| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
20 Nov 2007 07:17:30 AM |
| Object: |
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM |
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM
Expectation of a "Romano-Judaic Eschaton" in First Century
BC/AD Judaism as Revealed in the Dead Sea Scrolls
"And we recognize that some of the blessings and curses
have come, (24) those written in the Bo[ok of Moses;
therefore this is the End of Days" (4Q397 - 399)
The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archeological finds are
pouring light onto the period of time reckoned by Preterists
as "the last days": AD 30-70. When fleeing Jerusalem
during the Roman siege, scribes sealed numerous texts
into the caves of the southwest Dead Sea area. A portion
of these was first discovered in 1947, with many more
finds since then. Below are excerpts from the various
scrolls. They collectively teach that they lived in "the
end of days" and that a ruler was coming out of the East
who would rule the world. Josephus and others reckoned
this figure with Roman general Vespasian, who was indeed
hailed Emperor by his legions while still in Palestine.
Regardless, the glory of Christ's throne outshines that of
Vespasian to this day, and shows no sign of diminishing.
The "War Scroll" pits the Romans against Israel, using the
term "Kittim" or "Chaldea" to refer to the Roman Empire.
The "Roman-Judean" end times view expressed in the
Dead Sea Scrolls is also precisely what was taught by
Daniel, Jesus, the first century Christians, and is also
what is believed by Preterist Christians today.
JEWISH SOURCES - Comments from Josephus, the Talmud,
Midrashim, and Apocalyptic Literature, including that found
in among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Contemporary Jewish
literature is also collected under the classification.
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM:
THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS AND "THE KITTIM"
DEAD SEA SCROLLS - Materials Unearthed From Judean
Wilderness (From roughly second century B.C. to A.D.68
- Color coded with Jewish Soures)
Kittim as Rome - Pre-Christian Preterism
Refugees from Jerusalem's besiegement stored numerous
documents east of the city near Qumran. Also found are
likely Essene sect scrolls (Calvinistic Apocalypticism).
They are all of utmost significance for first century
studies, and are highly preteristic -- the commentaries
(persherim) on Daniel and Habakkuk found among the
documents remarkably identify the Romans with the
apocalyptic nation referred to as "Chaldea" or "Kittim"
in Numbers 24:24 and Daniel 11:30, making it the
earliest known Preterist commentary (pre 68 B.C.)
This point is quite important, for if the Kittim of the Dead
Sea Scrolls is to be identified with Rome, then according
to their interpretation, the full scope of biblical prophecy
ends with reference to Rome. This is pre-christian
preterism indeed!
Numbers 24:24 (Balaam's prophecy) "But ships will come
from the coast of Kittim to subdue Ashur and subdue
'Ever, but they too will come to destruction. 25 Then Bil'am
got up, left and returned to his home; and Balak too went
his way.."
Daniel 11:30 (Daniel's prophecy) "For ships of Kittim shall
come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and shall
return, and have indignation against the holy covenant,
and shall do [his pleasure]: he shall even return, and have
regard to those who forsake the holy covenant. [Rendered
In the Latin Vulgate (A.D.405): 11:30 Et veniet super eum
Trieres, et Romani: Daniel 11:30 "For the Romans shall
come against him]
Habakkuk 1:6 (Habakkuk's prophecy) "For, behold, I raise
up the Kasdim, that bitter and hasty nation, that march
through the breadth of the eretz, to possess dwelling places
that are not theirs." (Jewish Names Bible)
The first scholar to investigate the scrolls seemed likewise
excited by this possibility: "The new leather fragment now
provided a first-century B.C.-A.D. testimony to the accuracy
of the text as it has been preserved - Kasidim was clearly
in the text used by the copyist. The next line, however,
begins, "Its interpretation concerns the Kittim....
"The modern theory had already been propounded by
interpretation by the ancient community two thousand
years earlier!" - John C. Trever, The Untold Story of Qumran
Habakkuk 1:6
"For, behold, I raise up the Kasdim, that bitter and hasty
nation, that march through the breadth of the eretz,
to possess dwelling places that are not theirs."
Comment:
"Its interpretation concerns the Kittim"
Closer Look at the Habakkuk Pesher
Kittim ..in Dead Sea Scrolls texts serves as a code word
for "Romans"
Habakkuk 1:11
"Then he sweeps by like the wind, and goes on.
He is indeed guilty, whose strength is his god."
Comment:
"Interpreted, [this concerns] the commanders of the
Kittim who, on the counsel of [the] House of Guilt,
pass one in front of the other; one after another
[their] commanders come to lay waste the earth."
'Kittim' as 'the Romans' interpretation early example of
precise preterist interpretations. The coming destruction
at the hands of a 'heathen power' was an ancient message,
dating before Moses' declarations in Deuteronomy 28.
However, the identification of this 'heathen power' as
Rome (Kittim) is found in Septuagint Daniel and the
Habakkuk Commentary found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Syriac Commentary on the Septuagint's Daniel dates
between 3rd century B.C. - 1st century B.C.; The "Habakkuk
Scroll" dates "prior to 63 B.C."
F.F. Bruce: New Testament History (Kittim is Rome)
"They believed that the iniquities of the Wicked Priest
and his associates would bring the judgement of God
upon them. As time went on, they came to see clearly
who would be the instruments of God's judgement.
God was raising up the 'Kittim' for this purpose, and by
the 'Kittim', as has been said above, they probably meant
the Romans. It was indeed the Romans who, by their
occupation of Judaea in 63 B.C., put an end to Hasmonaean
domination; but the Qumran community could see the shape
of things to come before that date. They also saw that the
Romans would exceed the terms of their commission and
incur the divine judgement themselves because of their
impiety and rapacity."
John Dominic Crosson "The Romans were not singled out as
much in their (Essene) secterian documents, although against
them, in their so-called War Scroll, they were preparing to
fight the ultimate apocalyptic battle. This was to take
place at the end time, when Sons of Light, the members
of the group, were to clash with the Sons of Darkness,
the Romans, code-named the Kittim. A battle against Rome
did take place eventually, when the Roman general and
soon-to-be emperor Vespasian marched through the area
on his way to Jerusalem in the early summer of 68 C.E.
But the Qumran Essenes' final battle did not end as the
War Scroll imagined. What de Vaux labeled and archeologists
still call Phase II of the site ended in fiery destruction,
with Roman arrowheads scattered around the site. In their
final desperate act, the members took and hid their sacred
scrolls in nearby caves, rolled up in storage jars with
bowls and lids, and they were not discovered again until
a Bedouin shepherd stumbled upon them in 1947."
(Excavating Jesus, p. 158)
Jones, Robert C. The Dead Sea Scrolls and Christianity
(1999) "“Kittim” Commentary on Habakkuk 1:17: “This
means the Kittim, who cause many to perish by the sword
– youths, men, and old men; women and little children –
and on the fruit of the womb have no mercy.” (Burrows,
p. 367) War Scroll: And the dominion of the Kittim shall
come to an end, so that wickedness shall be laid low
without any remnant; and there shall be no survivor
of the sons of darkness.” (Burrows, p. 390)
On Some Points Connected with the Essenes - Lightfoot
Dead Sea Scrolls: Reference Materials "It has also been
hypothesized that the Qumran scrolls are the secreted
library of a community, perhaps Essene, that lived at
Qumran, and thus survived the destruction of the settlement
in c.A.D. 68. Startling parallels in expression and thought
between the Qumran materials and the New Testament
have led to speculation as to their influence on early
Christianity." (Kittim: "Term appearing in the Dead Sea
Scrolls, used of the Romans. The Kittim are referred to
as warriors from the west, who capture Jerusalem."
Thanksgiving Hymn (I Cent.)
Scroll Fragments: Cave Tour
The Ballad of the White Horse (1911) - G.K. Chesterton
"For the White Horse knew England When there was none
to know; He saw the first oar break or bend, He saw heaven
fall and the world end, O God, how long ago.
For the end of the world was long ago, And all we dwell
to-day as children of some second birth, like a strange
people left on earth, After a judgment day.
For the end of the world was long ago, when the ends
of the world waxed free, when Rome was sunk in a waste
of slaves, And the sun drowned in the sea.
When Caesar's sun fell out of the sky, and whoso
hearkened right could only hear the plunging,
of the nations in the night.
When the ends of the earth came marching in, to torch
and cresset gleam. And the roads of the world that lead
to Rome, Were filled with faces that moved like foam,
like faces in a dream.
To see it all, please go to:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/index.html
--
To email me, just remove the underscores.
GODISNOWHERE (now read it again)
.
|
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| User: "Gunny Freedom" |
|
| Title: Re: PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM |
20 Nov 2007 04:13:14 PM |
|
|
In article <6jn5k395qbfilo861d95f0o785dt5pre10@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM
Expectation of a "Romano-Judaic Eschaton" in First Century
BC/AD Judaism as Revealed in the Dead Sea Scrolls
"And we recognize that some of the blessings and curses
have come, (24) those written in the Bo[ok of Moses;
therefore this is the End of Days" (4Q397 - 399)
The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archeological finds are
pouring light onto the period of time reckoned by Preterists
as "the last days": AD 30-70. When fleeing Jerusalem
during the Roman siege, scribes sealed numerous texts
into the caves of the southwest Dead Sea area. A portion
of these was first discovered in 1947, with many more
finds since then. Below are excerpts from the various
scrolls. They collectively teach that they lived in "the
end of days" and that a ruler was coming out of the East
who would rule the world. Josephus and others reckoned
this figure with Roman general Vespasian, who was indeed
hailed Emperor by his legions while still in Palestine.
Regardless, the glory of Christ's throne outshines that of
Vespasian to this day, and shows no sign of diminishing.
The "War Scroll" pits the Romans against Israel, using the
term "Kittim" or "Chaldea" to refer to the Roman Empire.
The "Roman-Judean" end times view expressed in the
Dead Sea Scrolls is also precisely what was taught by
Daniel, Jesus, the first century Christians, and is also
what is believed by Preterist Christians today.
JEWISH SOURCES - Comments from Josephus, the Talmud,
Midrashim, and Apocalyptic Literature, including that found
in among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Contemporary Jewish
literature is also collected under the classification.
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM:
THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS AND "THE KITTIM"
DEAD SEA SCROLLS - Materials Unearthed From Judean
Wilderness (From roughly second century B.C. to A.D.68
- Color coded with Jewish Soures)
Kittim as Rome - Pre-Christian Preterism
Refugees from Jerusalem's besiegement stored numerous
documents east of the city near Qumran. Also found are
likely Essene sect scrolls (Calvinistic Apocalypticism).
They are all of utmost significance for first century
studies, and are highly preteristic -- the commentaries
(persherim) on Daniel and Habakkuk found among the
documents remarkably identify the Romans with the
apocalyptic nation referred to as "Chaldea" or "Kittim"
in Numbers 24:24 and Daniel 11:30, making it the
earliest known Preterist commentary (pre 68 B.C.)
This point is quite important, for if the Kittim of the Dead
Sea Scrolls is to be identified with Rome, then according
to their interpretation, the full scope of biblical prophecy
ends with reference to Rome. This is pre-christian
preterism indeed!
Numbers 24:24 (Balaam's prophecy) "But ships will come
from the coast of Kittim to subdue Ashur and subdue
'Ever, but they too will come to destruction. 25 Then Bil'am
got up, left and returned to his home; and Balak too went
his way.."
Daniel 11:30 (Daniel's prophecy) "For ships of Kittim shall
come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and shall
return, and have indignation against the holy covenant,
and shall do [his pleasure]: he shall even return, and have
regard to those who forsake the holy covenant. [Rendered
In the Latin Vulgate (A.D.405): 11:30 Et veniet super eum
Trieres, et Romani: Daniel 11:30 "For the Romans shall
come against him]
Habakkuk 1:6 (Habakkuk's prophecy) "For, behold, I raise
up the Kasdim, that bitter and hasty nation, that march
through the breadth of the eretz, to possess dwelling places
that are not theirs." (Jewish Names Bible)
The first scholar to investigate the scrolls seemed likewise
excited by this possibility: "The new leather fragment now
provided a first-century B.C.-A.D. testimony to the accuracy
of the text as it has been preserved - Kasidim was clearly
in the text used by the copyist. The next line, however,
begins, "Its interpretation concerns the Kittim....
"The modern theory had already been propounded by
interpretation by the ancient community two thousand
years earlier!" - John C. Trever, The Untold Story of Qumran
Habakkuk 1:6
"For, behold, I raise up the Kasdim, that bitter and hasty
nation, that march through the breadth of the eretz,
to possess dwelling places that are not theirs."
Comment:
"Its interpretation concerns the Kittim"
Closer Look at the Habakkuk Pesher
Kittim ..in Dead Sea Scrolls texts serves as a code word
for "Romans"
Habakkuk 1:11
"Then he sweeps by like the wind, and goes on.
He is indeed guilty, whose strength is his god."
Comment:
"Interpreted, [this concerns] the commanders of the
Kittim who, on the counsel of [the] House of Guilt,
pass one in front of the other; one after another
[their] commanders come to lay waste the earth."
'Kittim' as 'the Romans' interpretation early example of
precise preterist interpretations. The coming destruction
at the hands of a 'heathen power' was an ancient message,
dating before Moses' declarations in Deuteronomy 28.
However, the identification of this 'heathen power' as
Rome (Kittim) is found in Septuagint Daniel and the
Habakkuk Commentary found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Syriac Commentary on the Septuagint's Daniel dates
between 3rd century B.C. - 1st century B.C.; The "Habakkuk
Scroll" dates "prior to 63 B.C."
F.F. Bruce: New Testament History (Kittim is Rome)
"They believed that the iniquities of the Wicked Priest
and his associates would bring the judgement of God
upon them. As time went on, they came to see clearly
who would be the instruments of God's judgement.
God was raising up the 'Kittim' for this purpose, and by
the 'Kittim', as has been said above, they probably meant
the Romans. It was indeed the Romans who, by their
occupation of Judaea in 63 B.C., put an end to Hasmonaean
domination; but the Qumran community could see the shape
of things to come before that date. They also saw that the
Romans would exceed the terms of their commission and
incur the divine judgement themselves because of their
impiety and rapacity."
John Dominic Crosson "The Romans were not singled out as
much in their (Essene) secterian documents, although against
them, in their so-called War Scroll, they were preparing to
fight the ultimate apocalyptic battle. This was to take
place at the end time, when Sons of Light, the members
of the group, were to clash with the Sons of Darkness,
the Romans, code-named the Kittim. A battle against Rome
did take place eventually, when the Roman general and
soon-to-be emperor Vespasian marched through the area
on his way to Jerusalem in the early summer of 68 C.E.
But the Qumran Essenes' final battle did not end as the
War Scroll imagined. What de Vaux labeled and archeologists
still call Phase II of the site ended in fiery destruction,
with Roman arrowheads scattered around the site. In their
final desperate act, the members took and hid their sacred
scrolls in nearby caves, rolled up in storage jars with
bowls and lids, and they were not discovered again until
a Bedouin shepherd stumbled upon them in 1947."
(Excavating Jesus, p. 158)
Jones, Robert C. The Dead Sea Scrolls and Christianity
(1999) "“Kittim” Commentary on Habakkuk 1:17: “This
means the Kittim, who cause many to perish by the sword
– youths, men, and old men; women and little children –
and on the fruit of the womb have no mercy.” (Burrows,
p. 367) War Scroll: And the dominion of the Kittim shall
come to an end, so that wickedness shall be laid low
without any remnant; and there shall be no survivor
of the sons of darkness.” (Burrows, p. 390)
On Some Points Connected with the Essenes - Lightfoot
Dead Sea Scrolls: Reference Materials "It has also been
hypothesized that the Qumran scrolls are the secreted
library of a community, perhaps Essene, that lived at
Qumran, and thus survived the destruction of the settlement
in c.A.D. 68. Startling parallels in expression and thought
between the Qumran materials and the New Testament
have led to speculation as to their influence on early
Christianity." (Kittim: "Term appearing in the Dead Sea
Scrolls, used of the Romans. The Kittim are referred to
as warriors from the west, who capture Jerusalem."
Thanksgiving Hymn (I Cent.)
Scroll Fragments: Cave Tour
The Ballad of the White Horse (1911) - G.K. Chesterton
"For the White Horse knew England When there was none
to know; He saw the first oar break or bend, He saw heaven
fall and the world end, O God, how long ago.
For the end of the world was long ago, And all we dwell
to-day as children of some second birth, like a strange
people left on earth, After a judgment day.
For the end of the world was long ago, when the ends
of the world waxed free, when Rome was sunk in a waste
of slaves, And the sun drowned in the sea.
When Caesar's sun fell out of the sky, and whoso
hearkened right could only hear the plunging,
of the nations in the night.
When the ends of the earth came marching in, to torch
and cresset gleam. And the roads of the world that lead
to Rome, Were filled with faces that moved like foam,
like faces in a dream.
To see it all, please go to:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/index.html
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC to debate Preterism. After
only 2-3 rounds of discussion, he abandons any attempt to debate the
theology and the facts, and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to "declare victory" simply
by overwhelming us with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
Note especially in the list below, that all 40 messages were posted
within the span of 6 minutes:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PING: CHUCK - What Will You Say? 42
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Ancient Quotes - Church Fathers? 292
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Resurrection of the Dead 771
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
REVELATION: WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN??? 534
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: Preterist Statements 655
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 1 46
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 2 360
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Significance of 70 AD 456
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: WILL YOU LIVE UP TO YOUR WORD OR NOT??? 172
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Irenaeus: 70 AD & Abrahamic Covenant 117
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Comments by Epiphanes 44
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cool Info with Lots of Links to Writings Throughout Time 15
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Israel and the Church 72
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Justin Martyr: Sword , Plowshares and the Kingdom 59
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Clement: Abomination of Desolation 52
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Origen: Literal Interpretation Method 63
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Got Preterism? The Church Fathers' Did! 169
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eusebius: Fulfilled 21
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Shake, Ratte and Roll! 336
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
* Christ and the Resurrection of the Flesh * 895
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cloud Coming Recorded by Historians 54
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Church History 82
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Seige of Jerusalem 830
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: AND HERE IS HOW IT ENDED BETWEEN US!!!
386 11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Historical Church Says Christ Returned! 322
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM 224
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who IS Israel 184
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
IF CHRIST HAS NOT COME! 407
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Preterism, Society and the Modern Church; Tackling the Taboo’s 214
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology in American History 231
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
God's Israel Identity 144
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology Failed!!! 360
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Dating of the Book of Revelation 399
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint 183
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Dating of the Book of Revelation - More Info! 471
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CLOUD COMING OF JESUS RECORDED!!! 328
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Crying Voices of the Great Tribulation. 183
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who Was the Beast and What Was the Mark? 20
11/20/07 8:20 AM
--
Gunny Freedom's Blog: http://libertyline.blogspot.com/
Gunny's Hangout: http://www.rwva.org/yabbse/index.php "Liberty's Price"
Become a Rifleman: http://appleseedinfo.org/
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM |
21 Nov 2007 06:01:08 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:13:14 -0500, Gunny Freedom
<glen42@gmail.com> decided to enlighten us by typing the
following:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC
to debate Preterism. After only 2-3 rounds
of discussion, he abandons any attempt to
debate the theology and the facts
You have this backwards. And the posts that
I wrote, were in response to those of Futurists
"spamming" and attacking me personally.
And where is the "2 or 3 rounds of discussion"?
You attacked me immediately!
Let us note that you immediately responded by
attacking the person while ignoring the content
of the post.
and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
I don't think it was that many, but whatever.
People send a bunch of posts all the time
and you don't say a word, which proves that
your mission is to try to censor content that
you can't handle and that conflicts with your
own personal doctrine.
And yes, I write some and copy & paste some.
What is your problem with that? You never say
a word when Futurists do it. Why is that?
You wouldn't be a hypocrite, would you?
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to
"declare victory" simply by overwhelming us
with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
The victory is Christ's. Something that YOU don't
believe has happened yet! But HE IS LORD NOW,
whether you wish to believe it or not!
As for you Futurists, I am not worried about
"declaring victory" over you, nor your doctrine,
since you never discuss it intelligently nor
reasonably anyway and just attack me after
one or two posts, when you see that your
doctrine is falling apart!
Of course, some people, like you, don't even
get that far and just immediately attack!
So let us note that now, once again, you have
proven to us that instead of discussing the issue
presented, you thought it best to attack me
personally instead. And yet, here you are,
hypocritically claiming that I'm the one who
refuses to debate an issue. <chuckle>
And btw, falsely labeling something "spam",
just because you don't like what it says,
only further proves your dishonesty and
lack of integrity.
Note especially in the list below, that all
40 messages were posted within the span
of 6 minutes:
I don't believe it was that high, but let us note that
you are going into one thread after another, posting
this response in each and every one of them.
Doesn't that make YOU guilty of "spamming us"
with 40 posts as well?
Oh no, wait, that's right! Futurists can't be guilty
of their own sins! <chuckle>
--
To email me, just remove the underscores.
"The only place you find chaos in the universe
is in mans' heart." - Vume
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM |
21 Nov 2007 01:15:42 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:13:14 -0500, Gunny Freedom
wrote:
In article <6jn5k395qbfilo861d95f0o785dt5pre10@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM
Expectation of a "Romano-Judaic Eschaton" in First Century
BC/AD Judaism as Revealed in the Dead Sea Scrolls
"And we recognize that some of the blessings and curses
have come, (24) those written in the Bo[ok of Moses;
therefore this is the End of Days" (4Q397 - 399)
The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archeological finds are
pouring light onto the period of time reckoned by Preterists
as "the last days": AD 30-70. When fleeing Jerusalem
during the Roman siege, scribes sealed numerous texts
into the caves of the southwest Dead Sea area. A portion
of these was first discovered in 1947, with many more
finds since then. Below are excerpts from the various
scrolls. They collectively teach that they lived in "the
end of days" and that a ruler was coming out of the East
who would rule the world. Josephus and others reckoned
this figure with Roman general Vespasian, who was indeed
hailed Emperor by his legions while still in Palestine.
Regardless, the glory of Christ's throne outshines that of
Vespasian to this day, and shows no sign of diminishing.
The "War Scroll" pits the Romans against Israel, using the
term "Kittim" or "Chaldea" to refer to the Roman Empire.
The "Roman-Judean" end times view expressed in the
Dead Sea Scrolls is also precisely what was taught by
Daniel, Jesus, the first century Christians, and is also
what is believed by Preterist Christians today.
JEWISH SOURCES - Comments from Josephus, the Talmud,
Midrashim, and Apocalyptic Literature, including that found
in among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Contemporary Jewish
literature is also collected under the classification.
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM:
THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS AND "THE KITTIM"
DEAD SEA SCROLLS - Materials Unearthed From Judean
Wilderness (From roughly second century B.C. to A.D.68
- Color coded with Jewish Soures)
Kittim as Rome - Pre-Christian Preterism
Refugees from Jerusalem's besiegement stored numerous
documents east of the city near Qumran. Also found are
likely Essene sect scrolls (Calvinistic Apocalypticism).
They are all of utmost significance for first century
studies, and are highly preteristic -- the commentaries
(persherim) on Daniel and Habakkuk found among the
documents remarkably identify the Romans with the
apocalyptic nation referred to as "Chaldea" or "Kittim"
in Numbers 24:24 and Daniel 11:30, making it the
earliest known Preterist commentary (pre 68 B.C.)
This point is quite important, for if the Kittim of the Dead
Sea Scrolls is to be identified with Rome, then according
to their interpretation, the full scope of biblical prophecy
ends with reference to Rome. This is pre-christian
preterism indeed!
Numbers 24:24 (Balaam's prophecy) "But ships will come
from the coast of Kittim to subdue Ashur and subdue
'Ever, but they too will come to destruction. 25 Then Bil'am
got up, left and returned to his home; and Balak too went
his way.."
Daniel 11:30 (Daniel's prophecy) "For ships of Kittim shall
come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and shall
return, and have indignation against the holy covenant,
and shall do [his pleasure]: he shall even return, and have
regard to those who forsake the holy covenant. [Rendered
In the Latin Vulgate (A.D.405): 11:30 Et veniet super eum
Trieres, et Romani: Daniel 11:30 "For the Romans shall
come against him]
Habakkuk 1:6 (Habakkuk's prophecy) "For, behold, I raise
up the Kasdim, that bitter and hasty nation, that march
through the breadth of the eretz, to possess dwelling places
that are not theirs." (Jewish Names Bible)
The first scholar to investigate the scrolls seemed likewise
excited by this possibility: "The new leather fragment now
provided a first-century B.C.-A.D. testimony to the accuracy
of the text as it has been preserved - Kasidim was clearly
in the text used by the copyist. The next line, however,
begins, "Its interpretation concerns the Kittim....
"The modern theory had already been propounded by
interpretation by the ancient community two thousand
years earlier!" - John C. Trever, The Untold Story of Qumran
Habakkuk 1:6
"For, behold, I raise up the Kasdim, that bitter and hasty
nation, that march through the breadth of the eretz,
to possess dwelling places that are not theirs."
Comment:
"Its interpretation concerns the Kittim"
Closer Look at the Habakkuk Pesher
Kittim ..in Dead Sea Scrolls texts serves as a code word
for "Romans"
Habakkuk 1:11
"Then he sweeps by like the wind, and goes on.
He is indeed guilty, whose strength is his god."
Comment:
"Interpreted, [this concerns] the commanders of the
Kittim who, on the counsel of [the] House of Guilt,
pass one in front of the other; one after another
[their] commanders come to lay waste the earth."
'Kittim' as 'the Romans' interpretation early example of
precise preterist interpretations. The coming destruction
at the hands of a 'heathen power' was an ancient message,
dating before Moses' declarations in Deuteronomy 28.
However, the identification of this 'heathen power' as
Rome (Kittim) is found in Septuagint Daniel and the
Habakkuk Commentary found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Syriac Commentary on the Septuagint's Daniel dates
between 3rd century B.C. - 1st century B.C.; The "Habakkuk
Scroll" dates "prior to 63 B.C."
F.F. Bruce: New Testament History (Kittim is Rome)
"They believed that the iniquities of the Wicked Priest
and his associates would bring the judgement of God
upon them. As time went on, they came to see clearly
who would be the instruments of God's judgement.
God was raising up the 'Kittim' for this purpose, and by
the 'Kittim', as has been said above, they probably meant
the Romans. It was indeed the Romans who, by their
occupation of Judaea in 63 B.C., put an end to Hasmonaean
domination; but the Qumran community could see the shape
of things to come before that date. They also saw that the
Romans would exceed the terms of their commission and
incur the divine judgement themselves because of their
impiety and rapacity."
John Dominic Crosson "The Romans were not singled out as
much in their (Essene) secterian documents, although against
them, in their so-called War Scroll, they were preparing to
fight the ultimate apocalyptic battle. This was to take
place at the end time, when Sons of Light, the members
of the group, were to clash with the Sons of Darkness,
the Romans, code-named the Kittim. A battle against Rome
did take place eventually, when the Roman general and
soon-to-be emperor Vespasian marched through the area
on his way to Jerusalem in the early summer of 68 C.E.
But the Qumran Essenes' final battle did not end as the
War Scroll imagined. What de Vaux labeled and archeologists
still call Phase II of the site ended in fiery destruction,
with Roman arrowheads scattered around the site. In their
final desperate act, the members took and hid their sacred
scrolls in nearby caves, rolled up in storage jars with
bowls and lids, and they were not discovered again until
a Bedouin shepherd stumbled upon them in 1947."
(Excavating Jesus, p. 158)
Jones, Robert C. The Dead Sea Scrolls and Christianity
(1999) "“Kittim” Commentary on Habakkuk 1:17: “This
means the Kittim, who cause many to perish by the sword
– youths, men, and old men; women and little children –
and on the fruit of the womb have no mercy.” (Burrows,
p. 367) War Scroll: And the dominion of the Kittim shall
come to an end, so that wickedness shall be laid low
without any remnant; and there shall be no survivor
of the sons of darkness.” (Burrows, p. 390)
On Some Points Connected with the Essenes - Lightfoot
Dead Sea Scrolls: Reference Materials "It has also been
hypothesized that the Qumran scrolls are the secreted
library of a community, perhaps Essene, that lived at
Qumran, and thus survived the destruction of the settlement
in c.A.D. 68. Startling parallels in expression and thought
between the Qumran materials and the New Testament
have led to speculation as to their influence on early
Christianity." (Kittim: "Term appearing in the Dead Sea
Scrolls, used of the Romans. The Kittim are referred to
as warriors from the west, who capture Jerusalem."
Thanksgiving Hymn (I Cent.)
Scroll Fragments: Cave Tour
The Ballad of the White Horse (1911) - G.K. Chesterton
"For the White Horse knew England When there was none
to know; He saw the first oar break or bend, He saw heaven
fall and the world end, O God, how long ago.
For the end of the world was long ago, And all we dwell
to-day as children of some second birth, like a strange
people left on earth, After a judgment day.
For the end of the world was long ago, when the ends
of the world waxed free, when Rome was sunk in a waste
of slaves, And the sun drowned in the sea.
When Caesar's sun fell out of the sky, and whoso
hearkened right could only hear the plunging,
of the nations in the night.
When the ends of the earth came marching in, to torch
and cresset gleam. And the roads of the world that lead
to Rome, Were filled with faces that moved like foam,
like faces in a dream.
To see it all, please go to:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/index.html
The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC to debate Preterism. After
only 2-3 rounds of discussion, he abandons any attempt to debate the
theology and the facts, and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to "declare victory" simply
by overwhelming us with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!
Note especially in the list below, that all 40 messages were posted
within the span of 6 minutes:
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PING: CHUCK - What Will You Say? 42
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Ancient Quotes - Church Fathers? 292
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Resurrection of the Dead 771
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
REVELATION: WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN??? 534
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: Preterist Statements 655
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 1 46
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 2 360
11/20/07 8:14 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Significance of 70 AD 456
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: WILL YOU LIVE UP TO YOUR WORD OR NOT??? 172
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Irenaeus: 70 AD & Abrahamic Covenant 117
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Comments by Epiphanes 44
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cool Info with Lots of Links to Writings Throughout Time 15
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Israel and the Church 72
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Justin Martyr: Sword , Plowshares and the Kingdom 59
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Clement: Abomination of Desolation 52
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Origen: Literal Interpretation Method 63
11/20/07 8:15 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Got Preterism? The Church Fathers' Did! 169
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eusebius: Fulfilled 21
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Shake, Ratte and Roll! 336
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
* Christ and the Resurrection of the Flesh * 895
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cloud Coming Recorded by Historians 54
11/20/07 8:16 AM
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Church History 82
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Seige of Jerusalem 830
11/20/07 8:16 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: AND HERE IS HOW IT ENDED BETWEEN US!!!
386 11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Historical Church Says Christ Returned! 322
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM 224
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who IS Israel 184
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
IF CHRIST HAS NOT COME! 407
11/20/07 8:17 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Preterism, Society and the Modern Church; Tackling the Taboo’s 214
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology in American History 231
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
God's Israel Identity 144
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology Failed!!! 360
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Dating of the Book of Revelation 399
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint 183
11/20/07 8:18 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Dating of the Book of Revelation - More Info! 471
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CLOUD COMING OF JESUS RECORDED!!! 328
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Crying Voices of the Great Tribulation. 183
11/20/07 8:19 AM
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who Was the Beast and What Was the Mark? 20
11/20/07 8:20 AM
You say Dave challenged ACC to debate Preterism.
However it seems to me that you were one of those
planning an offensive against Preterism! Are you
feeling overwhelmed by only 40 posts by Dave? I expect
we could find several hundred more easily. But then I
thought you said that Preterism is something that noone
really believes in, and that there is no support for
Preterism. Now you can't handle 40 posts. What sort
of offensive is this! You should have stayed home!
So this is your best response to content, is to spam us
with your lack of content! (Smirk) Please Glen,
psalmsmith, gunny freedom, you must have something
important to run off and do! Why do you waste our time?
Maybe you would prefer to check into some of your other
schemes which you have brought up and then run from
when it came time to really explain and support with
scripture. We can search the archives and find those
threads, if you would like to explain yourself now!
Where are your friends Chuck and Baba? Did they leave
you here all alone? After planning this masterful
offensive of presenting the wisdom of the Church
fathers. I would say you got left holding the bag!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residences!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
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