| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
11 Jun 2007 02:50:44 PM |
| Object: |
Passing of the Elements |
The Passing of the Elements: 2 Peter 3:10
By Don K. Preston
Thursday, 11 May 2006
"Peter, in 2 Peter 3, wrote of the passing of the 'elements'
of Old Covenant Israel. To negate the power of this
argument one must prove that Paul discussed the passing
of two different kinds of 'elements' and 'worlds'."
One of the key arguments offered against Covenant Eschatology
is Peter's statement in 2 Peter 3 that, "the elements will
melt with fervent heat". We are told that the elements are
the fundamental elements of material creation. Is this the
only interpretation of this verse? Were there other elements
of another heaven and earth that were predicted to pass in
Peter's near future?
Much could be said about this subject. For instance, it is
certainly relevant to show from Josephus that the Jews
referred to the Temple at Jerusalem as "heaven and earth".
However, I will reserve this study for another time.
This study will examine Peter's declaration that Paul also
wrote about the passing away of the elements of heaven
and earth (2 Peter 3:15-16).
My argument is simple: Paul wrote the same thing about
the passing of the "elements" of the world as did Peter
(2 Peter 3:15-16). But Paul, in discussing the passing
of "the elements of the world", wrote exclusively of the
passing away of the "elements" of Old Covenant Israel.
Therefore, Peter, in 2 Peter 3, wrote of the passing of
the "elements" of Old Covenant Israel.
Paul and the Elements
Paul certainly did write about the passing of the "elements"
(stoichea) of the world. But he never used the word to refer
to physical creation.
Galatians
Galatians is concerned with the superiority of the world of
Christ over the Mosaic World. Addressing his Jewish Christian
audience Paul reminds them of their condition under the Law,
"Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under
the elements of the world" (Galatians 4:3). It is important
to note that Paul speaks here of the elements of the world.
The word translated as world is from kosmos. It is
unfortunate that when this word is used in scripture most
people think it has to speak of the physical universe. It is
clear however, from this text and all others where Paul
speaks of the elements of the cosmos, that this is not
what the apostle had in mind.
He could not be speaking of material creation because he was
saying they had become free from the elements of the world.
If the "elements" refers to the material world Paul was saying
the Galatian brethren had become free from the physical world.
In verse 9 he continues: "But now, after you have known God,
or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to
the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again
to be in bondage?". The "elements" were the Old Covenant
mandates concerning feast days (4:10). Compare Paul's
statement about freedom and the exhortation not to be
enslaved again with Galatians 5:1-3. The thought is identical;
freedom was from the Old Covenant not the material creation.
The Galatian brethren had become free from those elements by
coming into Christ and becoming the spiritual seed of Abraham
(Galatians 3:26-29; 5:1-4). The system itself, however, that
world (kosmos) with its elements (4:3), was to be cast out for
persecuting the spiritual seed of Abraham (Galatians 4:22-32).
Thus, in Galatians we find the exact elements, no pun intended
as in 2 Peter 3. We find Paul speaking of the elements of
the world passing away. Yet his focus is on the passing
of the Old Covenant World of Israel.
Colossians
Just as in Galatians, Paul addresses the Old Covenant System
as the "world" and the doctrines of that system as the
"elements" of the world. He urges his readers: "Beware,
lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit,
according to the tradition of men, according to the basic
principles (stoichea) of the world (cosmos) and not according
to Christ".
Was Paul saying that man should not be deceived by earth,
wind, fire, or water? Clearly, he was urging his audience
not to be deceived by the doctrines of man.
These traditions of men and what traditions of men receive
more attention in scripture than the traditions of Old
Covenant Israel (Matthew 15?), were the doctrines concerning
"meats, drinks, new moons, and Sabbaths" (Colossians 2:16).
Thus, the elements of the world were the Old Covenant
commandments. The world (cosmos) was the Old Covenant
World.
In chapter 2:20 the apostle reminds them "if you died with
Christ from the basic principles (stoichea) of the world
(kosmos), why as though living in the world, do you subject
yourselves to regulations — do not touch, do not taste,
do not handle". There could not be a clearer definition of
"the elements of the world". They were the Old Covenant
laws concerning foods and clean and unclean things.
Notice the direct correlation between Galatians 4:10 and
Colossians 2:14-16. In Galatians the apostle says the
brethren were becoming entangled again in the "elements
of the world" and the specific example was their observance
of "days, months, seasons, and years" (v. 10). In Colossians
he warns his Gentile audience not to be judged in respect to
"festival, new moon or sabbaths". Bruce has effectively shown
that both references can refer to nothing but the Old Covenant
laws. There can be little doubt that the "elements of the
world" in these texts were the elements of the Old Covenant
world of Israel.
That "world" still existed because those feast days and
observances were still "a shadow of things that are about
to (mellonton) come" (Colossians 2:17). But Paul then says
the Old Covenant mandates — the elements — "all concern
things which are to perish with the using" (Colossians 2:22).
Here is an emphatic statement concerning the passing of the
"elements" and thus the "world" — of the Old Covenant.
Just as in Galatians — and 2 Peter 3 — we find the discussion
of the elements, the world, and the passing of the world.
Yet it is abundantly clear that for Paul, the passing of the
elements, and thus the destruction of the world, meant the
passing of the Old Covenant World. And remember, Peter
said that his discussion of the passing of the elements is
the same thing as what Paul said.
Hebrews 5:12-6:1-5
Assuming the Pauline authorship of Hebrews, this text agrees
perfectly with the idea that the elements of the passing world
were the doctrines of the Old Covenant.
The word of the beginning belonged to the world that the
Christians needed to leave behind (Hebrews 6:1), and go
on to the perfection of "the world to come" (Hebrews 6:5).
We thus have the passing of one world and the anticipation
of another. The Old World is the Old Covenant World of
Israel that anticipated and predicted the coming of the
Messiah — these predictions were part of the elements,
the first principles of Christ. The New World, the World
to come, was initiated by the passion of Jesus and his work
of atonement. The perfection of that atoning work would
be his parousia (Hebrews 9:28).
The first principles (elements) of Christ could not make one
perfect (Hebrews 6:1). But it was the Old Covenant that
could not make one perfect (Hebrews 7:11; 9:12-15; 10:1-4).
Therefore the first principles of Christ — the elements —
referred to the Old Covenant.
In Hebrews the Old Covenant "elements" were even then
"ready to vanish away" (Hebrews 8:13). Christ came at
"the end of age" (Hebrews 9:26). He came to do away
with the first principles (elements) of that Old World and
bring perfection, the New World. The Old "heaven and earth"
was being shaken so that the unshakable kingdom might
remain (Hebrews 12:25-28).
Hebrews then, agrees with Galatians and Colossians in
its usage of the word elements. It referred to the basic
doctrines of Old Covenant Israel. In Galatians, Colossians
and Hebrews the elements of that Old World (kosmos)
were in the process of, and were ready to vanish away.
Having observed all occurrences of the word "stoichea"
(elements), outside 2 Peter 3 we have seen that these
references have nothing to do with physical creation.
They refer exclusively to the basic doctrines and commands
of the Old Covenant World of Israel. In each of the texts
above the inspired writers predicted the passing of that
Old World.
Conclusion
Let me restate my argument: Paul wrote the same thing
about the passing of the "elements" of the world as did
Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16). But Paul, in discussing the passing
of the "elements" of the world, wrote exclusively of the
passing of the "elements" of Old Covenant Israel. Therefore,
Peter, in 2 Peter 3, wrote of the passing of the "elements"
of Old Covenant Israel.
To negate the power of this argument one must prove that
Paul discussed the passing of two different kinds of
"elements" and "worlds". Yet Paul, as shown above, when
discussing the passing of the elements of the world speaks
exclusively of the passing of the Old Covenant world.
The evidence presented in this brief article shows that
the focus of Peter's — and thus the Bible's — is Covenantal
and not Historical. Peter wrote just a few short years prior
to the fall of Jerusalem, the center of the Old Covenant
World. He and his readers were "looking for and hastening
the coming of the Day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:12). The Day
was at hand!
Peter's Day of the Lord, with the destruction of the elements,
came. As a result, believers in God today should not fear the
future. We should live lives of confidence and righteousness
as we dwell in the New Heavens and Earth of our Savior.
a) Josephus, Antiquities (William Whiston trans.,
Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1987) BK. 3, chap. 6:4-7;
chapt. 7:7, pp 86+
b) Paul's statement that the bondwoman and her son,
representative of the Old Covenant, was yet to be cast out
— for persecuting Christians — is prima fascia proof that
the Old Testament did not pass at the cross as is
traditionally maintained by many. Paul emphatically says
the Old Covenant people would be cast out for persecuting
Christians, the children of promise (Galatians 4:28-30).
This persecution patently did not occur prior to the cross.
Thus, Israel could not have been cut off at the cross.
c) F. F. Bruce, New International Greek Testament Commentary,
Galatians, (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1982) 206+.
d) For an excellent study showing that the first principles of
Hebrews 5:12; 6:1f were the Old Covenant elements see
Max King's series of articles in the Living Presence,
beginning Vol. 6, No. 1, August, 1995. Many other scholars,
not advocates of Covenant Eschatology, agree with this view.
See, for instance, F. F. Bruce, The Epistle to the Hebrews
(Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1964) 112+ says the impression
we get is that existing Jewish beliefs and practices were
used as a foundation on which to build Christian truth.
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
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| User: "®andy" |
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| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
12 Jun 2007 12:41:01 AM |
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2 Peter 3 plainly states it is the heavens and earth God made
by his word, with the land rising out of the water, which were
previously destroyed by the flood, and which now are, that
will be destroyed by fire. Why then does Dave have to
fabricate a filibuster to explain this?
Because the heavens and earth weren't destroyed by fire in
A.D. 70! Therefore, he MUST come up with a spiritualized
explanation!
--
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of
prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the saints. - Ephesians 6:18
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
12 Jun 2007 01:36:36 AM |
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On Jun 11, 11:41 pm, =AEandy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
2 Peter 3 plainly states it is the heavens and earth God made
by his word, with the land rising out of the water, which were
previously destroyed by the flood, and which now are, that
will be destroyed by fire. Why then does Dave have to
fabricate a filibuster to explain this? =20
Because the heavens and earth weren't destroyed by fire in
A.D. 70! Therefore, he MUST come up with a spiritualized
explanation!
--
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of
prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the saints. - Ephesians 6:18
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
=A92007www.pulpitfire.org
Randy, God told Adam and Eve that the day they sinned, they would
die! Now according to your reasoning, Adam and Eve physically and
literally died that very day, because that is what God said, and God
cannot lie, and of course we can not look for a spiritual
understanding of spiritual matters!
Dave, thanks, for your study of these matters!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
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| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
12 Jun 2007 12:15:56 PM |
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"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181630196.826218.260790@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
-Randy, God told Adam and Eve that the day they sinned, they would
-die! Now according to your reasoning, Adam and Eve physically and
-literally died that very day,
ROTFL!!!!
Of course they did, that was the first millennial day, Dumasso.
When He prophesied the seventh day in which the saints will reign for a
thousand years, (2 Pet 3:10, Rev 20:4-5, Heb 4:4,7), He also prophesied the
first six.
There AIN'T a 7th WITHOUT a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, & 6th.
The "last days" are the time of the Messiah, from His first coming to the
end of the millennial reign: "And it shall come to pass in the last days,
that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the
mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow
unto it" (Is 2:2).
And the 7th day is the day of the Lord, which begins with His coming,
includes the millennial reign, and ends with the consummation of judgment.
His,
--
Transliterated Greek text of 2 John 1:7 in which the present active
participle "ercomenon: is coming" is mistranslated in some Bibles as "is
come."
2Jo 1:7 oti polloi planoi exhlqon ei ton kosmon oi mh omologounte ihsoun
criston ercomenon en sarki outo estin o plano kai o anticristo
The literal translation is: "For many deceivers are entering into the world,
who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver
and an antichrist."
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.
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| User: "Suzanne" |
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| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
25 Aug 2007 01:16:20 AM |
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"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181630196.826218.260790@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 11, 11:41 pm, ®andy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
2 Peter 3 plainly states it is the heavens and earth God made
by his word, with the land rising out of the water, which were
previously destroyed by the flood, and which now are, that
will be destroyed by fire. Why then does Dave have to
fabricate a filibuster to explain this?
Because the heavens and earth weren't destroyed by fire in
A.D. 70! Therefore, he MUST come up with a spiritualized
explanation!
--
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of
prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the saints. - Ephesians 6:18
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007www.pulpitfire.org
Gatekeeper said:
Randy, God told Adam and Eve that the day they sinned, they would
die! Now according to your reasoning, Adam and Eve physically and
literally died that very day, because that is what God said, and God
cannot lie, and of course we can not look for a spiritual
understanding of spiritual matters!
Reply from Suzanne:
Gatekeeper...Adam and Eve did begin to die
the first day. They died immediately in their
spirits, they would have died progressively
in their bodies, and they would have died
ultimately in their souls, were it not for their
acceptance of the promised Seed-Redeemer
that God told them about. When God clothed
them, taking their man-made clothes and
exchanging them for those which he, himself
had sewn, this represents that they from that
point of their having trusted in the promised
Seed-Redeemer, gotten themselves "saved,"
by the grace of Amighty God. We learn later
that they evidently had told their children,
Cain and Abel about making a sacrifice. It
was the blood atoning sacrifice that Abel
brought that was received by the Lord, and
Cain's vegetable offering was not received.
This indicates that they knew about the
suffering Messiah that would come, and
they called him "the Seed" which would be
one born of a woman, that would redeem.
Suzanne
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| User: "snowpheonix" |
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| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
25 Aug 2007 05:06:24 AM |
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On Aug 25, 4:16 pm, "Suzanne" <shil...@flash.net> wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181630196.826218.260790@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 11, 11:41 pm, =AEandy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
2 Peter 3 plainly states it is the heavens and earth God made
by his word, with the land rising out of the water, which were
previously destroyed by the flood, and which now are, that
will be destroyed by fire. Why then does Dave have to
fabricate a filibuster to explain this?
Because the heavens and earth weren't destroyed by fire in
A.D. 70! Therefore, he MUST come up with a spiritualized
explanation!
--
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of
prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the saints. - Ephesians 6:18
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
=A92007www.pulpitfire.org
Gatekeeper said:
Randy, God told Adam and Eve that the day they sinned, they would
die! Now according to your reasoning, Adam and Eve physically and
literally died that very day, because that is what God said, and God
cannot lie, and of course we can not look for a spiritual
understanding of spiritual matters!
Reply from Suzanne:
Gatekeeper...Adam and Eve did begin to die
the first day. They died immediately in their
spirits, they would have died progressively
in their bodies, and they would have died
ultimately in their souls, were it not for their
acceptance of the promised Seed-Redeemer
that God told them about. When God clothed
them, taking their man-made clothes and
exchanging them for those which he, himself
had sewn, this represents that they from that
point of their having trusted in the promised
Seed-Redeemer, gotten themselves "saved,"
by the grace of Amighty God. We learn later
that they evidently had told their children,
Cain and Abel about making a sacrifice. It
was the blood atoning sacrifice that Abel
brought that was received by the Lord, and
Cain's vegetable offering was not received.
This indicates that they knew about the
suffering Messiah that would come, and
they called him "the Seed" which would be
one born of a woman, that would redeem.
Suzanne- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Actually, It's just my opinion but I believe that Eve invisioned Cain
was to be the Messiah, being her first born. Something about the
definition of the names is suppose to be the key. But the idea was
that she thought Cain would be the one to "bruise the head" of the
serpent and like so many of us... We never understand the Timing that
Elohim puts on things.
I suppose it's a reminder to us that we shouldn't be living our lives
as if it is the last days, even if many of us believe that it is. How
many times has this mistake been made where people assume that
Elohim's timed things to happen within there life.
It would explain a lot about why Cain would kill his brother over
something so small as an offering. I mean, if Elohim wasn't pleased
with what we had to offer then shouldn't that just mean that next time
we redouble our efforts to be pleasing in his eyes next time?
A nice post guys... good thoughts.
.
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| User: "Suzanne" |
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| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
25 Aug 2007 11:55:31 PM |
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"snowpheonix" <snowpheonix@eck.net.au> wrote in message
news:1188036384.362005.192960@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 25, 4:16 pm, "Suzanne" <shil...@flash.net> wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181630196.826218.260790@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 11, 11:41 pm, ®andy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
2 Peter 3 plainly states it is the heavens and earth God made
by his word, with the land rising out of the water, which were
previously destroyed by the flood, and which now are, that
will be destroyed by fire. Why then does Dave have to
fabricate a filibuster to explain this?
Because the heavens and earth weren't destroyed by fire in
A.D. 70! Therefore, he MUST come up with a spiritualized
explanation!
--
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of
prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the saints. - Ephesians 6:18
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007www.pulpitfire.org
Gatekeeper said:
Randy, God told Adam and Eve that the day they sinned, they would
die! Now according to your reasoning, Adam and Eve physically and
literally died that very day, because that is what God said, and God
cannot lie, and of course we can not look for a spiritual
understanding of spiritual matters!
Reply from Suzanne:
Gatekeeper...Adam and Eve did begin to die
the first day. They died immediately in their
spirits, they would have died progressively
in their bodies, and they would have died
ultimately in their souls, were it not for their
acceptance of the promised Seed-Redeemer
that God told them about. When God clothed
them, taking their man-made clothes and
exchanging them for those which he, himself
had sewn, this represents that they from that
point of their having trusted in the promised
Seed-Redeemer, gotten themselves "saved,"
by the grace of Amighty God. We learn later
that they evidently had told their children,
Cain and Abel about making a sacrifice. It
was the blood atoning sacrifice that Abel
brought that was received by the Lord, and
Cain's vegetable offering was not received.
This indicates that they knew about the
suffering Messiah that would come, and
they called him "the Seed" which would be
one born of a woman, that would redeem.
Suzanne- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Actually, It's just my opinion but I believe that Eve invisioned Cain
was to be the Messiah, being her first born. Something about the
definition of the names is suppose to be the key. But the idea was
that she thought Cain would be the one to "bruise the head" of the
serpent and like so many of us... We never understand the Timing that
Elohim puts on things.
Reply from Suzanne:
I love it when people speak of these biblical kinds
of things and try to figure it out. I have wondered
this also. I thought that maybe when Cain slew
Abel that maybe Adam and Eve, besides being
terribly grieved at the loss of both of their sons,
in a sense, since Cain was a murderer and left
home, that maybe they thought they were sunk
because of Cain's sins. And when Eve exclaimed
at the birth of Seth, "I've gotten a man from the
Lord!!!," I think that shows that she knew the
Messiah would still be coming because a seed
of a woman had been born. So the birth of that
third boy must have really been a big hope in
their lives that the Lord still would send the
Messiah.
You wrote:
I suppose it's a reminder to us that we shouldn't be living our lives
as if it is the last days, even if many of us believe that it is. How
many times has this mistake been made where people assume that
Elohim's timed things to happen within there life.
My reply:
I'm sure you are right. After all, we don't know
when things will end, and I think the Lord
expects us to keep on with life living it for him
to the fullest and just let him worry about when
that day is. But I do think he also wants us to
watch for the clues to be fulfilled that he told
us about, of course.
You wrote:
It would explain a lot about why Cain would kill his brother over
something so small as an offering. I mean, if Elohim wasn't pleased
with what we had to offer then shouldn't that just mean that next time
we redouble our efforts to be pleasing in his eyes next time?
You also wrote:
A nice post guys... good thoughts.
My reply:
Good thinking on your part I believe. I think that
the Lord wants us to explore these kinds of things
fully in our minds, just as you've done. It's also
fun to talk to people about their ideas about the
same things, isn't it?
--
Here's what Cain's attitude shows to me. He
evidently did know what God wanted him to
bring, I think, because I don't think the Lord
would have been displeased with him if he
didn't know what to bring. And so if Cain did
know to bring a blood sacrifice and didn't do
it, it is like people today that do what is their
idea of pleasing God, but not realy what God
has asked them to do. And I don't think the
Lord is pleased with man-made substitutes
for what he has asked him to offer. It makes
me want to please the Lord and to do all that
he asks me to do, all that he's prompted me in
my heart to do, and not shirk any of it. He asks
us to do simple things, too, like do the dishes,
mop the floor, do something nice for your
mother, etc. Things we should not have to be
told to do anyway. My ideal goal is to do what
things the Lord asks me to do, when he asks
me to do them, and not put them off at all.
Best Regards,
Suzanne
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| User: "Mistylien" |
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| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
27 Aug 2007 02:01:37 AM |
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"snowpheonix" <snowpheonix@eck.net.au> wrote in message
news:1188036384.362005.192960@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 25, 4:16 pm, "Suzanne" <shil...@flash.net> wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181630196.826218.260790@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 11, 11:41 pm, ®andy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
2 Peter 3 plainly states it is the heavens and earth God made
by his word, with the land rising out of the water, which were
previously destroyed by the flood, and which now are, that
will be destroyed by fire. Why then does Dave have to
fabricate a filibuster to explain this?
Because the heavens and earth weren't destroyed by fire in
A.D. 70! Therefore, he MUST come up with a spiritualized
explanation!
--
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of
prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the saints. - Ephesians 6:18
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007www.pulpitfire.org
Gatekeeper said:
Randy, God told Adam and Eve that the day they sinned, they would
die! Now according to your reasoning, Adam and Eve physically and
literally died that very day, because that is what God said, and God
cannot lie, and of course we can not look for a spiritual
understanding of spiritual matters!
Yes they did die but that day lasted 1,000 years,
you know a day with God is as a thousand years ect. ect.
No people lived beyond that God Day.
The Flood was 1656 years from Day one of creation to the "start of
the Rain of that flood.
so people lived in God's perfect inviournment to be so long lived
in years. Non of those Pre flood people live to be the thousand
years old.
Reply from Suzanne:
Gatekeeper...Adam and Eve did begin to die
the first day. They died immediately in their
spirits, they would have died progressively
in their bodies, and they would have died
ultimately in their souls, were it not for their
acceptance of the promised Seed-Redeemer
that God told them about. When God clothed
them, taking their man-made clothes and
exchanging them for those which he, himself
had sewn, this represents that they from that
point of their having trusted in the promised
Seed-Redeemer, gotten themselves "saved,"
by the grace of Amighty God. We learn later
that they evidently had told their children,
Cain and Abel about making a sacrifice. It
was the blood atoning sacrifice that Abel
brought that was received by the Lord, and
Cain's vegetable offering was not received.
This indicates that they knew about the
suffering Messiah that would come, and
they called him "the Seed" which would be
one born of a woman, that would redeem.
Susanne it is not all that simple.
See my reply above ^ ^ ^.
M,
Suzanne- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Actually, It's just my opinion but I believe that Eve invisioned Cain
was to be the Messiah, being her first born. Something about the
definition of the names is suppose to be the key. But the idea was
that she thought Cain would be the one to "bruise the head" of the
serpent and like so many of us... We never understand the Timing that
Elohim puts on things.
I suppose it's a reminder to us that we shouldn't be living our lives
as if it is the last days, even if many of us believe that it is. How
many times has this mistake been made where people assume that
Elohim's timed things to happen within there life.
It would explain a lot about why Cain would kill his brother over
something so small as an offering. I mean, if Elohim wasn't pleased
with what we had to offer then shouldn't that just mean that next time
we redouble our efforts to be pleasing in his eyes next time?
A nice post guys... good thoughts.
.
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
25 Aug 2007 06:02:15 AM |
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|
On Aug 25, 4:06 am, snowpheonix <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
On Aug 25, 4:16 pm, "Suzanne" <shil...@flash.net> wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181630196.826218.260790@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 11, 11:41 pm, =AEandy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
2 Peter 3 plainly states it is the heavens and earth God made
by his word, with the land rising out of the water, which were
previously destroyed by the flood, and which now are, that
will be destroyed by fire. Why then does Dave have to
fabricate a filibuster to explain this?
Because the heavens and earth weren't destroyed by fire in
A.D. 70! Therefore, he MUST come up with a spiritualized
explanation!
--
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of
prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the saints. - Ephesians 6:18
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
=A92007www.pulpitfire.org
Gatekeeper said:
Randy, God told Adam and Eve that the day they sinned, they would
die! Now according to your reasoning, Adam and Eve physically and
literally died that very day, because that is what God said, and God
cannot lie, and of course we can not look for a spiritual
understanding of spiritual matters!
Reply from Suzanne:
Gatekeeper...Adam and Eve did begin to die
the first day. They died immediately in their
spirits, they would have died progressively
in their bodies, and they would have died
ultimately in their souls, were it not for their
acceptance of the promised Seed-Redeemer
that God told them about. When God clothed
them, taking their man-made clothes and
exchanging them for those which he, himself
had sewn, this represents that they from that
point of their having trusted in the promised
Seed-Redeemer, gotten themselves "saved,"
by the grace of Amighty God. We learn later
that they evidently had told their children,
Cain and Abel about making a sacrifice. It
was the blood atoning sacrifice that Abel
brought that was received by the Lord, and
Cain's vegetable offering was not received.
This indicates that they knew about the
suffering Messiah that would come, and
they called him "the Seed" which would be
one born of a woman, that would redeem.
Suzanne- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Actually, It's just my opinion but I believe that Eve invisioned Cain
was to be the Messiah, being her first born. Something about the
definition of the names is suppose to be the key. But the idea was
that she thought Cain would be the one to "bruise the head" of the
serpent and like so many of us... We never understand the Timing that
Elohim puts on things.
I suppose it's a reminder to us that we shouldn't be living our lives
as if it is the last days, even if many of us believe that it is. How
many times has this mistake been made where people assume that
Elohim's timed things to happen within there life.
It would explain a lot about why Cain would kill his brother over
something so small as an offering. I mean, if Elohim wasn't pleased
with what we had to offer then shouldn't that just mean that next time
we redouble our efforts to be pleasing in his eyes next time?
A nice post guys... good thoughts.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Suzanne and Snowpheonix,
Note that the covering which God provided, required the sacrifice of
animals! Their blood had to be shed, and so also the sacrifice of
Abel was acceptable because it was a blood offering! Whereas the
offering of Cain was that of his own hand and effort! Are we any
different from Cain when we think that by our efforts to keep the Law,
we can be redeemed, or that our sacrifice is acceptable to God! Are
we not just as willing to slay those who make an acceptable sacrifice,
and in so doing, show our lack of understanding and foolish
unrighteousness!
Think about how appalling it is to us to see an animal killed, and how
it must have affected Adam and Eve to see that first sacrifice of
blood! Even Abel did not easily sacrifice an animal, to cover his sin
with the blood of an animal I am sure! That blood spoke of their own
impending physical death, which they were then constantly reminded of
and appalled by as well!
Yet consider the grace of God even in this, that with the ability to
shed blood, we can be redeemed, while the angels who cannot shed
blood, can only marvel at the grace of God! That which is so
appalling, God uses to our salvation!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
.
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| User: "Suzanne" |
|
| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
26 Aug 2007 12:03:48 AM |
|
|
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188039735.781423.18270@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 25, 4:06 am, snowpheonix <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
On Aug 25, 4:16 pm, "Suzanne" <shil...@flash.net> wrote:
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181630196.826218.260790@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 11, 11:41 pm, ®andy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
2 Peter 3 plainly states it is the heavens and earth God made
by his word, with the land rising out of the water, which were
previously destroyed by the flood, and which now are, that
will be destroyed by fire. Why then does Dave have to
fabricate a filibuster to explain this?
Because the heavens and earth weren't destroyed by fire in
A.D. 70! Therefore, he MUST come up with a spiritualized
explanation!
--
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of
prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the saints. - Ephesians 6:18
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
©2007www.pulpitfire.org
Gatekeeper said:
Randy, God told Adam and Eve that the day they sinned, they would
die! Now according to your reasoning, Adam and Eve physically and
literally died that very day, because that is what God said, and God
cannot lie, and of course we can not look for a spiritual
understanding of spiritual matters!
Reply from Suzanne:
Gatekeeper...Adam and Eve did begin to die
the first day. They died immediately in their
spirits, they would have died progressively
in their bodies, and they would have died
ultimately in their souls, were it not for their
acceptance of the promised Seed-Redeemer
that God told them about. When God clothed
them, taking their man-made clothes and
exchanging them for those which he, himself
had sewn, this represents that they from that
point of their having trusted in the promised
Seed-Redeemer, gotten themselves "saved,"
by the grace of Amighty God. We learn later
that they evidently had told their children,
Cain and Abel about making a sacrifice. It
was the blood atoning sacrifice that Abel
brought that was received by the Lord, and
Cain's vegetable offering was not received.
This indicates that they knew about the
suffering Messiah that would come, and
they called him "the Seed" which would be
one born of a woman, that would redeem.
Suzanne- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Actually, It's just my opinion but I believe that Eve invisioned Cain
was to be the Messiah, being her first born. Something about the
definition of the names is suppose to be the key. But the idea was
that she thought Cain would be the one to "bruise the head" of the
serpent and like so many of us... We never understand the Timing that
Elohim puts on things.
I suppose it's a reminder to us that we shouldn't be living our lives
as if it is the last days, even if many of us believe that it is. How
many times has this mistake been made where people assume that
Elohim's timed things to happen within there life.
It would explain a lot about why Cain would kill his brother over
something so small as an offering. I mean, if Elohim wasn't pleased
with what we had to offer then shouldn't that just mean that next time
we redouble our efforts to be pleasing in his eyes next time?
A nice post guys... good thoughts.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Suzanne and Snowpheonix,
Note that the covering which God provided, required the sacrifice of
animals! Their blood had to be shed, and so also the sacrifice of
Abel was acceptable because it was a blood offering! Whereas the
offering of Cain was that of his own hand and effort! Are we any
different from Cain when we think that by our efforts to keep the Law,
we can be redeemed, or that our sacrifice is acceptable to God! Are
we not just as willing to slay those who make an acceptable sacrifice,
and in so doing, show our lack of understanding and foolish
unrighteousness!
Think about how appalling it is to us to see an animal killed, and how
it must have affected Adam and Eve to see that first sacrifice of
blood! Even Abel did not easily sacrifice an animal, to cover his sin
with the blood of an animal I am sure! That blood spoke of their own
impending physical death, which they were then constantly reminded of
and appalled by as well!
Yet consider the grace of God even in this, that with the ability to
shed blood, we can be redeemed, while the angels who cannot shed
blood, can only marvel at the grace of God! That which is so
appalling, God uses to our salvation!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Reply from Suzanne:
Yes, Gatekeeper what you have said is so right.
Yes, it surely was meant to be that it was a
blood sacrifice which pointed to the Savior
who would come and shed his blood for their
sins. And you are right, I am sure that Adam
and Eve never saw anything die before the
Lord made clothes for them of animal skins.
It doesn't say who slew those animals in th
Bible, but I imagine that it was Adam and
Eve and that they had to face how awful
sin it, and that someone would suffere for
their sakes. That would be an incentive to
want to do God's will even more. But they
would not be obeying dryly, because their
attitudes would be more pleasing in that
they would gladly obey God for forgiving
them and providing a way.
After the fall, I am sure that Eve wept when
she saw Adam trying to till the cursed ground
to bring forth food for them. And yet he loved
his wife so much, he was glad to provide for
her. Also, we always think of them as bringing
sin into the world, like they had so much sin
in their lives. They only committed one sin to
get in that state. And how many of us have
committed so much more. And I wonder how
many people have asked themselves how long
they would have lasted in the Garden?
Best Regards,
Suzanne
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mistylien" |
|
| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
27 Aug 2007 02:10:40 AM |
|
|
"Suzanne" <shiloh7@flash.net> wrote in message
news:UQ7Ai.3634$JD.608@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188039735.781423.18270@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 25, 4:06 am, snowpheonix <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
On Aug 25, 4:16 pm, "Suzanne" <shil...@flash.net> wrote:
Gatekeeper said:
Randy, God told Adam and Eve that the day they sinned, they would
die! Now according to your reasoning, Adam and Eve physically and
literally died that very day, because that is what God said, and God
cannot lie, and of course we can not look for a spiritual
understanding of spiritual matters!
Reply from Suzanne:
Gatekeeper...Adam and Eve did begin to die
the first day. They died immediately in their
spirits, they would have died progressively
in their bodies, and they would have died
ultimately in their souls, were it not for their
acceptance of the promised Seed-Redeemer
that God told them about. When God clothed
them, taking their man-made clothes and
exchanging them for those which he, himself
had sewn, this represents that they from that
point of their having trusted in the promised
Seed-Redeemer, gotten themselves "saved,"
by the grace of Amighty God. We learn later
that they evidently had told their children,
Cain and Abel about making a sacrifice. It
was the blood atoning sacrifice that Abel
brought that was received by the Lord, and
Cain's vegetable offering was not received.
This indicates that they knew about the
suffering Messiah that would come, and
they called him "the Seed" which would be
one born of a woman, that would redeem.
Suzanne- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Actually, It's just my opinion but I believe that Eve invisioned Cain
was to be the Messiah, being her first born. Something about the
definition of the names is suppose to be the key. But the idea was
that she thought Cain would be the one to "bruise the head" of the
serpent and like so many of us... We never understand the Timing that
Elohim puts on things.
I suppose it's a reminder to us that we shouldn't be living our lives
as if it is the last days, even if many of us believe that it is. How
many times has this mistake been made where people assume that
Elohim's timed things to happen within there life.
It would explain a lot about why Cain would kill his brother over
something so small as an offering. I mean, if Elohim wasn't pleased
with what we had to offer then shouldn't that just mean that next time
we redouble our efforts to be pleasing in his eyes next time?
A nice post guys... good thoughts.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Suzanne and Snowpheonix,
Note that the covering which God provided, required the sacrifice of
animals! Their blood had to be shed, and so also the sacrifice of
Abel was acceptable because it was a blood offering! Whereas the
offering of Cain was that of his own hand and effort! Are we any
different from Cain when we think that by our efforts to keep the Law,
we can be redeemed, or that our sacrifice is acceptable to God! Are
we not just as willing to slay those who make an acceptable sacrifice,
and in so doing, show our lack of understanding and foolish
unrighteousness!
Think about how appalling it is to us to see an animal killed, and how
it must have affected Adam and Eve to see that first sacrifice of
blood! Even Abel did not easily sacrifice an animal, to cover his sin
with the blood of an animal I am sure! That blood spoke of their own
impending physical death, which they were then constantly reminded of
and appalled by as well!
Is this not where the historians get the cave man idea from?
Yet consider the grace of God even in this, that with the ability to
shed blood, we can be redeemed, while the angels who cannot shed
blood, can only marvel at the grace of God! That which is so
appalling, God uses to our salvation!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Reply from Suzanne:
Yes, Gatekeeper what you have said is so right.
Yes, it surely was meant to be that it was a
blood sacrifice which pointed to the Savior
who would come and shed his blood for their
sins. And you are right, I am sure that Adam
and Eve never saw anything die before the
Lord made clothes for them of animal skins.
It doesn't say who slew those animals in th
Bible, but I imagine that it was Adam and
Eve and that they had to face how awful
sin it, and that someone would suffere for
their sakes. That would be an incentive to
want to do God's will even more. But they
would not be obeying dryly, because their
attitudes would be more pleasing in that
they would gladly obey God for forgiving
them and providing a way.
After the fall, I am sure that Eve wept when
she saw Adam trying to till the cursed ground
to bring forth food for them. And yet he loved
his wife so much, he was glad to provide for
her. Also, we always think of them as bringing
sin into the world, like they had so much sin
in their lives. They only committed one sin to
get in that state. And how many of us have
committed so much more. And I wonder how
many people have asked themselves how long
they would have lasted in the Garden?
We only have to breake one Sin and the whole law has
been broken. This proves we are not that Messiah that
was to come, does it not?
M,
Best Regards,
Suzanne
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
12 Jun 2007 07:52:40 AM |
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|
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 23:36:36 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
On Jun 11, 11:41 pm, ®andy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
2 Peter 3 plainly states it is the heavens and earth God made
by his word, with the land rising out of the water, which were
previously destroyed by the flood, and which now are, that
will be destroyed by fire. Why then does Dave have to
fabricate a filibuster to explain this?
Because the heavens and earth weren't destroyed by fire in
A.D. 70! Therefore, he MUST come up with a spiritualized
explanation!
Randy, God told Adam and Eve that the day they sinned, they would
die! Now according to your reasoning, Adam and Eve physically and
literally died that very day, because that is what God said, and God
cannot lie, and of course we can not look for a spiritual
understanding of spiritual matters!
Dave, thanks, for your study of these matters!
You're welcome. Some think that because they take
the words physically literally, that this proves that
they are physically literal, while they ignore the word
that tells us what exactly was going to "melt", which
is "the elements", which refers to the religious system,
the Mosaic Covenant, which did in fact melt, in 70 AD.
As every Rabbi knows, Biblical Judaism ended in 70 AD.
Coincidence? :)
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.
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| User: "Fred A Stover" |
|
| Title: Re: Passing of the Elements |
12 Jun 2007 01:01:22 PM |
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|
"Pastor Dave" <.....SNAFU.....@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:mo5t63duclppfbrnmlmhpisfct6vfv264l@4ax.com...
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 23:36:36 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:
The prophecy of the 7th day as the millennium also prophesied the first six
millennial days that make it the seventh.
The first millennial day:
Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of
it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
See The Day of the Lord @ www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
--
Transliterated Greek text of 2 John 1:7 in which the present active
participle "ercomenon: is coming" is mistranslated in some Bibles as "is
come."
2Jo 1:7 oti polloi planoi exhlqon ei ton kosmon oi mh omologounte ihsoun
criston ercomenon en sarki outo estin o plano kai o anticristo
The literal translation is: "For many deceivers are entering into the world,
who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver
and an antichrist."
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
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