Oneness of God - Trinity Myths



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Mathom"
Date: 27 Feb 2005 11:53:52 AM
Object: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths
Many people mistakenly believe in a three-in-one God doctrine that, quite
frankly, they can't describe, define, or even imagine. This is an attempt
to dispel the myth of the Trinity, and give the only alternative that fully
harmonizes with the Bible. This view matches perfectly the oneness of God
with three wholly separate, distinct, and defined beings as the Bible
indicates.
Let's start with an illustration. Imagine standing at the foot of a high
mountain on a sunny day. Picture in your mind the cliffs reaching to the
sky. You can't see anything beyond this mountain front of you because of
your perspective. To you, it would appear as if there were just the ONE
mountain. Yet, behind this mountain is another mountain, more majestic and
beautiful, hidden from your view.
This mountain in front of you represents none other than the Creator of
Heaven and Earth, Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, the Savior of
Mankind, Alpha and Omega, the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the ONE God
we see.
The mountain hidden from our view is the Holy Father, the Father of our
Spirits, the God who gave all power and authority to Jesus to act in HIS
name from the very beginning. HE commanded to create a world, and Jesus
created. HE commanded a Savior to Redeem us, and Jesus obeyed. HE is
hidden from us because of our sins, so Jesus became the foremost to our
view. HE is the ONE God we worship.
These conclusions are derived strictly from the Bible. Let's first take a
look at Jesus' Intercessory Prayer (John 17). It is undeniable that Jesus
is praying to an external being (his Father), and indeed, it does seem
peculiar that he would be praying to a separate manifestation of himself.
Let's focus instead at a different matter. Read carefully vs. 11 and 22.
"And now I am no more in the world, but [my disciples] are in the world, and
I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name [my disciples] whom
thou hast given me, that they may be ONE, as WE are." (John 17:11)
"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given [those who believe my
disciples' words]; that [these believers] may be ONE, even as WE are ONE:"
(John 17:22)
The Trinity can be defined, at it's most basic level, as three different
manifestations of the same being. If the Trinity were true, then Jesus is
praying for His Disciples and Believers to become 'ONE being or entity',
even as Jesus and His Father are 'ONE being or entity'. This is obviously
impossible, and no amount of reasoning or rationalizing can make the Trinity
fit in these verses. We cannot make ourselves become one being or entity.
So, our only choice is to change our original assumption to determine how
God and Jesus are ONE.
If we were to look at the definition of ONE meaning one in purpose, one in
mind and heart, one in will, one in testimony, then these verses makes
sense. If Jesus and His Father are separate, distinct beings and are ONE in
purpose, heart, mind, and will, then we also CAN become ONE in the same way.
Jesus and The Father are shown separate in numerous scriptures, but none so
clear as after Jesus' resurrection. After appearing to Mary, he told her to
go "and say unto [my disciples], I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;
and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17). Our Father and Jesus' Father
are the same being, only we can't see or approach our Father as Jesus can.
Our God and Jesus' God are the same being, but only Jesus has all power and
authority given to him.
This was reiterated by Paul saying, "Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ." (Eph 1:3) Paul knew the relationship between the Lord
and God (Jesus' and our Father) and further clarifies this relationship in
Col 1:12-19.
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of
the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 [The Father] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son [Jesus]:
14 In [Jesus] we have redemption through [Jesus'] blood, even the
forgiveness of sins:
15 [Jesus] who is the image of the invisible God [the Father], [Jesus is]
the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are
in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers: all things were created by [Jesus], and for
[Jesus]:
17 And [Jesus] is before all things, and by [Jesus] all things consist.
18 And [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: [Jesus] is the
beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things [Jesus] might
have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in [Jesus] should all fulness dwell;
It was Jesus who was with the Father in the beginning and has all His power
and authority. (John 1:1-3,14) With that power Jesus created all things
under direction of the Father. (Eph. 3:9) Jesus truly was the great "I AM",
Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, and the Jesus Christ of the New. (Ex
3:14; John 8:58) He says, "there is no God else beside me; a just God and a
SAVIOUR; there is none beside me." (Isa 45:21)
Paul describes the Father as the "invisible God" (vs. 15). Jesus/Jehovah is
the 'image' we see. The Father is invisible to us because He is 'hiding'
behind Jesus for the reason of our sins. (Isa. 59:2) We cannot approach or
come to our Father by ourselves, only through Christ and His atonement.
(John 14:6)
Yet, we are commanded to worship and pray to our Father. (Matt 6:6) Since
we cannot pray to Him of ourselves, Jesus must advocate our prayers to the
Father for us. (1 Jn. 2:1) As such, we pray to our Father in Jesus' name,
two separate and distinct beings.
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ
Jesus;" (1 Tim. 2:5) The concept of mediation requires a "separation" of
the intervening mediator (Jesus) between the two parties (Man and Heavenly
Father). As two separate, distinct beings, Jesus is the only one with
access to the Father, and mediates for us. For how can one mediate (or
advocate) for oneself?
Further, at the time of Jesus' baptism, all three individuals appeared at
the same time. Jesus was there being baptized, the Holy Spirit appeared,
and the Father spoke. (Matt 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:22) It is Mark
and Luke's account that shows the separation and uniqueness of individuals
so distinct. The Father spoke directly to His Son and said, "Thou art my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." He wasn't speaking to a different
manifestation of Himself, but speaking as a Father speaks to a Son he was
proud of. The Spirit was also there as another witness (John 1:33)
So how, you may ask, does the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) fit into this
doctrine? The Holy Ghost is the light that shines on the mountain and shows
us the way to get there.
The mission of the Holy Ghost is to lead people to Jesus Christ, to testify
and bear record of him. Just as you cannot know the Father except through
Jesus, you cannot know Jesus except through the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:3) In
fact, I would be so bold as to say you do not yet know Jesus. You haven't
met him, you only know the Spirit. Therefore, "he who has 'seen' [the
Spirit] has 'seen' [Jesus]; and how sayest thou then, Shew us [Jesus]?" (ref
John 14:9)
The myth of the Trinity does not work for these obstacles the Bible
presents, and does not completely harmonize with all scriptures presented
within the Bible. Trinitarians can only quote scripture that shows their
position, but they cannot fully understand them, or even begin to explain
them. Then they choose to ignore those scriptures they don't agree with.
I will help them out by quoting a few of their favorite scriptures.
1) "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30) One what? Trinitarians insert
their interpretation to say "one entity with separate manifestations". But
in light of the scriptures quoted above, it more likely is "one in purpose,
heart, and mind." In fact, Jesus never uses the term "one entity" (or even
"one God") and, in fact, separates himself from his Father.
2) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7) Again, one what?
Same argument as above, except here it more likely represents "these three
are one 'record' (or witness)"
3) "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9) It has already been
stated that Jesus "is the image of the invisible God". (Col. 1:15) Jesus is
His Father's Son. They are so alike in attributes, desires, and purposes
that to know one is to know the other.
4) "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?" (John
14:10) Jesus says this only minutes before he prays for his disciples to be
ONE just like He and His Father are ONE. This is not evidence that they are
one in the same being. More likely that they have the same attributes, the
same desires, the same purposes. In life, a son can act a great deal like
his father. It could be said of him that 'he is his father's son,' so to
speak. How much closer is Christ like our Father?
5) "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Isa.
44:8) and "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside
me:" (Isa. 45:5) These scriptures are Old Law, having been superceded by
Christ's words, and the words of His apostles, in the New Testament. (2 Cor
3:14)
However, for an explanation of these oft quoted verses, when we take the
context of this entire section of Isaiah where these scriptures reside,
these verses can be clarified by, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the
ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." (Isa. 45:22)
Jesus/Jehovah is speaking through His prophet Isaiah. He reminds them of
His protection and blessings upon them. He tells them there is only ONE way
to salvation, only ONE God who can save them. He is not necessarily denying
the existence of other divine beings (His Father and the Holy Ghost), He is
only telling them, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh
unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) It is by our understanding in the
new law that we can help understand the old.
Only by viewing God as separate divine individuals can we begin to
understand His Gospel. ONE God in purpose, mind, and will. ONE God in
image, not entity. ONE God separated by spiritual progression, not
manifestation.
Each is a distinct individual with an separate and unique responsibility.
They are not some inconceivable, unimaginable triad. As we follow the
strait and narrow path and view the road ahead they APPEAR as ONE. The Holy
Ghost leads to Christ, and Christ brings us to the Father. Then the Father
blesses us with all he has.
I want to add my own personal witness and testimony to this. I know this to
be true, not just from study of the Bible, but from the Holy Ghost's witness
in my heart, and the answers I've received from my prayers. May we all
understand this progression and receive the blessings of the Father is my
prayer.
---------------------------------------------------------
The following are verses used but not quoted in the text
John 1-3, 14
1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Eph 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from
the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by
Jesus Christ:
John 8:57-58
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast
thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I am.
Ex 3:15
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say
unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Isa 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins
have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh
unto the Father, but by me.
Matt 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut
thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth
in secret shall reward thee openly.
1 John 2:1
1 MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if
any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the
righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also
for the sins of the whole world.
Mark 1:10-11
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened,
and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in
whom I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and
a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am
well pleased.
John 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said
unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on
him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
1 Cor 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of
God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord,
but by the Holy Ghost.
2 Cor 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail
untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in
Christ.
---------------------------------------------------
While I do not wish to appear a troll, I do not have the time necessary to
watch and reply to all responses, although I may answer a few. If you would
like to carry on a more personalized conversation, or for suggestions on how
I can improve the readability of this post, you may email me at:
mathom0.hotmail@com (switch the @ and the dot)
Mathom
.

User: "Jason Gastrich"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 27 Feb 2005 12:13:01 AM
Mathom,
Welcome to free.christians.
Before I take the time to answer this, are you going to be around to have a
dialogue? I'm not questioning your motives, but sometimes people who come
here and make single posts never post, again. I want to know if you'll be
around for a dialogue if I invest some time in responding to your post.
God bless,
Jason Gastrich
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 90,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free
indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ
has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140 . AIM: MrJasonGastrich . YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
.
User: "Mathom"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 28 Feb 2005 02:23:46 AM
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:NxdUd.15196$VD5.9783@twister.socal.rr.com...

Mathom,

Welcome to free.christians.

Before I take the time to answer this, are you going to be around to have

a

dialogue? I'm not questioning your motives, but sometimes people who come
here and make single posts never post, again. I want to know if you'll be
around for a dialogue if I invest some time in responding to your post.

I would like to be around to discuss this. I'm sorry I won't have the time
to answer every single post, but I will respond. And I would be interested
in hearing your thoughts.
My motives are simple, to share the true gospel of Jesus Christ as simply as
he did. =D


God bless,
Jason Gastrich
--

In Christ,
Mathom

--------

Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 90,000 web pages!

John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free
indeed."

Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ
has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."

ICQ#: 20731140 . AIM: MrJasonGastrich . YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason

.


User: "Saint Zombie"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 27 Feb 2005 12:47:36 AM
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:53:52 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:

Many people mistakenly believe in a three-in-one God doctrine that, quite
frankly, they can't describe, define, or even imagine. This is an attempt
to dispel the myth of the Trinity, and give the only alternative that fully
harmonizes with the Bible. This view matches perfectly the oneness of God
with three wholly separate, distinct, and defined beings as the Bible
indicates.



Let's start with an illustration. Imagine standing at the foot of a high
mountain on a sunny day. Picture in your mind the cliffs reaching to the
sky. You can't see anything beyond this mountain front of you because of
your perspective. To you, it would appear as if there were just the ONE
mountain. Yet, behind this mountain is another mountain, more majestic and
beautiful, hidden from your view.



This mountain in front of you represents none other than the Creator of
Heaven and Earth, Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, the Savior of
Mankind, Alpha and Omega, the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the ONE God
we see.



The mountain hidden from our view is the Holy Father, the Father of our
Spirits, the God who gave all power and authority to Jesus to act in HIS
name from the very beginning. HE commanded to create a world, and Jesus
created. HE commanded a Savior to Redeem us, and Jesus obeyed. HE is
hidden from us because of our sins, so Jesus became the foremost to our
view. HE is the ONE God we worship.



These conclusions are derived strictly from the Bible. Let's first take a
look at Jesus' Intercessory Prayer (John 17). It is undeniable that Jesus
is praying to an external being (his Father), and indeed, it does seem
peculiar that he would be praying to a separate manifestation of himself.
Let's focus instead at a different matter. Read carefully vs. 11 and 22.



"And now I am no more in the world, but [my disciples] are in the world, and
I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name [my disciples] whom
thou hast given me, that they may be ONE, as WE are." (John 17:11)



"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given [those who believe my
disciples' words]; that [these believers] may be ONE, even as WE are ONE:"
(John 17:22)



The Trinity can be defined, at it's most basic level, as three different
manifestations of the same being. If the Trinity were true, then Jesus is
praying for His Disciples and Believers to become 'ONE being or entity',
even as Jesus and His Father are 'ONE being or entity'. This is obviously
impossible, and no amount of reasoning or rationalizing can make the Trinity
fit in these verses. We cannot make ourselves become one being or entity.
So, our only choice is to change our original assumption to determine how
God and Jesus are ONE.



If we were to look at the definition of ONE meaning one in purpose, one in
mind and heart, one in will, one in testimony, then these verses makes
sense. If Jesus and His Father are separate, distinct beings and are ONE in
purpose, heart, mind, and will, then we also CAN become ONE in the same way.



Jesus and The Father are shown separate in numerous scriptures, but none so
clear as after Jesus' resurrection. After appearing to Mary, he told her to
go "and say unto [my disciples], I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;
and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17). Our Father and Jesus' Father
are the same being, only we can't see or approach our Father as Jesus can.
Our God and Jesus' God are the same being, but only Jesus has all power and
authority given to him.



This was reiterated by Paul saying, "Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ." (Eph 1:3) Paul knew the relationship between the Lord
and God (Jesus' and our Father) and further clarifies this relationship in
Col 1:12-19.



12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of
the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 [The Father] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son [Jesus]:

14 In [Jesus] we have redemption through [Jesus'] blood, even the
forgiveness of sins:

15 [Jesus] who is the image of the invisible God [the Father], [Jesus is]
the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are
in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers: all things were created by [Jesus], and for
[Jesus]:

17 And [Jesus] is before all things, and by [Jesus] all things consist.

18 And [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: [Jesus] is the
beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things [Jesus] might
have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in [Jesus] should all fulness dwell;



It was Jesus who was with the Father in the beginning and has all His power
and authority. (John 1:1-3,14) With that power Jesus created all things
under direction of the Father. (Eph. 3:9) Jesus truly was the great "I AM",
Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, and the Jesus Christ of the New. (Ex
3:14; John 8:58) He says, "there is no God else beside me; a just God and a
SAVIOUR; there is none beside me." (Isa 45:21)



Paul describes the Father as the "invisible God" (vs. 15). Jesus/Jehovah is
the 'image' we see. The Father is invisible to us because He is 'hiding'
behind Jesus for the reason of our sins. (Isa. 59:2) We cannot approach or
come to our Father by ourselves, only through Christ and His atonement.
(John 14:6)



Yet, we are commanded to worship and pray to our Father. (Matt 6:6) Since
we cannot pray to Him of ourselves, Jesus must advocate our prayers to the
Father for us. (1 Jn. 2:1) As such, we pray to our Father in Jesus' name,
two separate and distinct beings.



"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ
Jesus;" (1 Tim. 2:5) The concept of mediation requires a "separation" of
the intervening mediator (Jesus) between the two parties (Man and Heavenly
Father). As two separate, distinct beings, Jesus is the only one with
access to the Father, and mediates for us. For how can one mediate (or
advocate) for oneself?



Further, at the time of Jesus' baptism, all three individuals appeared at
the same time. Jesus was there being baptized, the Holy Spirit appeared,
and the Father spoke. (Matt 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:22) It is Mark
and Luke's account that shows the separation and uniqueness of individuals
so distinct. The Father spoke directly to His Son and said, "Thou art my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." He wasn't speaking to a different
manifestation of Himself, but speaking as a Father speaks to a Son he was
proud of. The Spirit was also there as another witness (John 1:33)



So how, you may ask, does the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) fit into this
doctrine? The Holy Ghost is the light that shines on the mountain and shows
us the way to get there.



The mission of the Holy Ghost is to lead people to Jesus Christ, to testify
and bear record of him. Just as you cannot know the Father except through
Jesus, you cannot know Jesus except through the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:3) In
fact, I would be so bold as to say you do not yet know Jesus. You haven't
met him, you only know the Spirit. Therefore, "he who has 'seen' [the
Spirit] has 'seen' [Jesus]; and how sayest thou then, Shew us [Jesus]?" (ref
John 14:9)



The myth of the Trinity does not work for these obstacles the Bible
presents, and does not completely harmonize with all scriptures presented
within the Bible. Trinitarians can only quote scripture that shows their
position, but they cannot fully understand them, or even begin to explain
them. Then they choose to ignore those scriptures they don't agree with.



I will help them out by quoting a few of their favorite scriptures.



1) "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30) One what? Trinitarians insert
their interpretation to say "one entity with separate manifestations". But
in light of the scriptures quoted above, it more likely is "one in purpose,
heart, and mind." In fact, Jesus never uses the term "one entity" (or even
"one God") and, in fact, separates himself from his Father.



2) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7) Again, one what?
Same argument as above, except here it more likely represents "these three
are one 'record' (or witness)"



3) "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9) It has already been
stated that Jesus "is the image of the invisible God". (Col. 1:15) Jesus is
His Father's Son. They are so alike in attributes, desires, and purposes
that to know one is to know the other.



4) "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?" (John
14:10) Jesus says this only minutes before he prays for his disciples to be
ONE just like He and His Father are ONE. This is not evidence that they are
one in the same being. More likely that they have the same attributes, the
same desires, the same purposes. In life, a son can act a great deal like
his father. It could be said of him that 'he is his father's son,' so to
speak. How much closer is Christ like our Father?



5) "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Isa.
44:8) and "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside
me:" (Isa. 45:5) These scriptures are Old Law, having been superceded by
Christ's words, and the words of His apostles, in the New Testament. (2 Cor
3:14)



However, for an explanation of these oft quoted verses, when we take the
context of this entire section of Isaiah where these scriptures reside,
these verses can be clarified by, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the
ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." (Isa. 45:22)
Jesus/Jehovah is speaking through His prophet Isaiah. He reminds them of
His protection and blessings upon them. He tells them there is only ONE way
to salvation, only ONE God who can save them. He is not necessarily denying
the existence of other divine beings (His Father and the Holy Ghost), He is
only telling them, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh
unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) It is by our understanding in the
new law that we can help understand the old.



Only by viewing God as separate divine individuals can we begin to
understand His Gospel. ONE God in purpose, mind, and will. ONE God in
image, not entity. ONE God separated by spiritual progression, not
manifestation.



Each is a distinct individual with an separate and unique responsibility.
They are not some inconceivable, unimaginable triad. As we follow the
strait and narrow path and view the road ahead they APPEAR as ONE. The Holy
Ghost leads to Christ, and Christ brings us to the Father. Then the Father
blesses us with all he has.



I want to add my own personal witness and testimony to this. I know this to
be true, not just from study of the Bible, but from the Holy Ghost's witness
in my heart, and the answers I've received from my prayers. May we all
understand this progression and receive the blessings of the Father is my
prayer.



---------------------------------------------------------

The following are verses used but not quoted in the text



John 1-3, 14

1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,



Eph 3:9

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from
the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by
Jesus Christ:



John 8:57-58

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast
thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I am.



Ex 3:15

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say
unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.



Isa 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins
have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh
unto the Father, but by me.



Matt 6:6

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut
thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth
in secret shall reward thee openly.



1 John 2:1

1 MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if
any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the
righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also
for the sins of the whole world.



Mark 1:10-11

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened,
and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in
whom I am well pleased.



Luke 3:22

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and
a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am
well pleased.



John 1:33

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said
unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on
him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.



1 Cor 12:3

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of
God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord,
but by the Holy Ghost.



2 Cor 3:14

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail
untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in
Christ.

---------------------------------------------------



While I do not wish to appear a troll, I do not have the time necessary to
watch and reply to all responses, although I may answer a few. If you would
like to carry on a more personalized conversation, or for suggestions on how
I can improve the readability of this post, you may email me at:
mathom0.hotmail@com (switch the @ and the dot)



Mathom

Did God die? No...!!!
Genesis 22:8 (KJV)
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt
offering: so they went both of them together.
John 1:36 (KJV)
And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Revelation 22:3 (KJV)
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the
Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
I count 2, not 3. :-)
.
User: "Mathom"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 28 Feb 2005 02:36:50 AM
"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:7rq221ha1nmeot4ggk378df2r57u9g0hhk@4ax.com...

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:53:52 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:

Many people mistakenly believe in a three-in-one God doctrine that, quite
frankly, they can't describe, define, or even imagine. This is an

attempt

to dispel the myth of the Trinity, and give the only alternative that

fully

harmonizes with the Bible. This view matches perfectly the oneness of

God

with three wholly separate, distinct, and defined beings as the Bible
indicates.



Let's start with an illustration. Imagine standing at the foot of a high
mountain on a sunny day. Picture in your mind the cliffs reaching to the
sky. You can't see anything beyond this mountain front of you because of
your perspective. To you, it would appear as if there were just the ONE
mountain. Yet, behind this mountain is another mountain, more majestic

and

beautiful, hidden from your view.



This mountain in front of you represents none other than the Creator of
Heaven and Earth, Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, the Savior of
Mankind, Alpha and Omega, the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the ONE

God

we see.



The mountain hidden from our view is the Holy Father, the Father of our
Spirits, the God who gave all power and authority to Jesus to act in HIS
name from the very beginning. HE commanded to create a world, and Jesus
created. HE commanded a Savior to Redeem us, and Jesus obeyed. HE is
hidden from us because of our sins, so Jesus became the foremost to our
view. HE is the ONE God we worship.



These conclusions are derived strictly from the Bible. Let's first take

a

look at Jesus' Intercessory Prayer (John 17). It is undeniable that

Jesus

is praying to an external being (his Father), and indeed, it does seem
peculiar that he would be praying to a separate manifestation of himself.
Let's focus instead at a different matter. Read carefully vs. 11 and 22.



"And now I am no more in the world, but [my disciples] are in the world,

and

I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name [my disciples]

whom

thou hast given me, that they may be ONE, as WE are." (John 17:11)



"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given [those who believe my
disciples' words]; that [these believers] may be ONE, even as WE are

ONE:"

(John 17:22)



The Trinity can be defined, at it's most basic level, as three different
manifestations of the same being. If the Trinity were true, then Jesus

is

praying for His Disciples and Believers to become 'ONE being or entity',
even as Jesus and His Father are 'ONE being or entity'. This is

obviously

impossible, and no amount of reasoning or rationalizing can make the

Trinity

fit in these verses. We cannot make ourselves become one being or

entity.

So, our only choice is to change our original assumption to determine how
God and Jesus are ONE.



If we were to look at the definition of ONE meaning one in purpose, one

in

mind and heart, one in will, one in testimony, then these verses makes
sense. If Jesus and His Father are separate, distinct beings and are ONE

in

purpose, heart, mind, and will, then we also CAN become ONE in the same

way.




Jesus and The Father are shown separate in numerous scriptures, but none

so

clear as after Jesus' resurrection. After appearing to Mary, he told her

to

go "and say unto [my disciples], I ascend unto my Father, and your

Father;

and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17). Our Father and Jesus' Father
are the same being, only we can't see or approach our Father as Jesus

can.

Our God and Jesus' God are the same being, but only Jesus has all power

and

authority given to him.



This was reiterated by Paul saying, "Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ." (Eph 1:3) Paul knew the relationship between the

Lord

and God (Jesus' and our Father) and further clarifies this relationship

in

Col 1:12-19.



12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers

of

the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 [The Father] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son [Jesus]:

14 In [Jesus] we have redemption through [Jesus'] blood, even the
forgiveness of sins:

15 [Jesus] who is the image of the invisible God [the Father], [Jesus is]
the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that

are

in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions,

or

principalities, or powers: all things were created by [Jesus], and for
[Jesus]:

17 And [Jesus] is before all things, and by [Jesus] all things consist.

18 And [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: [Jesus] is the
beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things [Jesus] might
have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in [Jesus] should all fulness dwell;



It was Jesus who was with the Father in the beginning and has all His

power

and authority. (John 1:1-3,14) With that power Jesus created all things
under direction of the Father. (Eph. 3:9) Jesus truly was the great "I

AM",

Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, and the Jesus Christ of the New.

(Ex

3:14; John 8:58) He says, "there is no God else beside me; a just God

and a

SAVIOUR; there is none beside me." (Isa 45:21)



Paul describes the Father as the "invisible God" (vs. 15). Jesus/Jehovah

is

the 'image' we see. The Father is invisible to us because He is 'hiding'
behind Jesus for the reason of our sins. (Isa. 59:2) We cannot approach

or

come to our Father by ourselves, only through Christ and His atonement.
(John 14:6)



Yet, we are commanded to worship and pray to our Father. (Matt 6:6)

Since

we cannot pray to Him of ourselves, Jesus must advocate our prayers to

the

Father for us. (1 Jn. 2:1) As such, we pray to our Father in Jesus'

name,

two separate and distinct beings.



"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man

Christ

Jesus;" (1 Tim. 2:5) The concept of mediation requires a "separation" of
the intervening mediator (Jesus) between the two parties (Man and

Heavenly

Father). As two separate, distinct beings, Jesus is the only one with
access to the Father, and mediates for us. For how can one mediate (or
advocate) for oneself?



Further, at the time of Jesus' baptism, all three individuals appeared at
the same time. Jesus was there being baptized, the Holy Spirit appeared,
and the Father spoke. (Matt 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:22) It is

Mark

and Luke's account that shows the separation and uniqueness of

individuals

so distinct. The Father spoke directly to His Son and said, "Thou art my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." He wasn't speaking to a

different

manifestation of Himself, but speaking as a Father speaks to a Son he was
proud of. The Spirit was also there as another witness (John 1:33)



So how, you may ask, does the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) fit into this
doctrine? The Holy Ghost is the light that shines on the mountain and

shows

us the way to get there.



The mission of the Holy Ghost is to lead people to Jesus Christ, to

testify

and bear record of him. Just as you cannot know the Father except

through

Jesus, you cannot know Jesus except through the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:3) In
fact, I would be so bold as to say you do not yet know Jesus. You

haven't

met him, you only know the Spirit. Therefore, "he who has 'seen' [the
Spirit] has 'seen' [Jesus]; and how sayest thou then, Shew us [Jesus]?"

(ref

John 14:9)



The myth of the Trinity does not work for these obstacles the Bible
presents, and does not completely harmonize with all scriptures presented
within the Bible. Trinitarians can only quote scripture that shows their
position, but they cannot fully understand them, or even begin to explain
them. Then they choose to ignore those scriptures they don't agree with.



I will help them out by quoting a few of their favorite scriptures.



1) "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30) One what? Trinitarians

insert

their interpretation to say "one entity with separate manifestations".

But

in light of the scriptures quoted above, it more likely is "one in

purpose,

heart, and mind." In fact, Jesus never uses the term "one entity" (or

even

"one God") and, in fact, separates himself from his Father.



2) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7) Again, one

what?

Same argument as above, except here it more likely represents "these

three

are one 'record' (or witness)"



3) "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9) It has already

been

stated that Jesus "is the image of the invisible God". (Col. 1:15) Jesus

is

His Father's Son. They are so alike in attributes, desires, and purposes
that to know one is to know the other.



4) "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?"

(John

14:10) Jesus says this only minutes before he prays for his disciples to

be

ONE just like He and His Father are ONE. This is not evidence that they

are

one in the same being. More likely that they have the same attributes,

the

same desires, the same purposes. In life, a son can act a great deal

like

his father. It could be said of him that 'he is his father's son,' so to
speak. How much closer is Christ like our Father?



5) "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

(Isa.

44:8) and "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside
me:" (Isa. 45:5) These scriptures are Old Law, having been superceded

by

Christ's words, and the words of His apostles, in the New Testament. (2

Cor

3:14)



However, for an explanation of these oft quoted verses, when we take the
context of this entire section of Isaiah where these scriptures reside,
these verses can be clarified by, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the
ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." (Isa. 45:22)
Jesus/Jehovah is speaking through His prophet Isaiah. He reminds them of
His protection and blessings upon them. He tells them there is only ONE

way

to salvation, only ONE God who can save them. He is not necessarily

denying

the existence of other divine beings (His Father and the Holy Ghost), He

is

only telling them, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh
unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) It is by our understanding in

the

new law that we can help understand the old.



Only by viewing God as separate divine individuals can we begin to
understand His Gospel. ONE God in purpose, mind, and will. ONE God in
image, not entity. ONE God separated by spiritual progression, not
manifestation.



Each is a distinct individual with an separate and unique responsibility.
They are not some inconceivable, unimaginable triad. As we follow the
strait and narrow path and view the road ahead they APPEAR as ONE. The

Holy

Ghost leads to Christ, and Christ brings us to the Father. Then the

Father

blesses us with all he has.



I want to add my own personal witness and testimony to this. I know this

to

be true, not just from study of the Bible, but from the Holy Ghost's

witness

in my heart, and the answers I've received from my prayers. May we all
understand this progression and receive the blessings of the Father is my
prayer.



---------------------------------------------------------

The following are verses used but not quoted in the text



John 1-3, 14

1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word

was

God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made

that

was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,



Eph 3:9

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from
the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things

by

Jesus Christ:



John 8:57-58

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and

hast

thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham

was,

I am.



Ex 3:15

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say
unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.



Isa 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your

sins

have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man

cometh

unto the Father, but by me.



Matt 6:6

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast

shut

thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which

seeth

in secret shall reward thee openly.



1 John 2:1

1 MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And

if

any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the
righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but

also

for the sins of the whole world.



Mark 1:10-11

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened,
and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son,

in

whom I am well pleased.



Luke 3:22

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

and

a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I

am

well pleased.



John 1:33

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same

said

unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on
him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.



1 Cor 12:3

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of
God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the

Lord,

but by the Holy Ghost.



2 Cor 3:14

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail
untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away

in

Christ.

---------------------------------------------------



While I do not wish to appear a troll, I do not have the time necessary

to

watch and reply to all responses, although I may answer a few. If you

would

like to carry on a more personalized conversation, or for suggestions on

how

I can improve the readability of this post, you may email me at:
mathom0.hotmail@com (switch the @ and the dot)



Mathom


Did God die? No...!!!

Genesis 22:8 (KJV)

And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt
offering: so they went both of them together.

John 1:36 (KJV)

And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Revelation 22:3 (KJV)

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the
Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

I count 2, not 3. :-)

I'm not sure where you are headed with this... Your post doesn't relate
much to what I wrote. But I will respond the best I can.
For God did NOT die. Jesus laid down his body for three days, yes. But,
His spirit lived, and He had the power given him to take his body back.
Thus overcoming death of the body through the resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them
that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the
dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Mathom
.
User: "Saint Zombie"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 01 Mar 2005 08:33:13 PM
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:36:50 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


I'm not sure where you are headed with this... Your post doesn't relate
much to what I wrote. But I will respond the best I can.

For God did NOT die. Jesus laid down his body for three days, yes. But,
His spirit lived, and He had the power given him to take his body back.
Thus overcoming death of the body through the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them
that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the
dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Mathom

I guess that means "Jesus is God". ;-)
Is Jesus your Brother, or your Father?
Make up your mind.
.
User: "Mathom"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 01 Mar 2005 11:26:45 PM
"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:k69a21lr68a1n8gje2b39ni039ac1lid4m@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:36:50 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


I'm not sure where you are headed with this... Your post doesn't relate
much to what I wrote. But I will respond the best I can.

For God did NOT die. Jesus laid down his body for three days, yes. But,
His spirit lived, and He had the power given him to take his body back.
Thus overcoming death of the body through the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of

them

that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the
dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Mathom


I guess that means "Jesus is God". ;-)

Is Jesus your Brother, or your Father?

Make up your mind.

What mind??... I have claimed neither. Jesus is my Saviour and Redeemer.
I won't let you bait me into an off topic discussion, sorry.
You apparently didn't even read my post...
Mathom
.
User: "Saint Zombie"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 02 Mar 2005 08:45:30 PM
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:26:45 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:k69a21lr68a1n8gje2b39ni039ac1lid4m@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:36:50 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


I'm not sure where you are headed with this... Your post doesn't relate
much to what I wrote. But I will respond the best I can.

For God did NOT die. Jesus laid down his body for three days, yes. But,
His spirit lived, and He had the power given him to take his body back.
Thus overcoming death of the body through the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of

them

that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the
dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Mathom


I guess that means "Jesus is God". ;-)

Is Jesus your Brother, or your Father?

Make up your mind.


What mind??... I have claimed neither. Jesus is my Saviour and Redeemer.
I won't let you bait me into an off topic discussion, sorry.

You apparently didn't even read my post...

That's because you appear to be a very confused individual. ;-)

Mathom

.
User: "Mathom"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 03 Mar 2005 01:10:21 AM
"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:eguc21lacfnt8q5hsroebmsdq67r3q2g0c@4ax.com...

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:26:45 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:k69a21lr68a1n8gje2b39ni039ac1lid4m@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:36:50 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


I'm not sure where you are headed with this... Your post doesn't

relate

much to what I wrote. But I will respond the best I can.

For God did NOT die. Jesus laid down his body for three days, yes.

But,

His spirit lived, and He had the power given him to take his body

back.

Thus overcoming death of the body through the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits

of

them

that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of

the

dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Mathom


I guess that means "Jesus is God". ;-)

Is Jesus your Brother, or your Father?

Make up your mind.


What mind??... I have claimed neither. Jesus is my Saviour and

Redeemer.

I won't let you bait me into an off topic discussion, sorry.

You apparently didn't even read my post...


That's because you appear to be a very confused individual. ;-)

Appearances can be deceptive. The only thing I'm confused about is where
you are coming from, and where you are going with any of this...
No no no, don't tell me. I can live with the intrigue.

Mathom


.
User: "Saint Zombie"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 03 Mar 2005 08:32:18 PM
On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:10:21 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:eguc21lacfnt8q5hsroebmsdq67r3q2g0c@4ax.com...

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:26:45 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:k69a21lr68a1n8gje2b39ni039ac1lid4m@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:36:50 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


I'm not sure where you are headed with this... Your post doesn't

relate

much to what I wrote. But I will respond the best I can.

For God did NOT die. Jesus laid down his body for three days, yes.

But,

His spirit lived, and He had the power given him to take his body

back.

Thus overcoming death of the body through the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits

of

them

that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of

the

dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Mathom


I guess that means "Jesus is God". ;-)

Is Jesus your Brother, or your Father?

Make up your mind.


What mind??... I have claimed neither. Jesus is my Saviour and

Redeemer.

I won't let you bait me into an off topic discussion, sorry.

You apparently didn't even read my post...


That's because you appear to be a very confused individual. ;-)


Appearances can be deceptive. The only thing I'm confused about is where
you are coming from, and where you are going with any of this...

Did I say I was going anywhere?
But where I'm from, is where you have not been (yet).

No no no, don't tell me. I can live with the intrigue.

Which is were you shall remain, I suppose, for the next little while.
Enjoy your sense of intrigue, because it is not mine, it is all yours.

Mathom



.
User: "Mathom"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 04 Mar 2005 08:38:32 AM
"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:5qhf21h1pvrd76p65s5gse14tt9elrmuud@4ax.com...

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:10:21 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:eguc21lacfnt8q5hsroebmsdq67r3q2g0c@4ax.com...

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:26:45 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:k69a21lr68a1n8gje2b39ni039ac1lid4m@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:36:50 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


I'm not sure where you are headed with this... Your post doesn't

relate

much to what I wrote. But I will respond the best I can.

For God did NOT die. Jesus laid down his body for three days, yes.

But,

His spirit lived, and He had the power given him to take his body

back.

Thus overcoming death of the body through the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the

firstfruits

of

them

that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection

of

the

dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made

alive.


Mathom


I guess that means "Jesus is God". ;-)

Is Jesus your Brother, or your Father?

Make up your mind.


What mind??... I have claimed neither. Jesus is my Saviour and

Redeemer.

I won't let you bait me into an off topic discussion, sorry.

You apparently didn't even read my post...


That's because you appear to be a very confused individual. ;-)


Appearances can be deceptive. The only thing I'm confused about is where
you are coming from, and where you are going with any of this...


Did I say I was going anywhere?

But where I'm from, is where you have not been (yet).

And, God willing, I have no intention of ever going there.

No no no, don't tell me. I can live with the intrigue.


Which is were you shall remain, I suppose, for the next little while.

Enjoy your sense of intrigue, because it is not mine, it is all yours.

Ever hear of sarcasm? Good, because I used it.
Unless you have the slightest concern for a dialogue, and you haven't shown
any thus far, don't bother posting again.

Mathom




.
User: "Saint Zombie"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 04 Mar 2005 07:39:07 PM
On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:38:32 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:5qhf21h1pvrd76p65s5gse14tt9elrmuud@4ax.com...

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:10:21 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:eguc21lacfnt8q5hsroebmsdq67r3q2g0c@4ax.com...

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:26:45 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:k69a21lr68a1n8gje2b39ni039ac1lid4m@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:36:50 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


I'm not sure where you are headed with this... Your post doesn't

relate

much to what I wrote. But I will respond the best I can.

For God did NOT die. Jesus laid down his body for three days, yes.

But,

His spirit lived, and He had the power given him to take his body

back.

Thus overcoming death of the body through the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the

firstfruits

of

them

that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection

of

the

dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made

alive.


Mathom


I guess that means "Jesus is God". ;-)

Is Jesus your Brother, or your Father?

Make up your mind.


What mind??... I have claimed neither. Jesus is my Saviour and

Redeemer.

I won't let you bait me into an off topic discussion, sorry.

You apparently didn't even read my post...


That's because you appear to be a very confused individual. ;-)


Appearances can be deceptive. The only thing I'm confused about is where
you are coming from, and where you are going with any of this...


Did I say I was going anywhere?

But where I'm from, is where you have not been (yet).


And, God willing, I have no intention of ever going there.

Which is exactly why you remain over there.

No no no, don't tell me. I can live with the intrigue.


Which is were you shall remain, I suppose, for the next little while.

Enjoy your sense of intrigue, because it is not mine, it is all yours.


Ever hear of sarcasm? Good, because I used it.

Unless you have the slightest concern for a dialogue, and you haven't shown
any thus far, don't bother posting again.

I see no reason to debate the facts ...
.... the facts do not require any dialogue. ;-)
And if you cannot except the facts ...
.... then you have the option (pseudo freedom) to block me.
Bye bye. :-)

Mathom





.
User: "Mathom"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 04 Mar 2005 10:39:23 PM
"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:4u2i219abmko1gnl7smnqk9p2b0augejpd@4ax.com...

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:38:32 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:5qhf21h1pvrd76p65s5gse14tt9elrmuud@4ax.com...

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:10:21 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:eguc21lacfnt8q5hsroebmsdq67r3q2g0c@4ax.com...

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:26:45 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:


"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:k69a21lr68a1n8gje2b39ni039ac1lid4m@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:36:50 -0700, "Mathom"

<mathom0.hotmail@com>

wrote:


I'm not sure where you are headed with this... Your post

doesn't

relate

much to what I wrote. But I will respond the best I can.

For God did NOT die. Jesus laid down his body for three days,

yes.

But,

His spirit lived, and He had the power given him to take his

body

back.

Thus overcoming death of the body through the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the

firstfruits

of

them

that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the

resurrection

of

the

dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made

alive.


Mathom


I guess that means "Jesus is God". ;-)

Is Jesus your Brother, or your Father?

Make up your mind.


What mind??... I have claimed neither. Jesus is my Saviour and

Redeemer.

I won't let you bait me into an off topic discussion, sorry.

You apparently didn't even read my post...


That's because you appear to be a very confused individual. ;-)


Appearances can be deceptive. The only thing I'm confused about is

where

you are coming from, and where you are going with any of this...


Did I say I was going anywhere?

But where I'm from, is where you have not been (yet).


And, God willing, I have no intention of ever going there.


Which is exactly why you remain over there.

Which is exactly where I want to be. It's where God is.

No no no, don't tell me. I can live with the intrigue.


Which is were you shall remain, I suppose, for the next little while.

Enjoy your sense of intrigue, because it is not mine, it is all yours.


Ever hear of sarcasm? Good, because I used it.

Unless you have the slightest concern for a dialogue, and you haven't

shown

any thus far, don't bother posting again.


I see no reason to debate the facts ...

And as you have not given any facts...

... the facts do not require any dialogue. ;-)

.... only nonsense from you has been exchanged.
You have just been engaging in "I want the last word" argument.

And if you cannot except the facts ...

... then you have the option (pseudo freedom) to block me.

Bye bye. :-)

Block you? Nah, you might actually have something worthwhile to say in the
future. Woulndn't want to miss it. ;-)
I'd say Bye bye, but you will have your "last word" I'm sure. You can have
it. I won't be checking responses here anymore.
.







User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 30 Nov 2005 04:11:24 PM
"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:k69a21lr68a1n8gje2b39ni039ac1lid4m@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:36:50 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:

I'm not sure where you are headed with this... Your post doesn't relate
much to what I wrote. But I will respond the best I can.
For God did NOT die. Jesus laid down his body for three days, yes. But,
His spirit lived, and He had the power given him to take his body back.
Thus overcoming death of the body through the resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of
them
that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the
dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Mathom


I guess that means "Jesus is God". ;-)

How ?

Is Jesus your Brother, or your Father?

He is my Friend

Make up your mind.

.




User: "Uncle Davey"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 26 Feb 2005 09:59:46 AM
Użytkownik "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com> napisał w wiadomości
news:1109411634.7528ad9dc40caacfef928c18b3cde41e@teranews...

Many people mistakenly believe in a three-in-one God doctrine that, quite
frankly, they can't describe, define, or even imagine. This is an attempt
to dispel the myth of the Trinity, and give the only alternative that

fully

harmonizes with the Bible. This view matches perfectly the oneness of God
with three wholly separate, distinct, and defined beings as the Bible
indicates.



Let's start with an illustration. Imagine standing at the foot of a high
mountain on a sunny day. Picture in your mind the cliffs reaching to the
sky. You can't see anything beyond this mountain front of you because of
your perspective. To you, it would appear as if there were just the ONE
mountain. Yet, behind this mountain is another mountain, more majestic

and

beautiful, hidden from your view.



This mountain in front of you represents none other than the Creator of
Heaven and Earth, Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, the Savior of
Mankind, Alpha and Omega, the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the ONE God
we see.



The mountain hidden from our view is the Holy Father, the Father of our
Spirits, the God who gave all power and authority to Jesus to act in HIS
name from the very beginning. HE commanded to create a world, and Jesus
created. HE commanded a Savior to Redeem us, and Jesus obeyed. HE is
hidden from us because of our sins, so Jesus became the foremost to our
view. HE is the ONE God we worship.



These conclusions are derived strictly from the Bible. Let's first take a
look at Jesus' Intercessory Prayer (John 17). It is undeniable that Jesus
is praying to an external being (his Father), and indeed, it does seem
peculiar that he would be praying to a separate manifestation of himself.
Let's focus instead at a different matter. Read carefully vs. 11 and 22.



"And now I am no more in the world, but [my disciples] are in the world,

and

I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name [my disciples]

whom

thou hast given me, that they may be ONE, as WE are." (John 17:11)



"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given [those who believe my
disciples' words]; that [these believers] may be ONE, even as WE are ONE:"
(John 17:22)



The Trinity can be defined, at it's most basic level, as three different
manifestations of the same being. If the Trinity were true, then Jesus is
praying for His Disciples and Believers to become 'ONE being or entity',
even as Jesus and His Father are 'ONE being or entity'. This is obviously
impossible, and no amount of reasoning or rationalizing can make the

Trinity

fit in these verses. We cannot make ourselves become one being or entity.
So, our only choice is to change our original assumption to determine how
God and Jesus are ONE.



If we were to look at the definition of ONE meaning one in purpose, one

in

mind and heart, one in will, one in testimony, then these verses makes
sense. If Jesus and His Father are separate, distinct beings and are ONE

in

purpose, heart, mind, and will, then we also CAN become ONE in the same

way.




Jesus and The Father are shown separate in numerous scriptures, but none

so

clear as after Jesus' resurrection. After appearing to Mary, he told her

to

go "and say unto [my disciples], I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;
and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17). Our Father and Jesus' Father
are the same being, only we can't see or approach our Father as Jesus can.
Our God and Jesus' God are the same being, but only Jesus has all power

and

authority given to him.



This was reiterated by Paul saying, "Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ." (Eph 1:3) Paul knew the relationship between the Lord
and God (Jesus' and our Father) and further clarifies this relationship in
Col 1:12-19.



12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers

of

the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 [The Father] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son [Jesus]:

14 In [Jesus] we have redemption through [Jesus'] blood, even the
forgiveness of sins:

15 [Jesus] who is the image of the invisible God [the Father], [Jesus is]
the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that

are

in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers: all things were created by [Jesus], and for
[Jesus]:

17 And [Jesus] is before all things, and by [Jesus] all things consist.

18 And [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: [Jesus] is the
beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things [Jesus] might
have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in [Jesus] should all fulness dwell;



It was Jesus who was with the Father in the beginning and has all His

power

and authority. (John 1:1-3,14) With that power Jesus created all things
under direction of the Father. (Eph. 3:9) Jesus truly was the great "I

AM",

Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, and the Jesus Christ of the New.

(Ex

3:14; John 8:58) He says, "there is no God else beside me; a just God and

a

SAVIOUR; there is none beside me." (Isa 45:21)



Paul describes the Father as the "invisible God" (vs. 15). Jesus/Jehovah

is

the 'image' we see. The Father is invisible to us because He is 'hiding'
behind Jesus for the reason of our sins. (Isa. 59:2) We cannot approach

or

come to our Father by ourselves, only through Christ and His atonement.
(John 14:6)



Yet, we are commanded to worship and pray to our Father. (Matt 6:6) Since
we cannot pray to Him of ourselves, Jesus must advocate our prayers to the
Father for us. (1 Jn. 2:1) As such, we pray to our Father in Jesus' name,
two separate and distinct beings.



"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man

Christ

Jesus;" (1 Tim. 2:5) The concept of mediation requires a "separation" of
the intervening mediator (Jesus) between the two parties (Man and Heavenly
Father). As two separate, distinct beings, Jesus is the only one with
access to the Father, and mediates for us. For how can one mediate (or
advocate) for oneself?



Further, at the time of Jesus' baptism, all three individuals appeared at
the same time. Jesus was there being baptized, the Holy Spirit appeared,
and the Father spoke. (Matt 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:22) It is Mark
and Luke's account that shows the separation and uniqueness of individuals
so distinct. The Father spoke directly to His Son and said, "Thou art my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." He wasn't speaking to a

different

manifestation of Himself, but speaking as a Father speaks to a Son he was
proud of. The Spirit was also there as another witness (John 1:33)



So how, you may ask, does the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) fit into this
doctrine? The Holy Ghost is the light that shines on the mountain and

shows

us the way to get there.



The mission of the Holy Ghost is to lead people to Jesus Christ, to

testify

and bear record of him. Just as you cannot know the Father except through
Jesus, you cannot know Jesus except through the Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:3) In
fact, I would be so bold as to say you do not yet know Jesus. You haven't
met him, you only know the Spirit. Therefore, "he who has 'seen' [the
Spirit] has 'seen' [Jesus]; and how sayest thou then, Shew us [Jesus]?"

(ref

John 14:9)



The myth of the Trinity does not work for these obstacles the Bible
presents, and does not completely harmonize with all scriptures presented
within the Bible. Trinitarians can only quote scripture that shows their
position, but they cannot fully understand them, or even begin to explain
them. Then they choose to ignore those scriptures they don't agree with.



I will help them out by quoting a few of their favorite scriptures.



1) "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30) One what? Trinitarians insert
their interpretation to say "one entity with separate manifestations".

But

in light of the scriptures quoted above, it more likely is "one in

purpose,

heart, and mind." In fact, Jesus never uses the term "one entity" (or

even

"one God") and, in fact, separates himself from his Father.



2) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7) Again, one

what?

Same argument as above, except here it more likely represents "these three
are one 'record' (or witness)"



3) "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9) It has already

been

stated that Jesus "is the image of the invisible God". (Col. 1:15) Jesus

is

His Father's Son. They are so alike in attributes, desires, and purposes
that to know one is to know the other.



4) "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?"

(John

14:10) Jesus says this only minutes before he prays for his disciples to

be

ONE just like He and His Father are ONE. This is not evidence that they

are

one in the same being. More likely that they have the same attributes,

the

same desires, the same purposes. In life, a son can act a great deal like
his father. It could be said of him that 'he is his father's son,' so to
speak. How much closer is Christ like our Father?



5) "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Isa.
44:8) and "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside
me:" (Isa. 45:5) These scriptures are Old Law, having been superceded by
Christ's words, and the words of His apostles, in the New Testament. (2

Cor

3:14)



However, for an explanation of these oft quoted verses, when we take the
context of this entire section of Isaiah where these scriptures reside,
these verses can be clarified by, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the
ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." (Isa. 45:22)
Jesus/Jehovah is speaking through His prophet Isaiah. He reminds them of
His protection and blessings upon them. He tells them there is only ONE

way

to salvation, only ONE God who can save them. He is not necessarily

denying

the existence of other divine beings (His Father and the Holy Ghost), He

is

only telling them, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh
unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) It is by our understanding in

the

new law that we can help understand the old.



Only by viewing God as separate divine individuals can we begin to
understand His Gospel. ONE God in purpose, mind, and will. ONE God in
image, not entity. ONE God separated by spiritual progression, not
manifestation.



Each is a distinct individual with an separate and unique responsibility.
They are not some inconceivable, unimaginable triad. As we follow the
strait and narrow path and view the road ahead they APPEAR as ONE. The

Holy

Ghost leads to Christ, and Christ brings us to the Father. Then the

Father

blesses us with all he has.



I want to add my own personal witness and testimony to this. I know this

to

be true, not just from study of the Bible, but from the Holy Ghost's

witness

in my heart, and the answers I've received from my prayers. May we all
understand this progression and receive the blessings of the Father is my
prayer.



---------------------------------------------------------

The following are verses used but not quoted in the text



John 1-3, 14

1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word

was

God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,



Eph 3:9

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from
the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by
Jesus Christ:



John 8:57-58

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast
thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham

was,

I am.



Ex 3:15

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say
unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.



Isa 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins
have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh
unto the Father, but by me.



Matt 6:6

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast

shut

thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which

seeth

in secret shall reward thee openly.



1 John 2:1

1 MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And

if

any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the
righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also
for the sins of the whole world.



Mark 1:10-11

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened,
and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in
whom I am well pleased.



Luke 3:22

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

and

a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I

am

well pleased.



John 1:33

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same

said

unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on
him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.



1 Cor 12:3

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of
God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the

Lord,

but by the Holy Ghost.



2 Cor 3:14

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail
untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away

in

Christ.

---------------------------------------------------



While I do not wish to appear a troll, I do not have the time necessary to
watch and reply to all responses, although I may answer a few. If you

would

like to carry on a more personalized conversation, or for suggestions on

how

I can improve the readability of this post, you may email me at:
mathom0.hotmail@com (switch the @ and the dot)



Mathom


Why don't you set your clock properly? When you can persuade us you know
what day it is, then maybe just maybe someone might listen to the other
things you are trying to say.
Uncle Davey
.

User: "jw j"

Title: Re: Oneness of God - Trinity Myths 26 Feb 2005 11:10:06 PM
x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:53:52 -0700, "Mathom" <mathom0.hotmail@com>
wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)

Many people mistakenly believe in a three-in-one God doctrine that, quite
frankly, they can't describe, define, or even imagine. This is an attempt
to dispel the myth of the Trinity, and give the only alternative that fully
harmonizes with the Bible. This view matches perfectly the oneness of God
with three wholly separate, distinct, and defined beings as the Bible
indicates.



Let's start with an illustration. Imagine standing at the foot of a high
mountain on a sunny day. Picture in your mind the cliffs reaching to the
sky. You can't see anything beyond this mountain front of you because of
your perspective. To you, it would appear as if there were just the ONE
mountain. Yet, behind this mountain is another mountain, more majestic and
beautiful, hidden from your view.


I've skimmed this, looking for a fight between an anti-God,
anti-Trinity skeptic, and me, a devout believer in the God of Abraham,
and the Christ; and being pleasantly surprised.
I'll have to get back to this later. I'm fighting my computer again.
BTW, unrelated comment!
For any who are considering using NTFS as your hard drive manager, I
recommend you don't. FAT32 works very well, and it's not as
complicated or as easy to screw up.
jw


This mountain in front of you represents none other than the Creator of
Heaven and Earth, Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, the Savior of
Mankind, Alpha and Omega, the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the ONE God
we see.



The mountain hidden from our view is the Holy Father, the Father of our
Spirits, the God who gave all power and authority to Jesus to act in HIS
name from the very beginning. HE commanded to create a world, and Jesus
created. HE commanded a Savior to Redeem us, and Jesus obeyed. HE is
hidden from us because of our sins, so Jesus became the foremost to our
view. HE is the ONE God we worship.



These conclusions are derived strictly from the Bible. Let's first take a
look at Jesus' Intercessory Prayer (John 17). It is undeniable that Jesus
is praying to an external being (his Father), and indeed, it does seem
peculiar that he would be praying to a separate manifestation of himself.
Let's focus instead at a different matter. Read carefully vs. 11 and 22.



"And now I am no more in the world, but [my disciples] are in the world, and
I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name [my disciples] whom
thou hast given me, that they may be ONE, as WE are." (John 17:11)



"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given [those who believe my
disciples' words]; that [these believers] may be ONE, even as WE are ONE:"
(John 17:22)



The Trinity can be defined, at it's most basic level, as three different
manifestations of the same being. If the Trinity were true, then Jesus is
praying for His Disciples and Believers to become 'ONE being or entity',
even as Jesus and His Father are 'ONE being or entity'. This is obviously
impossible, and no amount of reasoning or rationalizing can make the Trinity
fit in these verses. We cannot make ourselves become one being or entity.
So, our only choice is to change our original assumption to determine how
God and Jesus are ONE.



If we were to look at the definition of ONE meaning one in purpose, one in
mind and heart, one in will, one in testimony, then these verses makes
sense. If Jesus and His Father are separate, distinct beings and are ONE in
purpose, heart, mind, and will, then we also CAN become ONE in the same way.



Jesus and The Father are shown separate in numerous scriptures, but none so
clear as after Jesus' resurrection. After appearing to Mary, he told her to
go "and say unto [my disciples], I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;
and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17). Our Father and Jesus' Father
are the same being, only we can't see or approach our Father as Jesus can.
Our God and Jesus' God are the same being, but only Jesus has all power and
authority given to him.



This was reiterated by Paul saying, "Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ." (Eph 1:3) Paul knew the relationship between the Lord
and God (Jesus' and our Father) and further clarifies this relationship in
Col 1:12-19.



12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of
the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 [The Father] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son [Jesus]:

14 In [Jesus] we have redemption through [Jesus'] blood, even the
forgiveness of sins:

15 [Jesus] who is the image of the invisible God [the Father], [Jesus is]
the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by [Jesus] were all things created, that are i