Religions > Bible > OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Randy" |
| Date: |
09 Jan 2007 12:22:13 AM |
| Object: |
OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:56:31 -0800,
in article <12prq4k8uhf711d@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Force" may include physical force, or the use of a drug, or emotional
duress, coercion, fear or guilt, the threat of violence, or the force of
law, persuasion or argument
The Bible is God's "power" of persuasion (Romans 1). Faith
comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17).
The "word" means the proclaimed or preached word. The
proclamation of God's word, IS God's agent of persuasion.
Thus, any time someone proclaims the word of God, they are
using a power of persuasion. Owd wants to equate persuasion
with illegal "force", or rape.
Once you establish the principle that a power of persuasion is
illegal "force", Christians can then be persecuted, fined,
plundered, or imprisoned for doing nothing more than
proclaiming the word of God.
If you read the Bible to your children to persuade them to
obey? Well, that's an illegal use of "force", because you
"persuaded" them to obey when they didn't want to obey.
Thus, while this hypocrite pretends to be warning us of the
coming persecution from day to day, as if he's trying to help
us, he is the one laying the foundation for the oppression of
believers, by trying to equate "persuasion", with illegal
"force".
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
09 Jan 2007 04:57:21 AM |
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"Rany" <whose pulpit caught on fire> wrote in message
oldwetdog <> wrote:
You are still crying loser!!
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| User: "Bible Believer" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
09 Jan 2007 01:57:55 PM |
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On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:22:13 -0600, Randy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> claimed:
On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:56:31 -0800,
in article <12prq4k8uhf711d@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Force" may include physical force, or the use of a drug, or emotional
duress, coercion, fear or guilt, the threat of violence, or the force of
law, persuasion or argument
The Bible is God's "power" of persuasion (Romans 1). Faith
comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17).
The "word" means the proclaimed or preached word. The
proclamation of God's word, IS God's agent of persuasion.
Thus, any time someone proclaims the word of God, they are
using a power of persuasion. Owd wants to equate persuasion
with illegal "force", or rape.
Once you establish the principle that a power of persuasion is
illegal "force", Christians can then be persecuted, fined,
plundered, or imprisoned for doing nothing more than
proclaiming the word of God.
If you read the Bible to your children to persuade them to
obey? Well, that's an illegal use of "force", because you
"persuaded" them to obey when they didn't want to obey.
Not just Christians, but it means that anything anyone says
to persuade anyone of anything, is guilty of using force and
therefore, rape.
Thus, while this hypocrite pretends to be warning us of the
coming persecution from day to day, as if he's trying to help
us, he is the one laying the foundation for the oppression of
believers, by trying to equate "persuasion", with illegal
"force".
Absolutely!
--
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar. When people claim that
this or that in the Bible isn't God's word,
what they are doing is trying to set themselves
up as judge and jury of what God said to man
and I would rather believe God, than believe
that you are some divine being who is here
to tell us what God has to say. That role
was already taken by Jesus. So I'm sorry,
but you lose and you have nothing by which
you can convince me otherwise! And if you
don't like what the Bible says, then get a
new god. But do not pretend to be a Christian!
.
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| User: "Bible Believer" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
09 Jan 2007 04:46:05 AM |
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On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:22:13 -0600, Randy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> claimed:
On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:56:31 -0800,
in article <12prq4k8uhf711d@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Force" may include physical force, or the use of a drug, or emotional
duress, coercion, fear or guilt, the threat of violence, or the force of
law, persuasion or argument
The Bible is God's "power" of persuasion (Romans 1). Faith
comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17).
The "word" means the proclaimed or preached word. The
proclamation of God's word, IS God's agent of persuasion.
Thus, any time someone proclaims the word of God, they are
using a power of persuasion. Owd wants to equate persuasion
with illegal "force", or rape.
Once you establish the principle that a power of persuasion is
illegal "force", Christians can then be persecuted, fined,
plundered, or imprisoned for doing nothing more than
proclaiming the word of God.
Glenn is just fine with that idea. He does not want
Christianity spread. He wants to be the cult leader
of the world and have everyone kneel before him
and kiss his feet. While he rails against the Pope,
the truth is, he's jealous of the Pope and wants
his power. He wants hundreds of millions of people
eagerly waiting to kiss his *****.
If you read the Bible to your children to persuade them to
obey? Well, that's an illegal use of "force", because you
"persuaded" them to obey when they didn't want to obey.
Glenn will make himself exempt under his new Popeship
and make sure that anyone who points out his hypocrisy
gets the death sentence.
--
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar. When people claim that
this or that in the Bible isn't God's word,
what they are doing is trying to set themselves
up as judge and jury of what God said to man
and I would rather believe God, than believe
that you are some divine being who is here
to tell us what God has to say. That role
was already taken by Jesus. So I'm sorry,
but you lose and you have nothing by which
you can convince me otherwise! And if you
don't like what the Bible says, then get a
new god. But do not pretend to be a Christian!
.
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
09 Jan 2007 05:00:11 AM |
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"Bible Believer" <> wrote in message
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar.
It's like you said, clown, you believe.
That makes you a simple minded religionist. You can take a bible put
together by a PAGAN ROMAN EMPEROR, and rather than have to think you merrily
accept it.
That does not make you a christian, it makes you a LAZY FUCKING
RELIGIONIST!!
.
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| User: "Jude ** Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
09 Jan 2007 09:12:28 AM |
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"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:%AKoh.118524$rv4.16819@edtnps90...
"Bible Believer" <> wrote in message
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar.
It's like you said, clown, you believe.
That makes you a simple minded religionist. You can take a bible put
together by a PAGAN ROMAN EMPEROR, and rather than have to think you
merrily
accept it.
That does not make you a christian, it makes you a LAZY FUCKING
RELIGIONIST!!
Perhaps "Bible Believer" should educate himself a bit:
Between Jesus' life and the year 313, the church went through many changes.
At first, "Christians' Scriptures" were only the Jewish Law and the Prophets
and some of the Jewish Writings, such as the Psalms. Though they used simple
affirmations of faith, such as "Jesus is Lord," they did not have formal
creeds or confessions. Worship was not highly structured and existed in a
variety of forms.
The earliest center of Christianity was Jerusalem but, in 70 A.D. a Jewish
revolt failed. The Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. These
events were a major turning for both Judaism and Christianity.
After 70 A.D., Christians became dispersed, moving out more and more beyond
Israel. Christianity increasingly became Hellenized. Greek, not Aramaic,
became the primary language of Christians. Instead of Jerusalem, the three
cities of Antioch in Syria , Alexandria in Egypt and Rome in Italy became
the most important centers for Christian communities.
As the first generation of Christians died and persecutions continued,
issues relating to authority and the Bible emerged. What was orthodoxy and
what was heresy? For a timeline from Jesus to Constantine click on :
http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/bible/jc.html
After the Edict of Milan (see below), many more people became Christians.
Most were not Jewish and were ignorant Judeo-Christian scripture, tradition,
and theology. With more converts from multiple geographical, language, and
other cultural contexts, additional variations of Christianity developed.
Conflict and controversy were not new to Christianity; however the Christian
Empire experienced some substantial disputes. When Constantine I became the
ruler of Rome in 313, the Donatist controversy was raging in North Africa
and Numidia. A soldier and a statesman who liked order and agreement,
Constantine tried to quell it but not very successfully. Constantine was not
a theologian, but he took steps during his rule to try to make Christianity
less conflictual by calling the Council of Nicea to settle the Arian
controversy. One result of the the council was the drafting of a version of
what we now call the Nicene Creed.
Constantine played a significant role in the canonization of the Bible. His
desire for and actions to create unity and uniformity contributed to the
process of deciding upon a fixed canon. In addition, he financed fifty
copies of the scriptures to be produced for use in Constantinople. The
production of these manuscripts were supervised by Eusebius of Caesarea, who
tells about of the request in his book Life of Constantine. Presumedly,
these scriptures were the complete New Testament but some scholars think
they consisted only of the four gospels.
Furthermore, Athanasius (c. 296-373) is known as the "Father of Orthodoxy."
In his lifetime, he struggled against Arianism (see below).
Athanasius accompanied Bishop Alexander of Alexandria to the Council of
Nicea in 325. Tradition says he played a significant role in the decisions
at the council, but this may not be true because he was only a deacon.
Without a doubt, Athanasius championed the Nicene formula for the rest of
his lifetime and was recognized as a major authority on Christology.
When Alexander died in 328, Athanasius became bishop of Alexandria, a
position he held for 45 years until his death. He found himself constantly
embroiled in conflicts as he adhered to orthodoxy; he was exiled five times.
He wrote literature on controversies related to the Arians, the Holy Spirit,
and Christology. In his "Letters to Serapian," Athanasius became one of the
first theologians to pay serious attention to the status of the Holy Spirit.
At Easter time each year, Athanasius sent a letter to the Egyptian churches.
His 39thFestal Letter, written in 367, provides the oldest list of the 27
books of the New Testament canon that we have today.
*The persecution of Christians ended in 313 when Constantine of the West and
Licinius of the East proclaimed the Edict of Milan, which established a
policy of religious freedom for all. For the English translation of this
edict click on: http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/bible/milan.stm
**The Arian controversy began in Alexandria, Egypt about 318 AD. Arius (c.
250-c. 336) was a popular Alexandrian priest whose theology about who Jesus
was was condemned as heretical by the First Council of Nicaea in 325 and
also at the First Council of Constantinople in 381. Arius disagreed with the
Bishop Alexander of Alexandria's idea of the Trinity. Arius thought that
Alexander was confusing the Son with the Father, who stressed the divinity
of the Logos and also his exact likeness with the Father. Arius argued that
Jesus, the Logos, was a "creature" who was "begotten" of the Father. Arius,
like Origen, believed that the Father was the only true God. The Nicene
Creed was written to respond to Arianism.
.
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| User: "Jani" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
09 Jan 2007 10:48:53 AM |
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"Jude ** Alexander" <Cajun@swamp.USA> wrote in message
news:PcOoh.25542$641.912@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:%AKoh.118524$rv4.16819@edtnps90...
"Bible Believer" <> wrote in message
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar.
It's like you said, clown, you believe.
That makes you a simple minded religionist. You can take a bible put
together by a PAGAN ROMAN EMPEROR, and rather than have to think you
merrily
accept it.
That does not make you a christian, it makes you a LAZY FUCKING
RELIGIONIST!!
Perhaps "Bible Believer" should educate himself a bit:
"Bible Believer" is Dave. Dave and education don't go together.
Jani
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| User: "Jude + Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
09 Jan 2007 04:42:32 PM |
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"Jani" <jani@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:BL6dnX4n-4V2Wj7YnZ2dnUVZ8siknZ2d@pipex.net...
"Jude ** Alexander" <Cajun@swamp.USA> wrote in message
news:PcOoh.25542$641.912@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:%AKoh.118524$rv4.16819@edtnps90...
"Bible Believer" <> wrote in message
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar.
It's like you said, clown, you believe.
That makes you a simple minded religionist. You can take a bible put
together by a PAGAN ROMAN EMPEROR, and rather than have to think you
merrily
accept it.
That does not make you a christian, it makes you a LAZY FUCKING
RELIGIONIST!!
Perhaps "Bible Believer" should educate himself a bit:
"Bible Believer" is Dave. Dave and education don't go together.
Jani
Actually, that post was the first that I had seen "Bible Believer" and the
next one I saw I figured out it was Dave. :)
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| User: "oldwetdog" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
09 Jan 2007 12:08:10 PM |
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Jani wrote:
"Jude ** Alexander" <Cajun@swamp.USA> wrote in message
news:PcOoh.25542$641.912@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:%AKoh.118524$rv4.16819@edtnps90...
"Bible Believer" <> wrote in message
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar.
It's like you said, clown, you believe.
That makes you a simple minded religionist. You can take a bible put
together by a PAGAN ROMAN EMPEROR, and rather than have to think you
merrily
accept it.
That does not make you a christian, it makes you a LAZY FUCKING
RELIGIONIST!!
Perhaps "Bible Believer" should educate himself a bit:
"Bible Believer" is Dave. Dave and education don't go together.
Jani
O! Come now, Jani! YOu're saying that Dave
(aka % -*- Truth -*- %, Azaliah, Giant Waffle, Pastor Dave, Ananias917,
AD70) THAT Dave?
Is posing as "Bible Believer"?
O my my, wonders WILL never cease!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
10 Jan 2007 06:41:56 AM |
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Jude ** Alexander wrote:
"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:%AKoh.118524$rv4.16819@edtnps90...
"Bible Believer" <> wrote in message
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar.
It's like you said, clown, you believe.
That makes you a simple minded religionist. You can take a bible put
together by a PAGAN ROMAN EMPEROR, and rather than have to think you
merrily
accept it.
That does not make you a christian, it makes you a LAZY FUCKING
RELIGIONIST!!
Perhaps "Bible Believer" should educate himself a bit:
Between Jesus' life and the year 313, the church went through many changes. ...
(snip)
This all seems true, although it places no barrier to the idea that
Jesus and his apostles taught nothing in particular and that the first
generation didn't care about doctrine. (This of course is not so --
what other subject obsesses John, Paul and the Fathers? -- and seems
ridiculous for a group that defines itself by ideology).
But surely the person you seek to educate is the troll currently
calling himself 'Zadok', not 'Bible believer'. Your post contradicts
the former, not the latter? Or have I misunderstood.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
11 Jan 2007 02:22:25 PM |
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<roger_pearse> wrote in message
Or have I misunderstood.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
As usual Rog, you have misunderstood.
But that is nothing new.
And all the best to you!!
Smile.
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| User: "Jude + Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
10 Jan 2007 11:06:12 AM |
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<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1168432916.148099.29250@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Jude ** Alexander wrote:
"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:%AKoh.118524$rv4.16819@edtnps90...
"Bible Believer" <> wrote in message
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar.
It's like you said, clown, you believe.
That makes you a simple minded religionist. You can take a bible put
together by a PAGAN ROMAN EMPEROR, and rather than have to think you
merrily
accept it.
That does not make you a christian, it makes you a LAZY FUCKING
RELIGIONIST!!
Perhaps "Bible Believer" should educate himself a bit:
Between Jesus' life and the year 313, the church went through many
changes. ...
(snip)
This all seems true, although it places no barrier to the idea that
Jesus and his apostles taught nothing in particular and that the first
generation didn't care about doctrine. (This of course is not so --
what other subject obsesses John, Paul and the Fathers? -- and seems
ridiculous for a group that defines itself by ideology).
But surely the person you seek to educate is the troll currently
calling himself 'Zadok', not 'Bible believer'. Your post contradicts
the former, not the latter? Or have I misunderstood.
Yes. I don't agree with all of Zadok's sayings but I am definately sure
that Dave is full of ignorance.
Final word from me on this subject with you (you can have the last word) is
that the canonization process is so flawed that it can bring one to tears
and also to a deep level of frustration in the understanding that so many
people follow like blind sheep in complete trust of perhaps of hundreds or
so mortal men's 300 year battle to have what we call today the unquestioned
"word of God" in the New Testament form. I HOPE you understand all the
incredible nuances of what highly likely went on during those years when men
were fighting for "their" (according to their long standing acceptance of
that book) vs. "another's" book(same reason) battling over many books,
allowing some in for awhile then rejected them and accepting others,
fighting over who wrote what on those books that the authorship was
questionable even then, on and on.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
10 Jan 2007 12:25:55 PM |
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Jude + Alexander wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1168432916.148099.29250@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Jude ** Alexander wrote:
"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:%AKoh.118524$rv4.16819@edtnps90...
"Bible Believer" <> wrote in message
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar.
It's like you said, clown, you believe.
That makes you a simple minded religionist. You can take a bible put
together by a PAGAN ROMAN EMPEROR, and rather than have to think you
merrily
accept it.
That does not make you a christian, it makes you a LAZY FUCKING
RELIGIONIST!!
Perhaps "Bible Believer" should educate himself a bit:
Between Jesus' life and the year 313, the church went through many
changes. ...
(snip)
This all seems true, although it places no barrier to the idea that
Jesus and his apostles taught nothing in particular and that the first
generation didn't care about doctrine. (This of course is not so --
what other subject obsesses John, Paul and the Fathers? -- and seems
ridiculous for a group that defines itself by ideology).
But surely the person you seek to educate is the troll currently
calling himself 'Zadok', not 'Bible believer'. Your post contradicts
the former, not the latter? Or have I misunderstood.
Yes. I don't agree with all of Zadok's sayings but I am definately sure
that Dave is full of ignorance.
Um.
Final word from me on this subject with you (you can have the last word) is
that the canonization process is so flawed that it can bring one to tears
and also to a deep level of frustration in the understanding that so many
people follow like blind sheep in complete trust of perhaps of hundreds or
so mortal men's 300 year battle to have what we call today the unquestioned
"word of God" in the New Testament form. I HOPE you understand all the
incredible nuances of what highly likely went on during those years when men
were fighting for "their" (according to their long standing acceptance of
that book) vs. "another's" book(same reason) battling over many books,
allowing some in for awhile then rejected them and accepting others,
fighting over who wrote what on those books that the authorship was
questionable even then, on and on.
I certainly understand the process in a very great degree of detail
(which seems to be unusual among posters). But I don't think that this
is a good description of it. The idea of arbitrary selection is simply
not on the table in that period.
If the immense claims of Christianity are true, then we need hardly
complain if God used men to compile a handbook rather than dropping one
from the sky, particularly since any communication with men must use
the imprecise tool of language (and which language is not then open to
the same objections?). If we do not, then frankly I don't see the
point in disputing that the works of the founders of the religion were
preserved, transmitted and reverenced, but that it took them a while to
sort out the last few. What else would one expect?
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
11 Jan 2007 02:28:56 PM |
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<roger_pearse> wrote in message
If the immense claims of Christianity are true, then we need hardly
complain if God used men to compile a handbook rather than dropping one
from the sky, particularly since any communication with men must use
the imprecise tool of language (and which language is not then open to
the same objections?). If we do not, then frankly I don't see the
point in disputing that the works of the founders of the religion were
preserved, transmitted and reverenced, but that it took them a while to
sort out the last few. What else would one expect?
And that is the problem with your whole idiotic view Roger. You sum it up in
line one, IF the immense claims of christianity are true!!
But that puts the onus on you to prove those immense claims are true.
Otherwise your founders are nothing but followers of Saulus (Paul) the
apostate.
Oh, and all the best.
Smile.
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
10 Jan 2007 01:39:42 PM |
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wrote:
Jude + Alexander wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1168432916.148099.29250@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Jude ** Alexander wrote:
"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:%AKoh.118524$rv4.16819@edtnps90...
"Bible Believer" <> wrote in message
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar.
It's like you said, clown, you believe.
That makes you a simple minded religionist. You can take a bible put
together by a PAGAN ROMAN EMPEROR, and rather than have to think you
merrily
accept it.
That does not make you a christian, it makes you a LAZY FUCKING
RELIGIONIST!!
Perhaps "Bible Believer" should educate himself a bit:
Between Jesus' life and the year 313, the church went through many
changes. ...
(snip)
This all seems true, although it places no barrier to the idea that
Jesus and his apostles taught nothing in particular and that the first
generation didn't care about doctrine. (This of course is not so --
what other subject obsesses John, Paul and the Fathers? -- and seems
ridiculous for a group that defines itself by ideology).
But surely the person you seek to educate is the troll currently
calling himself 'Zadok', not 'Bible believer'. Your post contradicts
the former, not the latter? Or have I misunderstood.
Yes. I don't agree with all of Zadok's sayings but I am definately sure
that Dave is full of ignorance.
Um.
Final word from me on this subject with you (you can have the last word) is
that the canonization process is so flawed that it can bring one to tears
and also to a deep level of frustration in the understanding that so many
people follow like blind sheep in complete trust of perhaps of hundreds or
so mortal men's 300 year battle to have what we call today the unquestioned
"word of God" in the New Testament form. I HOPE you understand all the
incredible nuances of what highly likely went on during those years when men
were fighting for "their" (according to their long standing acceptance of
that book) vs. "another's" book(same reason) battling over many books,
allowing some in for awhile then rejected them and accepting others,
fighting over who wrote what on those books that the authorship was
questionable even then, on and on.
I certainly understand the process in a very great degree of detail
(which seems to be unusual among posters). But I don't think that this
is a good description of it. The idea of arbitrary selection is simply
not on the table in that period.
If the immense claims of Christianity are true, then we need hardly
complain if God used men to compile a handbook rather than dropping one
from the sky, particularly since any communication with men must use
the imprecise tool of language (and which language is not then open to
the same objections?). If we do not, then frankly I don't see the
point in disputing that the works of the founders of the religion were
preserved, transmitted and reverenced, but that it took them a while to
sort out the last few. What else would one expect?
All the best,
Roger Pearse
The whole issue of the veracity and value of the Canon of scripture
generally fails to take into account the understanding, where by
believers believe that the Holy Spirit was involved in the process from
the start. Men wrote as they were moved by the Spirit of God. Even so
the Spirit still moves, using the Scriptures to lay bare the hidden
secrets of men's hearts yet today.
The main higher criticism of the Scriptures often comes down to the
observation, that they were ahead of their times. These men authors
could not possibly have understood what they were writing a century or
two before some of these issues were recognized by history. The
critics then determine that there was no way that they were written
when the Bible claims they were written. Is it possible that the Holy
Spirit who knows the future as well as the past, moved these men to
write pertinent scriptures that we still find currently applicable.
Using the basis of the higher critics, these scripture had to have been
written it the last half of the 20th Century.
The Holy Spirit was involved even in the 300 year process of what books
were finally installed in the canon, when several hundred men argued
for their favorite inclosure, and against others. Or do we have a God,
and a Holy Spirit, that had to stay in an upper room with a few
disciples at Pentecost. No we understand that God is actively working
even yet to apply the scriptures to the lives of believers yet today.
So most certainly, we can believe that the Scripture are valid, and
True, if for no other reason, the Holy Spirit still endorses them by
using them in out lives.
If we resist the Holy Spirit, it is not the Scriptures that have
changed, nor God.
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bible Believer" |
|
| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
10 Jan 2007 04:57:53 PM |
|
|
On 10 Jan 2007 11:39:42 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> claimed:
The whole issue of the veracity and value of the Canon of scripture
It was more of a process of recognition, not selection.
That's why books like Revelation were included, even
over great objection. It was recognized by the majority
through time, as being Scripture. The four Gospels,
for another example, are verified by a very early quote.
People think they know it all today. But all they really do,
is pretend that people were stupid back then and they
pretend that they're oh so smart today. The reality is,
that the closer you get to the time of an event, the more
accurate you're going to be. They had more documents
still in existence, such as quotes of early, early Christians.
--
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar. When people claim that
this or that in the Bible isn't God's word,
what they are doing is trying to set themselves
up as judge and jury of what God said to man
and I would rather believe God, than believe
that you are some divine being who is here
to tell us what God has to say. That role
was already taken by Jesus. So I'm sorry,
but you lose and you have nothing by which
you can convince me otherwise! And if you
don't like what the Bible says, then get a
new god. But do not pretend to be a Christian!
.
|
|
|
| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
11 Jan 2007 01:39:33 AM |
|
|
Bible Believer wrote:
On 10 Jan 2007 11:39:42 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> claimed:
The whole issue of the veracity and value of the Canon of scripture
It was more of a process of recognition, not selection.
That's why books like Revelation were included, even
over great objection. It was recognized by the majority
through time, as being Scripture. The four Gospels,
for another example, are verified by a very early quote.
People think they know it all today. But all they really do,
is pretend that people were stupid back then and they
pretend that they're oh so smart today. The reality is,
that the closer you get to the time of an event, the more
accurate you're going to be. They had more documents
still in existence, such as quotes of early, early Christians.
--
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar. When people claim that
this or that in the Bible isn't God's word,
what they are doing is trying to set themselves
up as judge and jury of what God said to man
and I would rather believe God, than believe
that you are some divine being who is here
to tell us what God has to say. That role
was already taken by Jesus. So I'm sorry,
but you lose and you have nothing by which
you can convince me otherwise! And if you
don't like what the Bible says, then get a
new god. But do not pretend to be a Christian!
IAWTP!
Dave, so often it seems that those who oppose the Word, refer back to
the Word, as it is the only reference scripture they have. There has
to be some Divine humor involved in this!
If they would stop pretending to be Christians, it would seem to be
easier for them to deny God, than to be constantly having to adjust
their proclamation of truth as they see it. I suppose there is an
element though, that they figure they can fly under our radar, and
appear as friendly supporters, when in actuality, they are not of us.
These are of course old strategies of the enemy of our soul. Some
things never change, and even those now who claim to be so smart, and
independent of thought, are still his slaves.
The thing that is trully amazing to me, is how pertinent the Word of
God still is, in these present conversations. This is the clearest
evidence, that God is still speaking through His Word. There is not one
arguement, or contrary individual who is not revealed by the Light of
the Scripture. It is trully an amazing Book!
Satan understands that the Book, is central to our Faith, and he will
not cease to attempt to undermine the credentials of the Bible. The
Word is attack on every level, from every direction, but the Word still
stands and is not moved. We also should not be moved by those who
would attack the Word, for we are the evidence of God's Word, written
in tablets of Flesh, even our hearts of Faith. And even this Satan
attacks continually. We should not grow weary in well doing, for
greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the World.
I appreciate your faithfulness, and your endurance! I would encourage
you in the Love of Christ, that He is very near, and will uphold you.
Don't let your heart be troubled by those who assault you. They will
have their day before the King of Glory. Now you are still in the
Race. Run the Race well. Know that we who love God, and His Son Jesus
Christ put no stock in anything that the enemy says about us! That
includes you, so be encouraged in Christ!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.
|
|
|
| User: "r m rm@hotmailDOTcom" |
|
| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
11 Jan 2007 10:41:11 AM |
|
|
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168501173.800327.80430@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Bible Believer wrote:
On 10 Jan 2007 11:39:42 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> claimed:
The whole issue of the veracity and value of the Canon of scripture
It was more of a process of recognition, not selection.
That's why books like Revelation were included, even
over great objection. It was recognized by the majority
through time, as being Scripture. The four Gospels,
for another example, are verified by a very early quote.
People think they know it all today. But all they really do,
is pretend that people were stupid back then and they
pretend that they're oh so smart today. The reality is,
that the closer you get to the time of an event, the more
accurate you're going to be. They had more documents
still in existence, such as quotes of early, early Christians.
--
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar. When people claim that
this or that in the Bible isn't God's word,
what they are doing is trying to set themselves
up as judge and jury of what God said to man
and I would rather believe God, than believe
that you are some divine being who is here
to tell us what God has to say. That role
was already taken by Jesus. So I'm sorry,
but you lose and you have nothing by which
you can convince me otherwise! And if you
don't like what the Bible says, then get a
new god. But do not pretend to be a Christian!
IAWTP!
Dave, so often it seems that those who oppose the Word, refer back to
the Word, as it is the only reference scripture they have. There has
to be some Divine humor involved in this!
If they would stop pretending to be Christians, it would seem to be
easier for them to deny God, than to be constantly having to adjust
their proclamation of truth as they see it. I suppose there is an
element though, that they figure they can fly under our radar, and
appear as friendly supporters, when in actuality, they are not of us.
These are of course old strategies of the enemy of our soul. Some
things never change, and even those now who claim to be so smart, and
independent of thought, are still his slaves.
The thing that is trully amazing to me, is how pertinent the Word of
God still is, in these present conversations. This is the clearest
evidence, that God is still speaking through His Word. There is not one
arguement, or contrary individual who is not revealed by the Light of
the Scripture. It is trully an amazing Book!
Satan understands that the Book, is central to our Faith, ...
Bible centricity must never be.
Heb 1:1-2
Joh 5:59
Col 1:15-18.
... and he will
not cease to attempt to undermine the credentials of the Bible. The
Word is attack on every level, from every direction, but the Word still
stands and is not moved. We also should not be moved by those who
would attack the Word, for we are the evidence of God's Word, written
in tablets of Flesh, even our hearts of Faith. And even this Satan
attacks continually. We should not grow weary in well doing, for
greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the World.
I appreciate your faithfulness, and your endurance! I would encourage
you in the Love of Christ, that He is very near, and will uphold you.
Don't let your heart be troubled by those who assault you. They will
have their day before the King of Glory. Now you are still in the
Race. Run the Race well. Know that we who love God, and His Son Jesus
Christ put no stock in anything that the enemy says about us! That
includes you, so be encouraged in Christ!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.
|
|
|
| User: "r m rm@hotmailDOTcom" |
|
| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
11 Jan 2007 10:52:34 AM |
|
|
"r m" <rm@hotmailDOTcom> wrote in message
news:45a668a3$0$9772$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168501173.800327.80430@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Bible Believer wrote:
On 10 Jan 2007 11:39:42 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> claimed:
The whole issue of the veracity and value of the Canon of scripture
It was more of a process of recognition, not selection.
That's why books like Revelation were included, even
over great objection. It was recognized by the majority
through time, as being Scripture. The four Gospels,
for another example, are verified by a very early quote.
People think they know it all today. But all they really do,
is pretend that people were stupid back then and they
pretend that they're oh so smart today. The reality is,
that the closer you get to the time of an event, the more
accurate you're going to be. They had more documents
still in existence, such as quotes of early, early Christians.
--
I believe the Bible, period! If you don't,
that's up to you. But do not expect me to
consider your point of view valid. I am a
Christian and being a Christian means not
calling God a liar. When people claim that
this or that in the Bible isn't God's word,
what they are doing is trying to set themselves
up as judge and jury of what God said to man
and I would rather believe God, than believe
that you are some divine being who is here
to tell us what God has to say. That role
was already taken by Jesus. So I'm sorry,
but you lose and you have nothing by which
you can convince me otherwise! And if you
don't like what the Bible says, then get a
new god. But do not pretend to be a Christian!
IAWTP!
Dave, so often it seems that those who oppose the Word, refer back to
the Word, as it is the only reference scripture they have. There has
to be some Divine humor involved in this!
If they would stop pretending to be Christians, it would seem to be
easier for them to deny God, than to be constantly having to adjust
their proclamation of truth as they see it. I suppose there is an
element though, that they figure they can fly under our radar, and
appear as friendly supporters, when in actuality, they are not of us.
These are of course old strategies of the enemy of our soul. Some
things never change, and even those now who claim to be so smart, and
independent of thought, are still his slaves.
The thing that is trully amazing to me, is how pertinent the Word of
God still is, in these present conversations. This is the clearest
evidence, that God is still speaking through His Word. There is not one
arguement, or contrary individual who is not revealed by the Light of
the Scripture. It is trully an amazing Book!
Satan understands that the Book, is central to our Faith, ...
Bible centricity must never be.
Heb 1:1-2
Joh 5:59
Erratum: Joh 5:39-40.
Col 1:15-18.
... and he will
not cease to attempt to undermine the credentials of the Bible. The
Word is attack on every level, from every direction, but the Word still
stands and is not moved. We also should not be moved by those who
would attack the Word, for we are the evidence of God's Word, written
in tablets of Flesh, even our hearts of Faith. And even this Satan
attacks continually. We should not grow weary in well doing, for
greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the World.
I appreciate your faithfulness, and your endurance! I would encourage
you in the Love of Christ, that He is very near, and will uphold you.
Don't let your heart be troubled by those who assault you. They will
have their day before the King of Glory. Now you are still in the
Race. Run the Race well. Know that we who love God, and His Son Jesus
Christ put no stock in anything that the enemy says about us! That
includes you, so be encouraged in Christ!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jude + Alexander" |
|
| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
11 Jan 2007 09:11:49 AM |
|
|
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168501173.800327.80430@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Bible Believer wrote:
On 10 Jan 2007 11:39:42 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> claimed:
The thing that is trully amazing to me, is how pertinent the Word of
God still is, in these present conversations. This is the clearest
evidence, that God is still speaking through His Word. There is not one
arguement, or contrary individual who is not revealed by the Light of
the Scripture. It is trully an amazing Book!
Satan understands that the Book, is central to our Faith, and he will
not cease to attempt to undermine the credentials of the Bible.
I feel sorry for people who think Satan is around every corner. It's so sad
and PARANOID. A perfect enemy in which to project on ALL opponents to ANY
ignorance or error.
Ohhhhhhh, and I thought JESUS and GOd were the CENTER of your faith! Oh
silly me!
Explain why there are so many numerical mistakes in the "word of God."
Can't "God" add?
Tell me why there are so many sequential mistakes in the "word of God."
Can't "God" keep an account straight?
Tell me why "God" contradicts Himself so often? For example, in one place
in the bible, "God" says he NEVER ordered animal sacrifice and another it is
OBVIOUS that "God" did. This is just ONE example of the many.
.
|
|
|
| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
11 Jan 2007 12:04:46 PM |
|
|
Jude + Alexander wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168501173.800327.80430@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Bible Believer wrote:
On 10 Jan 2007 11:39:42 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> claimed:
The thing that is trully amazing to me, is how pertinent the Word of
God still is, in these present conversations. This is the clearest
evidence, that God is still speaking through His Word. There is not one
arguement, or contrary individual who is not revealed by the Light of
the Scripture. It is trully an amazing Book!
Satan understands that the Book, is central to our Faith, and he will
not cease to attempt to undermine the credentials of the Bible.
I feel sorry for people who think Satan is around every corner. It's so sad
and PARANOID. A perfect enemy in which to project on ALL opponents to ANY
ignorance or error.
Ohhhhhhh, and I thought JESUS and GOd were the CENTER of your faith! Oh
silly me!
Explain why there are so many numerical mistakes in the "word of God."
Can't "God" add?
Tell me why there are so many sequential mistakes in the "word of God."
Can't "God" keep an account straight?
Tell me why "God" contradicts Himself so often? For example, in one place
in the bible, "God" says he NEVER ordered animal sacrifice and another it is
OBVIOUS that "God" did. This is just ONE example of the many.
So he who is created, thinks that he can question the integrity of the
Creator, because he thinks that he has tripped up God over the words
that He has revealed to man. Yet, this same man then claims to believe
in God, who is revealed by His Word. How foolish is this man whose
God can be comprehended by the mind of the created brain. He thinks
that he knows all things, and in fact he knows nothing about the
Creator!
If he were trully wise, he would use his great mind to consider God,
and understand that He is one God, and that there is no confusion in
His Word. He would set about to trully see and understand the Love of
God, that is beyond understanding, instead of stumbling at the counting
of numbers, the figuring of events, and the misunderstandings of what
God says about Himself. This man would be wise to cherish the
knowledge of God, instead of cherishing the misunderstanding of God.
He is no fool who delights in the overwhelming vision of God, and
understands that God is beyond our understanding. He is a fool if he
thinks that having seen a glimpse of God, that he understands Him who
knows every atom of the universe and maintain all things by His Word.
God who chose to use His creation, man, to record His Word, knew that
fallen man would introduce errors into that recording, also knows that
He by His Holy Spirit, would quicken that word to the hearts of those
who would believe. For those who will not believe, it is left a
mystery that they will not receive as the Word of God, they will not
understand, and when they say they are so smart and understand all
mysteries, they infact understand nothing, but are left standing in
outer darkness. If they trip over the Word of God, it is because they
are walking in Darkness!
We believe that He is Light, and in Him there is no darkness. We
believe that those who believe, will come to Him in the Light, and then
we will know as we are known. Those who do not believe, will not come
to Him in the Light, but they choose to stand in darkness. Those who
stand in darkness, do not Love God, neither do they know Him. Those
that do believe, know Him, know that He is, and He is the rewarder of
them who diligently seek Him! He is Glorious, and His Ways are beyond
our ways! Praise God! Hallelujah!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jude + Alexander" |
|
| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
11 Jan 2007 12:10:19 PM |
|
|
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168538686.590764.273040@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Jude + Alexander wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168501173.800327.80430@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Bible Believer wrote:
On 10 Jan 2007 11:39:42 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> claimed:
The thing that is trully amazing to me, is how pertinent the Word of
God still is, in these present conversations. This is the clearest
evidence, that God is still speaking through His Word. There is not one
arguement, or contrary individual who is not revealed by the Light of
the Scripture. It is trully an amazing Book!
Satan understands that the Book, is central to our Faith, and he will
not cease to attempt to undermine the credentials of the Bible.
I feel sorry for people who think Satan is around every corner. It's so
sad
and PARANOID. A perfect enemy in which to project on ALL opponents to
ANY
ignorance or error.
Ohhhhhhh, and I thought JESUS and GOd were the CENTER of your faith! Oh
silly me!
Explain why there are so many numerical mistakes in the "word of God."
Can't "God" add?
Tell me why there are so many sequential mistakes in the "word of God."
Can't "God" keep an account straight?
Tell me why "God" contradicts Himself so often? For example, in one
place
in the bible, "God" says he NEVER ordered animal sacrifice and another it
is
OBVIOUS that "God" did. This is just ONE example of the many.
So he who is created, thinks that he can question the integrity of the
Creator, because he thinks that he has tripped up God over the words
that He has revealed to man. Yet, this same man then claims to believe
in God, who is revealed by His Word. How foolish is this man whose
God can be comprehended by the mind of the created brain. He thinks
that he knows all things, and in fact he knows nothing about the
Creator!
If he were trully wise, he would use his great mind to consider God,
and understand that He is one God, and that there is no confusion in
His Word. He would set about to trully see and understand the Love of
God, that is beyond understanding, instead of stumbling at the counting
of numbers, the figuring of events, and the misunderstandings of what
God says about Himself. This man would be wise to cherish the
knowledge of God, instead of cherishing the misunderstanding of God.
He is no fool who delights in the overwhelming vision of God, and
understands that God is beyond our understanding. He is a fool if he
thinks that having seen a glimpse of God, that he understands Him who
knows every atom of the universe and maintain all things by His Word.
God who chose to use His creation, man, to record His Word, knew that
fallen man would introduce errors into that recording, also knows that
He by His Holy Spirit, would quicken that word to the hearts of those
who would believe. For those who will not believe, it is left a
mystery that they will not receive as the Word of God, they will not
understand, and when they say they are so smart and understand all
mysteries, they infact understand nothing, but are left standing in
outer darkness. If they trip over the Word of God, it is because they
are walking in Darkness!
We believe that He is Light, and in Him there is no darkness. We
believe that those who believe, will come to Him in the Light, and then
we will know as we are known. Those who do not believe, will not come
to Him in the Light, but they choose to stand in darkness. Those who
stand in darkness, do not Love God, neither do they know Him. Those
that do believe, know Him, know that He is, and He is the rewarder of
them who diligently seek Him! He is Glorious, and His Ways are beyond
our ways! Praise God! Hallelujah!
Rather than give an answer for OBVIOUS mistakes in the bible, you rattle on
and blah blah blah accuse ME of thinking my understanding is beyond God!
THAT is a freaking joke if I ever heard one. The ERRORS are there IN BLACK
AND WHITE. In one account something is 700 and in another account of the
same story that 700 is 7,000. Oops, did "God" make a mistake? Is there an
error in THE book, which according to you reflects God's will perfectly and
is central to your faith? Yes, there ARE errors and there are hundreds of
them that have nothing to do with faith questions and there are many more
that DO have something to do with faith questions.
You can't answer so you just blather with bluster.
.
|
|
|
| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
11 Jan 2007 12:43:58 PM |
|
|
Jude + Alexander wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168538686.590764.273040@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Jude + Alexander wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168501173.800327.80430@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Bible Believer wrote:
On 10 Jan 2007 11:39:42 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> claimed:
The thing that is trully amazing to me, is how pertinent the Word of
God still is, in these present conversations. This is the clearest
evidence, that God is still speaking through His Word. There is not one
arguement, or contrary individual who is not revealed by the Light of
the Scripture. It is trully an amazing Book!
Satan understands that the Book, is central to our Faith, and he will
not cease to attempt to undermine the credentials of the Bible.
I feel sorry for people who think Satan is around every corner. It's so
sad
and PARANOID. A perfect enemy in which to project on ALL opponents to
ANY
ignorance or error.
Ohhhhhhh, and I thought JESUS and GOd were the CENTER of your faith! Oh
silly me!
Explain why there are so many numerical mistakes in the "word of God."
Can't "God" add?
Tell me why there are so many sequential mistakes in the "word of God."
Can't "God" keep an account straight?
Tell me why "God" contradicts Himself so often? For example, in one
place
in the bible, "God" says he NEVER ordered animal sacrifice and another it
is
OBVIOUS that "God" did. This is just ONE example of the many.
So he who is created, thinks that he can question the integrity of the
Creator, because he thinks that he has tripped up God over the words
that He has revealed to man. Yet, this same man then claims to believe
in God, who is revealed by His Word. How foolish is this man whose
God can be comprehended by the mind of the created brain. He thinks
that he knows all things, and in fact he knows nothing about the
Creator!
If he were trully wise, he would use his great mind to consider God,
and understand that He is one God, and that there is no confusion in
His Word. He would set about to trully see and understand the Love of
God, that is beyond understanding, instead of stumbling at the counting
of numbers, the figuring of events, and the misunderstandings of what
God says about Himself. This man would be wise to cherish the
knowledge of God, instead of cherishing the misunderstanding of God.
He is no fool who delights in the overwhelming vision of God, and
understands that God is beyond our understanding. He is a fool if he
thinks that having seen a glimpse of God, that he understands Him who
knows every atom of the universe and maintain all things by His Word.
God who chose to use His creation, man, to record His Word, knew that
fallen man would introduce errors into that recording, also knows that
He by His Holy Spirit, would quicken that word to the hearts of those
who would believe. For those who will not believe, it is left a
mystery that they will not receive as the Word of God, they will not
understand, and when they say they are so smart and understand all
mysteries, they infact understand nothing, but are left standing in
outer darkness. If they trip over the Word of God, it is because they
are walking in Darkness!
We believe that He is Light, and in Him there is no darkness. We
believe that those who believe, will come to Him in the Light, and then
we will know as we are known. Those who do not believe, will not come
to Him in the Light, but they choose to stand in darkness. Those who
stand in darkness, do not Love God, neither do they know Him. Those
that do believe, know Him, know that He is, and He is the rewarder of
them who diligently seek Him! He is Glorious, and His Ways are beyond
our ways! Praise God! Hallelujah!
Rather than give an answer for OBVIOUS mistakes in the bible, you rattle on
and blah blah blah accuse ME of thinking my understanding is beyond God!
THAT is a freaking joke if I ever heard one. The ERRORS are there IN BLACK
AND WHITE. In one account something is 700 and in another account of the
same story that 700 is 7,000. Oops, did "God" make a mistake? Is there an
error in THE book, which according to you reflects God's will perfectly and
is central to your faith? Yes, there ARE errors and there are hundreds of
them that have nothing to do with faith questions and there are many more
that DO have something to do with faith questions.
You can't answer so you just blather with bluster.
You let your understanding of a few perceived errors trip you up over
who God is, and how He has chosen to reveal Himself. You are the
Loser!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.
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| User: "Jude + Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: OWD TRIES TO ESTABLISH STANDARD FOR PERSECUTING BELIEVERS |
11 Jan 2007 05:45:10 PM |
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"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168541038.125979.180200@o58g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Jude + Alexander wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168538686.590764.273040@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Jude + Alexander wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168501173.800327.80430@77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Bible Believer wrote:
On 10 Jan 2007 11:39:42 -0800, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> claimed:
You can't answer so you just blather with bluster.
You let your understanding of a few perceived errors trip you up over
who God is, and how He has chosen to reveal Himself. You are the
Loser!
Again, all you have is a lame flame instead of any answers.
Below is about 1/4 or less of what I have as far as errors within the bible:
THE BIBLE
Problems between Old Testament Texts
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Genesis, Chapter 1
"20": And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving
creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open
firmament of heaven. "21": And God created great whales, and every living
creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their
kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis, Chapter 2
"19": And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field,
and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would
call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the
name thereof.
(Were fowl created from water or from earth? Also, was it about this time
that God created the dinosaurs and brought them before Adam to name?)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DID PEOPLE CALL UPON THE NAME OF GOD?
Genesis, Chapter 4
"26": And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name
Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
Genesis, Chapter 12
"8": And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and
pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there
he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
Genesis, Chapter 22
"14": And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said
to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Genesis, Chapter 26
"25": And he builded an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD
and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac's servants digged a well.
(From Seth to Isaac, men call upon the name of the Lord. It could very well
be that the name referred to is "God Almighty," for most of these people
except in the case of Abraham who actually calls a place "Jehovah will
provide," therefore minially Abraham knew God's name prior to Moses.)
Exodus, Chapter 6
"2": And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: "3": And I
appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God
Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
(According to Moses, he was the first to know God's name Jehovah. This is
strange, indeed, since Moses is said to the ONLY author of the Talmud, the
first 5 books of the OT. If he wrote Genesis, why would he write down that
Abraham named a place Jehovah-jireh and also claim to be the first to know
God's name, Jehovah, when he lived after Abraham.)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Genesis, Chapter 5
"32": And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and
Japheth.
(At the age 500, either Noah started having children or had 3 by that time,
Shem being the oldest. So, if Noah starting having children in his 500th
year and Shem would be a just born babe and be 0 y/o. If Noah had all three
by the time he was 500, then Shem could be no younger than 2 [Ham being 1
y/o and Japheth just being born 0 y/o]. So, there is a possible two year
difference, depending on how you interpret verse 32.
Genesis, Chapter 7
"11": In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the
seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the
great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
(When Noah was 600, Shem was 100 [or 102] at the time of the flood.)
Genesis, Chapter 11
"10": These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and
begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
(2 years after the flood Noah would be 602 and Shem would have been
102 [or 104]).
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Genesis, Chapter 10
"1": Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and
Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. "2": The sons of
Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and
Tiras. "3": And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
"4": And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
"5": By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; EVERY
ONE AFTER HIS TONGUE, ...
"20": These are the sons of Ham, after their families, AFTER THEIR TONGUES,
in their countries, and in their nations.
"31": These are the sons of Shem, after their families, AFTER THEIR
TONGUES, in their lands, After their nations. "32": These are the families
of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these
were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
Genesis, Chapter 11
"1": And the whole earth was of ONE LANGUAGE, and of ONE SPEECH.
(It is possible that Chapter 11 is a retro-type of telling a story. In
other words, Chapter 10 could be told with one fact in mind and that would
be to list the nations that came from the people of the ark with their
EVENTUAL individual languages, and then writing Chapter 11 to explain the
way in which they got their individual language. I, personally find that
stretching plausibility but it's an argument that can't completely be throw
out as totally unfeasible. However, would Ham and Shem born from the same
father and being the children of Israel have different languages? The
answer to that is a resounding "NO.")
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HOW OLD WAS ABRAM WHEN HE LEFT HARAN?
Genesis, Chapter 11
"26": And Terah lived SEVENTY YEARS, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
(Terah had Abram, Nahor & Haran by age 70.)
Genesis, Chapter 11,
"31": And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son,
and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth
with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they
came unto Haran, and dwelt there. "32": And the days of Terah were TWO
HUNDRED AND FIVE YEARS: and Terah died in Haran.
(205-70=135 years that Terah lived in Haran.)
Genesis, Chapter 12
"1": Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from
thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
"2": And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make
thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: "3": And I will bless them
that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all
families of the earth be blessed. "4": So Abram departed, as the LORD had
spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was SEVENTY AND FIVE
YEARS old when he departed out of Haran.
(Abram left Haran after Terah died. Abram is said to be 75 at that time of
departure, which means that in 135 years of living in Haran, Abram became
younger. If by 70 years old, Terah had Abram, Nahor & Haran and let's says
they were the minimum of age they could be; babe, 1 and 2 years old [Abram
being the oldest], then after 135 years in Terah, Abram had to be 137 or
greater in years old. Yet the bible says Abram was 75 years
old.)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DID GOD SAY TO DO BURNT OFFERINGS OR NOT?
Genesis, Chapter 15
"8": And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
"9": And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she
goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and
a young pigeon.
Exodus, Chapter 20
"22": And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of
Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. "23": Ye shall
not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of
gold. "24": An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice
thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine
oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will
bless thee.
Leviticus, Chapter 1 (Complete Chapter)
"1": And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the
tabernacle of the congregation, saying, "2": Speak unto the children of
Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the
LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of
the flock. "3": If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him
offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at
the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. "4": And he
shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be
accepted for him to make atonement for him. "5": And he shall kill the
bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the
blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door
of the tabernacle of the congregation. "6": And he shall flay the burnt
offering, and cut it into his pieces. "7": And the sons of Aaron the priest
shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire: "8":
And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat,
in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar: "9": But
his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn
all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a
sweet savour unto the LORD. "10": And if his offering be of the flocks,
namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring
it a male without blemish. "11": And he shall kill it on the side of the
altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall
sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar. "12": And he shall cut it
into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in
order on the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar: "13": But he
shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring
it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering
made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. "14": And if the burnt
sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his
offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons. "15": And the priest shall
bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar;
and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar: "16": And
he shall pluck away his crop with his feathers, and cast it beside the altar
on the east part, by the place of the ashes: "17": And he shall cleave it
with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest
shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a
burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Numbers, Chapter 28
"1": And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, "2": Command the children of
Israel, and say unto them, My offering, and my bread for my sacrifices made
by fire, for a sweet savour unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in
their due season. "3": And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering
made by fire which ye shall offer unto the LORD; two lambs of the first year
without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering. "4": The one lamb
shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at
even; "5": And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering,
mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil. "6": It is a continual
burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savour, a
sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD. "7": And the drink offering thereof
shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt
thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.
"8": And the other lamb shalt thou offer at even: as the meat offering of
the morning, and as the drink offering thereof, thou shalt offer it, a
sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. "9": And on the
sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of
flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:
"10": This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual
burnt offering, and his drink offering. "11": And in the beginnings of your
months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks,
and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot; "12": And three
tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one bullock;
and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one
ram; "13": And a several tenth deal of flour mingled with oil for a meat
offering unto one lamb; for a burnt offering of a sweet savour, a sacrifice
made by fire unto the LORD. "14": And their drink offerings shall be half an
hin of wine unto a bullock, and the third part of an hin unto a ram, and a
fourth part of an hin unto a lamb: this is the burnt offering of every month
throughout the months of the year. "15": And one kid of the goats for a sin
offering unto the LORD shall be offered, beside the continual burnt
offering, and his drink offering. "16": And in the fourteenth day of the
first month is the passover of the LORD. "17": And in the fifteenth day of
this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. "18":
In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of
servile work therein: "19": But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for
a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven
lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish: "20": And
their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals
shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram; "21": A several
tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs:
"22": And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you. "23":
Ye shall offer these beside the burnt offering in the morning, which is for
a continual burnt offering. "24": After this manner ye shall offer daily,
throughout the seven days, the meat of the sacrifice made by fire, of a
sweet savour unto the LORD: it shall be offered beside the continual burnt
offering, and his drink offering. "25": And on the seventh day ye shall have
an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work. "26": Also in the day of
the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the LORD, after your
weeks be out, ye shall
have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: "27": But ye shall
offer the burnt offering for a sweet savour unto the LORD; two young
bullocks, one ram, seven lambs of the first year; "28": And their meat
offering of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals unto one bullock, two
tenth deals unto one ram, "29": A several tenth deal unto one lamb,
throughout the seven lambs; "30": And one kid of the goats, to make an
atonement for you. "31": Ye shall offer them beside the continual burnt
offering, and his meat offering, (they shall be unto you without blemish)
and their drink offerings.
(God gives details for burnt offerings.)
Jeremiah, Chapter 7
"21": Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt
offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. "22": For I spake not unto
your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the
land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: "23": But this
thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and
ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded
you, that it may be well unto you.
(God says that He never commanded anyone concerning burnt offerings.)
Exodus, Chapter 29
"18" And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt
offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto
the LORD.
Exodus, Chapter 29
"36" And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for
atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an
atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
Leviticus, Chapter 1
"1": And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the
tabernacle of the congregation, saying, "2": Speak unto the children of
Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the
LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of
the flock. "3": If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him
offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at
the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. "4": And he
shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be
accepted for him to make atonement for him. "5": And he shall kill the
bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the
blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door
of the tabernacle of the congregation. "6": And he shall flay the burnt
offering, and cut it into his pieces. "7": And the sons of Aaron the priest
shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire: "8":
And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat,
in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar: "9": But
his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn
all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a
sweet savour unto the LORD. But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in
water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice,
an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Leviticus, Chapter 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there
shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and
ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the
LORD.
Psalms 50:13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
Isaiah, Chapter 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices
unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the
fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs,
or of he goats.
Jeremiah, Chapter 6
"20" To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet
cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your
sacrifices sweet unto me.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IS "KNOWING" YOUR HALF SISTER A SIN OR NOT?
Genesis, Chapter 17
"15": And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call
her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
Genesis, Chapter 20
"10": And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done
this thing? "11": And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of
God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. "12":
And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not
the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
Leviticus, Chapter 18
"9": The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of
thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their
nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
Leviticus, Chapter 20
"17": And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his
mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a
wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he
hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
Deuteronomy, Chapter 27
"22": Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father,
or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHO DID ABRAHAM BUY HIS BURIAL GRAVE FROM?
Genesis, Chapter 25
"8": Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man,
and full of years; and was gathered to his people. "9": And his sons Isaac
and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the
son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;
(The plot was bought from Ephron who was the son of Zohar, the Hittite.)
Genesis, Chapter 49
"29": And he (Jacob) charged them, and said unto them, I am to be gathered
unto my people: bury me with my fathers in the cave that is in the field of
Ephron the Hittite, "30": In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah,
which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the
field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a buryingplace.
Genesis, Chapter 50
"12": And his sons did unto him according as he commanded them: "13": For
his sons carried him into the land of Cana | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
