and
cared for by a few people. How did he manage to get them all back to Asia,
Africa, Australia, North America, South America, the Arctic and Antarctic?
3. And this was a boat built of wood many thousands of years ago. There
are 1.7 million KNOWN species of animals on this planet. This story is
patently impossible, using only materials and tools available to Noah, to
build an arch large enough to hold all these creatures, together with
suitable environments for each of them to live in, keeping them all
separated so they don't kill and eat each other. And then provide room and
an environment for many hundreds of millions of known species of insects,
plants, molds etc. on this planet?
4. Where did they house all of the new born during this ten month
escapade?
5. In addition, the ship would have to carry a TEN MONTHS supply of food
and fresh water for the people and thousands of animals for them to survive.
What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone
extinct. How did they dispose of the thousands of tons of feces? It must
have been one stinking ship!
6. Now according to the Bible the earth was flooded for ten months. This
would kill off all the vegetation. What did the animals eat for an
additional year or more after the flood subsided?
7. Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove
returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out
again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive
the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't
germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11.
8. And according to this myth, Noah was also over 600 years old!
This is a grossly implausible tale that ranks as a greater tale than Santa
Claus, The Wizard of Oz, The Easter Bunny and The Tooth Fairy!
Genesis 6:6
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was
filled with pain.
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face
of the earth: men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and
birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."
9 Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he
walked with God.
Genesis 7
1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family,
because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven
[a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every
kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind
of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the
earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days
and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living
creature I have made."
6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7
And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of
birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female,
came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after
the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.
This is patently ridiculous and impossible. How could they capture and load
over three million animals in a period of seven days???
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the
second month-on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and
the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth
forty days and forty nights.
13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with
his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with
them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to
their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its
kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs
of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and
entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every
living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.
17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters
increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and
increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the
water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under
the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the
mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [, 21 Every living thing that
moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the
creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry
land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing
on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures
that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the
earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.
This of course would have also killed all the vegetation on Earth!
Genesis 7:6 (New International Version)
6 Noah was "six hundred" years old when the floodwaters came on the earth.
7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood
Genesis 8
1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that
were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters
receded.
3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and
fifty days the water had gone down,
4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on
the mountains of Ararat.
5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day
of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible
And what did they eat until all the vegetation recovered from the flood???
Genesis 9 God's Covenant with Noah
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and
increase in number and fill the earth.
2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and
all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground,
and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands.
3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you
the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand
an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an
accounting for the life of his fellow man.
Before man learned how to create a fire, he had no choice but to eat raw
meat!
Samson
Hebrew Shimshon, Israelite hero portrayed in an epic narrative in the Old
Testament (Judg. 13-16). He was a Nazirite (q.v.) and a legendary warrior
whose incredible exploits hint at the weight of Philistine pressure on
Israel during much of the early, tribal period of Israel in Canaan
(1200-1000).
Samson was claimed to possess extraordinary physical strength, and the moral
of his saga relates the disastrous loss of his power to the violation of his
Nazirite vow. Credited with remarkable exploits-e.g., the slaying of a lion
and moving the gates of Gaza-he first broke his religious promises by
feasting with a woman from the neighboring town of Timnah, who was also a
Philistine, one of Israel's mortal enemies. Other remarkable deeds follow;
e.g., his decimating the Philistines in a private war. On another occasion
he repulsed their assault on him at Gaza, where he had gone to visit a
harlot. He finally fell victim to his foes through love of Delilah, a woman
of the valley of Sorek, who beguiled him into revealing the secret of his
strength: his long Nazirite hair. As he slept, Delilah had his hair cut and
betrayed him. He was captured, blinded, and enslaved by the Philistines, but
in the end he was granted his revenge; through the return of his old
strength, he supposedly demolished the great Philistine temple of the god
Dagon, at Gaza, destroying his captors and himself (Judg.16:4-30).
A truly implausible tale!
God created a three level Universe - Heaven above, a flat World resting on
water. Genesis 1:6-10; 7:11; 8:2; 11:11-9; 19:24; 28:12-13; Exodus 20:4;
Numbers 16:30-33; Deuteronomy 33:17.
God created the Sun and the Moon on the fourth day but created light on the
first day! Genesis1:1-9; 14-19
It is claimed that the Eve, first woman, was created from one of Adam's
ribs.
Genesis 3:1-5 Men and women have the same number of ribs on each side of
their body? And in any case why would a god that has created the Universe
and everything in it need to tale rib from Adam to create Eve???
The Bibles claim that a talking snake talked Eve into eating the forbidden
fruit.
The Bibles claim that Adam lived 930 years, Seth 912 years, Enosh 905 years,
Kenan910 years, Mahalael 895 years, Jared 962 years, Methuselah 969 years;
Lamech 777 years, and Noah 950 years. Genesis 5:-31; 9:29
God commanded that every baby boy at age of eight days be circumcised.
At that time sterilization (of knives) was unknown and many died of
infection for which they new no cure. Why did this almighty and all caring
God create baby boys with foreskins on their penis that he then required to
be painfully and dangerously removed?
This all caring and loving God sent ten horrible plagues upon the Egyptians
Exodus 7:14-12:32 and in his loving generosity gave Israel the land of the
Canaanites and the Israelites slaughtered every person of seven nations.
Twenty one million, men women and innocent children, were slaughtered
according to the Bible. Exodus 12:1-2
This is a loving god???
According to the verse, Jesus was being tempted by Satan, for forty
days. Assuming that Jesus is God, we are required to believe that God
was tempted by Satan, who was created by God in the first place.
[NIV, Mark 1:12-13]
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all
the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give
you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to
him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your
God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10] If Jesus is God,
would the Devil promise him that he will give him the kingdoms of the
world when all the all kingdoms of the world were created by and already
belong to God??
======================================================
God in the Bibles classifies bats as birds when anyone with an elementary
knowledge of biology knows that bats are flying MAMMALS!
Letiviticus11:13, 19
This God can't control his temper resulting in killing thousands of people.
Numbers 11:31-35; 25:1-9
He and Moses ordered the Israelites to kill all the male and Female
Medianites who had ever had sex but to spare the young women who were
virgins and keep them for themselves to enjoy. Numbers 31:14-1
Jeremiah:16:1: The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying,
2: Thou shall not take thee a wife, neither shall thou have sons or
daughters in this place.
3: For thus saith the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters
that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them,
and concerning their fathers that begat them in this land;
4: They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither
shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth:
and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses
shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.
5: For thus saith the LORD, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go
to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people,
saith the LORD, even loving kindness and mercies.
======================================================
According to the unerring Bible, the earth is the oldest object in the
Universe. (Genesis 1:1), snakes can talk (Genesis 3:1-5), and Man had
dominion over the dinosaurs (Genesis 1:26, 28)."
Really??? The Earth did not come into existence until 10 BILLION years after
the Universe. Man came into existence MILLIONS of years AFTER the extinction
of the Dinosaurs.
======================================================
God is satisfied with his works
[Gen 1:31]
God is dissatisfied with his works.
[Gen 6:6]
God dwells in chosen temples
[2 Chron 7:12,16]
God dwells not in temples
[Acts 7:48]
======================================================
Jesus' claimed last words on the cross, 'My God, my God, why hast thou
forsaken me?' Hardly seems like the words of a god that created and
controlled the whole world and who planned his entry and exit on earth.
More obvious nonsense!
======================================================
Additional Bible nonsense too voluminous to quote fully;
Mt.4:8: Gen. 1:6; Deut. 30.4; Job. 9:6,22:13, 26:11; PSA 75.3, 103.12;
1 Sam 2.8; Isa. 13.5, 40.21-22; Dan 4.10-11; Re. 7.1, 20.8; Psa 93:1, 96:10,
105.5Job. 22.14; Rev. 6.14; Acts 10:11; Rev. 6:13, 8:14; Mat. 2:9; Gen 1:16;
Lev.19.27, 11.7,10-12: Mat. 5:17-19; Luke 16:17; Lev. 19.19; Luke 16:1-9;
Amos 3:6; Isa. 45:7; Lev, 18.22, 20.13; Deut. 13.6; Judges 14.20; 1 Sam
16:21-23, 18.1-3; Sam 1:26, 13:3, 15:37, 16:16-17: Mat. 2:13-15; Luke 2:1-7,
21; Gen. 11.6, 18:21, 27:33; Exod. 9:14, 12:12; Num 33.4; Deut. 3.23; Exod.
18:11; Eccl. 9.5-6, 9:10; Job 7.9-10, 13:28, 14:1-2, 14:1-2, 10-12, 21; Prov
2:18-19; Eccl. 10:17, 17:27, 28, 30, 19.3, 44:9; wisdom 2:1-5
This is just a sampling of ridiculous Bible tales. The Bibles are obviously
a mixture of fiction, fables, folklore and pure nonsense.
And these Bibles were dictated by God??? Then this God must be a demented
idiot.
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.

User: "psalmsmith"
Title: Re: Especially this bit right here	19 Nov 2006 01:13:03 PM

In article <cz%7h.3337$Q7.1503@bignews6.bellsouth.net>,
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:

The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand.

No, what is 'quicksand' is the idea of making a foundation on our
personal whims and opinions. We came from dust, and to dust we will
return. In the blink of an eye, on the scale of history, we are here,
and we are gone. When we base truth only on personal
conceptualizations, we are already sunk.

There are NO ORIGINALS in
existence.

We do have first generation copies of the Renewed Covenant; unicals
dating from the first century are no longer uncommon. Textural
criticism applied to scriptures show a far greater level of statistical
confidence than in any other historical writings in existence, whether
Plato, Josephus, the Talmudic writings, Homer, Beowulf, or Gilgamesh.
The unicals uncovered at Qumran also reveal an inordinately high
confidence level on our current texts of the Tanakh.

Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals???

Why would not any "real" God give everyone Ferraris? I mean, if He gave
everyone whatever they wanted, then there would no longer be any need
for faith, and so just ANY scum could come in. Instead, under the
current system, the husks are separated from the grain, just as any good
farmer wants, and only that which provides life will find it.

What are
available are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable
veracity.

The existence of mass alterations are a creation of your opinion, as is
the questionable integrity of those scribal efforts. By and large,
attempts to manipulate the text have not had a very long life span. The
evidence for this is that now any attempts to alter the message must be
made in whole other works, like the watchtower tracts and the book of
Mormon.
Textural criticism is a science, not a art, and when applied to the
integrity of scripture it reveals a confidence level in the text. Mean
deviations fall in the range of 0.25 to 0.3 percentile; and arise almost
entirely from a subset of texts that had been rejected in the first
place. This places a confidence level of +99% in our current scriptural
text; a far cry from their contemporaries rankings of 80% (Josephus) to
38% (Gilgamesh).
Opinion is all well and good, but science points to evidence rather than
speculation.

The books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the
invention of the printing press.

Which makes the +99% confidence level all that much more awe inspiring.

Even the so called originals were
supposedly written by 56 or more different authors of unknown veracity.

Again, your statement about the authors' integrity is nothing more than
opinion.

They
are biased by, and dependent on the writings and opinions of the clergy. And
the status and survival of the clergy is totally dependent on their
follower's

This is a circular argument. 1) People are biased to believe in the
text, so they believe. 2) The text was written in such a way because
they had to make people believe. 3) wash, rinse, repeat.

belief in their Bible stories. There are 18 different English versions
alone.

So then read them in the original Hebrew and Greek.
.

User: "Bill M"
Title: Re: Especially this bit right here	19 Nov 2006 03:12:04 PM

"psalmsmith" <psalmsmith@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
news:psalmsmith-73FA85.14130319112006@news.giganews.com...

In article <cz%7h.3337$Q7.1503@bignews6.bellsouth.net>,
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:

The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand.

There are NO ORIGINALS in
existence.

We do have first generation copies of the Renewed Covenant; unicals
dating from the first century are no longer uncommon.

Where is your objective verifieble evidence for these claims???
Textural

criticism applied to scriptures show a far greater level of statistical
confidence than in any other historical writings in existence, whether
Plato, Josephus, the Talmudic writings, Homer, Beowulf, or Gilgamesh.

And your evidence for this assertion is???

The unicals uncovered at Qumran also reveal an inordinately high
confidence level on our current texts of the Tanakh.

Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals???

And this is evidence???

What are
available are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable
veracity.

And 18 different Bible interpretations.

Textural criticism is a science, not a art, and when applied to the
integrity of scripture it reveals a confidence level in the text. Mean
deviations fall in the range of 0.25 to 0.3 percentile; and arise almost
entirely from a subset of texts that had been rejected in the first
place. This places a confidence level of +99% in our current scriptural
text; a far cry from their contemporaries rankings of 80% (Josephus) to
38% (Gilgamesh).

And your basis for this claim???

Opinion is all well and good, but science points to evidence rather than
speculation.

The books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the
invention of the printing press.

Which makes the +99% confidence level all that much more awe inspiring.

That 99% is pure opinion unsubstaniated by objective verifiable 'evidence'!

Even the so called originals were
supposedly written by 56 or more different authors of unknown veracity.

Again, your statement about the authors' integrity is nothing more than
opinion.

And where is there objective verifiable evidence as to their veracity???

They
are biased by, and dependent on the writings and opinions of the clergy.
And
the status and survival of the clergy is totally dependent on their
follower's

This is a circular argument. 1) People are biased to believe in the
text, so they believe. 2) The text was written in such a way because
they had to make people believe. 3) wash, rinse, repeat.

No, people were biased to write of relious beoliefs that supported their
power
and welfare!

belief in their Bible stories. There are 18 different English versions
alone.

So then read them in the original Hebrew and Greek.

There are NO originals!
.

User: "psalmsmith"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	18 Nov 2006 08:15:07 PM

In article <gavdi1lpgm3nv9lbfp3b1tsqnod9fqvn2m@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:

The typical question they ask, is where in the Bible
does it say that accepting the Bible is required for
salvation?

Well, you DON'T have to accept the Bible to be saved, actually. You
only have to accept Messiah. How many thousands accepted and followed
Messiah in ages past without having ever even seen one jot of scripture?
One would assume that once you have been given to Messiah heart mind and
soul, that He would enjoin the Ruach haKadosh (Holy Spirit) to lead you
into the truth of Scripture, but that might not necessarily happen -
however, adamant disagreement with scripture is generally indicative
that there was never an event of salvation in the first place; as one
who dwells in truth, cannot impugn the truth in which they dwell.
.

User: "Mark T moi@765444789876438767478738597878534"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	18 Nov 2006 09:14:07 PM

"psalmsmith" wrote:

Well, you DON'T have to accept the Bible to be saved, actually. You
only have to accept Messiah.

Not according to either the bible or the Christ!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all your
heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the FIRST and
GREATEST COMMANDMENT. And the SECOND is like it: 'Love your neighbor as
yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO COMMANDMENTS." -
Matthew 22:37-40
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing
that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the
COMMANDMENTS, which is the MOST IMPORTANT?" "The MOST IMPORTANT ONE,"
answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God (GOD NOT THE
MESSIAH) the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with
all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all
your strength.' (Mark12:28-30)
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying,
"Teacher, WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?"
He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" And he
answered, "You shall love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all
your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all
your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have
answered right; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE." (Luke 10:25-28)
These are repeated THREE TIMES. They are in each of the synoptic
gospels. These two greatest commandments do not mention anything about the
finite human Jesus of Nazareth, The Messiah ...or about being born again ...
or about Christians following any of the man made "fundamentals" ... or
about Christians having to believe in the bible ... or about Christians
having to be fundamentalist / orthodox ... or about belief in Jesus as God
.... or in belief about Jesus being resuscitated from the dead .. or beief in
Jesus flying through the sky to heaven ... or about attending church.
.

User: "gatekeeper"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	19 Nov 2006 02:34:28 AM

Mark T wrote:

"psalmsmith" wrote:

Well, you DON'T have to accept the Bible to be saved, actually. You
only have to accept Messiah.

Not according to either the bible or the Christ!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all your
heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the FIRST and
GREATEST COMMANDMENT. And the SECOND is like it: 'Love your neighbor as
yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO COMMANDMENTS." -
Matthew 22:37-40

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing
that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the
COMMANDMENTS, which is the MOST IMPORTANT?" "The MOST IMPORTANT ONE,"
answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God (GOD NOT THE
MESSIAH) the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with
all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all
your strength.' (Mark12:28-30)

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying,
"Teacher, WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?"
He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" And he
answered, "You shall love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all
your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all
your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have
answered right; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE." (Luke 10:25-28)

These are repeated THREE TIMES. They are in each of the synoptic
gospels. These two greatest commandments do not mention anything about the
finite human Jesus of Nazareth, The Messiah ...or about being born again ...
or about Christians following any of the man made "fundamentals" ... or
about Christians having to believe in the bible ... or about Christians
having to be fundamentalist / orthodox ... or about belief in Jesus as God
... or in belief about Jesus being resuscitated from the dead .. or beief in
Jesus flying through the sky to heaven ... or about attending church.

You are 100% correct in pointing out that these passages are not about
what we call and identify as Christian beliefs and practices today!
And for good reason, all three accounts are a summation of the Law! If
you look at the 10, or the 500, or the 1500, or however many laws you
would like to dig up, they all could be reduced or summarize to these
two! And having summarized them, Jesus said that if you could keep
them then you will live!
The only problem was that even these two, as enlightened as these were,
and held up as a high mark of Law keeping, was that they were still
subject to the weakness of the flesh, and no man could keep them! No
man that is, except Jesus, who kept them and nailed them to the Cross
when He Died for our Sin and sins! That was the end of the old way of
obeying the Law for righteousness, by which no man could live! That
was the start of a New Way, the Way of Life Eternal through Jesus
Christ, who has given us a New Commandment! Those old laws, whether 2,
10, 500,1500, have all been superceded, and done away with by the
Cross!
We have since that time, and because of the Cross had to learn a whole
new vocabulary as you point out, and accompaning beliefs and practices!
It would seem by your statement, that this is something that you never
figured out in your previous life as a fundy! This would explain a lot
about your misconceptions, and your bitterness toward those who
practice Christianity as they understand it! I would encourage you to
reconsider your decision to reject Jesus, that maybe you did not really
know Him as well as you thought you did!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.

User: "suneejan"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	19 Nov 2006 07:53:23 AM

Having Jesus in one's life is the most important thing there is.Then
one needs to meditate on his word which is the Holy Scriptures.
What do you mean by the eastgate is opened? Aren't there 12 gates in
heaven one for each tribe of Israel?
gatekeeper wrote:

Mark T wrote:

"psalmsmith" wrote:

Well, you DON'T have to accept the Bible to be saved, actually. You
only have to accept Messiah.

Not according to either the bible or the Christ!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all your
heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the FIRST and
GREATEST COMMANDMENT. And the SECOND is like it: 'Love your neighbor as
yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO COMMANDMENTS." -
Matthew 22:37-40

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing
that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the
COMMANDMENTS, which is the MOST IMPORTANT?" "The MOST IMPORTANT ONE,"
answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God (GOD NOT THE
MESSIAH) the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with
all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all
your strength.' (Mark12:28-30)

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying,
"Teacher, WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?"
He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" And he
answered, "You shall love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all
your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all
your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have
answered right; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE." (Luke 10:25-28)

These are repeated THREE TIMES. They are in each of the synoptic
gospels. These two greatest commandments do not mention anything about the
finite human Jesus of Nazareth, The Messiah ...or about being born again ...
or about Christians following any of the man made "fundamentals" ... or
about Christians having to believe in the bible ... or about Christians
having to be fundamentalist / orthodox ... or about belief in Jesus as God
... or in belief about Jesus being resuscitated from the dead .. or beief in
Jesus flying through the sky to heaven ... or about attending church.

You are 100% correct in pointing out that these passages are not about
what we call and identify as Christian beliefs and practices today!
And for good reason, all three accounts are a summation of the Law! If
you look at the 10, or the 500, or the 1500, or however many laws you
would like to dig up, they all could be reduced or summarize to these
two! And having summarized them, Jesus said that if you could keep
them then you will live!

The only problem was that even these two, as enlightened as these were,
and held up as a high mark of Law keeping, was that they were still
subject to the weakness of the flesh, and no man could keep them! No
man that is, except Jesus, who kept them and nailed them to the Cross
when He Died for our Sin and sins! That was the end of the old way of
obeying the Law for righteousness, by which no man could live! That
was the start of a New Way, the Way of Life Eternal through Jesus
Christ, who has given us a New Commandment! Those old laws, whether 2,
10, 500,1500, have all been superceded, and done away with by the
Cross!

We have since that time, and because of the Cross had to learn a whole
new vocabulary as you point out, and accompaning beliefs and practices!
It would seem by your statement, that this is something that you never
figured out in your previous life as a fundy! This would explain a lot
about your misconceptions, and your bitterness toward those who
practice Christianity as they understand it! I would encourage you to
reconsider your decision to reject Jesus, that maybe you did not really
know Him as well as you thought you did!

The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!

Gatekeeper

User: "Yabetz"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	19 Nov 2006 08:25:59 AM

"suneejan" <suneejan2@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163944403.338477.158960@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

You are thinking of the 'Dung Gate'. The Eastgate has been walled in since
810 AD. Harduck, I guess you will have to enter Heaven by the back door.
LOL.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.

User: "gatekeeper"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	20 Nov 2006 03:57:42 AM

suneejan wrote:

snip
Ezekiel prophesied that the Messiah, would return through the East
Gate! Later invaders thinking they could interfere with the return of
the Messiah, sealed the gate shut! However we believe that the Messiah
has already returned, and as a result, the Eastgate is now open!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.

User: "Jim"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	20 Nov 2006 11:18:57 AM

On 20 Nov 2006 01:57:42 -0800, "gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com>
wrote:

suneejan wrote:

The Word of God proves that you are believing a lie.
Luke 17:23-24 (NLT) "Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned
and that he is in this place or that. Don't believe such reports or go out to
look for him. {24} For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all
doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky.
.

User: "gatekeeper"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	20 Nov 2006 12:41:26 PM

Jim wrote:

On 20 Nov 2006 01:57:42 -0800, "gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com>
wrote:

suneejan wrote:

The Word of God proves that you are believing a lie.

Luke 17:23-24 (NLT) "Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned
and that he is in this place or that. Don't believe such reports or go out to
look for him. {24} For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all
doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky.

And what Luke recorded, occurred in 70AD as Christ prophesied, and we
realize now that He initiated His Millennial reign of Peace and Grace,
in the Kingdom, the Spiritual Kingdom within us which is obvious to all
who know Him! And He will reign until the last parousia when He will
take us to be with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom! For this reason, do not
go running around looking for Him, thinking that you will find Him, or
see the Kingdom, for as Matt 24 also points out, the Kingdom will not
be found and observed this way! So, those who look for an earthly
kingdom are misled, and make the same error as the Jews of Christ's day
when He ministered to them in the Flesh! But that hope of an earthly
Kingdom was never the plan of God, and never will be, and that earthly
dream was smashed with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in
70AD. This was also prophesied by Matthew and Luke!
Even so we look for the Blessed Hope and Appearing of Jesus Christ,
Until then, we celebrate that the Messiah has already come, and the
people rejected Him, and Crucified Him, and though He was rejected by
men, by God, He was resurrected, and He has been made the chief
Cornerstone of the Body of Christ of which we are a part of the Body,
His Church, His Residence now by the Holy Spirit, in whom we Live, and
move, and have our being! In as much as He has taken up Residence in
His Body, this signifies, that He has come, and the Eastgate is open!
So there is no lie in believing these things!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.

User: "Jim"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	20 Nov 2006 09:02:54 PM

On 20 Nov 2006 10:41:26 -0800, "gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Jim wrote:

On 20 Nov 2006 01:57:42 -0800, "gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com>
wrote:

suneejan wrote:

The Word of God proves that you are believing a lie.

Luke 17:23-24 (NLT) "Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned
and that he is in this place or that. Don't believe such reports or go out to
look for him. {24} For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all
doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky.

And what Luke recorded, occurred in 70AD

That's what a lot of theologians and seminaries teach - based on evidence of
nothing. But what I'm interested in is evidence. You got any?

as Christ prophesied, and we
realize now that He initiated His Millennial reign of Peace and Grace,
in the Kingdom, the Spiritual Kingdom within us which is obvious to all
who know Him! And He will reign until the last parousia when He will
take us to be with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom! For this reason, do not
go running around looking for Him, thinking that you will find Him, or
see the Kingdom, for as Matt 24 also points out, the Kingdom will not
be found and observed this way! So, those who look for an earthly
kingdom are misled, and make the same error as the Jews of Christ's day
when He ministered to them in the Flesh! But that hope of an earthly
Kingdom was never the plan of God, and never will be, and that earthly
dream was smashed with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in
70AD. This was also prophesied by Matthew and Luke!

Even so we look for the Blessed Hope and Appearing of Jesus Christ,
Until then, we celebrate that the Messiah has already come, and the
people rejected Him, and Crucified Him, and though He was rejected by
men, by God, He was resurrected, and He has been made the chief
Cornerstone of the Body of Christ of which we are a part of the Body,
His Church, His Residence now by the Holy Spirit, in whom we Live, and
move, and have our being!

In as much as He has taken up Residence in
His Body, this signifies, that He has come,

That occurred at Pentecost which was around 34-35 AD - well before 70 AD.
.

User: "gatekeeper"
Title: Re: Messianic Jews: What Are They? What Do They Believe?	21 Nov 2006 10:09:11 AM

Jim wrote:

On 20 Nov 2006 10:41:26 -0800, "gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Jim wrote:

On 20 Nov 2006 01:57:42 -0800, "gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com>
wrote:

suneejan wrote:

The Word of God proves that you are believing a lie.

Luke 17:23-24 (NLT) "Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned
and that he is in this place or that. Don't believe such reports or go out to
look for him. {24} For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all
doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky.

And what Luke recorded, occurred in 70AD

That's what a lot of theologians and seminaries teach - based on evidence of
nothing. But what I'm interested in is evidence. You got any?

I can not provide any evidence until you make the charges clear! What
is your complaint?