On Thu, 25 May 2006 10:22:12 -0700, oldwetdog <oldwetdog@yahooD0Tnet>
wrote:

Where does Ezekiel chapter 39 fit into all this mess?

On Thu, 25 May 2006 10:22:12 -0700, oldwetdog <oldwetdog@yahooD0Tnet>
wrote:

Pulpitfire wrote:

gam wrote:

Pulpitfire wrote:

oldwetdog wrote:

Pulpitfire wrote:

oldwetdog wrote:

Pulpitfire wrote:

Until now, I do not understand what you are proposing regarding
what you think the correct interpretation of 1 Thess. 4:15-17
is. Specifically, I don't get why you think the souls Christ
brings with Him

no scripture says "souls Christ brings with him..."

And where are the quote marks that would indicate

the quote marks indicate that I am quoting YOU...
You wrote
quote:

Specifically, I don't get why you think the souls Christ

brings

with Him

end quote.

nothing below has anything to do with the fact that

You wrote
quote:

Specifically, I don't get why you think the souls Christ

brings

with Him

end quote.

Now, are those your words?

just reply yes or no.

Those are your words, or those are NOT your words.

nothing below has anything to do with the fact that *YOU* posted the
words above.

Did you, or did you NOT post the words quoted above?

All we want here is a yes, or a NO.

Saying the Bible says something is not the same as saying the Bible
says "something".

Yes, saying the Bible says something is EXACTLY the same as saying
"the Bible says something."

If you state, say, infer or imply that something is in God's Word,

and

it is not, then you are a LIAR.


If I don't put quote marks around it, then you can't claim

the teaching is false based simply on the fact that that exact word
does not appear in that text, since I never said it did. If that
were the case, 1) We'd all have to speak in Hebrew, Aramaic, and
Greek, to be consistent with the exact words of the Bible, 2) you'd
have to immediately throw out your World War II and flu epidemic
interpretations based on the fact those exact words don't appear in
the Bible, and 3) we'd all be reduced to a "ReadtheBible" style
presentations of our faith--i.e. simply going around quoting

passages

of Scripture.

where you got those words I have noooooo idea...
Where you got the idea, I got nooooo idea,

but you wrote 'em, and I noted that you wrote 'em

See, just look up a few lines and there they are!! YOUR own

words....

Revelation 20 refers to the beheaded saints who have not yet been
resurrected as "souls". Therefore, if 1 Thessalonians 4--when it
refers to those whom Christ brings with Him--is referring to those
who died in Christ, it is Biblical to call them "souls".

We know who the dead is... we know what "soul" and "souls" means.
that is not the question:
the questions is: did you post the words above?

That these who sleep ARE those who have died in Christ, seems

evident

for the following reasons:

1) Because the Thessalonians were sorrowing about "them which are
asleep". Why would they be sorrowful if someone were just sleeping,
and not dead?

We know what dead means.
that is not the question:
the questions is: did you post the words above?

2) Because Paul comforts them with the hope of the resurrection. It
doesn't make any sense that they would be sorrowing about them that
sleep, and then that Paul would comfort them with the hope of the
resurrection, if the passage weren't referring to those who
physically died in Christ.

3) Because the Bible frequently uses the word "sleep", to refer to
those who have died:

No problem: we know what sleep means...
that is not the question:
the questions is: did you post the words above?

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints
which slept <2837> arose,
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them,
Our friend Lazarus sleepeth <2837>; but I go, that I may awake him
out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep <2837>, he
shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought

that he

had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Ac 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay
not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell
asleep <2837>.
etc.

etc is not the question:
the questions is: did you post the words above?

1) I'm not going to get tangled up in a three day argument which is
nothing more than wrangling about words, and which is of no profit to
those who listen. I already said the words, admitted I said them,

Thank you for your admission.

You convict me of nothing. Days and many posts into this argument, all
you are doing is making unsupported accusations against my use of the
word "soul". You have no exegetical refutation of anything I said, that
I've seen to date. You're arguments are a distraction and convince me
of nothing, except that you need a distraction.

and

showed why the theology was correct,

No, you showed why you THINK they are correct...


even if the exact word I used was

not a direct quote. What's your point?

2) When people get caught up in stuff like this, trying to make a

When you say something which is not true, not accurate nor
correct, then drag out correcting your error, you make
communication impossible.

And you can't argue either against the exegesis which was presented, or
even against the whole sentences which were used to make them. All you
can do is cut a few phrases out here and there, and make unsupported
accusations. Well, good for you. All this time later, the only thing
that has happened is a waste of time and a distraction from the truth.
Are you done yet?

Blah, Blah, blah, you attempt one distraction and false
accusation after another...

Your false statement(s) is on record.

Following is a cut and paste of your statements:

first cut and past:
Until now, I do not understand what you are proposing regarding
what you think the correct interpretation of 1 Thess. 4:15-17 is.
Specifically, I don't get why you think the souls Christ brings
with Him can't be those who died in Christ, or why you think
anything the passage says would indicate there is going to be no
rapture for those who are alive and remain.
end first.

second cut and paste:
Revelation 20 refers to the beheaded saints who have not yet been
resurrected as "souls". Therefore, if 1 Thessalonians 4--when it
refers to those whom Christ brings with Him--is referring to
those who died in Christ, it is Biblical to call them "souls".
end second cut and paste.

to see your words in complete context, see
http://tinyurl.com/na9cw

Your mis-translation and misinterpretation of God's Word is on
record,

So what are you going to do, Randy?
are you going to claim that I have somehow misrepresented your words?

Are you going to begin another misleading distraction over the
mis use of quote marks?

Namely: the Scripture does not say -beheaded saints- those are
your words.

Namely: The Scripture does not say -souls Christ brings with Him-
those are your words.

I don't need to prove you made them. Anyone who cares to will
read 1 Thes 4:14-17 and Rev 201-6 can see that your
misinterpretation of Paul's words is exactly that: and, then you
go on to build false doctrine on your misinterpretation.

Your use of Big Words like "exegesis" and "ibid" does not matter,
the lie of 'the rapture' and millennial reign has been exposed --
as have your avoidance tactics.

Your so called "exegesis" supporting millennial reign has been
proved wrong on several points.
there is no scripture which says Christ will reign on this earth.
Rev 20:106 does not say that -
Rev 11:17-15 does not say that -

You mis-translate scripture (in your effort to support false
doctrine) in exactly the same way you mis-translate my statements.

Your so called "exegesis" defending the age old Jewish theory of
the re-establishment of the physical kingdom of David has been
proved false...Isa 29:11-12, Luke 24:45.
http://tinyurl.com/mjjyp

Your so called "exegesis" supporting the false Doctrine of 'the
rapture' has been proved false.
1 Thes 4-14-17 does NOT say that we will be 'raptured'
It DOES say that we will be Caught Up at the same time as those
who are resurrected, and that event is described in Mat 24:31, 1
Cor 15:50-54

Your so called "exegesis" supporting your false doctrine of the
millennial reign and rapture -- That the Seventh Trumpet, Last
Trumpet, the Trump of God, the Great Sound of a Trumpet and the
Great Trumpet are not the same trumpet -- has been proved a lie.

http://geocities.com/gaedhealic/seventh.html

The Seventh Trumpet IS The Last Trumpet IS the Trumpet of God,
and those events described with them all occur when the Lord
comes on That Day, the Day of God, The Day of the Lord. Mat
24:7-10, 15-21, 29-31,34, 2 Peter 3:3-12.



Randy, your delusion is wearing thin, give-it-up before you
accept the mark of the beast and worship the false god of Modern
Rome.


owd
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/main/about/signs.html

Where does Ezekiel chapter 39 fit into all this mess?

You put a couple terse, cut-and-paste style paragraphs, summarily
stating what your position is, at the very end of your post. That's
about as close as you come to offering any Scriptural reason for
anyone
to believe your interpretation of those passages is correct, or that
mine is not. There is, therefore, no noble basis for anyone to
conclude that what you say, is "so" (Acts 17:11). Dogmatic
contentions, word wrangling, railing accusations, and convoluted
misrepresentation, are a distraction that is not serving your
position, reputation, credibility,
or those who want to know the truth well.

1) "Harpazo" (1 Thess. 4:15-17) means "rapture" just as much as it
does "caught up". The english translation is NOT the inspired one.
Arguing against that is false word wrangling that only injures your
own credibility.

2) Why should anyone believe, when Revelation 19 says the saints in
"heaven" "follow" Christ to the marriage supper of God, where they
battle against the "kings of the earth", that both the saints and
Christ are not literally coming from heaven to earth? (Rev. 19).
Remember, "literally" basically means that the Bible means what it
says, and says what it means.

3) Why, after showing Christ and the saints coming from heaven to
earth, should we not believe it is not literally from earth that
Christ will "rule the nations with a rod of iron"? Remember,
"literally" basically means that the Bible means what it says, and
says what it means.

4) Where does Revelation 19-20 say the saints "followed" Christ back
to "heaven" after the battle against the "kings of the earth"?

5) Why should we not believe that when Revelation 20 says the saints
"reign with Christ for a thousand years", from a camp which, at the
end
of the "thousand years", will be surrounded by "the nations of the
four quarters of the earth", is not literally on "earth"? Remember,
"literally" basically means that the Bible means what it says, and
says what it means.

6) Why, when Revelation 19 teaches Christ engaged in battle with the
"kings of the earth", after the saints in heaven "followed' Him to
this battle, and teaches that he will rule these nations with a rod
of iron, should we not conclude that He is indeed literally ruling
these nations
on earth when the saints "reign with Him for a thousand years"?
Remember, "literally" basically means that the Bible means what it
says, and says what it means.

7) Where have you offered anything more than dogmatism to refute the
following reasons why the church will be raptured before the
Tribulation?

1) Because the Tribulation is the time of "Jacob's trouble", not the
churches' (Jeremiah
30:7).

The prophecies of Daniel 9, and the 70th week (which is the seven year
Tribulation), are addressed primarily to the nation Israel and
describe
the events leading to her restoration to the city and sanctuary. The
twofold purpose of the Tribulation, is to prepare Israel,
spiritually, for the Messiah she rejected the first time (Jeremiah
30-33), and to rain judgment on the "inhabitants of the earth" (Rev.
3"10; 8:13). The only places in the gospel that refer to how God's
people should prepare for Tribulation life, are where He is addressing
Jews--primarily in Matthew, and a little in Luke. The gospel of
John--mainly addressing church age saints-- warns only of general
persecution that will come from men opposed to the truth, and not of
God's wrath being poured out on his bride the church. Read Revelation
12, to see who the players are during the Tribulation. The woman who
gave birth to the male child, is clearly
the nation Israel, not the church.


2) Because the rapture (catching up) is not part of the Day of the
Lord.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul has to educate them about the rapture
of the church, and our being caught up together with Him in the air.
By sharp contrast ("But") to the events of this rapture, he tells them
they already knew full well about the events of the "day of the
Lord"--the time when Tribulation judgment would fall on the
inhabitants
of the earth.

Now how could they know full well about the Tribulation, but nothing
about the catching up (rapture) of the church? It seems the only way
is if the rapture of the church is not part of the events of the
Tribulation, in Scripture. If that's the case, then the rapture must
occur before the events of the Day of the Lord.


3) Because we're supposed to comfort one another with the hope of the
rapture (1 Thess. 4:18).

It would be hard to imagine "these words" as being a "comfort", if the
Thessalonians thought they'd have to endure the Tribulation before
they would get raptured.


4) Because we are not children of darkness (1 Thess. 5:5).

Regarding those events of the day of the Lord's judgment, Paul said
church age believers are not children of darkness, that the day of the
Lord should overtake them like a thief. It is the children of
darkness, and not children of light, who are overtaken, like a thief,
by the day of the Lord's judgment (5:4-5). It is when "they" (not
"you") say "peace and safety", that destruction shall come upon
"them". You might say then, that they will simply not be overtaken
by the day
the way a thief is, but read on, where the passage shows God has not
appointed us to this Tribulation wrath at all.


5) Because God has not appointed us to wrath (1 Thess. 5:8-10).

The Tribulation is an outpouring of God's wrath (Rev. 6:16-17; 11:18;
14:19; 15:1; 16:1, 19), and a time of His judgment (Rev. 6:10; 11:10;
13:8, 12, 14;14:7; 15:4; 16:5-7; 17:8; 19:2) and punishment (Isa.
24:21-22). In contrast to the drunken sleepers who will be overtaken
like a thief by the day of the Lord's judgment (which includes the
Tribulation, and not just eternal damnation), we, who are sober, are
supposed to put on
for a helmet, the "hope of salvation" (1 Thess. 5:8-10). Why?
Because
God has "NOT
[emphasis mine] appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our
Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we
should live together with him." This knowledge is supposed to be a
comfort, regarding not only those who sleep in Christ, but also the
day
of the Lord's judgment. Whether we are alive or dead, we will be with
the Lord, and not experiencing the wrath of God that falls on the
drunken sleepers who are children of darkness (cf. Ephesians
5:8,13,14).


6) Because the rapture assures us we have not entered the Tribulation
(2 Thess. 2)

The Thessalonians were troubled by the thought that maybe they had
already entered the day of Tribulation. Paul besought them by the
hope
of the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together
unto Him", that they had not already entered the day of Christ's
judgment (2 Thess 2:1-2). This prospect of the coming of the Lord,
and gathering of the saints to be with Him, would not be a proof for
them,
that they had not entered the Tribulation, if they had to endure the
entire, or even part of the Tribulation, before they were gathered to
the Lord. They could not have entered the time of judgment (and
neither could we), because the gathering of church age saints (whether
they sleep or are alive) to the Lord will occur first, and this is the
hope by which Paul besought them.


7) Because God promised to deliver the church from the hour of
Tribulation (Revelation 3:10)

In Revelation 3:10, God promises to deliver the church from the very
hour in which the testing occurs for "them" "that dwell upon the
earth". How can they be delivered from testing that falls on earth
dwellers, and from the very hour in which the testing occurs, if they
still dwell on earth, or in a realm where earth time applies?
Apparently, the church will not dwell on earth during the hour the
testing occurs. This truth applies to whomever "has an ear" in the
"churches" (v13).


8) Because John was called up to heaven before the "things which
shall be hereafter" (Rev 4:1)

In Revelation 1:19, John was told to write the "things which thou hast
seen " (vision of the resurrected Christ), the "things which are"
(letters to the "churches"), and the "things which shall be hereafter"
(Tribulation wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth). The letters to
the churches conclude the "the things which are". But before God
shows
him the "things which shall be hereafter", He calls him up into
heaven, from earth (4:1). It is not until he is in heaven
that he sees the judgments which shall be "hereafter", falling on
"them
who dwell on the earth". This is in keeping with the promise God just
made in Revelation 3:10, that the church will not go through the hour
of testing that falls on "them that dwell upon the earth", and that
the church (addressed in the "things which are"), is not part of the
"things which shall be hereafter".


9) Because Tribulation saints are not the "church".

Revelation 1-3 addresses believers as the "church" something like 19
times before Revelation 4 refers to the judgments which shall be
"hereafter" falling on "the inhabitants of the earth". Then, during
the time of the Tribulation, instantly believers are referred to only
by terms like "saints", and there is not one reference to the
"church". Israel, and the 144,000 chosen from the twelve tribes are
the subjects
of God's sealing during that time, and not the church (cf. Revelation
12).

Now, is it just a coincidence Revelation refers to church age
believers, during the "things which are", as the "church" 19 times,
and then instantly stops calling believers the "church" once John is
raptured to heaven and the "things which shall be hereafter" begin?
It seems highly unlikely to me.

10) Because the church returns with Christ to earth, at the end of the
Tribulation (Rev. 19).

2 Corinthians 11:2 says the church is being presented as a chaste
virgin to Christ. Ephesians 5:27-32 says the relationship between
husband and wife is a picture of the union of Christ and the church.
The Lord is purifying the church for himself, so He may present it to
himself without spot or wrinkle. Then, in Revelation 19, we have the
bride, coming with Christ, from heaven, dressed in fine white
garments, which is the righteousness of the saints. This seems to
show that the church is not on earth during the Tribulation, but is
with Christ, in heaven. This also seems consistent with the fact
that the twenty four elders are introduced right after John has been
raptured to heaven at
the end of the "things which are" (church age), and before he sees
the things "which shall be hereafter".


11) Because the return of Christ for the church is could happen at any
time (John
14:2-3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess.
1:10; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).

Matthew, and other passages primarily addressed to Jews, warns Israel
to prepare for the Tribulation. John, and passages addressed
primarily
to the church, however, make no mention of preparing for the
Tribulation that God will pour on earth, but only for the general
tribulation and persecution that will come from men opposed to the
truth. There, we find such comforts as in John 14:2-3, where Christ
tells us not to let our hearts be troubled, since He is going to
prepare a place for us, and will come again to take us to be with Him.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 tells us to wait for the Son from heaven, which
"delivered us from the wrath to come". Every indication for the
church, seems to be to expect that the Lord could arrive at any moment
to translate us into His presence and glory (cf. Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4;
1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3-4).

By contrast, we know from the prophecies in Daniel, that once the 70th
week of the Tribulation begins, it will last almost exactly seven
years. Once the man of sin is revealed (2 Thess. 2), you can pretty
much tell down to the day when Christ will return to earth, and His
return will therefor no longer be possible at any moment.


12) Because saved but unglorified people must populate the millennial
kingdom (Rev. 20).

We know that when the resurrection and rapture occurs, it will
immediately transform all church age believer's bodies to their
glorified state (1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 4). We also know that in the
glorified state, believers do not die or reproduce (Matt. 22:30).
Only believers enter the millennial kingdom of Christ (Matt.
25:32-46), yet there is reproduction, difference of age, death, and
rebellion during
that time (Isa. 65:20; Zech. 8:5; Rev. 20:12). This means that saved,
but unglorified people must enter the millennial kingdom of Christ.
If
the rapture occurs any time after the Tribulation has begun up until
Christ returns and establishes His 1,000 year reign on earth (Rev.
20),
the Tribulation saints who enter it would possess glorified bodies
incapable of marriage, reproduction, death, or rebellion. Since all
these occur during the millennium that follows the Tribulation, the
saints who enter it from the Tribulation cannot be the church, which
looks forward to the rapture and translation (1 Thess. 4).

I don't believe God has appointed the church to the wrath which Paul
said would overtake the children of darkness during the "day of the
Lord" (1 Thess. 5), but to salvation, through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul beseeches us, by the hope of our gathering to the Lord, not to
think we have entered into the day of the Lord, and exhorts us to
comfort one another with the hope of being raptured.

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