| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Streamer" |
| Date: |
08 Nov 2004 09:51:34 PM |
| Object: |
Prayers to the dead. |
Can we still talk to a person after he died ?
Some people talk or pray to their loved ones who passed away; is this right
?
And can our prayers contribute to the salvation on someone who died ?
.
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| User: "Y" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 08:25:11 AM |
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<a9Xjd.48151$fF6.20704570@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
Can we still talk to a person after he died ?
Some people talk or pray to their loved ones who passed away; is this right
?
And can our prayers contribute to the salvation on someone who died ?
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
.
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| User: "Y" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
12 Nov 2004 06:44:49 AM |
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(Y) wrote in message news:<3fc8a35a.0411090625.40ec1975@posting.google.com>...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<a9Xjd.48151$fF6.20704570@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
Can we still talk to a person after he died ?
Some people talk or pray to their loved ones who passed away; is this right
?
And can our prayers contribute to the salvation on someone who died ?
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Did I miss an answer to my questions from those that believe in "soul
sleep" out there?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 01:30:54 PM |
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On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 07:13:29 PM |
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<me@you.net> wrote in message
news:4b62p0ta1fufj38fqqrrn1l0mvkrhe9lls@4ax.com...
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
Those verses are true.
Only I was thinking about the interpretation of sleep. Concious or not ?
Aware, or no memory at all ?
Luke16:22-26
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels
into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar
off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am
tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy
good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and
thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so
that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass
to us, that would come from thence.
* Jesus used real known people here. Not like His other parables.
.
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| User: "Russell G." |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
10 Nov 2004 03:42:41 PM |
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Streamer ---
You have a problem though with the parable of the rich man and
Lazarus if you are saying this is literal.
Why did the rich man go to hades? Because he had received good
all his life.
Why did Lazarus get taken to the bosum of Abraham? Because he
had received ill all his life.
No judgement, no sacrifice to God. God doesn't even enter the
picture. Who does? Abraham. Why do you think that is? Who
was Jesus speaking to? The DESCENDANTS of Abraham. What
was the point he was trying to get across? That the Jews had sat
at the table, receiving all the "riches" from God, while the rest of the
world was poor and received only the scraps.
Remember, a parable brings forth a subtle, but profound, truth.
People who desire to have prayer to the dead, or who want to
go immediately to heaven when they die, twist this parable to
make it say what it was never meant to say.
Perhaps you should go to 1 Cor 15 and read the definition
of sleep. Or to 1 Thes. 4 to read about those that will be
raised from death (why should there be a resurrection if all
the people are ALREADY in heaven?).
David is said to sleep with his ancestors, and so on and so on.
God has a purpose for the sleep of death. We await the time
of our judgment/reward. No punishment given to the short
life of a teenager who has rejected Christ BEFORE the author
of our misery, Satan.
Best read with clarity and understanding what the Bible actually
says about death. It's a good read.
God bless,
Russell G.
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:ZWdkd.54990$fF6.23696083@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
<me@you.net> wrote in message
news:4b62p0ta1fufj38fqqrrn1l0mvkrhe9lls@4ax.com...
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
Those verses are true.
Only I was thinking about the interpretation of sleep. Concious or not ?
Aware, or no memory at all ?
Luke16:22-26
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels
into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar
off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I
am
tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy
good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted,
and
thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so
that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass
to us, that would come from thence.
* Jesus used real known people here. Not like His other parables.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
10 Nov 2004 09:17:11 PM |
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"Russell G." <russellphoto@nospam.cableone.net> wrote in message
news:cmu31o$9cj$1@news.chatlink.com...
Streamer ---
You have a problem though with the parable of the rich man and
Lazarus if you are saying this is literal.
----------------------
I know this is a parable. But can Jesus use real events when saying parables
?
Why is it that "real people" like Abraham was used in that parable ?
Did Jesus used "impossible to happen events" in his parables ? If so, what
verse?
'Jesus said "It is finished" and bowing His head, He gave up His Spirit.'
(John 19:30).
As Jesus' Spirit left His body, He died. We are taught that His Spirit
descended to Sheol (Hell) for three days and three nights
1Pe:3:18: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the
unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but
quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe:3:19: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
When Jesus died, He preached unto the spirits...
Do you agree ?
-------------------------
Why did the rich man go to hades? Because he had received good
all his life.
Why did Lazarus get taken to the bosum of Abraham? Because he
had received ill all his life.
-------------------------
The rich man received good things in his life without God in his heart..
The other one is a real christian, who even though received ill all his
life, he have Jesus to save him.
-------------------------
....
Perhaps you should go to 1 Cor 15 and read the definition
of sleep. Or to 1 Thes. 4 to read about those that will be
raised from death (why should there be a resurrection if all
the people are ALREADY in heaven?).
-------------------------
* Who said that all people who died are already in heaven ?
Rev 6:9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the
souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony
which they held:
Rev 6:10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy
and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the
earth?
* Also the previous verses, do you believe that those are souls crying with
a loud voice ?
* Or maybe you believe that without a body, people are unconcious ?
....
.
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
11 Nov 2004 12:31:53 AM |
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Confusing the two (body and spirit), as if they were one and the same, we
may conclude the following...
"Russell G." <russellphoto@nospam.cableone.net> wrote in message
news:cmu31o$9cj$1@news.chatlink.com...
Streamer ---
You have a problem though with the parable of the rich man and
Lazarus if you are saying this is literal.
Why did the rich man go to hades? Because he had received good
all his life.
Why did Lazarus get taken to the bosum of Abraham? Because he
had received ill all his life.
No judgement, no sacrifice to God. God doesn't even enter the
picture. Who does? Abraham. Why do you think that is? Who
was Jesus speaking to? The DESCENDANTS of Abraham. What
was the point he was trying to get across? That the Jews had sat
at the table, receiving all the "riches" from God, while the rest of the
world was poor and received only the scraps.
Remember, a parable brings forth a subtle, but profound, truth.
People who desire to have prayer to the dead, or who want to
go immediately to heaven when they die, twist this parable to
make it say what it was never meant to say.
Perhaps you should go to 1 Cor 15 and read the definition
of sleep. Or to 1 Thes. 4 to read about those that will be
raised from death (why should there be a resurrection if all
the people are ALREADY in heaven?).
David is said to sleep with his ancestors, and so on and so on.
God has a purpose for the sleep of death. We await the time
of our judgment/reward. No punishment given to the short
life of a teenager who has rejected Christ BEFORE the author
of our misery, Satan.
Best read with clarity and understanding what the Bible actually
says about death. It's a good read.
God bless,
Russell G.
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:ZWdkd.54990$fF6.23696083@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
<me@you.net> wrote in message
news:4b62p0ta1fufj38fqqrrn1l0mvkrhe9lls@4ax.com...
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
Those verses are true.
Only I was thinking about the interpretation of sleep. Concious or not ?
Aware, or no memory at all ?
Luke16:22-26
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels
into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham
afar
off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send
Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I
am
tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy
good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted,
and
thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so
that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they
pass
to us, that would come from thence.
* Jesus used real known people here. Not like His other parables.
.
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| User: "NiTeHaWK" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. (Sheol) |
09 Dec 2004 02:10:54 PM |
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Russell G. wrote:
Streamer ---
Another term, and one more relevant to our topic, is the Greek term
Hades (e.g., Matt 11:23). This term comes from Greek mythology in
which it was the abode of the dead. It was used to translate into
Greek the Hebrew concept of Sheol. While in the Old Testament this
term was not mythological, it was a metaphorical way to talk about
what happened to people when they died. Sheol was simply the place where
dead people go. It was almost synonymous with death and especially
“grave,” and indeed is used that way in several Old Testament passages,
e.g., Psa 49:14:
Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their
shepherd; straight to the grave they descend, and their form
shall waste away; Sheol shall be their home.
In other words, Sheol or Hades was a poetic way to say, “they died and
were buried.” It is in this sense that the phrase in the Apostles’
Creed is used, using the ambiguous word “hell” in English, when
the more precise idea of Hades actually lies behind the statement.
“He descended into hell” then becomes nothing more than a statement
that Jesus died and was placed in the tomb, the grave. In Hebrew
concepts, they would say he descended into Sheol, i.e., was lowered
into the grave, or that he slept with the fathers, i.e., was placed
in a family tomb. It is in that context that the affirmation of the
resurrection is so powerful.
http://www.cresourcei.org/dead.html
From some of Streamers other posts I get the feeling s/he is a mornan,
hence why this belief if prayers for the dead.
NiTeHaWK
.
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| User: "Y" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
12 Nov 2004 06:43:52 AM |
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wrote in message news:<4b62p0ta1fufj38fqqrrn1l0mvkrhe9lls@4ax.com>...
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
It isn't speaking for itself. You a human are carefully selecting
quotes to support what you believe God is telling you to select.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
12 Nov 2004 09:41:40 AM |
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On 12 Nov 2004 04:43:52 -0800, (Y) done went and
wrote as Gospel Truth in these here little old Usenet News'FROUPS:
It isn't speaking for itself. You a human are carefully selecting
quotes to support what you believe God is telling you to select.
Oh? Why do you believe so?
-------------------------------------------------------
JESUS IS THE ROCK
God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called
-------------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "Y" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 09:43:18 PM |
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wrote in message news:<4b62p0ta1fufj38fqqrrn1l0mvkrhe9lls@4ax.com>...
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
Nope you believe that sniped sections of the Bible speaks for you.
Can you respond to the questions?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
10 Nov 2004 05:13:44 PM |
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On 9 Nov 2004 19:43:18 -0800, (Y) done went and
wrote as Gospel Truth in these here little old Usenet News'FROUPS:
Nope you believe that sniped sections of the Bible speaks for you.
Can you respond to the questions?
I already HAVE.
-------------------------------------------------------
JESUS IS THE ROCK
God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called
-------------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "Russell G." |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
10 Nov 2004 03:46:19 PM |
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Y --
Your answers are found in Ecclesiasties. The 3rd, 6th,
9th and 12 chapters of the book.
The soul (life-giving force) returns to God who gave it.
Go to Genesis. Find out what a living soul is made of...
Clay of the earth, formed by God's hands PLUS the breath of life
(given by God) = a living soul.
Take away the breath of life from a living soul = clay of the earth.
The life God gave us at birth, returns to Him at our death. It is
unknowing and unthinking (unless you are somehow claiming
that God gave you a "sinful" soul).
God bless,
Russell G.
"Y" <> wrote in message
news:3fc8a35a.0411091943.39b0584e@posting.google.com...
me@you.net wrote in message
news:<4b62p0ta1fufj38fqqrrn1l0mvkrhe9lls@4ax.com>...
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
Nope you believe that sniped sections of the Bible speaks for you.
Can you respond to the questions?
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
10 Nov 2004 09:31:24 PM |
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"Russell G." <russellphoto@nospam.cableone.net> wrote in message
news:cmu38i$9ji$1@news.chatlink.com...
Y --
Your answers are found in Ecclesiasties. The 3rd, 6th,
9th and 12 chapters of the book.
The soul (life-giving force) returns to God who gave it.
Go to Genesis. Find out what a living soul is made of...
Clay of the earth, formed by God's hands PLUS the breath of life
(given by God) = a living soul.
Take away the breath of life from a living soul = clay of the earth.
The life God gave us at birth, returns to Him at our death. It is
unknowing and unthinking (unless you are somehow claiming
that God gave you a "sinful" soul).
Re:6:9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the
souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony
which they held:
Re:6:10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy
and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the
earth?
* How can an unknowing and unthinking should be able to TALK & SHOUT ?
--------------------------
1Pe:3:18: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the
unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but
quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe:3:19: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
* Spirits can hear too.
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| User: "----Rod----" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 06:59:29 PM |
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wrote:
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
Fine...then please explain the appearence of Moses and Elijah at
Christs transfiguration on the mount .......
Rod
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 09:01:23 PM |
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"----Rod----" <freelance67401@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:10p2pvhtpi7hj5d@corp.supernews.com...
me@you.net wrote:
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Joh 11:13
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and
cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep. 1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and
many
sleep. 1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins. 1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ
are
perished. 1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are
of all
men most miserable. 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and
become the
firstfruits of them that slept. 1Co 15:21 For since by man came death,
by man came also the
resurrection of the dead. 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in
Christ shall all be made
alive. 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. I believe the Bible
speaks for itself.
Fine...then please explain the appearence of Moses and Elijah at Christs
transfiguration on the mount .......
Rod
You mean you don't know ??? You're not serious are you ?
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| User: "David Roman" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
11 Nov 2004 10:34:48 AM |
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----Rod---- <freelance67401@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<10p2pvhtpi7hj5d@corp.supernews.com>...
me@you.net wrote:
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
Fine...then please explain the appearence of Moses and Elijah at
Christs transfiguration on the mount .......
Rod
Matt. 17:9 And as they were coming down out of the mountain, Jesus
commanded them saying -- unto no one may ye tell the **vision**, until
the Son of Man from among the dead shall arise.
What Peter, James, and John saw was a vision.
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| User: "stone" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 09:09:08 PM |
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----Rod---- wrote in message <10p2pvhtpi7hj5d@corp.supernews.com>...
me@you.net wrote:
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
This verse right here makes a distinction between sleeping and death. They
are not the same. The word sleep is used about death in a figurative sense
as a figure of speech and is not meant to be taken literally.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
10 Nov 2004 05:11:47 PM |
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On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:59:29 -0600, ----Rod----
<freelance67401@yahoo.com> done went and wrote as Gospel Truth in
these here little old Usenet News'FROUPS:
me@you.net wrote:
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
Fine...then please explain the appearence of Moses and Elijah at
Christs transfiguration on the mount .......
Rod
rod, I was not arguing any point, other than those who die, their
spirits go to Heaven, and their bodies remain here...... awaiting the
resurrection.
It's the same argument with the romanists about Mary. they insist she
is capable of hearing and answering prayer..... if that was true, then
so should every person whose soul has already gone to Heaven.
I have no argument with what the Scriptures say concerning Moses and
Elijah :O)
Doc
-------------------------------------------------------
JESUS IS THE ROCK
God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called
-------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "ujb" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
10 Nov 2004 05:34:01 PM |
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wrote:
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:59:29 -0600, ----Rod----
<freelance67401@yahoo.com> done went and wrote as Gospel Truth in
these here little old Usenet News'FROUPS:
me@you.net wrote:
On 9 Nov 2004 06:25:11 -0800, (Y) wrote:
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no
more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he
had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet
in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
I believe the Bible speaks for itself.
Fine...then please explain the appearence of Moses and Elijah at
Christs transfiguration on the mount .......
Rod
rod, I was not arguing any point, other than those who die, their
spirits go to Heaven, and their bodies remain here...... awaiting the
resurrection.
It's the same argument with the romanists about Mary. they insist she
is capable of hearing and answering prayer..... if that was true, then
so should every person whose soul has already gone to Heaven.
I have no argument with what the Scriptures say concerning Moses and
Elijah :O)
And lidy, you cannot explain it concerning Moses and Elijah either! How about
you telling us why Moses is still with body on cloud nine and Mary can't be the
same? I take it you are saying God is a respecter of Moses and not Mary!
ujie
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| User: "The Fuzz" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 08:46:08 AM |
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You can absolutely pray to the dead. They are living with God in heaven.
Your faith is your answer. I understand that faith has many unanswerable
questions, but seek guidance and you will find your peace of mind about
death and the dead. I believe that my dead relatives and friends can hear
me when I speak to them in either prayer or just call for them. Obviously I
can't hear them, but I faithfully believe that they can hear me and by
hearing my prayers, it helps them by knowing that they have touched us and
that they have positively impacted our lives on earth.
Dan
"Y" <DY602@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3fc8a35a.0411090625.40ec1975@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<a9Xjd.48151$fF6.20704570@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
Can we still talk to a person after he died ?
Some people talk or pray to their loved ones who passed away; is this
right
?
And can our prayers contribute to the salvation on someone who died ?
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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http://www.usenet.com
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| User: "Y" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 09:41:18 PM |
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"The Fuzz" <None@none.com> wrote in message news:<4190d72d$1_4@127.0.0.1>...
You can absolutely pray to the dead. They are living with God in heaven.
Your faith is your answer. I understand that faith has many unanswerable
questions, but seek guidance and you will find your peace of mind about
death and the dead. I believe that my dead relatives and friends can hear
me when I speak to them in either prayer or just call for them. Obviously I
can't hear them, but I faithfully believe that they can hear me and by
hearing my prayers, it helps them by knowing that they have touched us and
that they have positively impacted our lives on earth.
My question was to the SDA Streamer that started the thread but thanx for the post.
Dan
"Y" <DY602@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3fc8a35a.0411090625.40ec1975@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<a9Xjd.48151$fF6.20704570@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
Can we still talk to a person after he died ?
Some people talk or pray to their loved ones who passed away; is this
right
?
And can our prayers contribute to the salvation on someone who died ?
Why do you believe the dead are sleeping? Where is the soul does it
sleep there to? Can we dig up a soul or does it rot with the body?
what exists after death?
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 07:03:52 PM |
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"The Fuzz" <None@none.com> wrote in message news:4190d72d$1_4@127.0.0.1...
You can absolutely pray to the dead. They are living with God in heaven.
Your faith is your answer. I understand that faith has many unanswerable
questions, but seek guidance and you will find your peace of mind about
death and the dead. I believe that my dead relatives and friends can hear
me when I speak to them in either prayer or just call for them. Obviously
I can't hear them, but I faithfully believe that they can hear me and by
hearing my prayers, it helps them by knowing that they have touched us and
that they have positively impacted our lives on earth.
Dan
As a man, I want what you said.
But the question is, are we going to do things because that's what we want
and believe ?
Shouldn't we open the Bible and look what God said about it, or what He
wants us to do ?
Because if what we believe is not true, we're in trouble.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 01:31:26 PM |
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On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:46:08 -0500, "The Fuzz" <None@none.com> wrote:
You can absolutely pray to the dead.
No you can't.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Prayers to the dead. |
09 Nov 2004 01:24:06 PM |
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On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 03:51:34 GMT, "Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net>
wrote:
Can we still talk to a person after he died ?
Some people talk or pray to their loved ones who passed away; is this
right
?
And can our prayers contribute to the salvation on someone who died ?
NO.
It's like the false 'baptism for the dead'..........
1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if
the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
1Co 15:29 - Else--if there be no resurrection.
what shall they do?--How wretched is their lot!
they . . . which are baptized for the dead--third person; a class
distinct from that in which the apostle places himself, "we"
(1Co_15:30); first person. ALFORD thinks there is an allusion to a
practice at Corinth of baptizing a living person in behalf of a friend
who died unbaptized; thus Paul, without giving the least sanction to
the practice, uses an ad hominem argument from it against its
practicers, some of whom, though using it, denied the resurrection:
"What account can they give of their practice; why are they at the
trouble of it, if the dead rise not?" [So Jesus used an ad hominem
argument, Mat_12:27]. But if so, it is strange there is no direct
censure of it. Some Marcionites adopted the practice at a later
period, probably from taking this passage, as ALFORD does; but,
generally, it was unknown in the Church. BENGEL translates, "over
(immediately upon) the dead," that is, who will be gathered to the
dead immediately after baptism. Compare Job_17:1, "the graves are
ready for me." The price they get for their trouble is, that they
should be gathered to the dead for ever (1Co_15:13, 1Co_15:16). Many
in the ancient Church put off baptism till near death. This seems the
better view; though there may have been some rites of symbolical
baptism at Corinth, now unknown, perhaps grounded on Jesus' words
(Mat_20:22-23), which Paul here alludes to. The best punctuation is,
"If the dead rise not at all, why are they then baptized for them" (so
the oldest manuscripts read the last words, instead of "for the
dead")?
comments from JFB commentary
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