| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
12 Mar 2005 11:27:01 AM |
| Object: |
Questions for Pastor Steve Winter |
Is Jesus His own Father?
If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical, then why did Jesus
express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own
will, but the will of the Father?
Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?
If Jesus was praying to the divine side of Himself, then isn't He still
praying to Himself?
Why was Jesus not saying, "Not My will, but My will be done?" if there
is only one person and one will involved when He was praying in Luke
22:42 & Matt. 26:39.
If baptism is essential for salvation, then what happens to someone who
repents of sin, accepts Jesus as Savior, walks across the street to get
baptized but is killed by a car. Does he go to heaven or hell?
Since the Bible teaches us that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9),
then how does the Oneness Pentecostal person maintain that God is in
the form of the Holy Spirit? Also, when Jesus returns, will He return
in His body? Will God's form then revert to the form of the Son at a
later date?
If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man
love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we
will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one
person, why does Jesus say, "we"?
Oneness theology teaches that God was in the mode of the Father in the
Old Testament. God was seen in the OT (not as a vision or a dream or
an angel in the following verses: Exo. 6:2-3; Gen. 19:24; Num.
12:6-8). But, Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If
they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father,
then who was it?
Thanks,
John
.
|
|
| User: "Pastor Steve Winter" |
|
| Title: Re: Questions for Pastor Steve Winter |
12 Mar 2005 07:02:26 PM |
|
|
spake thusly and wrote:
Is Jesus His own Father?
If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical, then why did Jesus
express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own
will, but the will of the Father?
I understand that the polytheists have many verses that they
believe support their polytheism.
In this post I will attempt to explain how the son could pray to
the Father and still not be two separate gods (or persons). The
key to understanding this is understanding "flesh" and
"spirit":......
Here, we see that God the Father of the old testament does NOT
have flesh and bone (so consider also "The Right Hand" does not
mean a big ole arm)..See, God is a Spirit and a spirit hath NOT
flesh and bone.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye
see me have.
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must
worship [him] in spirit and in truth....
Also notice the importance of TRUTH in worshiping God, We MUST
know WHO we are worshipping! God of the old testament came to
earth in human form, he did NOT have blood to shed for anyone;
sooooo he took on a human body and came to his people:......
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
II Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling
the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
In other words God came in the form of Christ, not a "second
person" or "Jehovah Jr.", but God HIMSELF in a human body..the
Lord of Glory himself....
I Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew:
for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord
of glory.
God did not send anyone else to "do the dirty work"; HE CAME
HIMSELF and took on a life and then gave up that life for us!!
I John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid
down his life for us...."
God himself in a human body, but even then the Spirit of God was
greater than the flesh of God..even God had to keep his flesh in
subjection to his Spirit..It was not the flesh body of God that
did the miracles, but rather the Spirit that was in the
body...and, in the garden it was flesh praying to Spirit (not one
god praying to another)
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of
myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne
witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor
seen his shape.
(The Father IN the son=The Spirit in the flesh)
Matthew 13:17 {For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and
righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see,
and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye
hear, and have not heard [them].}
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud
overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which
said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye
him.
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art
my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
II Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and
glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent
glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(Notice "IN WHOM" in each verse, the Father (spirit) was IN the
son (flesh)).
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me
hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the
Father?
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of
myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the
works.....
Jesus Christ, Jehovah God in the flesh....Why is this so
important?!?
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, {The first of all the
commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:}
Not three lords, not "three separate persons", ONE GOD:
JESUS!!.....
Pastor sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
.
|
|
|
| User: "stone" |
|
| Title: Re: Questions for Pastor Steve Winter |
13 Mar 2005 02:18:44 AM |
|
|
Evidence of more than one person in God from the Old Testament:
Messianic Jewish statement
When God is referred to in the singular such as I, it is showing the being
of God as the only God. When it is in the plural he is revealing something
personal of his nature. What cults do is concentrate only on the single
passages that describe God as I, me, myself and ignore all the plural
passages such as us, we, our. They also ignore how they are used. Because of
their preconceived notions that God has to be numerically one they have
tunnel vision. If we look carefully we find God is usually revealing his
persons when speaking of himself in the plural context. Trinitarians realize
that God is described in both ways and take the whole of the Bible instead
of a cut and paste theology that makes the scriptures conform to our own
interpretation. God is clearly presented as a united one not only through
the language but through the descriptions themselves. "In the light of the
facts of the New Testament we cannot refrain from asking whether there may
not have been some adumbrations of it in the Old Testament. As the doctrine
arises directly out of the facts of the New Testament, we do not look for
any full discovery of it in the Old Testament. We must not expect too much,
because, as Israel's function was to emphasize the unity of God (Deut.6:4),
any premature revelation might have been. But if the doctrine be true, we
might expect that Christian Jews, at any rate, would seek for some
anticipation of it in the Old Testament. We believe we find it there. (a)
The use of the plural "Elohim,," with the singular verb, "bara," is at least
noteworthy, and seems to call for some recognition, especially as the same
grammatical solecism is found used by St. Paul (1 Thess.3:11). Then, too,
the use of the plurals "our" (Gen. 1. 26), "us" (3:22), "us" (11:7), seems
to indicate some self-converse in God. It is not satisfactory to refer this
to angels because they were not associated with God in creation. Whatever
may be the meaning of this usage, it seems, at any rate, to imply that
Hebrew Monotheism was an intensely living reality". ( Dr. W. H. Griffith
Thomas Principles of Theology The Doctrine Anticipated" pp. 25, 26), God has
unfolded his revelation throughout history and many times we had to wait to
understand it. This is especially true for prophecy. When we take all the
information the Bible has on a certain subject such as the nature of God we
can understand what was said in the past. What was given in Genesis, needed
to have future revelation to explain its meaning. In the same way, there are
only two scriptures relating to a virgin conceiving Gen.3:15, Isa 7:14 and
needed the future revelation to understand their meaning. The example of
this is Gen. 1:26: " And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness" Let us make man in our image-Naase=let us make, adam bitzalmanu-
adam bitzalmanu- nu=our, tselem= image in our likeness- keedmutenu-
keedmutenu- nu=our, demuth=likeness. (dashes found in Hebrew mean 2 words in
a relationship to one another) the words our and us are interconnected with
other words and cannot be separated. Anti Trinitarians like Jehovah
Witnesses and others entertain the only reasonable explanation from human
wisdom. Trying to avoid the issue saying God talked with the angels, The
Bible once again refute this logic in Isa.40:12-15 when speaking of God
creating the world it asked, "With whom did he take counsel." Can anyone
find this statement of his conferring with angels in the Bible. I'm sure
when they do it will be right next to God is strictly one person. The
speaker of Gen.1:26 is God, the other he is speaking to is of the same
nature and essence because he includes him in being equal, as the source of
creating. The words image and likeness are attached to the plural pronoun
our and us. So the speaker and the ones addressed are of the same image.
While the J.W. and other anti Trinitarians will say he speaking to the
angels the very next verse settles the matter. Vs.27 verifies all this by
saying "so God created man in his own image ; in the image of God he created
him." There were no angels involved in making man in his image. Isa.45:11:
"Thus says the holy One of Israel and his maker "I have made the earth, and
created man on it. I-- My hands-- stretched out the heavens, and all their
host I have commanded." Gen. 3:22:" And the LORD God said, Behold, the man
is become as one of us," us is indicative of number; the word one is also
the word echad meaning to unite. Gen.11:7: ..." let us go down, and there
confound their language,"' the us is found in this text and is the same word
for us in vs.4 when the people said "come let us build ourselves a city". If
one is going to say us can't be plural, then they will have to be consistent
and change this to, come let myself build a city. Gen.19:24: "Then Yahweh
rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah fire and brimstone from Yahweh out of heaven
Yahweh who was on earth talking to Abraham in form rained it from another
who is Yahweh in heaven. ISA.48:16: "from the beginning from the time that
it was, I was there: ( 1st person) and now the Lord GOD (2nd person) and his
Spirit, (3rd person) hath sent me(1st person)." here we have three
individuals existing together, the one speaking states that he was there
from before time (Jn. 1:1 ) he refers to the Lord and states that both
Yahweh and his Spirit have sent me, (the speaker.) This goes perfectly in
line with Isa. 6:8 God speaking to Isaiah "Who shall I send, who will go for
us". Both the singular and the plural are used in the same verse. Zech.2:
8-11: Here we have an account of someone being sent from the Lord yet as the
description goes on in the passages we find this person to be God himself.
In vs.10 " sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and
I will dwell in your midst says the Lord. In vs11 ..." And I will dwell in
your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you"
Here are two persons mentioned the Lord said he is coming he then says the
Lord of hosts is sending him, who is identified as Yahweh. It is this one
who will dwell with man. Isa.41:21-26: God asks the people to present their
case in vs.22 he uses the plural us, and we for himself . In vs.23 we vs.26
we . Since this is God speaking the conclusion is that he refers to himself
in the plural. Isa.45:11:" Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and
his Maker, I have made the earth and created man on it, I my hands stretched
out the heavens." two persons Yahweh and his maker who is God also. Singular
as God, plural in persons (Isa. 45:18, ) How does this mesh with Isaiah
44:24 ? It states that the Lord made all things who stretched out the
heavens all alone, who spreads out the earth by myself." There is no
conflict, because the Father, Son and the Spirit are all God. As the one God
alone, he made everything! In the N.T. we find this maker is Christ the Son
(Col.1:16, Jn.1:3,Heb.1:2) God the Father is the source, Christ is the means
and the Spirit is the power that created all things. Since all three are
involved in creating they are the one God. Genesis 1:1 says that in the
beginning God (Elohim) created. The word Elohim is a compound unity. It
describes more than one person as a unified one as in this description of
God. If all three are attributed to this event then they are Elohim.
Zech.13:7: " Awake, O sword against my shepherd, and against the man that is
my fellow, says the Lord of hosts." the Hebrew word for fellow means equal,
so it reads against the man who is my equal (deity). Jer.23:5-6: " Behold
the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a branch of
righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and
righteousness in the earth. in his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will
dwell safely; now this is his name by which he will be called THE LORD OUR
RIGHTEOUSNESS." Here is described a descendant of David a man who will reign
on David's throne and is called the Lord, yet there is another who is Lord
who raised him up. This is echoed by Isaiah 9:6 about the Son who is given,
"of the increase of his government and peace, there will be no end, upon the
throne of David and over his kingdom. To order it and establish it with
judgment and justice from that time forward even forever." What other man
could deserve the title "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS? Except the sinless
God/man. The mighty God of Isa.9:6. The ancient rabbis also believed that
this verse was a reference the Messiah? This verse is applied to the Messiah
in a number of rabbinical writings. Regarding Jeremiah 23:6, the ancient' of
the Prophets states: 'And I will raise up for David the Messiah the Just.
Rabbi Kimchi (I160-1235 C.E.), a highly respected Rabbi in his time, wrote
of this prophecy: 'By the Righteous branch is meant Messiah ". In the
Midrash on Psalm 23, it is interesting to note the Messiah is given a divine
designation. He is called, "Jehovah is a man of war' and "Jehovah our
righteousness., Also in the Midrash on Lamentations 1: 16, the name Jehovah
is expressly attributed to the Messiah. If the ancient rabbis are correct,
then the obvious and startling conclusion is that the Messiah (the righteous
shoot) will be born into the world as a literal physical human being.
Isa.11:1-5 "There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a
Branch shall grow out of his roots." Here we have the Branch mentioned which
indicates the lineage of Jesus coming from King David's Father Jesse.
(Lk.22:42) We also see him having the fullness of the Spirit even beyond
what Solomon had. The Spirit is mentioned 7 times a number indicating
completeness or fullness. "The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, the
Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the
Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. His delight is in the fear
of the LORD, ." Zech.3:8-9 'Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, you and your
companions who sit before you, for they are a wondrous sign; for behold, I
am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH. For behold, the stone that I have
laid before Joshua: upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave
its inscription,' says the LORD of hosts, 'And I will remove the iniquity of
that land in one day". This identifies him as the branch. He is Gods
servant, Jesus said he did not come to be served but to serve. He also says
he will remove the sin in one day, which is exactly what happened when Jesus
died. Continuing in his revelation he is told by the Lord in Zech.4:7 that
he will bring forth the capstone with shouts of grace, grace to it. The day
iniquity was removed was because of grace, the New Covenant. Zech.12:10:"and
they will look upon me (the word "me" is given two letters the Aleph and the
Tov in Hebrew which is equal to the alpha and omega in the Greek) whom they
have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for his only Son."
There is the 1st person speaking who is God, he addresses the subject
pierced as himself and then addresses himself in the 3rd person as the Son.
This is a clear indication of God becoming man and dying for the sins of the
world.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "John" |
|
| Title: Re: Questions for Pastor Steve Winter |
12 Mar 2005 10:18:12 PM |
|
|
Steve why didn't you answer the remaining questions?
In article <1110675426.981024a057f961b7ed8ec4b2380dd5bc@teranews>,
Pastor Steve Winter <steve.NO--SPAM@prime.org> wrote:
johnw_94020@yahoo.com spake thusly and wrote:
Is Jesus His own Father?
If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical, then why did Jesus
express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own
will, but the will of the Father?
I understand that the polytheists have many verses that they
believe support their polytheism.
In this post I will attempt to explain how the son could pray to
the Father and still not be two separate gods (or persons). The
key to understanding this is understanding "flesh" and
"spirit":......
Here, we see that God the Father of the old testament does NOT
have flesh and bone (so consider also "The Right Hand" does not
mean a big ole arm)..See, God is a Spirit and a spirit hath NOT
flesh and bone.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye
see me have.
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must
worship [him] in spirit and in truth....
Also notice the importance of TRUTH in worshiping God, We MUST
know WHO we are worshipping! God of the old testament came to
earth in human form, he did NOT have blood to shed for anyone;
sooooo he took on a human body and came to his people:......
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
II Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling
the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
In other words God came in the form of Christ, not a "second
person" or "Jehovah Jr.", but God HIMSELF in a human body..the
Lord of Glory himself....
I Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew:
for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord
of glory.
God did not send anyone else to "do the dirty work"; HE CAME
HIMSELF and took on a life and then gave up that life for us!!
I John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid
down his life for us...."
God himself in a human body, but even then the Spirit of God was
greater than the flesh of God..even God had to keep his flesh in
subjection to his Spirit..It was not the flesh body of God that
did the miracles, but rather the Spirit that was in the
body...and, in the garden it was flesh praying to Spirit (not one
god praying to another)
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of
myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne
witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor
seen his shape.
(The Father IN the son=The Spirit in the flesh)
Matthew 13:17 {For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and
righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see,
and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye
hear, and have not heard [them].}
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud
overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which
said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye
him.
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art
my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
II Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and
glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent
glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(Notice "IN WHOM" in each verse, the Father (spirit) was IN the
son (flesh)).
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with
you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me
hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the
Father?
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of
myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the
works.....
Jesus Christ, Jehovah God in the flesh....Why is this so
important?!?
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, {The first of all the
commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:}
Not three lords, not "three separate persons", ONE GOD:
JESUS!!.....
Pastor sTeve Winter
--
1Cor. 1:18 ? For the message of the cross is foolishness to
those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it
is the power of God.
(Read John MacArthur's "Ashamed of the Gospel" when the church becomes like the world).
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
