| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Falkentyne" |
| Date: |
15 Feb 2004 06:20:47 PM |
| Object: |
Re: 15/2 The OT prophecies, as quoted by the NT |
On 14 Feb 2004 22:35:22 -0800, (Eliyahu)
enlightened us by scribbling this gem of wisdom:
(snip)
Another OT prophecy, as quoted by the NT:
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was
in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in
Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under,
according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men.
Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: "A voice
was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for
her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."
Matthew 2:16-18
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about the slaughter of
children, taking place in the days of the birth of the messiah.
Now read here what is really happening in that text: Jeremiah
31:10-21;
""Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the
coastlands afar off; say, `He who scattered Israel will gather him,
and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' For the LORD has
ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him.
They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall
be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine,
and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life
shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more.
Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and
the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will
comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. I will feast the
soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied
with my goodness, says the LORD." Thus says the LORD: "A voice is
heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for
her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because
they are not." Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping,
and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the
LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. There is
hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back
to their own country. I have heard E'phraim bemoaning, `Thou hast
chastened me, and I was chastened, like an untrained calf; bring me
back that I may be restored, for thou art the LORD my God. For after
I had turned away I repented; and after I was instructed, I smote upon
my thigh; I was ashamed, and I was confounded, because I bore the
disgrace of my youth.' Is E'phraim my dear son? Is he my darling
child? For as often as I speak against him, I do remember him still.
Therefore my heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him,
says the LORD."
As everyone can see; this speaks about Israel which was exiled and of
which God says it would return from the land of the enemy.
So this is another text which has nothing to do with murdering
children in the days of the messiah, a text which is ripped out of
context and presented to us as a messianic prophecy, which it is not.
(snip)
I have opened my Bible, and read the two passages from Jeremiah, and
Matthew. And it seems that you are telling the truth here.
Can someone please explain ?
It surely -->DOES<-- seem very clear to me that the Jeremiah passage
is discussing the restoration of Israel / lifting Israel from its
enemy, and NOT about Herod killing the children.
Although, in Matthew, the land is called " Rama", and the woman is
called " Rachael", while in Jeremiah, the land is " Ramah" and the
woman is Rahel. (Why the spelling difference?).
So, WHY is this mentioned in Matthew ?
Something doesn't make sense here.
by the way, in my KJV, the passage reads a bit different:
Matthew: 2:18 and following verses
===================================================
18: " In Rama there was a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and
great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be
comforted, because they are not".
19: "But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth
in a dream to Joseph, in Egypt,
20: "Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go
into the land of Israel, for they are dead which sought the young
child's life
(comment here: How does a prophecy about Israel being delivered from
its enemies, and a woman crying because her children are in the land
of the enemy, have anything to do with Herod?!
Oh, and need I also say, since *WHEN* does "children" suddenly
become " child"?!
===================================================
Jeremiah 31:15:
===================================================
" Thus Saith the Lord: A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation and
bitter weeping, Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted
for her children, because they were not.
16: "Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine
eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and
they shall come again from the land of the enemy"
(comment here: clearly Rahel was NOT weeping for dead children, but
for "captured" children, or children stuck in the enemy's land, or
equivalent. Anyone that thinks otherwise simply can't read.)
17: " And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy
children shall come again to their own border".
comment: (CLEARLY THIS IS NOT talking about Christ, Joseph, the woman,
nor about the children murdered by Herod).
====================================================
Anyone have any comments?
I am feeling very angry after reading the obvious false words by
Matthew here, regarding the Old Testament prophecy. As to how this
got into here, as mentioned by Matthew as a prophecy of Christ, is
really beyond me.
<Gibs> When you kill 6 people in Unreal Tournament
it is "MonsterKill", In Quake3 it is "Excellent",
in Counter-Strike it is "Kicked by console"
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: 15/2 The OT prophecies, as quoted by the NT |
15 Feb 2004 10:46:43 PM |
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Falkentyne wrote:
On 14 Feb 2004 22:35:22 -0800, (Eliyahu)
enlightened us by scribbling this gem of wisdom:
(snip)
Another OT prophecy, as quoted by the NT:
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was
in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in
Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under,
according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men.
Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: "A voice
was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for
her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."
Matthew 2:16-18
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about the slaughter of
children, taking place in the days of the birth of the messiah.
Now read here what is really happening in that text: Jeremiah
31:10-21;
""Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the
coastlands afar off; say, `He who scattered Israel will gather him,
and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' For the LORD has
ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him.
They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall
be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine,
and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life
shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more.
Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and
the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will
comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. I will feast the
soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied
with my goodness, says the LORD." Thus says the LORD: "A voice is
heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for
her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because
they are not." Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping,
and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the
LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. There is
hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back
to their own country. I have heard E'phraim bemoaning, `Thou hast
chastened me, and I was chastened, like an untrained calf; bring me
back that I may be restored, for thou art the LORD my God. For after
I had turned away I repented; and after I was instructed, I smote upon
my thigh; I was ashamed, and I was confounded, because I bore the
disgrace of my youth.' Is E'phraim my dear son? Is he my darling
child? For as often as I speak against him, I do remember him still.
Therefore my heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him,
says the LORD."
As everyone can see; this speaks about Israel which was exiled and of
which God says it would return from the land of the enemy.
So this is another text which has nothing to do with murdering
children in the days of the messiah, a text which is ripped out of
context and presented to us as a messianic prophecy, which it is not.
(snip)
I have opened my Bible, and read the two passages from Jeremiah, and
Matthew. And it seems that you are telling the truth here.
Can someone please explain ?
It surely -->DOES<-- seem very clear to me that the Jeremiah passage
is discussing the restoration of Israel / lifting Israel from its
enemy, and NOT about Herod killing the children.
Although, in Matthew, the land is called " Rama", and the woman is
called " Rachael", while in Jeremiah, the land is " Ramah" and the
woman is Rahel. (Why the spelling difference?).
So, WHY is this mentioned in Matthew ?
Something doesn't make sense here.
===>The author of "Matthew" deceptively quoted passages his
reader did no have a chance to verify.
.
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| User: "TehGhodTrole" |
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| Title: Re: 15/2 The OT prophecies, as quoted by the NT |
15 Feb 2004 11:13:27 PM |
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Libertarius wrote:
===>The author of "Matthew" deceptively quoted passages his
reader did no have a chance to verify.
Look, instead of making all these wild postulations, why not go direct to
the Hebrew text and translate it into your native language? Don't buy a
translation, do the work yourself.
Once you've done that, you can post back in a few decades and tell everyone
about how you discovered that the Bible is a conspiracy of the NSA's Remote
Electric Method of Mind Control - Illness and Death Induced by Surveillance
Stations Located at Major City Intersections Around Where You Live
Department. You can enthrall everyone with accusations that they are the
same folks that put transmitters into loonies' heads, cause planes to fall
out of the sky and mysterious road accidents to occur, as well as them
having direct but surreptitious dealings with criminal space aliens intent
on taking over the Alabama Boondocks.
HTH
--
TehGhodTrole: Trolling, for God's sake.
Your Free Insult: Jesus loves you.
.
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| User: "Ray Michael OKeeffe" |
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| Title: Re: 15/2 The OT prophecies, as quoted by the NT |
15 Feb 2004 11:22:37 PM |
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Hi Falkentyne
Many do not realise the full extent of bible prophecy and seek to put it
into boxes. There are many scriptures seemingly quoted out of context by the
disciples, and yet fulfill a different angle.
We do not understand all, and those who try to say this is all there is, are
often wrong. If you read all those with some authority in this news group,
you will find that most do not agree on more than one issue of many, and
most disagree with everyone else.
I do not profess to understand all, only that which I have looked at as it
makes sense to me in a practical non religious sense.
PS. if you see Dore walking on water, please swerve around her.
--
Peace and Love
Jesus is Lord
The signs of the beast are here now!
Pointing to Jesus return!
www.id-chip.4t.com
God foreknew I would do these things from curiosity to know more.
www.id-chip.4t.com/personalsummary.htm
Ray Michael O'Keeffe
raymokeeffe@888hotmail.com
(Remove the 888 to email)
(please do not send attachments for all mail with attachments is filtered as
junk mail and deleted)
news:alt.bible.prophecy
====================================
"Falkentyne" <nospam@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:111030hfg19vcrga5qhn7g41um7ukamnrl@4ax.com...
On 14 Feb 2004 22:35:22 -0800, (Eliyahu)
enlightened us by scribbling this gem of wisdom:
(snip)
Another OT prophecy, as quoted by the NT:
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was
in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in
Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under,
according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men.
Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: "A voice
was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for
her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."
Matthew 2:16-18
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about the slaughter of
children, taking place in the days of the birth of the messiah.
Now read here what is really happening in that text: Jeremiah
31:10-21;
""Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the
coastlands afar off; say, `He who scattered Israel will gather him,
and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' For the LORD has
ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him.
They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall
be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine,
and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life
shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more.
Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and
the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will
comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. I will feast the
soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied
with my goodness, says the LORD." Thus says the LORD: "A voice is
heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for
her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because
they are not." Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping,
and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the
LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. There is
hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back
to their own country. I have heard E'phraim bemoaning, `Thou hast
chastened me, and I was chastened, like an untrained calf; bring me
back that I may be restored, for thou art the LORD my God. For after
I had turned away I repented; and after I was instructed, I smote upon
my thigh; I was ashamed, and I was confounded, because I bore the
disgrace of my youth.' Is E'phraim my dear son? Is he my darling
child? For as often as I speak against him, I do remember him still.
Therefore my heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him,
says the LORD."
As everyone can see; this speaks about Israel which was exiled and of
which God says it would return from the land of the enemy.
So this is another text which has nothing to do with murdering
children in the days of the messiah, a text which is ripped out of
context and presented to us as a messianic prophecy, which it is not.
(snip)
I have opened my Bible, and read the two passages from Jeremiah, and
Matthew. And it seems that you are telling the truth here.
Can someone please explain ?
It surely -->DOES<-- seem very clear to me that the Jeremiah passage
is discussing the restoration of Israel / lifting Israel from its
enemy, and NOT about Herod killing the children.
Although, in Matthew, the land is called " Rama", and the woman is
called " Rachael", while in Jeremiah, the land is " Ramah" and the
woman is Rahel. (Why the spelling difference?).
So, WHY is this mentioned in Matthew ?
Something doesn't make sense here.
by the way, in my KJV, the passage reads a bit different:
Matthew: 2:18 and following verses
===================================================
18: " In Rama there was a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and
great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be
comforted, because they are not".
19: "But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth
in a dream to Joseph, in Egypt,
20: "Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go
into the land of Israel, for they are dead which sought the young
child's life
(comment here: How does a prophecy about Israel being delivered from
its enemies, and a woman crying because her children are in the land
of the enemy, have anything to do with Herod?!
Oh, and need I also say, since *WHEN* does "children" suddenly
become " child"?!
===================================================
Jeremiah 31:15:
===================================================
" Thus Saith the Lord: A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation and
bitter weeping, Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted
for her children, because they were not.
16: "Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine
eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and
they shall come again from the land of the enemy"
(comment here: clearly Rahel was NOT weeping for dead children, but
for "captured" children, or children stuck in the enemy's land, or
equivalent. Anyone that thinks otherwise simply can't read.)
17: " And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy
children shall come again to their own border".
comment: (CLEARLY THIS IS NOT talking about Christ, Joseph, the woman,
nor about the children murdered by Herod).
====================================================
Anyone have any comments?
I am feeling very angry after reading the obvious false words by
Matthew here, regarding the Old Testament prophecy. As to how this
got into here, as mentioned by Matthew as a prophecy of Christ, is
really beyond me.
<Gibs> When you kill 6 people in Unreal Tournament
it is "MonsterKill", In Quake3 it is "Excellent",
in Counter-Strike it is "Kicked by console"
.
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| User: "Falkentyne" |
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| Title: Re: 15/2 The OT prophecies, as quoted by the NT |
16 Feb 2004 03:23:13 AM |
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:22:37 GMT, "Ray Michael OKeeffe"
<raymokeeffe@888hotmail.com> enlightened us by scribbling this gem of
wisdom:
Hi Falkentyne
Many do not realise the full extent of bible prophecy and seek to put it
into boxes. There are many scriptures seemingly quoted out of context by the
disciples, and yet fulfill a different angle.
Well, my opinion is this:
I don't think that the Bible was written for people with an IQ of 150.
It was written, for the average open-minded and diligent person, to be
able to understand. (Now, the "wisdom" passage, about calculating the
Beast's identity, does take some brains, and is also possibly time
related, as hotly discussed earlier). So, when I read some story or
prophecy, and read another passage that refers to it incorrectly, it
doesn't matter how faithful I am. I consider myself a rather
intelligent person, and I'm absolutely convinced this Matthew passage
simply does NOT belong here, unless it was put there deliberately (as
others suggested).
But it's quite clear to me that the author of Matthew is either trying
to mislead us deliberately, or someone made some crucial mistake.
The bottom line is, this mistake was clearly done by humans, and NOT
by God. And God does not make mistakes.
What more it might imply, and what research I will do, regarding the
validity of the Messiah, I really don't know. I simply have to do my
own research, and compare the OT and NT's with an open heart, open
mind, and open soul.
And accept whatever conclusion I find.
And pray to the Lord God, that I am not sinning by doing so, and if I
am, then ask for his forgiveness, for this is something I am going to
do.
<Gibs> When you kill 6 people in Unreal Tournament
it is "MonsterKill", In Quake3 it is "Excellent",
in Counter-Strike it is "Kicked by console"
.
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| User: "Jope" |
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| Title: Re: 15/2 The OT prophecies, as quoted by the NT |
18 Feb 2004 09:14:37 AM |
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When using the prophectic language,the bible often refers to different
events in the same passage: One pertaining to the actual reality,
while others refer to the spiritual.
For instance : In the book of Isaiah ,the bible is talking about the
king of Babylon :
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of
Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city
ceased!
But in verse 12 and 13 it says:
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the
morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the
nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into
heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also
upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
So we know the bible is talking here about the devil not just the
king of Babylon.
Likewise in the book of Ezekiel:
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus,
and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum,
full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set
thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up
and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast
created, till iniquity was found in thee.
The bible is talking of both the king of Tyrus and also and the
devil.
The following passages refer to the antichrist:
Eze 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the
chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a
cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will
bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall
be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord
GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God,
I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a
man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart
of God:
Concerning the gospels.They were written in the following
fashion:
Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a
declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luke 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning
were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luke 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding
of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most
excellent Theophilus
So now we see that the authors went to the process of interviewing
the actual eyewitness of the time .While is not known how some
irregularities may have manage to slip in.
You can be certain that there is a valid explaination.
John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his
disciples, which are not written in this book:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is
the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life
through his name.
.
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| User: "Falkentyne" |
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| Title: Re: 15/2 The OT prophecies, as quoted by the NT |
16 Feb 2004 03:23:13 AM |
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:22:37 GMT, "Ray Michael OKeeffe"
<raymokeeffe@888hotmail.com> enlightened us by scribbling this gem of
wisdom:
PS. if you see Dore walking on water, please swerve around her.
LOL...i almost spit up my coke when I read that.....
<Gibs> When you kill 6 people in Unreal Tournament
it is "MonsterKill", In Quake3 it is "Excellent",
in Counter-Strike it is "Kicked by console"
.
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| User: "Misty" |
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| Title: Re: 15/2 The OT prophecies, as quoted by the NT |
18 Feb 2004 03:27:52 AM |
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I do not know about Dore, but I walk on the water every time I go
fishing.
I like walking on the "sea" the best,
Misty,
Falkentyne wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:22:37 GMT, "Ray Michael OKeeffe"
<raymokeeffe@888hotmail.com> enlightened us by scribbling this gem of
wisdom:
PS. if you see Dore walking on water, please swerve around her.
LOL...i almost spit up my coke when I read that.....
<Gibs> When you kill 6 people in Unreal Tournament
it is "MonsterKill", In Quake3 it is "Excellent",
in Counter-Strike it is "Kicked by console"
.
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