| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"SJAB1958" |
| Date: |
30 Oct 2005 09:22:45 AM |
| Object: |
Predestination or Free Will? |
If God is all-knowing, this means He knows everything that is going to
happen and when. By implication this means everything is predestined to
happen, so how can we have free will?
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| User: "Bills Garden" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
30 Oct 2005 09:53:14 AM |
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"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130685765.772847.94200@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
If God is all-knowing, this means He knows everything that is going to
happen and when. By implication this means everything is predestined to
happen, so how can we have free will?
If God is indeed omniscient, we can't have free will...period!
Shalom,
Bill
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
30 Oct 2005 09:29:46 PM |
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"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130685765.772847.94200@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
If God is all-knowing, this means He knows everything that is going to
happen and when. By implication this means everything is predestined to
happen, so how can we have free will?
Oh, great, another one coming back to beat the dead horse to death all over
again.
Will and destiny are two lines moving in opposite directions, God knowing
the end of all things, but not telling anyone their part in the story so
that the results that come at the end of the story become the basis for the
facts that start the story.
Ike
--
Don't put a period where God put a question mark.
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now one of Amazon's top 100 books on Bible prophecy.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
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| User: "SJAB1958" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
31 Oct 2005 12:44:21 AM |
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H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
Oh, great, another one coming back to beat the dead horse to death all over
again.
Will and destiny are two lines moving in opposite directions, God knowing
the end of all things, but not telling anyone their part in the story so
that the results that come at the end of the story become the basis for the
facts that start the story.
Ike
This comment doesnt make any sense in relation to the question I
originally asked. But if you are familiar with it, could you enlighten
me please?
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
31 Oct 2005 08:20:20 AM |
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"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130741061.906888.73560@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
Oh, great, another one coming back to beat the dead horse to death all
over
again.
Will and destiny are two lines moving in opposite directions, God knowing
the end of all things, but not telling anyone their part in the story so
that the results that come at the end of the story become the basis for
the
facts that start the story.
Ike
This comment doesn't make any sense in relation to the question I
originally asked. But if you are familiar with it, could you enlighten
me please?
It makes perfect sense: You asked how we can have free will if God is
omniscient.
If God doesn't tell you your destiny, and gives you instructions to follow
(for example, "behold, I stand at the door and knock: Whosever opens..."),
then the ball is in your court, and a response is required). Even though God
already knows the results of the story ("foreknown") that come at the end of
the story (i.e. the judgment), personal responsibility for responding to the
Gospel message still rests on us.
Though the argument rages between one point of view or the other, the whole
thing is actually a dualism contingent upon three-dimensional (as opposed to
two-dimensional) time.
Ike
--
Don't put a period where God put a question mark.
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
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| User: "Pulpitfire" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
31 Oct 2005 05:48:19 AM |
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I believe there is a difference between verses that say something like
"whosoever will", and the "free will" of man. It's true that whosoever will
trust Christ as Savior, will be saved. But in man's fallen condition, he is
mentally darkened, morally depraved, and satanically blinded (Eph. 4 - 5; 2
Cor. 4). No fallen man has the will to trust Christ as Savior, unless God
works in him "both to will and to do of His pleasure" (Php. 2:13).
Romans 9 anticipates men will then object that if God is sovereign in the
salvation of man, "who can resist His will", and why are men at fault who
fail to trust in Him? The response God gives is that 1) There is no
injustice in God, 2) God can do whatever He wants with what He creates, 3)
no man inherantly deserves salvation, and 4) the creature does not have the
right to question the creator. Which leads us to only one solution, found
in Romans 11. That is that God's ways in salvation (both His kindness to
those He shows favor to and His severeity to those He does not) exceed our
comprehension, and we do not qualify to counsel Him. We just have to accept
that we do not understand everything, and that God is both sovereign and
just in the salvation of sinners.
"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130685765.772847.94200@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
If God is all-knowing, this means He knows everything that is going to
happen and when. By implication this means everything is predestined to
happen, so how can we have free will?
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
31 Oct 2005 08:23:41 AM |
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"Pulpitfire" <anon@anon.com> wrote in message
news:7wn9f.504609$_o.46927@attbi_s71...
I believe there is a difference between verses that say something like
"whosoever will", and the "free will" of man. It's true that whosoever
will
trust Christ as Savior, will be saved. But in man's fallen condition, he
is
mentally darkened, morally depraved, and satanically blinded (Eph. 4 - 5;
2
Cor. 4). No fallen man has the will to trust Christ as Savior, unless God
works in him "both to will and to do of His pleasure" (Php. 2:13).
Romans 9 anticipates men will then object that if God is sovereign in the
salvation of man, "who can resist His will", and why are men at fault who
fail to trust in Him? The response God gives is that 1) There is no
injustice in God, 2) God can do whatever He wants with what He creates, 3)
no man inherently deserves salvation, and 4) the creature does not have
the
right to question the creator. Which leads us to only one solution, found
in Romans 11. That is that God's ways in salvation (both His kindness to
those He shows favor to and His severity to those He does not) exceed our
comprehension, and we do not qualify to counsel Him. We just have to
accept
that we do not understand everything, and that God is both sovereign and
just in the salvation of sinners.
Nah. That's stoicism.
Paul took on both the stoicists and the epicureans, representing the
extremes of religious thought on the subject at the time.
Paul (as well as the rest of the New Testament writers) went on to insert a
third viewpoint: Determinism and will are both counterbalancing forces at
work in the world.
Ike
--
Don't put a period where God put a question mark.
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
.
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| User: "SJAB1958" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
31 Oct 2005 01:40:56 PM |
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and still nobody can answer my simple question. not even 'pastor' dave.
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| User: "Pulpitfire" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
31 Oct 2005 04:12:57 PM |
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My answer basically was that Adam had a free will before the fall, but since
then, we are spiritually dead, mentally darkened, and morally depraved (Eph.
2 - 4), so we do not have the capability of choosing God (free will), unless
He works in us to will and do of His good pleasure (Php. 2:13).
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead. Rely on this
finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10).
www.pulpitfire.org
"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130787656.685351.205410@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
and still nobody can answer my simple question. not even 'pastor' dave.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
31 Oct 2005 05:56:23 PM |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:12:57 GMT, "Pulpitfire"
<anon@anon.com> spake thusly:
My answer basically was that Adam had a free will before the fall, but since
then, we are spiritually dead, mentally darkened, and morally depraved (Eph.
2 - 4), so we do not have the capability of choosing God (free will), unless
He works in us to will and do of His good pleasure (Php. 2:13).
Again, FYI, you are being rude. This isn't email. Top
posting is considered rude and annoying, because it confuses
the flow of the conversation, as to who said what, when,
when you have people top and bottom posting. You are not
saving any scrolling time for others, since they would have
to scroll down to see what you are responding to anyway and
with your method, they would have to scroll up and down
repeatedly, trying to sort out the order of statements.
That is, of course, if you left the statements intact. As
it sits now, the text before what you said gets deleted,
since the message gets cut at your signature, which is above
the text you are responding to and that means what everyone
before you said, disappears when some hits the "Reply"
button. (:
Please correct this behavior. You will find that if you
don't, there are people (myself included) who simply will
not have a discussion with you, because of this.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
The end timers believe in a literal, physical
New Jerusalem. But is that what Scripture teaches?
No, it doesn't! So what is the New Jerusalem? It
is amazing what the end timers miss, especially
since it is stated clearly that the New Jerusalem
is the bride of Christ, the church.
Revelation 21:1,9-10
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the
first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
9) And one of the seven angels who had the seven
vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and
talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you
the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great
and high mountain and showed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God
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| User: "Pulpitfire" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
01 Nov 2005 05:39:21 AM |
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"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1kbdm1dg2nccdjagn5lskgcmrp045aaif0@4ax.com...
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:12:57 GMT, "Pulpitfire"
<anon@anon.com> spake thusly:
My answer basically was that Adam had a free will before the fall, but
since
then, we are spiritually dead, mentally darkened, and morally depraved
(Eph.
2 - 4), so we do not have the capability of choosing God (free will),
unless
He works in us to will and do of His good pleasure (Php. 2:13).
Again, FYI, you are being rude. This isn't email. Top
posting is considered rude and annoying, because it confuses
the flow of the conversation, as to who said what, when,
when you have people top and bottom posting. You are not
saving any scrolling time for others, since they would have
to scroll down to see what you are responding to anyway and
with your method, they would have to scroll up and down
repeatedly, trying to sort out the order of statements.
That is, of course, if you left the statements intact. As
it sits now, the text before what you said gets deleted,
since the message gets cut at your signature, which is above
the text you are responding to and that means what everyone
before you said, disappears when some hits the "Reply"
button. (:
Please correct this behavior. You will find that if you
don't, there are people (myself included) who simply will
not have a discussion with you, because of this.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
The end timers believe in a literal, physical
New Jerusalem. But is that what Scripture teaches?
No, it doesn't! So what is the New Jerusalem? It
is amazing what the end timers miss, especially
since it is stated clearly that the New Jerusalem
is the bride of Christ, the church.
Revelation 21:1,9-10
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the
first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
9) And one of the seven angels who had the seven
vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and
talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you
the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great
and high mountain and showed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God
As I said in another post, it is unnitentional. My news reader
automatically puts my reply at the top, along with my signiture, the minute
I hit reply. Unless and until I can figure out how to adjust this thing, I
have to manually cut and paste my reply at the bottom. I think it's rude to
call someone rude--as if they are intentionally trying to irritate
people--when it was an automatic function of the program I'm using, and when
I'm trying to correct it.
.
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| User: "SJAB1958" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
01 Nov 2005 01:21:38 AM |
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i wasnt talking about Adam, I was talking about humanity in general.
And my point still isnt being answered properly.
To put it another way, if God knows all that is going to happen that
implies everything is predestined. So if everything is predestined to
happen what happens to free-will?
.
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| User: "Pulpitfire" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
01 Nov 2005 05:42:50 AM |
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"SJAB1958" <balfres@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130829698.183977.225760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
i wasnt talking about Adam, I was talking about humanity in general.
And my point still isnt being answered properly.
To put it another way, if God knows all that is going to happen that
implies everything is predestined. So if everything is predestined to
happen what happens to free-will?
In the simplest way I can describe my view:
There is no "free will", in the sense that man has the capability to choose
for God. The fall of man, rendered him spiritually dead, mentally darkened,
and morally depraved, so that salvation now requires God to work in man both
to will and do of His pleasure (Php. 2:13).
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead. Rely on this
finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10).
www.pulpitfire.org
.
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| User: "Steven J." |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
01 Nov 2005 10:42:51 AM |
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SJAB1958 wrote:
i wasnt talking about Adam, I was talking about humanity in general.
And my point still isnt being answered properly.
To put it another way, if God knows all that is going to happen that
implies everything is predestined. So if everything is predestined to
happen what happens to free-will?
I attempted, above, to suggest an answer to that question. I do not
know whether the answer did not appear in your newsreader (in which
case I suppose I can repost it), or if you thought it too absurd to
comment on, or simply irrelevant to your request (though it seemed
relevant enough from where I'm standing).
-- Steven J.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
31 Oct 2005 07:31:18 AM |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:48:19 GMT, "Pulpitfire"
<anon@anon.com> spake thusly:
I believe there is a difference between verses that say something like
"whosoever will", and the "free will" of man.
Whosoever will does not automatically imply man's free will.
John 6:44 teaches us that no one comes to Christ unless
the Father drags them (that's what the Greek word means)
to the Son and Ephesians 1 teaches us that the elect are
predestined. Just the word "elect" alone should tell us
what we need to know. :)
I.e., "whosoever wills", because the Father drags them.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
The end timers believe in a literal, physical
New Jerusalem. But is that what Scripture teaches?
No, it doesn't! So what is the New Jerusalem? It
is amazing what the end timers miss, especially
since it is stated clearly that the New Jerusalem
is the bride of Christ, the church.
Revelation 21:1,9-10
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the
first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
9) And one of the seven angels who had the seven
vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and
talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you
the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great
and high mountain and showed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God
.
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| User: "Brandon" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
31 Oct 2005 11:07:17 PM |
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Whosoever will does not automatically imply man's free will.
John 6:44 teaches us that no one comes to Christ unless
the Father drags them (that's what the Greek word means)
to the Son and Ephesians 1 teaches us that the elect are
predestined. Just the word "elect" alone should tell us
what we need to know. :)
I.e., "whosoever wills", because the Father drags them.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
I'm sorry Pastor Dave, but the Gr. word "helkuo", or "helko" means draw
(like it appears in most translations) without necessarily the notion of
force. It can not be translated "drag". Ref. "The Complete Word Study
Dictionary, Spiros Zodhiates", p.568.
It's is the same word used in Jn 12:32, Jesus will "draw" all unto himself.
If I translated it "drag all unto him" then all would be saved, of course
that is not what you or I believe. Look at Jn 21:6, the same Gr. word draw
is used referring to Peter not being able to pull in the net for it was too
full of fish. The word "draw" has no power of it's own. The Gr. suro, means
to drag like in Jn 21:8.
From the verse 6:44, there is no implication of "how" God draws us. But look
at 45. We are drawn by hearing and understanding the word. Romans 10:17
"Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the
word of Christ." I make the choice to hear or not to hear. Most of the first
chapter of John tells up that we are drawn to the light which is Christ. A
moth is drawn to a flame, but is not dragged to the flame. Being drawn to
something implies that I have the ability to resist that drawing, else all
men would be saved. You must take both verses 6:44 and 6:45 together, 6:44
does not stand alone in explaining how we are drawn.
Jesus is clear that All men are drawn, Jn 12:32. John 1:9 says Jesus is "the
true light that give light to every man". And Romans 1:20 says that because
of God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and diving nature, all men
are without excuse. If all men are drawn, and not all men accept Christ,
then man must have a choice in the matter.
As far as the elect and free will, What are they elected to? If your answer
to unto salvation, please support with scripture. The elect is defiantly a
set apart group, but it is they that chose God. In Romans 11:9, God chose a
remnant according to the election of grace. But the condition of their
choosing was their faith, for they did not bow to the image of Baal. In
Romans 8:29 - 30, God foreknew the elect, thus he predestined them to be
conformed to the image of his Son. Those that choose God, he promises to
lift them up and make them in the likeness of this Son's image. Eph 1:5.
Being able to know future events does not mean that you will them to happen.
I can know when Halley's comet will return, but I do not make the returning
happen because of my knowledge of orbits, and physics.
If I do not have a free will, then I serve a God who shows partiality. This
goes against Romans 2:10 and 10:12. If I do not have a free will, then why
does God desire all men to be saved? 1 Tim 2:3. And is not willing that none
should perish. 2 Pet. 3:9. If there is not free will, and clearly some will
be saved, and some will be lost, then why is Christ a propitiation for our
sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world? 1 John 2:2, John
3:16
Brandon
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:q17cm1d8kg1ucer5q0u7i67hth4kknbn60@4ax.com...
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:48:19 GMT, "Pulpitfire"
<anon@anon.com> spake thusly:
I believe there is a difference between verses that say something like
"whosoever will", and the "free will" of man.
Whosoever will does not automatically imply man's free will.
John 6:44 teaches us that no one comes to Christ unless
the Father drags them (that's what the Greek word means)
to the Son and Ephesians 1 teaches us that the elect are
predestined. Just the word "elect" alone should tell us
what we need to know. :)
I.e., "whosoever wills", because the Father drags them.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
The end timers believe in a literal, physical
New Jerusalem. But is that what Scripture teaches?
No, it doesn't! So what is the New Jerusalem? It
is amazing what the end timers miss, especially
since it is stated clearly that the New Jerusalem
is the bride of Christ, the church.
Revelation 21:1,9-10
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the
first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
9) And one of the seven angels who had the seven
vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and
talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you
the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great
and high mountain and showed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
01 Nov 2005 01:17:29 AM |
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On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 05:07:17 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Whosoever will does not automatically imply man's free will.
John 6:44 teaches us that no one comes to Christ unless
the Father drags them (that's what the Greek word means)
to the Son and Ephesians 1 teaches us that the elect are
predestined. Just the word "elect" alone should tell us
what we need to know. :)
I.e., "whosoever wills", because the Father drags them.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
I'm sorry Pastor Dave, but the Gr. word "helkuo", or "helko" means draw
(like it appears in most translations) without necessarily the notion of
force. It can not be translated "drag". Ref. "The Complete Word Study
Dictionary, Spiros Zodhiates", p.568.
I'm sorry, but that is not true and you have been mislead by
someone who put together a book based on their own desires
and not what the word of God says.
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
It's is the same word used in Jn 12:32, Jesus will "draw" all unto himself.
And that speaks of predestination and the "all", is all
those who are predestined to be saved.
If I translated it "drag all unto him" then all would be saved, of course
that is not what you or I believe. Look at Jn 21:6, the same Gr. word draw
is used referring to Peter not being able to pull in the net for it was too
full of fish. The word "draw" has no power of it's own. The Gr. suro, means
to drag like in Jn 21:8.
No, sorry, Jesus did say "drag". The Bible teaches
predestination.
Ephesians 1:3-5
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in
the heavenlies in Christ;
4) according as He chose us in Him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame
before Him in love,
5) having predestined us to the adoption of children by
Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure
of His will,
Note: "before the foundation of the world".
Note: "He chose us".
Note: "predestined".
Note: "His will".
You don't have a choice. It's His choice and by His will.
You cannot say that man chooses and then say that
God's in control. That is a contradiction. Either God
is in control, or He is not. Take your pick. You can't
have both. :)
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
The end timers believe in a literal, physical
New Jerusalem. But is that what Scripture teaches?
No, it doesn't! So what is the New Jerusalem? It
is amazing what the end timers miss, especially
since it is stated clearly that the New Jerusalem
is the bride of Christ, the church.
Revelation 21:1,9-10
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the
first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
9) And one of the seven angels who had the seven
vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and
talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you
the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great
and high mountain and showed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God
.
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| User: "Brandon" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
01 Nov 2005 03:39:55 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:o85em1haop63ho80o3ie8hkm00mvf7nqus@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 05:07:17 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Whosoever will does not automatically imply man's free will.
John 6:44 teaches us that no one comes to Christ unless
the Father drags them (that's what the Greek word means)
to the Son and Ephesians 1 teaches us that the elect are
predestined. Just the word "elect" alone should tell us
what we need to know. :)
I.e., "whosoever wills", because the Father drags them.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
I'm sorry Pastor Dave, but the Gr. word "helkuo", or "helko" means draw
(like it appears in most translations) without necessarily the notion of
force. It can not be translated "drag". Ref. "The Complete Word Study
Dictionary, Spiros Zodhiates", p.568.
I'm sorry, but that is not true and you have been mislead by
someone who put together a book based on their own desires
and not what the word of God says.
Maybe someday you can expound on that, I'd be interested in knowing more.
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw", less violent then Gr.
suro, "drag". So it's my two against your two. :) Of the seven times the
word is use in the NT, and in the 4 different bible translations I looked
at, it is translated either draw or drew. But debating on which dictionary
is correct is pointless. So lets say that God "drags" in Jn. 6:44, and Jesus
"drags" in 12:32. Is that correct?
It's is the same word used in Jn 12:32, Jesus will "draw" all unto
himself.
And that speaks of predestination and the "all", is all
those who are predestined to be saved.
So the questions is: Does Christ draw/drag everybody? Gr. "pas" is a very
strong use of "all". Christ draws all, where does it say he only draws the
predestined? Shouldn't John have used "few", or "some" instead of "all"?
If I translated it "drag all unto him" then all would be saved, of course
that is not what you or I believe. Look at Jn 21:6, the same Gr. word draw
is used referring to Peter not being able to pull in the net for it was
too
full of fish. The word "draw" has no power of it's own. The Gr. suro,
means
to drag like in Jn 21:8.
No, sorry, Jesus did say "drag". The Bible teaches
predestination.
I belive the bible teaches free will.
<snip from my orginal post>
If I do not have a free will, then I serve a God who shows partiality. This
goes against Romans 2:10 and 10:12. If I do not have a free will, then why
does God desire all men to be saved? 1 Tim 2:3. And is not willing that none
should perish. 2 Pet. 3:9. If there is not free will, and clearly some will
be saved, and some will be lost, then why is Christ a propitiation for our
sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world? 1 John 2:2, John
3:16
To not have free will, warps God atribute of Justice. How can he be Just and
send one to heaven, and another to hell when both are guilty of the same
crime. How can God punish and repremand those who do not have the ability to
change because God did not choose them? Romans 11:32 "...he might have mercy
upon all". (Gr. pas) But according to predestination God will not have mercy
on all, the un-predestined do not and will never have a chance for
salvation. 2 Pet 2:1, the Lord bought the false teachers. Why pay the
penalty for someone that will still be punished for the crime anyway. It's a
different story if I post your bail and you don't want to leave your jail
cell, but for me to post bail and it will still do not good...is a waste of
shed blood.
Ephesians 1:3-5
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in
the heavenlies in Christ;
4) according as He chose us in Him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame
before Him in love,
5) having predestined us to the adoption of children by
Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure
of His will,
Note: "before the foundation of the world".
Note: "He chose us".
But what did he chose us for? No where in Eph 1:3-5 does it say he chose us
unto salvation. He chose us unto spritual blessings. ie. Where does it say
that he choose some unto salvation, and others to damnation?
Note: "predestined".
He determined before hand that I would be adopted, and enjoy the blessings
of being one of his children. Rom 8:29-30 He foreknew me, he predestined me
to be conformed to the image of his Son, he called me, he justified me, then
he will glorify me. It all started with his foreknowledge.
Note: "His will".
You don't have a choice. It's His choice and by His will.
You cannot say that man chooses and then say that
God's in control. That is a contradiction. Either God
is in control, or He is not. Take your pick. You can't
have both. :)
Is God in control when I go against his will? A few questions so I might
know where your comming from. Can I go against God's will? In any fashion?
Are you supralapsarianism or infralapsarianism?
Thanks for you comments,
Brandon
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
The end timers believe in a literal, physical
New Jerusalem. But is that what Scripture teaches?
No, it doesn't! So what is the New Jerusalem? It
is amazing what the end timers miss, especially
since it is stated clearly that the New Jerusalem
is the bride of Christ, the church.
Revelation 21:1,9-10
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the
first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
9) And one of the seven angels who had the seven
vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and
talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you
the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great
and high mountain and showed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
01 Nov 2005 04:09:59 PM |
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On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:39:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw",
There is a difference between "translate" and "definition".
Strong's and Thayers contain Greek dictionaries.
It is as I said.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
The end timers believe in a literal, physical
New Jerusalem. But is that what Scripture teaches?
No, it doesn't! So what is the New Jerusalem? It
is amazing what the end timers miss, especially
since it is stated clearly that the New Jerusalem
is the bride of Christ, the church.
Revelation 21:1,9-10
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the
first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
9) And one of the seven angels who had the seven
vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and
talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you
the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great
and high mountain and showed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God
.
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| User: "Brandon" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
01 Nov 2005 04:51:04 PM |
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It's apparent you have not a leg to stand on. You have not provided support
when I asked, and you have not answered any of my questions.
Goodbye Dave
Brandon
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6spfm1ldjf3eaqg6pq1dgf3e8gr86i2hbr@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:39:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw",
There is a difference between "translate" and "definition".
Strong's and Thayers contain Greek dictionaries.
It is as I said.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
The end timers believe in a literal, physical
New Jerusalem. But is that what Scripture teaches?
No, it doesn't! So what is the New Jerusalem? It
is amazing what the end timers miss, especially
since it is stated clearly that the New Jerusalem
is the bride of Christ, the church.
Revelation 21:1,9-10
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the
first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
9) And one of the seven angels who had the seven
vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and
talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you
the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great
and high mountain and showed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
02 Nov 2005 01:00:24 PM |
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On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:51:04 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6spfm1ldjf3eaqg6pq1dgf3e8gr86i2hbr@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:39:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw",
There is a difference between "translate" and "definition".
Strong's and Thayers contain Greek dictionaries.
It is as I said.
It's apparent you have not a leg to stand on. You have not provided support
when I asked, and you have not answered any of my questions.
Goodbye Dave
Brandon
You are quite rude! Do you always speak to the pastor
of your church this way?
You believe what you want. If you think a translation
overrules the very definition of a Greek word, that's your
choice. That is not the reality of it however and the
passages showing predestination confirm that it isn't by
man's will that the elect are the elect. The very word
"elect" tells you all you need to know. God "elects" us.
Here are what various works say and then, after that,
I will show you the word usage in the NT, for every time
the Greek word appears in the NT.
And as for Vine's, it merely says that it is translated
as "draw". Vine's however, points you to the word "drag".
VINE'S:
HELKO÷ (e{lkw, (1670)) is translated to draw in the A.V., of
Acts 21:30 and Jas. 2:6; see Drag, No. 2.
Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New
Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981.
A CONCISE GREEK-ENGLISH DICTIONARY OF
THE NEW TESTAMENT - BARCLAY M. NEWMAN:
quote:ELKUW - draw, attract; drag (of coercion); haul in;
draw (of swords)?
BAUER, GINGRICH AND DANKER (BGAD):
quote:1. to drag, draw something as a sword or to haul a
net. pull or tug someone back and forth, mistreat someone.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
As for the usage of the word in the NT, it is very
revealing. And I mean the usage of the Greek word
and not what it is translated into. It is the original
Greek and its meanings in the Greek language that
matter, since the NT was originally written in Greek.
The word is used a few times in the NT. Let's look at all
of them and see what each usage reveals about the choice
of the person or object being "drawn", since that it what
the discussion is about. Not the "drawer", but the
"drawee", if you will. :)
The first one, is the one under dispute, but I will paste it
in here, since it is one of the times the Greek word
"helkuo" appears in the NT and I will place the Greek word
in parenthesis, immediately following the English word it is
translated into in the passage, so that there is no
confusion as to which word is under discussion. And keep in
mind, the question revolves around what choice the person or
object being drawn has, since our discussion is about
whether or not John 6:44 allows for the free will of man.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath
sent me draw (helkuo) him: and I will raise him up at the
last day." - John 6:44
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (helkuo)
all men unto me." - John 12:32
Now here, it is obvious that "all men" means all men who
will be saved, since not everyone in the world will be
saved, which is evident by the fact that people have died
without being saved. :) But this passage does not answer
the question, since it is like John 6:44. So we will
continue onward.
"But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress
you, and draw (helkuo) you before the judgment seats?"
- James 2:6
Now here, we have James saying that the rich men "draw"
them before the judgment seats (in secular court).
Tell me, what "choice" and "free will" did those people
have? If they fail to appear, will they not be arrested
and forced to appear? In fact, that's what happened
quite a bit in those days. They authorities came for
them, bound them and dragged them off.
The passage in James shows us that no choice on the part
of the person being "drawn" is allowed.
Let's look at the next one...
John 21:10-11
10) Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have
now caught.
11) Simon Peter went up, and drew (helkuo) the net to
land full of great fishes, a hundred and fifty and three:
and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
Now, what choice did the fish have, when Peter "drew"
them to shore? Did not Peter, in reality, have to DRAG
the net to shore? Using your logic, the fish had a choice
and decided to work with Peter and started hopping in
the net, toward shore, to help him out. :)
"And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains
was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew (helkuo)
them into the marketplace unto the rulers," - Acts 16:19
Now tell me, what choice did Paul and Silas have, when
the masters "drew" them into the marketplace and to
the rulers? Did they just "politely nudge" them and
nicely "request" that they come along?
It is clear that again, the "drawee" had ZERO choice
in the matter.
"And all the city was moved, and the people ran together:
and they took Paul, and drew (helkuo) him out of the temple:
and forthwith the doors were shut." - Acts 21:30
What choice did the drawee, Paul have, when "the people
ran together and drew him out of the temple"?
It is clear that once again, the drawee had ZERO choice
in the matter.
That is it. That is every usage of the word in the NT
and so, the only conclusion that can be drawn, is that
it is not a matter of man's free will in coming to God.
The Bible teaches very clearly that "the natural man
receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God". And before
we are born again, we are "natural men". Yet you want me
to believe that we somehow make that choice for the Lord.
The Bible teaches us that God predestined us, according
to HIS WILL (Eph 1 & 5) BEFORE THE FOUNDATION
OF THE WORD and yet, you want me to think that you
somehow made the choice.
What the Bible teaches is clear. No man would choose
God and the word "helkuo) does not include a "polite nudge"
by the Lord, since before a man is born again, he will not
choose the Lord. Paul's conversation is a perfect example
of this. What choice did Paul have? None. Paul was so
totally overwhelmed by the presence of the Lord and don't
forget, that he was blinded and knew that if He didn't
follow the instructions of the Lord, that he would remain
blind. Thus, Paul was forced into the position he was put
into. And Paul was the Lord's choice for the replacement of
the 12th Apostle.
Also, the word that Strong's tells us to compare, for usage,
is Strong's number 1667, which is as follows...
Helisso - to coil or wrap.
It appears once in the NT and it appears as follows (the
word is actually translated into part of a sentence, which
is "shalt thou fold them up")...
"And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up (helisso), and
they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy
years shall not fail." - Hebrews 1:12
Now, what choice does the "vesture" (clothing object)
have, in whether or not it is "folded up"???
So while you claim that I "haven't got a leg to stand on",
the reality is, that every usage of the word and even the
word it compares to in the Greek language, supports
my statement regarding the word. Also my statement
is supported by every statement in Scripture as to how
a man is saved.
So you go ahead and believe what you want, based on your
misunderstanding of Vine's and based on your ignorance of
what the Scripture teaches regarding this subject. That is
your choice and I am not trying to insult you. People do
misunderstand things and ignorance does mean "stupid",
it means, "uninformed".
I have supported my statement well, Scripturally, according
to the original language that it was written in. You have
tried to argue, using two books that you haven't even used
properly. Thus, I leave the choice up to you, as to what
you wish to believe from this point on and I will not argue
it into futility with you.
Goodbye, at least for now. :)
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
The end timers believe in a literal, physical
New Jerusalem. But is that what Scripture teaches?
No, it doesn't! So what is the New Jerusalem? It
is amazing what the end timers miss, especially
since it is stated clearly that the New Jerusalem
is the bride of Christ, the church.
Revelation 21:1,9-10
1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the
first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
9) And one of the seven angels who had the seven
vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and
talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you
the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great
and high mountain and showed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God
.
|
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| User: "Brandon" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
03 Nov 2005 12:33:55 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rs0im11e9th1qbnc8406f0fkjnn4rj4850@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:51:04 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6spfm1ldjf3eaqg6pq1dgf3e8gr86i2hbr@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:39:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw",
There is a difference between "translate" and "definition".
Strong's and Thayers contain Greek dictionaries.
It is as I said.
It's apparent you have not a leg to stand on. You have not provided
support
when I asked, and you have not answered any of my questions.
Goodbye Dave
Brandon
You are quite rude!
Rude, you have got to be kidding. And rude is not fully reading someone's
post, not answering questions asked of them, and submitting an off the cuff
response instead of a well thought out supported statement. And when you did
respond with something worthy, it was debating a matter I clearly stated two
posts ago was not worth arguing about. Btw thank you for the response, I
have some things to ponder and look into.
<snip 11/1/2005 1:39 PM>
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw", less violent then Gr.
suro, "drag". So it's my two against your two. :) Of the seven times the
word is use in the NT, and in the 4 different bible translations I looked
at, it is translated either draw or drew. But debating on which dictionary
is correct is pointless. So lets say that God "drags" in Jn. 6:44, and Jesus
"drags" in 12:32. Is that correct?
<end snip>
The subject of this thread is Predestination or Free Will. I have provided
much support for a free will position, and I have countered your support for
predestination. I have asked questions of you, and asked for claification on
some things, and you have not responded. This is a tireless debate that you
and I are not going to solve here. But I'm looking for serious criticism
againt my position, and a new curve ball from you on yours. Iron sharpens
iron! It's rude not to fully read a post before responding, and then to just
skip over questions asked of you. I never attacked you personally, I'm (the
body) doing my job keeping you (the leadership) accountable. James 3:1
should be a very scary verse for anyone in your position.
The matter of which dictionary is correct...is futile. The matter at hand is
free will or predestination. If you wish to discuss that, then re-read my
posts and comment on that subject. I am not asking for a response, if you do
not responed it is by no means that you do not have valid arguments on your
side. This thread is getting long and tiresome, and at some point starting
turning personal.
Take care Dave,
Brandon
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
03 Nov 2005 12:49:48 PM |
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On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:33:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rs0im11e9th1qbnc8406f0fkjnn4rj4850@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:51:04 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6spfm1ldjf3eaqg6pq1dgf3e8gr86i2hbr@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:39:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw",
There is a difference between "translate" and "definition".
Strong's and Thayers contain Greek dictionaries.
It is as I said.
It's apparent you have not a leg to stand on. You have not provided
support
when I asked, and you have not answered any of my questions.
Goodbye Dave
Brandon
You are quite rude!
Rude, you have got to be kidding. And rude is not fully reading someone's
post, not answering questions asked of them, and submitting an off the cuff
response instead of a well thought out supported statement. And when you did
respond with something worthy, it was debating a matter I clearly stated two
posts ago was not worth arguing about. Btw thank you for the response, I
have some things to ponder and look into.
<snip 11/1/2005 1:39 PM>
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw", less violent then Gr.
suro, "drag". So it's my two against your two. :) Of the seven times the
word is use in the NT, and in the 4 different bible translations I looked
at, it is translated either draw or drew. But debating on which dictionary
is correct is pointless. So lets say that God "drags" in Jn. 6:44, and Jesus
"drags" in 12:32. Is that correct?
<end snip>
The subject of this thread is Predestination or Free Will. I have provided
much support for a free will position, and I have countered your support for
predestination. I have asked questions of you, and asked for claification on
some things, and you have not responded. This is a tireless debate that you
and I are not going to solve here. But I'm looking for serious criticism
againt my position, and a new curve ball from you on yours. Iron sharpens
iron! It's rude not to fully read a post before responding, and then to just
skip over questions asked of you. I never attacked you personally, I'm (the
body) doing my job keeping you (the leadership) accountable. James 3:1
should be a very scary verse for anyone in your position.
The matter of which dictionary is correct...is futile. The matter at hand is
free will or predestination. If you wish to discuss that, then re-read my
posts and comment on that subject. I am not asking for a response, if you do
not responed it is by no means that you do not have valid arguments on your
side. This thread is getting long and tiresome, and at some point starting
turning personal.
Take care Dave,
Brandon
I see you have ignored the entire study I presented.
That makes you dishonest. Therefore, I have no
further desire to see your posts anymore. You are
a liar and a true child of God does not lie and does
not act rudely toward His ministers.
For those interested in what this pretender ignored,
here is the response I sent to him, in its entirety...
***************************************************************
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:51:04 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6spfm1ldjf3eaqg6pq1dgf3e8gr86i2hbr@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:39:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw",
There is a difference between "translate" and "definition".
Strong's and Thayers contain Greek dictionaries.
It is as I said.
It's apparent you have not a leg to stand on. You have not provided support
when I asked, and you have not answered any of my questions.
Goodbye Dave
Brandon
You are quite rude! Do you always speak to the pastor
of your church this way?
You believe what you want. If you think a translation
overrules the very definition of a Greek word, that's your
choice. That is not the reality of it however and the
passages showing predestination confirm that it isn't by
man's will that the elect are the elect. The very word
"elect" tells you all you need to know. God "elects" us.
Here are what various works say and then, after that,
I will show you the word usage in the NT, for every time
the Greek word appears in the NT.
And as for Vine's, it merely says that it is translated
as "draw". Vine's however, points you to the word "drag".
VINE'S:
HELKO÷ (e{lkw, (1670)) is translated to draw in the A.V., of
Acts 21:30 and Jas. 2:6; see Drag, No. 2.
Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New
Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981.
A CONCISE GREEK-ENGLISH DICTIONARY OF
THE NEW TESTAMENT - BARCLAY M. NEWMAN:
quote:ELKUW - draw, attract; drag (of coercion); haul in;
draw (of swords)?
BAUER, GINGRICH AND DANKER (BGAD):
quote:1. to drag, draw something as a sword or to haul a
net. pull or tug someone back and forth, mistreat someone.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
As for the usage of the word in the NT, it is very
revealing. And I mean the usage of the Greek word
and not what it is translated into. It is the original
Greek and its meanings in the Greek language that
matter, since the NT was originally written in Greek.
The word is used a few times in the NT. Let's look at all
of them and see what each usage reveals about the choice
of the person or object being "drawn", since that it what
the discussion is about. Not the "drawer", but the
"drawee", if you will. :)
The first one, is the one under dispute, but I will paste it
in here, since it is one of the times the Greek word
"helkuo" appears in the NT and I will place the Greek word
in parenthesis, immediately following the English word it is
translated into in the passage, so that there is no
confusion as to which word is under discussion. And keep in
mind, the question revolves around what choice the person or
object being drawn has, since our discussion is about
whether or not John 6:44 allows for the free will of man.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath
sent me draw (helkuo) him: and I will raise him up at the
last day." - John 6:44
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (helkuo)
all men unto me." - John 12:32
Now here, it is obvious that "all men" means all men who
will be saved, since not everyone in the world will be
saved, which is evident by the fact that people have died
without being saved. :) But this passage does not answer
the question, since it is like John 6:44. So we will
continue onward.
"But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress
you, and draw (helkuo) you before the judgment seats?"
- James 2:6
Now here, we have James saying that the rich men "draw"
them before the judgment seats (in secular court).
Tell me, what "choice" and "free will" did those people
have? If they fail to appear, will they not be arrested
and forced to appear? In fact, that's what happened
quite a bit in those days. They authorities came for
them, bound them and dragged them off.
The passage in James shows us that no choice on the part
of the person being "drawn" is allowed.
Let's look at the next one...
John 21:10-11
10) Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have
now caught.
11) Simon Peter went up, and drew (helkuo) the net to
land full of great fishes, a hundred and fifty and three:
and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
Now, what choice did the fish have, when Peter "drew"
them to shore? Did not Peter, in reality, have to DRAG
the net to shore? Using your logic, the fish had a choice
and decided to work with Peter and started hopping in
the net, toward shore, to help him out. :)
"And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains
was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew (helkuo)
them into the marketplace unto the rulers," - Acts 16:19
Now tell me, what choice did Paul and Silas have, when
the masters "drew" them into the marketplace and to
the rulers? Did they just "politely nudge" them and
nicely "request" that they come along?
It is clear that again, the "drawee" had ZERO choice
in the matter.
"And all the city was moved, and the people ran together:
and they took Paul, and drew (helkuo) him out of the temple:
and forthwith the doors were shut." - Acts 21:30
What choice did the drawee, Paul have, when "the people
ran together and drew him out of the temple"?
It is clear that once again, the drawee had ZERO choice
in the matter.
That is it. That is every usage of the word in the NT
and so, the only conclusion that can be drawn, is that
it is not a matter of man's free will in coming to God.
The Bible teaches very clearly that "the natural man
receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God". And before
we are born again, we are "natural men". Yet you want me
to believe that we somehow make that choice for the Lord.
The Bible teaches us that God predestined us, according
to HIS WILL (Eph 1 & 5) BEFORE THE FOUNDATION
OF THE WORD and yet, you want me to think that you
somehow made the choice.
What the Bible teaches is clear. No man would choose
God and the word "helkuo) does not include a "polite nudge"
by the Lord, since before a man is born again, he will not
choose the Lord. Paul's conversation is a perfect example
of this. What choice did Paul have? None. Paul was so
totally overwhelmed by the presence of the Lord and don't
forget, that he was blinded and knew that if He didn't
follow the instructions of the Lord, that he would remain
blind. Thus, Paul was forced into the position he was put
into. And Paul was the Lord's choice for the replacement of
the 12th Apostle.
Also, the word that Strong's tells us to compare, for usage,
is Strong's number 1667, which is as follows...
Helisso - to coil or wrap.
It appears once in the NT and it appears as follows (the
word is actually translated into part of a sentence, which
is "shalt thou fold them up")...
"And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up (helisso), and
they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy
years shall not fail." - Hebrews 1:12
Now, what choice does the "vesture" (clothing object)
have, in whether or not it is "folded up"???
So while you claim that I "haven't got a leg to stand on",
the reality is, that every usage of the word and even the
word it compares to in the Greek language, supports
my statement regarding the word. Also my statement
is supported by every statement in Scripture as to how
a man is saved.
So you go ahead and believe what you want, based on your
misunderstanding of Vine's and based on your ignorance of
what the Scripture teaches regarding this subject. That is
your choice and I am not trying to insult you. People do
misunderstand things and ignorance does mean "stupid",
it means, "uninformed".
I have supported my statement well, Scripturally, according
to the original language that it was written in. You have
tried to argue, using two books that you haven't even used
properly. Thus, I leave the choice up to you, as to what
you wish to believe from this point on and I will not argue
it into futility with you.
Goodbye, at least for now. :)
************************************************************************
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
What shall I render to the Lord
for all His benefits toward me?
I will take up the cup of salvation
and call upon the name of the Lord.
- Psalm 116:12-13
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
03 Nov 2005 12:52:22 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 13:49:46 -0500, Pastor Dave
<1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> spake thusly:
P.S.: You snipped the entirety of the study I posted,
because you knew that it refuted your claims. But
you are more interested in the Bible saying what YOU
prefer, that truth didn't matter to you. You want it to
say that YOU are in control and that YOU somehow
have a say and yet, every Sunday you become a
HYPOCRITE and proclaim how God is sovereign and
how God is in control. (:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:33:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rs0im11e9th1qbnc8406f0fkjnn4rj4850@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:51:04 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6spfm1ldjf3eaqg6pq1dgf3e8gr86i2hbr@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:39:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw",
There is a difference between "translate" and "definition".
Strong's and Thayers contain Greek dictionaries.
It is as I said.
It's apparent you have not a leg to stand on. You have not provided
support
when I asked, and you have not answered any of my questions.
Goodbye Dave
Brandon
You are quite rude!
Rude, you have got to be kidding. And rude is not fully reading someone's
post, not answering questions asked of them, and submitting an off the cuff
response instead of a well thought out supported statement. And when you did
respond with something worthy, it was debating a matter I clearly stated two
posts ago was not worth arguing about. Btw thank you for the response, I
have some things to ponder and look into.
<snip 11/1/2005 1:39 PM>
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw", less violent then Gr.
suro, "drag". So it's my two against your two. :) Of the seven times the
word is use in the NT, and in the 4 different bible translations I looked
at, it is translated either draw or drew. But debating on which dictionary
is correct is pointless. So lets say that God "drags" in Jn. 6:44, and Jesus
"drags" in 12:32. Is that correct?
<end snip>
The subject of this thread is Predestination or Free Will. I have provided
much support for a free will position, and I have countered your support for
predestination. I have asked questions of you, and asked for claification on
some things, and you have not responded. This is a tireless debate that you
and I are not going to solve here. But I'm looking for serious criticism
againt my position, and a new curve ball from you on yours. Iron sharpens
iron! It's rude not to fully read a post before responding, and then to just
skip over questions asked of you. I never attacked you personally, I'm (the
body) doing my job keeping you (the leadership) accountable. James 3:1
should be a very scary verse for anyone in your position.
The matter of which dictionary is correct...is futile. The matter at hand is
free will or predestination. If you wish to discuss that, then re-read my
posts and comment on that subject. I am not asking for a response, if you do
not responed it is by no means that you do not have valid arguments on your
side. This thread is getting long and tiresome, and at some point starting
turning personal.
Take care Dave,
Brandon
I see you have ignored the entire study I presented.
That makes you dishonest. Therefore, I have no
further desire to see your posts anymore. You are
a liar and a true child of God does not lie and does
not act rudely toward His ministers.
For those interested in what this pretender ignored,
here is the response I sent to him, in its entirety...
***************************************************************
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:51:04 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6spfm1ldjf3eaqg6pq1dgf3e8gr86i2hbr@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:39:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw",
There is a difference between "translate" and "definition".
Strong's and Thayers contain Greek dictionaries.
It is as I said.
It's apparent you have not a leg to stand on. You have not provided support
when I asked, and you have not answered any of my questions.
Goodbye Dave
Brandon
You are quite rude! Do you always speak to the pastor
of your church this way?
You believe what you want. If you think a translation
overrules the very definition of a Greek word, that's your
choice. That is not the reality of it however and the
passages showing predestination confirm that it isn't by
man's will that the elect are the elect. The very word
"elect" tells you all you need to know. God "elects" us.
Here are what various works say and then, after that,
I will show you the word usage in the NT, for every time
the Greek word appears in the NT.
And as for Vine's, it merely says that it is translated
as "draw". Vine's however, points you to the word "drag".
VINE'S:
HELKO÷ (e{lkw, (1670)) is translated to draw in the A.V., of
Acts 21:30 and Jas. 2:6; see Drag, No. 2.
Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New
Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981.
A CONCISE GREEK-ENGLISH DICTIONARY OF
THE NEW TESTAMENT - BARCLAY M. NEWMAN:
quote:ELKUW - draw, attract; drag (of coercion); haul in;
draw (of swords)?
BAUER, GINGRICH AND DANKER (BGAD):
quote:1. to drag, draw something as a sword or to haul a
net. pull or tug someone back and forth, mistreat someone.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
As for the usage of the word in the NT, it is very
revealing. And I mean the usage of the Greek word
and not what it is translated into. It is the original
Greek and its meanings in the Greek language that
matter, since the NT was originally written in Greek.
The word is used a few times in the NT. Let's look at all
of them and see what each usage reveals about the choice
of the person or object being "drawn", since that it what
the discussion is about. Not the "drawer", but the
"drawee", if you will. :)
The first one, is the one under dispute, but I will paste it
in here, since it is one of the times the Greek word
"helkuo" appears in the NT and I will place the Greek word
in parenthesis, immediately following the English word it is
translated into in the passage, so that there is no
confusion as to which word is under discussion. And keep in
mind, the question revolves around what choice the person or
object being drawn has, since our discussion is about
whether or not John 6:44 allows for the free will of man.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath
sent me draw (helkuo) him: and I will raise him up at the
last day." - John 6:44
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (helkuo)
all men unto me." - John 12:32
Now here, it is obvious that "all men" means all men who
will be saved, since not everyone in the world will be
saved, which is evident by the fact that people have died
without being saved. :) But this passage does not answer
the question, since it is like John 6:44. So we will
continue onward.
"But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress
you, and draw (helkuo) you before the judgment seats?"
- James 2:6
Now here, we have James saying that the rich men "draw"
them before the judgment seats (in secular court).
Tell me, what "choice" and "free will" did those people
have? If they fail to appear, will they not be arrested
and forced to appear? In fact, that's what happened
quite a bit in those days. They authorities came for
them, bound them and dragged them off.
The passage in James shows us that no choice on the part
of the person being "drawn" is allowed.
Let's look at the next one...
John 21:10-11
10) Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have
now caught.
11) Simon Peter went up, and drew (helkuo) the net to
land full of great fishes, a hundred and fifty and three:
and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
Now, what choice did the fish have, when Peter "drew"
them to shore? Did not Peter, in reality, have to DRAG
the net to shore? Using your logic, the fish had a choice
and decided to work with Peter and started hopping in
the net, toward shore, to help him out. :)
"And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains
was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew (helkuo)
them into the marketplace unto the rulers," - Acts 16:19
Now tell me, what choice did Paul and Silas have, when
the masters "drew" them into the marketplace and to
the rulers? Did they just "politely nudge" them and
nicely "request" that they come along?
It is clear that again, the "drawee" had ZERO choice
in the matter.
"And all the city was moved, and the people ran together:
and they took Paul, and drew (helkuo) him out of the temple:
and forthwith the doors were shut." - Acts 21:30
What choice did the drawee, Paul have, when "the people
ran together and drew him out of the temple"?
It is clear that once again, the drawee had ZERO choice
in the matter.
That is it. That is every usage of the word in the NT
and so, the only conclusion that can be drawn, is that
it is not a matter of man's free will in coming to God.
The Bible teaches very clearly that "the natural man
receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God". And before
we are born again, we are "natural men". Yet you want me
to believe that we somehow make that choice for the Lord.
The Bible teaches us that God predestined us, according
to HIS WILL (Eph 1 & 5) BEFORE THE FOUNDATION
OF THE WORD and yet, you want me to think that you
somehow made the choice.
What the Bible teaches is clear. No man would choose
God and the word "helkuo) does not include a "polite nudge"
by the Lord, since before a man is born again, he will not
choose the Lord. Paul's conversation is a perfect example
of this. What choice did Paul have? None. Paul was so
totally overwhelmed by the presence of the Lord and don't
forget, that he was blinded and knew that if He didn't
follow the instructions of the Lord, that he would remain
blind. Thus, Paul was forced into the position he was put
into. And Paul was the Lord's choice for the replacement of
the 12th Apostle.
Also, the word that Strong's tells us to compare, for usage,
is Strong's number 1667, which is as follows...
Helisso - to coil or wrap.
It appears once in the NT and it appears as follows (the
word is actually translated into part of a sentence, which
is "shalt thou fold them up")...
"And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up (helisso), and
they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy
years shall not fail." - Hebrews 1:12
Now, what choice does the "vesture" (clothing object)
have, in whether or not it is "folded up"???
So while you claim that I "haven't got a leg to stand on",
the reality is, that every usage of the word and even the
word it compares to in the Greek language, supports
my statement regarding the word. Also my statement
is supported by every statement in Scripture as to how
a man is saved.
So you go ahead and believe what you want, based on your
misunderstanding of Vine's and based on your ignorance of
what the Scripture teaches regarding this subject. That is
your choice and I am not trying to insult you. People do
misunderstand things and ignorance does mean "stupid",
it means, "uninformed".
I have supported my statement well, Scripturally, according
to the original language that it was written in. You have
tried to argue, using two books that you haven't even used
properly. Thus, I leave the choice up to you, as to what
you wish to believe from this point on and I will not argue
it into futility with you.
Goodbye, at least for now. :)
************************************************************************
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
1st Century Church of Christ
What shall I render to the Lord
for all His benefits toward me?
I will take up the cup of salvation
and call upon the name of the Lord.
- Psalm 116:12-13
.
|
|
|
| User: "Brandon" |
|
| Title: Re: Predestination or Free Will? |
03 Nov 2005 02:33:16 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:b0nkm11s7ao494gipu62v7jssq5br3aqjl@4ax.com...
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 13:49:46 -0500, Pastor Dave
<1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> spake thusly:
I see you have ignored the entire study I presented.
That makes you dishonest. Therefore, I have no
further desire to see your posts anymore. You are
a liar and a true child of God does not lie and does
not act rudely toward His ministers.
For those interested in what this pretender ignored,
here is the response I sent to him, in its entirety...
P.S.: You snipped the entirety of the study I posted,
because you knew that it refuted your claims. But
you are more interested in the Bible saying what YOU
prefer, that truth didn't matter to you. You want it to
say that YOU are in control and that YOU somehow
have a say and yet, every Sunday you become a
HYPOCRITE and proclaim how God is sovereign and
how God is in control. (:
Wow, this is a very eye opening event. You should be ashamed for putting the
word "Pastor" infront of your name. You are called to be above reproach. You
should have a shepards heart, a Christ love for all the body reguardless of
how they treat you. You return insult for insult and rudeness for rudeness.
Judging by how you have treated me, and others I see on these newsgroups, I
am almost ashamed to call myself a Christian.
Most people keep count of how many are going to heaven because of them, I
keep count of how many might be going to hell because of me. I pray that my
words or actions would not turn people away from Christ. "If that's the way
Christian's act, I don't want to be one." Oh but wait, you don't send people
to hell Dave, according to you God does. Well I have news for you, judging
by how you have treated me, and many others on these NG's, you are turning
people off for God. You call people names, and call them stupid, you insult
them, you call them rude, but yet you proudly display "Pastor" in front of
your name, and verses at the end of your letters. You are no better than one
who drives wildly on the streets and displays a fish on their car. Wake up
Dave, because of your behavior these people do not take you seriously. You
are playing right into there hands. A pastor should not be so easily provked
to anger, slow to anger! Remember the requirements Paul gives? We believers
are the face of Christ that the world see's. What face are you wearing?
Please consider my words carefully before responding. There is much need for
pastors with a shepards heart to contribute to the NG's. I don't know you
personally, I do not go to your church. My only impression of you is from
your activity in the NG's. I'm not alone in saying that your behavior does
not fall in line with Christ likeness. You call me a hypocrite, yet I bet
every Sunday you preach to be like Christ. A leader leads by example. You do
not demonstrate any example that I want to follow. We are new creations, our
old man is gone. Live like that, and let you responses to people be like
that. You my belittle and call me names all you want Dave. But for the sake
of the body of Christ, please examine yourself.
I pray for you,
Brandon
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:33:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
message
news:rs0im11e9th1qbnc8406f0fkjnn4rj4850@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:51:04 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
message
news:6spfm1ldjf3eaqg6pq1dgf3e8gr86i2hbr@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:39:55 GMT, "Brandon"
<brandon@nospam.com> spake thusly:
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Strong's:
Helkuo - to drag
Thayer's:
Helkuo - to drag off
There's two for you.
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw",
There is a difference between "translate" and "definition".
Strong's and Thayers contain Greek dictionaries.
It is as I said.
It's apparent you have not a leg to stand on. You have not provided
support
when I asked, and you have not answered any of my questions.
Goodbye Dave
Brandon
You are quite rude!
Rude, you have got to be kidding. And rude is not fully reading someone's
post, not answering questions asked of them, and submitting an off the
cuff
response instead of a well thought out supported statement. And when you
did
respond with something worthy, it was debating a matter I clearly stated
two
posts ago was not worth arguing about. Btw thank you for the response, I
have some things to ponder and look into.
<snip 11/1/2005 1:39 PM>
Both Vine's and Spiros translate the word as "draw", less violent then
Gr.
suro, "drag". So it's my two against your two. :) Of the seven times the
word is use in the NT, and in the 4 different bible translations I looked
at, it is translated either draw or drew. But debating on which
dictionary
is correct is pointless. So lets say that God "drags" in Jn. 6:44, and
Jesus
"drags" in 12:32. Is that correct?
<end snip>
The subject of this thread is Predestination or Free Will. I have
provided
much support for a free will position, and I have countered your support
for
predestination. I have asked questions of you, and asked for claification
on
some things, and you have not responded. This is a tireless debate that
you
and I are not going to solve here. But I'm looking for serious criticism
againt my position, and a new curve ball from you on yours. Iron sharpens
iron! It's rude not to fully read a post before responding, and then to
just
skip over questions asked of you. I never attacked you personally, I'm
(the
body) doing my job keeping you (the leadership) accountable. James 3:1
should be a very scary verse for anyone in your position.
The matter of which dictionary is correct...is futile. The matter at hand
< | | | | | | | | | | | | |
