Jeff,
I did not see an answer to the response I sent you
on 2/6/06. I wasn't sure which groups you are
directly accessing, so I posting this to more than
one. Below is my last response to, quoted in full.
Thank you for answering #3 and could you now
please answer #1 & #2? Thank you. :)
I will quote the first passage that you had responded
to "JPF" with, so that other readers won't have to
look it up, if they happen to read this message and
wish to follow the conversation...
"For the living know that they shall die:
but the dead know not any thing, neither
have they any more a reward; for the
memory of them is forgotten." - Ecc 9:5
Everything below this line, is a quote of that
previous message...
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 18:22:30 GMT, "1st Century
Apostolic Traditionalist" <nospamatall@add.com>
spake thusly:
As I will point out at the end of this message,
you have answered one of the three questions
satisfactorily and I was mistaken about what
you meant regarding Question #3. Thus, I have
quoted it in full and noted that publicly and I
have dropped it from the list of questions.
Thank you for clearing that one up for me. :)
We still have two questions to deal with however
and I have made sure to quote your words and
our conversation (which includes the comment
from JPF, which started it all), to show that I am
not mistaken about the other two. :) I did trim
it down to the essentials (I noted which passages
you quoted, but did not include them in the quote).
And please note that again, caps are used for
emphasis and not for shouting.
QUESTIONS:
Q1) Since you included those who are asleep
in Christ in that passage (Ecc 9:5),
I never stated I included them at all Dave.
Yes, you did. And note the word "everyone"
in the conversation, which went, in part,
as follows...
**********************************************
JPF: Dying, to the Christian, is the way to life
eternal. But, the question still remains. Are
we still connected, though perhaps in different
dimensions? I don't know.
JEFF: What sayeth the Scripture.......Ecc. 9:5
<snip quote of Ecc 9:5 & Acts 2:41>
JEFF: They are "Asleep in Christ" and will be
awakened on his Return.
PD: Then everyone who dies is asleep? No one
is in Heaven?
JEFF: You believe the Scripture don't you Dave?
<snip quote of 1 Thes 4:13-18 & Psalm 149:6-9>
PD: You did not answer my questions. Again...
Then everyone who dies is asleep? No one is
in Heaven?
JEFF: That's what the Scripture stated.
*********************************************
Here is the link. Make sure when reading through
the messages in the thread, that you click on,
"Show quoted text" in each one and you'll see all
of the words quoted above and that they do follow
one another in the order that I quoted them.
http://tinyurl.com/b48np
Note that I asked you if *EVERYONE* who dies
is asleep and you responded by telling me that's
what the Scripture (Ecc 9:5, etc.) says and that
they are asleep, until Christ returns.
So yes, you did say that all Christians who die
are asleep.
You also said that they stay asleep, until Christ
returns, since the word "everyone" obviously
includes "everyone". :)
So since it is those in Christ who go to Heaven
and not the rest, then yes, you affirmed that
those in Christ, when they die, are asleep until
Christ returns. I did not misrepresent what
you said, in any way, shape, nor form.
You also later said that it "may be" that some
are presently being resurrected, when I pointed
out that you are stating that no one (besides
the Father, Son, angels) are in Heaven.
So yes, there is a contradiction there, in your
two statements. It cannot be that everyone
who has died/does die is asleep until Christ
returns and that those in Christ have been
resurrected and are being resurrected.
See below, before responding, please.
<text from above placed back (below) with the text
it was originally with>
Q1) Since you included those who are asleep in Christ
in that passage (Ecc 9:5), what about the part where
it says that, "the memory of them is forgotten" and
"they have no more reward"?
You are left with claiming that Christians are forgotten
and that when Christians are raised, they receive no reward.
How do you reconcile that with the Scriptural teaching
that believers are remembered and do receive their reward
when they are resurrected?
See above.
You see above and then, PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION.
There is a REAL PROBLEM there!
Again, the question is, HOW DO YOU RECONCILE
your claim of Christians being included ("everyone")
in Ecc 9:5, with the fact that Ecc 9:5 says about
"the dead", which is that...
a) "the memory of them is forgotten".
b) "they have no more reward".
How can that Scripture be applied to Christians?
Or will you now state that it was in error to apply
that particular Scripture to Christians?
I will not jump on you if you say you were wrong.
I have been trying to keep this dialogue friendly.
But to not admit it was an error, if indeed you
believe that it was not, requires that you reconcile
these issues Scripturally, if you wish to maintain
that you believe in being honest and that you
believe in what the Bible says and that we should
live by it. While none of us acts perfectly, we
should at least answer a question directly and
specifically, about the resurrection, don't you agree?
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready always to give an answer to
EVERY MAN that asketh you a reason of
the hope that is in you with meekness and
fear:" - 1 Peter 3:15
This issue is about "the hope". The hope is
the resurrection, as Paul said...
Acts 26:6-8
6) And now I stand and am judged for the hope
of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
7) Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly
serving God day and night, hope to come. For which
hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
8) Why should it be thought a thing incredible with
you, that God should raise the dead?
So I am indeed asking that you either reconcile
this, or state that it was simply an error on your
part, for Question #1.
If you can resolve it, great! For I will sure have
learned something BIG! :)
If you cannot, please maintain the honesty that
you stated that you also seek in our conversation
and admit that it was an error to apply Ecc 9:5
to Christians.
Q2) Since, according to you the resurrection has not
yet happened because Christ has not yet returned,
how can "part of" the resurrection and judgment
already be happening?
It 'could' be so......as the "Dead in Christ shall rise FIRST"
ie, before the living are taken to be with Christ and obtain
their judgment. Those still alive on the earth 'maybe' the
last to be judged.
You are not answering the question.
JEFF: Part of the resurrection and judgment may
be happening ATM. As the "DEAD in Christ shall
rise FIRST"
ATM = "at the moment".
I am not asking you to say again that it "could be".
You already said that. That is why I asked the
question that I asked. :)
My question is...
Since you previously claimed that the resurrection
has not occurred and that EVERYONE who has
died sleeps until Christ returns, then HOW DO
YOU RECONCILE your claim that everyone who
dies is asleep until Christ returns, with your claim
that some "may be" resurrecting EVEN NOW?
Again, the question is, HOW DO YOU RECONCILE
these two statements?
Those two statements are in contradiction to each
other, at least as you have stated them. There is no
way around that, Jeff.
Saying "MAY BE" does NOT take away from the fact
that you have stated a contradiction.
Saying "MAY BE" does not mean that you are not
contradicting yourself.
You're saying, in effect...
"I Jeff, am honest at all times, when stating what
Scripture says. And I say that *ALL* those who die,
are asleep until Christ returns. At the same time,
I will state that maybe some in Christ could be
resurrecting now. And btw, I don't contradict
myself and so no explanation is necessary."
I'm sorry Jeff, but NO ONE will buy THAT and
that IS what you are saying, when the words
you have posted thus far are combined and
summed up. :)
So if you want to continue to claim that you are
honestly interpreting the Scriptures, then you
have to tell me HOW YOU RECONCILE THEM,
or drop one of them.
We all make mistakes and so, if you cannot reconcile
the two statements, then just admit to the mistake
and tell me which claim you wish to drop and show
me Scripturally, why you are dropping that one.
Personally, I see a problem, regardless of which one
you drop.
If you say that not everyone slept until Christ's
return and that those in Christ are being resurrected,
then what do you do with the statements in Scripture
about the resurrection happening at His return?
If you say that everyone sleeps until Christ returns,
then you end up stating that no one (that was human,
besides Christ) is in Heaven and the Scripture shows
clearly that some were, before Christ's return.
There is, of course, a third option, but you reject
my views and tell me that what I believe is false,
so I won't bother telling you what it is.
But I am waiting for you to answer to the problem,
as it was created by YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE.
It seems to me, you have three choices.
1) Reconcile your two statements and back that up
with Scripture. Those two statements were...
1a) That everyone who died/dies is asleep until
Christ returns.
1b) That those in Christ have already been resurrected
and are being resurrected (upon death, I assume).
2) State that you were wrong about everyone being
asleep until Christ returns and back up the dropping
of that claim Scripturally.
3) State that you were wrong about those in Christ
already being resurrected and continuing to be
resurrected and back that up Scripturally.
Your choice which one, but as I said, please back up
whichever choice you make with Scriptural support.
Q3) If it is true that "some of" the dead in Christ
are rising and continue to rise, as you said "may be"
occurring even now, then what are the qualifications
that determine that the "some" in Christ who were
raised should be raised, while others in Christ, should
be left sleeping?
Let me clarify.
When the dead are raised it will be ALL, not just some,
who "Have put on Christ" by being baptized into his
saving name.
Okay, fine. That's a satisfactory explanation.
Question #3 is answered. You are saying that
the "some" you mentioned, are those in Christ.
I accept that you have answered that and that
I simply misunderstood your remark to mean,
"some of those in Christ".
As I said, we all make mistakes. :)
But that still leaves the two questions above
unanswered.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
The Last Days were in the first century:
"For yet, A LITTLE WHILE, and He that SHALL
come will come, and WILL NOT TARRY.
- Hebrews 10:37
.
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