| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Read The Bible" |
| Date: |
04 Jan 2007 03:16:03 AM |
| Object: |
Re: 2 questions |
Andrew W said on Jan 3, 10:27 pm: Christians
believe that Jesus sacrificed himself (performed
a human blood sacrifice) to save us from our sins.
Yes; they believe that based on what Jesus said;
"This is my blood of the new testament, which is
shed for many for the remission of sins" (Mt. 26:28).
Andrew said: Jesus himself taught a way that
specifically denies both the necessity and the
value of blood sacrifices.
Are you thinking of when Jesus said the following?
"Go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have
mercy, and not sacrifice, for I am not come to call
the righteous, but sinners to repentance"
(Mt. 9:13); "If ye had known what this meaneth, I
will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not
have condemned the guiltless" (Mt. 12:7).
Or, when Jesus agreed with a man who said the
following? "To love [God] with all the heart, and
with all the understanding, and with all the soul,
and with all the strength, and to love his
neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt
offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that
he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art
not far from the kingdom of God" (Mk. 12:33-34).
Or, when Jesus said the following? "He said,
Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and
offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst
pleasure therein (which are offered by the law);
then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He
taketh away the first, that he may establish the
second. By the which will we are sanctified through
the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for
all" (Heb. 10:5-10).
If you're thinking of verses other than these, post
them in this thread so we can see that they say. For
now, we can look at the ones quoted above.
In Mt. 9:13, 12:7, Jesus was quoting from "I
desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge
of God more than burnt offerings" (Hos. 6:6). This
meant that to God a legalistic person's sacrifices
were completely useless if he or she showed no mercy
to others, and had no real knowledge of God. In Mt.
9:13, Jesus quoted Hos. 6:6 to legalistic people who
were showing no mercy (Mt. 9:11), and in Mt. 12:7 He
quoted it to legalistic people who didn't realize
that Jesus was God (Mt. 12:6,8). Jesus didn't mean
that no people in His time should offer sacrifices,
for He specifically commanded one person to do so in
Mt. 8:4. Jesus nowhere says that sacrifices were
wrong in themselves, if they were done with a right
heart (cf. Mt. 5:23-24).
Mk. 12:33-34 is similar to the idea of Hos. 6:6,
i.e. if a legalistic person doesn't show love to
others or to God, then their sacrifices aren't
worth very much. But this didn't mean that no
people in Jesus' time should ever offer sacrifices.
Heb. 10:5-10 explains what happened on the cross
when Jesus offered His own body as the single,
one-time sacrifice of the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28);
His sacrifice completely replaced all the Old
Covenant sacrifices for sin (Heb. 10:14-18).
Andrew said: Why did Jesus carry out an action
that he himself said has no value?
Where did Jesus say that His sacrifice had no value?
Andrew said: What was the TRUE reason for Jesus
allowing himself to be crucified?
To serve as the propitiation for our sins (1 Jn.
4:10, Rom. 3:25).
Andrew said: Why do most Christians believe so
strongly that the Bible is God's directly and
accurately inspired word?
All true faith comes not by a person deciding on his
or her own to believe, but by God Himself deciding
that that person will believe (Jn. 6:44, Acts
13:48), for faith is God's sovereign gift (Eph. 2:8,
Jn. 6:65). This is why true Christians can't ever be
"reasoned" out of their faith in the Bible: just as
their faith didn't come from "reason", so it can't
be extinguished by "reason". I put "reason" in
quotes to indicate the purported "reason" of
unbelievers, a "reason" which thinks that it can
prove the Bible isn't true, when in fact there's
no proof based on reason that the Bible isn't true;
there are only opinions that it isn't true. The most
that can be said by reason is that there's no
objective proof that the Bible is true, and
Christians agree with that, for their proof isn't
objective, but the subjective proof, the "evidence"
(Heb. 11:1), of their own faith given to them by God.
Just as a true Christian can't be "reasoned" into a
disbelief in the Bible, so a non-Christian can't be
"reasoned" into a belief in it. In fact, if a person
doesn't believe the Bible just by reading it (as is
the case with a Christian, Rom. 10:17, Jn. 8:47),
then he or she wouldn't be persuaded by any other
evidence supporting the Bible, no matter how
remarkable (cf. Lk. 16:31).
Andrew said: Could the Creator's thoughts and
intentions have been badly misinterpreted and
distorted by man's imperfect and dark mind?
Oh, certainly, for they are misinterpreted all the
time by non-Christians who read the Bible; for
without God's Spirit guiding a person into a proper
understanding of it, the Bible appears to be full of
a lot of garbage (1 Cor. 2:14). The Bible cannot be
approached by man's own "wisdom" (1 Cor. 1:18-2:16,
3:18-20; Is. 55:6-11), for it wasn't penned by man's
own "wisdom"; it was penned by the inspiration of
the Holy Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:21;
2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Thes. 2:13).
What you refer to as "man's imperfect and dark mind"
would apply to non-Christians, whose minds have been
blinded by Satan (2 Cor. 4:4, Mk. 4:15, Lk. 8:12)
and by sin (Col. 1:21, Eph. 4:18-19). Christians are
set free from the power of Satan and of sin (Acts
26:18) and are given "the mind of Christ" (1 Cor.
2:16).
Andrew quoted Michael Horn: ...an embarrassingly
paltry, painfully childish claim
"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee,
O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou
hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and
hast revealed them unto babes" (Mt. 11:25).
"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive
the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no
wise enter therein" (Lk. 18:17).
Andrew quoted Michael: ...claim that would be
laughed out of any court, as well as any credible
institution of higher learning.
Witnesses who take their oaths while placing their
hands on the Holy Bible are laughed out of any
court? Since when? And who gets to decide if an
institution of "higher" learning is "credible"?
"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the
wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of
the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe?
Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God
made foolish the wisdom of this world?" (1 Cor.
1:19-20); "Let no man deceive himself. If any man
among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him
become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom
of this world is foolishness with God. For it is
written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the
wise, that they are vain" (1 Cor. 3:18-20).
"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye
upon him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake
his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and
let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy
upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly
pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For
as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my
ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than
your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the
snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but
watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and
bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread
to the eater; so shall my word be that goeth forth
out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it
shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it"
(Is. 55:6-11).
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever
committeth sin is the servant of sin" (Jn. 8:34);
"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make
you free" (Jn. 8:32); "That they may recover
themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are
taken captive by him at his will" (2 Tim. 2:26).
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
|
| Title: Re: 2 questions |
04 Jan 2007 04:20:40 AM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167902163.285032.130060@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
Andrew W said on Jan 3, 10:27 pm: Christians
believe that Jesus sacrificed himself (performed
a human blood sacrifice) to save us from our sins.
Yes; they believe that based on what Jesus said;
Correction: What was reported to have been said by Jesus by those who heard
him. All we have is accounts, passed on by people with imperfect memories.
No one walked around with pen and paper in those days so no accounts can be
relied upon for accuracy or meaning.
"This is my blood of the new testament, which is
shed for many for the remission of sins" (Mt. 26:28).
How do you know he wasn't referring only to the traitorous acts of the
people in the town?
We cannot just assume that it was a *blood sacrifice* for the sins of the
*whole world*.
Andrew said: Jesus himself taught a way that
specifically denies both the necessity and the
value of blood sacrifices.
Are you thinking of when Jesus said the following?
"Go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have
mercy, and not sacrifice, for I am not come to call
the righteous, but sinners to repentance"
(Mt. 9:13); "If ye had known what this meaneth, I
will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not
have condemned the guiltless" (Mt. 12:7).
Or, when Jesus agreed with a man who said the
following? "To love [God] with all the heart, and
with all the understanding, and with all the soul,
and with all the strength, and to love his
neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt
offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that
he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art
not far from the kingdom of God" (Mk. 12:33-34).
Or, when Jesus said the following? "He said,
Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and
offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst
pleasure therein (which are offered by the law);
then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He
taketh away the first, that he may establish the
second. By the which will we are sanctified through
the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for
all" (Heb. 10:5-10).
If you're thinking of verses other than these, post
them in this thread so we can see that they say. For
now, we can look at the ones quoted above.
In Mt. 9:13, 12:7, Jesus was quoting from "I
desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge
of God more than burnt offerings" (Hos. 6:6). This
meant that to God a legalistic person's sacrifices
were completely useless if he or she showed no mercy
to others, and had no real knowledge of God. In Mt.
9:13, Jesus quoted Hos. 6:6 to legalistic people who
were showing no mercy (Mt. 9:11), and in Mt. 12:7 He
quoted it to legalistic people who didn't realize
that Jesus was God (Mt. 12:6,8). Jesus didn't mean
that no people in His time should offer sacrifices,
I find your attempt at reading Jesus' mind unconvincing.
for He specifically commanded one person to do so in
Mt. 8:4.
I'm not convinced that Jesus commanded a sacrifice here.
Jesus nowhere says that sacrifices were
wrong in themselves, if they were done with a right
heart (cf. Mt. 5:23-24).
Mk. 12:33-34 is similar to the idea of Hos. 6:6,
i.e. if a legalistic person doesn't show love to
others or to God, then their sacrifices aren't
worth very much. But this didn't mean that no
people in Jesus' time should ever offer sacrifices.
Negative reasoning.
Heb. 10:5-10 explains what happened on the cross
when Jesus offered His own body as the single,
one-time sacrifice of the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28);
His sacrifice completely replaced all the Old
Covenant sacrifices for sin (Heb. 10:14-18).
It doesn't actually say that Jesus' body was to be used as a sacrifice.
Andrew said: Why did Jesus carry out an action
that he himself said has no value?
Where did Jesus say that His sacrifice had no value?
No sacrifices have any value.
Andrew said: What was the TRUE reason for Jesus
allowing himself to be crucified?
To serve as the propitiation for our sins (1 Jn.
4:10, Rom. 3:25).
Its far more logical and rational to conclude that it was to prove that
there's no such thing as death, and this he did.
Otherwise you cast God in heaven as a callous tyrant who demands ransoms,
and who can only resolve evil by demanding more evil (blood).
Andrew said: Why do most Christians believe so
strongly that the Bible is God's directly and
accurately inspired word?
All true faith comes not by a person deciding on his
or her own to believe, but by God Himself deciding
that that person will believe (Jn. 6:44, Acts
13:48),
No mention of a book here.
for faith is God's sovereign gift (Eph. 2:8,
Jn. 6:65). This is why true Christians can't ever be
"reasoned" out of their faith in the Bible: just as
their faith didn't come from "reason", so it can't
be extinguished by "reason". I put "reason" in
quotes to indicate the purported "reason" of
unbelievers, a "reason" which thinks that it can
prove the Bible isn't true, when in fact there's
no proof based on reason that the Bible isn't true;
There's none in your mind because its already made up.
there are only opinions that it isn't true.
There are only opinions that it is true as well.
The most
that can be said by reason is that there's no
objective proof that the Bible is true, and
Christians agree with that, for their proof isn't
objective, but the subjective proof, the "evidence"
(Heb. 11:1), of their own faith given to them by God.
Not all faith comes from God.
Just as a true Christian can't be "reasoned" into a
disbelief in the Bible, so a non-Christian can't be
"reasoned" into a belief in it. In fact, if a person
doesn't believe the Bible just by reading it (as is
the case with a Christian, Rom. 10:17, Jn. 8:47),
then he or she wouldn't be persuaded by any other
evidence supporting the Bible, no matter how
remarkable (cf. Lk. 16:31).
If it doesn't convince everyone, and if it is God's word, then God will lose
a lot of his children.
Unless the hell doctrine isn't true either. Then we will all eventually come
back to God.
Andrew said: Could the Creator's thoughts and
intentions have been badly misinterpreted and
distorted by man's imperfect and dark mind?
Oh, certainly, for they are misinterpreted all the
time by non-Christians who read the Bible;
Not just non-Christians.
for
without God's Spirit guiding a person into a proper
understanding of it, the Bible appears to be full of
a lot of garbage (1 Cor. 2:14). The Bible cannot be
approached by man's own "wisdom" (1 Cor. 1:18-2:16,
3:18-20; Is. 55:6-11),
Believers only believe that they've got it right.
for it wasn't penned by man's
own "wisdom"; it was penned by the inspiration of
the Holy Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:21;
2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Thes. 2:13).
Not all of it. There is no way of knowing which pieces of scripture that
verse was referring to.
What you refer to as "man's imperfect and dark mind"
would apply to non-Christians, whose minds have been
blinded by Satan (2 Cor. 4:4, Mk. 4:15, Lk. 8:12)
and by sin (Col. 1:21, Eph. 4:18-19).
What about all the televangelists and priests who were bad?
Christians have dark minds too.
Christians are
set free from the power of Satan and of sin (Acts
26:18) and are given "the mind of Christ" (1 Cor.
2:16).
Don't kid yourself.
Andrew quoted Michael Horn: ...an embarrassingly
paltry, painfully childish claim
"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee,
O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou
hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and
hast revealed them unto babes" (Mt. 11:25).
Don't pretend that you know what that's talking about.
--
Andrew W.
Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth.
How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to
life from one convenient book.
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.fipdata.org/index.html
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: 2 questions |
04 Jan 2007 08:36:07 AM |
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Andrew W said on Jan 4, 2:20 am [Re: What Jesus
said]: All we have is accounts, passed on by
people with imperfect memories
God made sure that the memories of those who heard
Jesus were perfect in regard to what He said: "The
Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he
shall teach you all things, and bring all things to
your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"
(Jn. 14:26).
Andrew said [Re: Mt. 26:28]: How do you know he
wasn't referring only to the traitorous acts of
the people in the town?
Do you mean those who got Him killed? If so, Jesus
knew that their traitorous acts against Him, and His
death for our sins, was all prophesied beforehand;
"Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that
are written by the prophets concerning the Son of
man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered
unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and
spitefully entreated, and spitted on; and they shall
scourge him, and put him to death; and the third day
he shall rise again" (Lk. 18:31-33); "And he said
unto them, These are the words which I spake unto
you, while I was yet with you, that all things must
be fulfilled, which were written in the law of
Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms,
concerning me. Then opened he their understanding,
that they might understand the scriptures; and said
unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved
Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the
third day, and that repentance and remission of sins
should be preached in his name among all nations,
beginning at Jerusalem" (Lk. 24:44-47).
Andrew said [Re: Mt. 26:28]: We cannot just assume
that it was a *blood sacrifice* for the sins of
the *whole world*.
We don't have to assume; that's what Jesus Himself
taught: "And he said unto them, This is my blood of
the new testament, which is shed for many"
(Mk. 14:24); "For God so loved the world, that he
gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
(Jn. 3:16).
Andrew said [Re: Mt. 8:4]: I'm not convinced that
Jesus commanded a sacrifice here.
He was referring to Lev. 14:2-32.
Andrew said [Re: Heb. 10:5-18, Mt. 26:28]: It
doesn't actually say that Jesus' body was to be
used as a sacrifice.
It does (Heb. 10:10, cf. Is. 53:5-12).
Andrew said: No sacrifices have any value.
Why do you say that? Even animal sacrifices had some
value under the Old Covenant (Lev. 17:11).
Andrew said [Re: Jesus' crucifixion]: it was to
prove that there's no such thing as death
How was it prove that when Jesus said He was to be
put to death? (Lk. 18:33). When did Jesus say
there's no such thing as death? (Jn. 8:24, 11:14,
Lk. 21:16, 24:46, Mt. 10:21, 15:4, Mk. 12:25).
Andrew said: you cast God in heaven as a callous
tyrant who demands ransoms
No, the scriptures cast God in heaven as a loving
Creator who paid our ransom with His own blood
(Acts 20:28, Mt. 20:28, Hos. 13:14).
Andrew said [Re: Jn. 6:44, Acts 13:48]: No mention
of a book here.
Believing in Jesus includes believing in His Word;
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples
indeed" (Jn. 8:31, cf. 14:21, 15:10).
Andrew said [Re: The Bible]: If it doesn't
convince everyone, and if it is God's word, then
God will lose a lot of his children.
Those the Bible doesn't convince aren't God's
children (Jn. 8:47), but are the children of Satan
destined for hellfire (Jn. 8:43-45, Mt. 13:38-42,
25:41).
Andrew said [Re: "man's imperfect and dark mind"
would apply to non-Christians]: What about all the
televangelists and priests who were bad?
Christians have dark minds too.
Because Christians still have free will, they can
allow dark thoughts to once again rule their minds
and lives if that's what they want to go back to
(2 Pet. 2:22, Jas. 1:14); but true Christians can
repent at any time and get back on the right track
(1 Jn. 1:9) and choose good thoughts over evil ones
(Rom. 12:21, Phil. 4:8), whereas non-Christians have
no possibility of repenting from sin withough
Christ's help; they are complete slaves to their sin
(Eph. 4:19, Jn. 8:34,32, Rom. 6:18-23).
Andrew said: Jesus said that we must search
everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is
the man who thinks he can get all the answers to
life from one convenient book.
Rather, it's foolish to think there's any life in
the Bible (or anywhere outside the Bible) apart
from the Person of Jesus Christ (Jn. 5:39-40, 14:6,
Acts 4:12).
On what basis, other than demonic influence, would
someone want to reject much of what the 66 different
books of the Bible have to say, yet want to accept
as valid what some other books have to say; what
would make someone think, other than demons, that
some other books teach a better gospel than the
gospel taught by the Bible itself? (Mt. 26:28;
1 Cor. 15:1-4, Gal. 1:4-9; 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Cor. 11:14).
*******
(Subsequent post)
Andrew W said on Jan 4, 2:50 am: there's no such
thing as death (spiritual).
Then what is the second death? (Rev. 2:11;
20:6,14,15; 21:7-8; cf. Mk. 9:43-48, Rev. 14:10).
Andrew said [Re: Free will]: That means we also
have the free will to edit, interpret and teach
the scriptures any way we like
No, we can't take any verses out of the Bible, or
add any verses into the Bible, and still claim that
it's the real Bible, without grave consequences to
ourselves (e.g. Rev. 22:18-19, Prov. 30:6,
Deut. 12:32); nor will any teachers of the Bible
avoid facing a stricter judgment by God (Jas. 3:1).
Andrew said [Re: A miracle]: Once one understands
how it works or exactly what happened it is no
longer a miracle.
Why not? What if one understands that how it works
is that God works it, and that exactly what happened
was that God made it happen? (Lk. 18:27).
Andrew said: A miracle is not a license for
concocting bs reasonings and scenarios.
Indeed not, just as it's not a license for denying
any possibility that God could have done it, by
saying "We just don't understand yet how it
happened".
Andrew said: Salvation is free.
Salvation is free for us (Rom. 5:15-21), but it
wasn't free for God (Acts 20:28, Mk. 10:45,
1 Cor. 6:20).
Andrew said: The true Creator wants us to be
happy and abundant.
Amen (Jn. 10:10), but even the true Creator won't
give peace to us if we want to continue in our sins
(Is. 57:19-21, Lk. 13:3, Jn. 3:19, Rom. 1:24-32,
Heb. 10:26-31); all we'll end up with in the short
life we have left is the false peace of a dead
conscience (Eph. 4:19; 1 Tim. 4:2, Tit. 1:16) and
the false, worldly abundance (Lk. 12:15, 14:33,
Mt. 6:19-21; 1 Tim. 6:7-12) which Satan gives to all
those who are serving him (Mt. 4:9), no matter
whether they know they're serving him or not
(1 Jn. 3:8-10, Mt. 7:21-23).
.
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: 2 questions |
04 Jan 2007 10:42:59 AM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167921366.987241.216880@i15g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Andrew W said on Jan 4, 2:20 am [Re: What Jesus
said]: All we have is accounts, passed on by
people with imperfect memories
God made sure that the memories of those who heard
Jesus were perfect in regard to what He said: "The
Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he
shall teach you all things, and bring all things to
your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"
(Jn. 14:26).
The foundation of all Christian religions are the Bibles
The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand. There are NO ORIGINALS in
existence. Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals??? What are
available are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable
veracity. The books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the
invention of the printing press. Even the so called originals were
supposedly written by 56 or more different authors of unknown veracity. They
are biased by, and dependent on the writings and opinions of the clergy. And
the status and survival of the clergy is totally dependent on their follower's
belief in their Bible stories. There are 18 different English versions
alone.
The bible is true because the Bible says it is true!
There is NO - NADA _evidence the Bibles are the word of any Gods. They are
no more than the words of hundreds of errant religious leaders motivated to
impress and control their flock.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence as to their authenticity and
veracity. The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables,
contradictions, human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding,
misogyny, destruction, barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not
accurate history and certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an
insane and totally untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
NONE of the Bibles were written during Jesus' 'CLAIMED LIFE TIME'. Time and
distance was required to allow the creation of fictional stories and the
embellishment of history.
There is also the matter of the Biblical canon itself. After all, ancient
Israel and the early church knew of many more religious books than the ones
that now constitute the Bible. For example, there were over 50 gospels in
circulation at the time New Testaments were chosen by church leaders, yet
only four made it into the New Testament. Who decided which of the books
would become part of the Christian scriptures, and again, "Why?" Who
decided, "This book belongs... this book doesn't..."? What were their
reasons? What were their motives? How do we know if ANY of them were
authentic? In addition there is evidence that the Bibles were altered by
church leaders to support their personal motives and ambitions.
The fact is, there are no clear records available which document the
church's process of determining which books were acceptable and which books
were unacceptable and why. The general consensus of opinion among scholars
is that the decision was based on whether or not the book agreed with the
prevailing theological thought and motives at the time. In other words, the
only books accepted were the ones that agreed with the opinions, desires and
motives of the church leadership at the time
It is interesting to note that NONE of the Bibles were written during Jesus'
claimed life time. It seems time needed to pass to permit the creation of
tales and the embellishment of history.
According to Bart Ehrman, professor and Chair of the Dept. of Religious
Studies at the University of North Carolina, The Bible is not the error-free
word of any god. There are some 5,700 ancient Greek manuscripts that are the
basis of the modern versions of the New Testament, and scholars have
uncovered more thousands of differences in those texts.
The last 12 verses of the Gospel of Mark appear to have been added to the
text many years later -- and these are the only verses in that book that
mention Christ reappearing after his death.
Another critical passage is in 1 John, which explicitly sets out the Holy
Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). It is a cornerstone of
Christian theology, and this is the only place where it appears in any of
the Bibles -- and it appears to have been added to the text centuries later,
by an unknown scribe.
For a man who originally believed the Bible was the inspired Word of God,
Ehrman sought the true originals to shore up his faith. The problem: he
found there are NO original manuscripts of ANY of the Bibles - Old or New
Testaments!
If the history of the resurrection of Christ had not really happened, the
message . . . according to the authority of the apostle Paul, had to be
'null and void'. Ehrman slowly came to a horrifying realization: There was
no real historical record. It was, he felt, no more than myths and fables,
told by illiterate men and not set down in writing for decades that
followed.
There is no solid agreement even within the Christian community on the
interpretation of the Bibles. There are 18 English versions alone. There are
thousands of variations and opinions as to the meaning of various Biblical
statements.
If Jesus was God, why did he not leave behind an authentic record of his
rules and commands? Why are there NO Biblical documents written during his
'claimed' time on earth? The Old Testaments were written 'before his birth'.
The New Testaments were written '60 and more years after his death' by men
that could never have known Jesus personally. NONE were written during his
'claimed' life time. Studies by Tony Busby indicate the new testaments were
really not compiled until the third century by the church leadership at the
time.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence as to their authenticity and
veracity. The Bibles contain both historical and scientific errors. They
contain manifest absurdities, unfulfilled prophesies, immoralities,
indecencies, obscenities, atrocities, barbarities, myths, folklore and
legends. They are nothing more than hearsay, myths, contradictions and
implausible tales.
Here is just a small sampling of implausible Bible stories.
The Fallacy of Miracles
Is Jesus divine because of his miracles, particularly that he raised the
dead? If so, then why is he singled out as special when others have done the
same long before? Moses parted the sea, changed a stick into a serpent, and
changed water into blood. Must he not have been divine? We have seen Elisha
and Elijah do the same sort of miracles as Jesus. Elisha raised the dead,
resurrected himself, healed a leper, fed a hundred people with twenty barley
loaves and a few ears of corn, and healed a blind man (2 Kings 4:35; 13:21;
5:14; 4:44; 6:11), while Elijah made an inexhaustible bowl of flour and an
inexhaustible jar of oil, and also raised the dead (1 Kings 17:14, 22). Why
are they not equal to Jesus, if such miracles denote divinity? Indeed,
someone in the Jewish scriptures far surpasses Jesus in raising up dead
bodies-Ezekiel raised "a great, an immense army", and all in one go (Ezekiel
37:1-10). In fact, the miracle of stopping the sun in its daily rotation
(Joshua 10:12-13) was a vastly greater miracle than just raising the dead.
The story of creation
A totally illogical Biblical story is the story of creation. It is obviously
pure fiction.
Genesis says that God created first the earth, then the Sun and Moon.
We know from astronomical data that our Sun and Moon is much older than the
earth. And all of these are older by eons than man. Only uneducated
egocentric humans could have written such nonsense.
Biblically, God created the world about six thousand years ago. 'Scientific
Evidence' indicates the Universe, as we now know it, began more than 13
BILLION years ago or more.
In the Bible, the Universe is a firmament and the Earth is a fixed (not to
mention flat) Planet and the Son, Moon and other planets revolve around the
earth. This was believed until modern scientific inquiry showed this was
totally false. We now KNOW the Earth revolves around the Son and the
Universe is over 20 BILLION light years in diameter and is made up of
trillions of Stars and Planets of which our planetary system is a very
miniscule and inconsequential part. There was no concept of a 'Universe' in
Biblical times.
Everything beyond our immediate Son and planets was considered Heaven.
In the Bible the earth is created in the first day, before the Son, Moon and
Stars. Objective scientific evidence is that the Earth did not form until
approximately 10 BILLION YEARS after the beginning of the present Universe
and after the formation of the Son, and many other stars.
The Creation of the World
Genesis
In the beginning of creation, when God made heaven and earth, the earth was
without form and void, with darkness over the face of the abyss, and a
mighty wind that swept over the surface of the waters. God said, Let there
be light, and there was light; and God saw that the light was good, and he
separated light from darkness. He called the light day, and the darkness
night. So evening came, and morning came, the first day. God created light
before he created the Sun and the Moon!
Astronomical evidence shows the Son existed long before the Earth; therefore
the earth was not created before the Son. It is equally obvious that the
writers of that time thought the World was the center the firmament and that
they had no conception of the size and nature of the Universe. Everything
beyond the Sun and Moon was considered to be gods Heaven
God said, Let there be a vault between the waters, to separate water from
water. So God made the vault, and separated the water under the vault from
the water above it, and so it was; and God called the vault heaven. Evening
came, and morning came, a second day.
God said; Let the waters under heaven be gathered into one place, so that
dry land may appear; and so it was. God called the dry land earth, and the
gathering of the waters he called seas; and God saw that it was good. Then
God said, Let the earth produce fresh growth, let there be on the earth
plants bearing seed, fruit-trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its kind. So it was; the earth yielded fresh growth, plants bearing seed
according to their kind and trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its king; and God saw that it was good. Evening came, and morning came, a
third day.
And this good and loving God created animals that eat other animals (and
man) and poisonous plants and snakes that kill!
God said, Let there be lights in the vault of heaven to separate day from
night, and let them serve as signs both for festivals and for seasons and
years. Let them also shine in the vault of heaven to give light on earth. So
it was; God made the two great lights, the greater to govern the day and the
lesser to govern the night; and with them he made the stars. God put these
lights in the vault of heaven to give light on earth, to govern day and
night, and to separate light from darkness; and God saw that it was good.
Evening came, and morning came, a fourth day.
Ancient man erroneously thought the stars beyond the Sun and Moon to be
Heaven. The Moon was NOT considered a reflection from the light of the Sun
but a lesser light.
God, said, Let the waters teem with countless living creatures, and let
birds fly above the earth across the vault of heaven. God then created the
great sea-monsters and all living creatures that move and swarm in the
waters, according to their kind, and every kind of bird; and God saw that it
was good. So he blessed them and said, be fruitful and increase, fill the
waters of the seas; and let the birds increase on land. Evening came, and
morning came, a fifth day.
And this all loving God created creatures of that kill and eat other
creatures including man.
Archaeological evidence shows that animals evolved from primitive cells over
a period of about four billion years - not in one day!
God said, let the earth bring forth living creatures, according to their
kind: cattle, reptiles, and wild animals, all according to their kind. So it
was; God made wild animals, cattle, and all reptiles, each according to its
kind; and he saw that it was good. Then God said, Let us make man it our
image and likeness to rule the fish in the sea , the birds of heaven, the
cattle, all wild animals on earth, and all reptiles that crawl upon the
earth. So God created man in his own image; in the image of God he created
him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, be
fruitful and increase, fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish in
the sea, the birds of heaven, and every living thing that moves upon the
earth. God also said, I give you all plants that bear seed everywhere on
earth, and every tree bearing fruit which yields seed: they shall be yours
for food. All green plants I give for food to the wild animals, to all the
birds of heaven, and to all reptiles on earth, every living creature. So it
was; and God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Evening came,
and morning came, a sixth day.
And God created animals that need to kill and eat other animals including
man in order to survive. This is a loving and caring God?
Thus heaven and earth were completed with all their mighty throng. On the
sixth day God completed all the work he had been doing, and on the seventh
day he ceased from all his work. God blessed the seventh day and made it
holy, because on that day he ceased from all the work he had set himself to
do and rested.
Why would a God that is not physical but spiritual, get tired and need rest?
If this creator is such a loving and caring guy, why does he permit totally
innocent children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a
fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.?
Why are some born idiots and others with super intelligence?
Why does this loving and caring god create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions that effect people indiscriminately regardless of
their conduct or religious beliefs? Why does he permit millions of both
young and old to starve to death?
These afflict humans indiscriminately - young and old, atheists and members
of all religious beliefs.
Why did he design humans to suffer the decrepitude and malignancies of old
age? Even those that devote their lives to religious leadership suffer these
punishments of old age.
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals that need to eat other
animals to survive?
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. The objective evidence is that, if there is a
god creator, he has no concern about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
Adam and Eve
In the Bible, there are two different accounts of Adam and Eve's creation.
According to the Priestly (P) history of the 5th or 6th century BC (Genesis
1:1-2:4), God on the sixth day of Creation created all the living creatures
and, "in his own image," man both "male and female." God then blessed the
couple, told them to be "fruitful and multiply," and gave them dominion over
all other living things.
According to the lengthier Yahwist (J) narrative of the 10th century BC
(Genesis 2:5-7, 2:15-4:1, 4:25), God, or Yahweh, created Adam at a time when
the earth was still void, forming him from the earth's dust and breathing
"into his nostrils the breath of life." God then gave Adam the primeval
Garden of Eden to tend but, on penalty of death, commanded him not to eat of
the fruit of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil." Subsequently, so that
Adam would not be alone, God created other animals but, finding these
insufficient, put Adam to sleep, took from him a rib, and created a new
companion, Eve. The two were persons of innocence until Eve yielded to the
temptations of the evil serpent and Adam joined her in eating the forbidden
fruit, whereupon they both recognized their nakedness and donned fig leaves
as garments. Immediately, God recognized their transgression and proclaimed
their punishments-for the woman, pain in childbirth and subordination to
man, and, for the man, relegation to an accursed ground with which he must
toil and sweat for his subsistence. Adam died at the age of 930!
In later Christian theology, the concept of original sin (q.v.) took hold-a
sin in which human kind has been held captive since the fall of Adam and
Eve. The doctrine was based on Pauline Scripture but has not been accepted
by a number of Christian sects and interpreters. Why should BILLIONS of
innocent people be punished over thousands of years for this original sin
that they had no part in?
This is both sadistic and ridiculous!
Jonah
As the story is related in the Book of Jonah, the prophet Jonah is called by
God to go to Nineveh (a great Assyrian city) and prophesy disaster because
of the city's wickedness. Jonah, in the story, feels about Nineveh as does
the author of the Book of Nahum-that the city must inevitably be destroyed
because of God's judgment against it. Thus Jonah does not want to prophesy,
because Nineveh might repent and thereby be saved. So he rushes down to
Joppa and takes passage in a ship that will carry him in the opposite
direction, thinking to escape God.
A storm of unprecedented severity strikes the ship, and it shows signs of
breaking up and foundering. Jonah confesses that it is his presence on board
that is causing the storm. At his request, he is thrown overboard, and the
storm subsides.
A "great fish," appointed by God, swallows Jonah, and he stays within the
fish's maw for three days and nights. He prays for deliverance and is
"vomited out" on dry land (ch. 2).
Totally implausible. He would have been digested by the fish in those three
days!
Sodom and Gomorrah
According to the Bible these cities and everyone in them, except Lot and his
family, were destroyed by fire and brimstone for their sinfulness. Lot's
wife was turned into a pillar of salt for disobeying God's command to not
look back at her city of birth being destroyed.
There is no way that EVERYONE in two cities could be so sinful, especially
innocent children, to deserve destruction by fire and brimstone.
Sodom and Gomorrah constituted, along with the cities of Admah, Zeboiim, and
Zoar (Bela), the five biblical "cities of the plain." Destroyed by"brimstone
and fire" because of their wickedness (Genesis 19:24).
Sodom and Gomorrah probably were devastated about 1900 BC by an earthquake
in the Dead Sea area of the Great Rift Valley, an extensive rift extending
from the Jordan River valley in Israel to the Zambezi River system in East
Africa. When the catastrophic destruction occurred, the petroleum and gases
existing in the area probably contributed to the imagery of "brimstone and
fire"
Cruel, inhumane and pure nonsense!
The Tower of Babel
Genesis 11.1 - 11.9
God became concerned that the Tower being built would reach his heaven.
He confounded the builders by giving them different languages so they could
no longer communicate with each other to continue the construction.
Why would this be of any concern to an all powerful God creator and wouldn't
this God creator realize that no tower could possibly reach his spiritual
heaven?
Noah and the Ark
The Bible is claimed to be the inerrant word of God
The story of Noah and the flood is only one of many ridiculous biblical
tales with no authentication or plausibility of any kind. It is an
impossible story.
1. The largest boat ever built to this day could not even come CLOSE to
housing Noah, his sons, wives and two of every type of animal on earth.
2. How were the 1.7 MILLION species collected in a boat and
cared for by a few people. How did he manage to get them all back to Asia,
Africa, Australia, North America, South America, the Arctic and Antarctic?
3. And this was a boat built of wood many thousands of years ago. There
are 1.7 million KNOWN species of animals on this planet. This story is
patently impossible, using only materials and tools available to Noah, to
build an arch large enough to hold all these creatures, together with
suitable environments for each of them to live in, keeping them all
separated so they don't kill and eat each other. And then provide room and
an environment for many hundreds of millions of known species of insects,
plants, molds etc. on this planet?
4. Where did they house all of the new born during this ten month
escapade?
5. In addition, the ship would have to carry a TEN MONTHS supply of food
and fresh water for the people and thousands of animals for them to survive.
What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone
extinct. How did they dispose of the thousands of tons of feces? It must
have been one stinking ship!
6. Now according to the Bible the earth was flooded for ten months. This
would kill off all the vegetation. What did the animals eat for an
additional year or more after the flood subsided?
7. Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove
returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out
again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive
the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't
germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11.
8. And according to this myth, Noah was also over 600 years old!
This is a grossly implausible tale that ranks as a greater tale than Santa
Claus, The Wizard of Oz, The Easter Bunny and The Tooth Fairy!
Genesis 6:6
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was
filled with pain.
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face
of the earth: men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and
birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."
9 Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he
walked with God.
Genesis 7
1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family,
because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven
[a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every
kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind
of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the
earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days
and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living
creature I have made."
6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7
And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of
birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female,
came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after
the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.
This is patently ridiculous and impossible. How could they capture and load
over three million animals in a period of seven days???
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the
second month-on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and
the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth
forty days and forty nights.
13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with
his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with
them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to
their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its
kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs
of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and
entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every
living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.
17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters
increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and
increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the
water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under
the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the
mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [, 21 Every living thing that
moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the
creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry
land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing
on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures
that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the
earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.
This of course would have also killed all the vegetation on Earth!
Genesis 7:6 (New International Version)
6 Noah was "six hundred" years old when the floodwaters came on the earth.
7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood
Genesis 8
1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that
were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters
receded.
3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and
fifty days the water had gone down,
4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on
the mountains of Ararat.
5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day
of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible
And what did they eat until all the vegetation recovered from the flood???
Genesis 9 God's Covenant with Noah
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and
increase in number and fill the earth.
2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and
all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground,
and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands.
3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you
the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand
an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an
accounting for the life of his fellow man.
Before man learned how to create a fire, he had no choice but to eat raw
meat!
Samson
Hebrew Shimshon, Israelite hero portrayed in an epic narrative in the Old
Testament (Judg. 13-16). He was a Nazirite (q.v.) and a legendary warrior
whose incredible exploits hint at the weight of Philistine pressure on
Israel during much of the early, tribal period of Israel in Canaan
(1200-1000).
Samson was claimed to possess extraordinary physical strength, and the moral
of his saga relates the disastrous loss of his power to the violation of his
Nazirite vow. Credited with remarkable exploits-e.g., the slaying of a lion
and moving the gates of Gaza-he first broke his religious promises by
feasting with a woman from the neighboring town of Timnah, who was also a
Philistine, one of Israel's mortal enemies. Other remarkable deeds follow;
e.g., his decimating the Philistines in a private war. On another occasion
he repulsed their assault on him at Gaza, where he had gone to visit a
harlot. He finally fell victim to his foes through love of Delilah, a woman
of the valley of Sorek, who beguiled him into revealing the secret of his
strength: his long Nazirite hair. As he slept, Delilah had his hair cut and
betrayed him. He was captured, blinded, and enslaved by the Philistines, but
in the end he was granted his revenge; through the return of his old
strength, he supposedly demolished the great Philistine temple of the god
Dagon, at Gaza, destroying his captors and himself (Judg.16:4-30).
A truly implausible tale!
God created a three level Universe - Heaven above, a flat World resting on
water. Genesis 1:6-10; 7:11; 8:2; 11:11-9; 19:24; 28:12-13; Exodus 20:4;
Numbers 16:30-33; Deuteronomy 33:17.
God created the Sun and the Moon on the fourth day but created light on the
first day! Genesis1:1-9; 14-19
It is claimed that the Eve, first woman, was created from one of Adam's
ribs.
Genesis 3:1-5 Men and women have the same number of ribs on each side of
their body? And in any case why would a god that has created the Universe
and everything in it need to tale rib from Adam to create Eve???
The Bibles claim that a talking snake talked Eve into eating the forbidden
fruit.
The Bibles claim that Adam lived 930 years, Seth 912 years, Enosh 905 years,
Kenan910 years, Mahalael 895 years, Jared 962 years, Methuselah 969 years;
Lamech 777 years, and Noah 950 years. Genesis 5:-31; 9:29
God commanded that every baby boy at age of eight days be circumcised.
At that time sterilization (of knives) was unknown and many died of
infection for which they new no cure. Why did this almighty and all caring
God create baby boys with foreskins on their penis that he then required to
be painfully and dangerously removed?
This all caring and loving God sent ten horrible plagues upon the Egyptians
Exodus 7:14-12:32 and in his loving generosity gave Israel the land of the
Canaanites and the Israelites slaughtered every person of seven nations.
Twenty one million, men women and innocent children, were slaughtered
according to the Bible. Exodus 12:1-2
This is a loving god???
According to the verse, Jesus was being tempted by Satan, for forty
days. Assuming that Jesus is God, we are required to believe that God
was tempted by Satan, who was created by God in the first place.
[NIV, Mark 1:12-13]
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all
the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give
you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to
him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your
God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10] If Jesus is God,
would the Devil promise him that he will give him the kingdoms of the
world when all the all kingdoms of the world were created by and already
belong to God??
======================================================
God in the Bibles classifies bats as birds when anyone with an elementary
knowledge of biology knows that bats are flying MAMMALS!
Letiviticus11:13, 19
This God can't control his temper resulting in killing thousands of people.
Numbers 11:31-35; 25:1-9
He and Moses ordered the Israelites to kill all the male and Female
Medianites who had ever had sex but to spare the young women who were
virgins and keep them for themselves to enjoy. Numbers 31:14-1
Jeremiah:16:1: The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying,
2: Thou shall not take thee a wife, neither shall thou have sons or
daughters in this place.
3: For thus saith the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters
that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them,
and concerning their fathers that begat them in this land;
4: They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither
shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth:
and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses
shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.
5: For thus saith the LORD, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go
to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people,
saith the LORD, even loving kindness and mercies.
======================================================
According to the unerring Bible, the earth is the oldest object in the
Universe. (Genesis 1:1), snakes can talk (Genesis 3:1-5), and Man had
dominion over the dinosaurs (Genesis 1:26, 28)."
Really??? The Earth did not come into existence until 10 BILLION years after
the Universe. Man came into existence MILLIONS of years AFTER the extinction
of the Dinosaurs.
======================================================
God is satisfied with his works
[Gen 1:31]
God is dissatisfied with his works.
[Gen 6:6]
God dwells in chosen temples
[2 Chron 7:12,16]
God dwells not in temples
[Acts 7:48]
======================================================
Jesus' claimed last words on the cross, 'My God, my God, why hast thou
forsaken me?' Hardly seems like the words of a god that created and
controlled the whole world and who planned his entry and exit on earth.
More obvious nonsense!
======================================================
Additional Bible nonsense too voluminous to quote fully;
Mt.4:8: Gen. 1:6; Deut. 30.4; Job. 9:6,22:13, 26:11; PSA 75.3, 103.12;
1 Sam 2.8; Isa. 13.5, 40.21-22; Dan 4.10-11; Re. 7.1, 20.8; Psa 93:1, 96:10,
105.5Job. 22.14; Rev. 6.14; Acts 10:11; Rev. 6:13, 8:14; Mat. 2:9; Gen 1:16;
Lev.19.27, 11.7,10-12: Mat. 5:17-19; Luke 16:17; Lev. 19.19; Luke 16:1-9;
Amos 3:6; Isa. 45:7; Lev, 18.22, 20.13; Deut. 13.6; Judges 14.20; 1 Sam
16:21-23, 18.1-3; Sam 1:26, 13:3, 15:37, 16:16-17: Mat. 2:13-15; Luke 2:1-7,
21; Gen. 11.6, 18:21, 27:33; Exod. 9:14, 12:12; Num 33.4; Deut. 3.23; Exod.
18:11; Eccl. 9.5-6, 9:10; Job 7.9-10, 13:28, 14:1-2, 14:1-2, 10-12, 21; Prov
2:18-19; Eccl. 10:17, 17:27, 28, 30, 19.3, 44:9; wisdom 2:1-5
This is just a sampling of ridiculous Bible tales. The Bibles are obviously
a mixture of fiction, fables, folklore and pure nonsense.
And these Bibles were dictated by God??? Then this God must be a demented
idiot.
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end
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: 2 questions |
06 Jan 2007 09:04:49 AM |
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(Continued from prior post)
Bill M said on Jan 4, 8:42 am PST [Re: The
Tower of Babel]: God became concerned that the
Tower being built would reach his heaven.
Where does it say that? Could God have confused
mankind's languages to keep mankind from getting
together and doing things that would eventually
destroy mankind and the planet?
Bill said [Re: Noah's Ark]: There are 1.7 million
KNOWN species of animals
How many of those are microorganisms and insects?
Bill said [Re: Carnivores on the ark]: Whatever
prey they ate would have gone extinct.
Could Noah have kept some extra animals or dried
meat to be their food?
Bill said: How did they dispose of the thousands
of tons of feces?
Out the window?
Bill said: What did the animals eat for an
additional year or more after the flood subsided?
Plants that had resprouted on the land during the
5 months that land was exposed before the ark was
opened? (Gen. 8:5,14-17).
Bill said [Re: Gen. 8:11]: if any seeds happened
to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and
grow leaves within a seven day period
Hadn't land been exposed for 47 days? (Gen. 8:5-11).
Bill said: Noah was also over 600 years old
Could his DNA have had a different gene than ours
which caused his telomeres not to shorten as quickly
as ours?
Bill said [Re: Gen. 2:22]: Men and women have the
same number of ribs on each side of their body
Wouldn't only Adam have been missing one?
Bill said: why would a god that has created the
Universe and everything in it need to take a rib
from Adam to create Eve?
Does it say God "needed" to?
Bill said: The Bibles claim that a talking snake
talked Eve into eating the forbidden fruit.
Could the serpent have been Satan? "That old
serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which
deceiveth the whole world" (Rev. 12:9).
Bill said [Re: Circumcision]: At that time
sterilization (of knives) was unknown
Who says?
Bill said: Why did this almighty and all caring
God create baby boys with foreskins on their penis
that he then required to be painfully and
dangerously removed?
Did God create man with a foreskin, or was it
something that developed later due to mankind's
fall into sin?
Bill said: This all caring and loving God sent ten
horrible plagues upon the Egyptians
Were they without sin?
Bill said [Re: Israel killing nations in Canaan];
Twenty one million, men women and innocent
children, were slaughtered according to the Bible.
Where does it say "21 million", and where does it
say "innocent" children?
Bill said [Re: Mt. 4:1]: Assuming that Jesus is
God, we are required to believe that God was
tempted by Satan
Jesus is not only God, but wholly man; "For verily
he took not on him the nature of angels, but he
took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all
things it behoved him to be made like unto his
brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful
high priest in things pertaining to God, to make
reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in
that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is
able to succour them that are tempted"
(Heb. 2:16-18).
Bill said [Re: Mt. 4:9]: If Jesus is God, would
the Devil promise him that he will give him the
kingdoms of the world when all the all kingdoms
of the world were created by and already belong
to God?
God gave them to Satan (Lk. 4:6).
Bill said: God in the Bibles classifies bats as
birds
The Hebrew word translated as "bird" isn't defined
as taxonomists define the English word "bird"; the
Hebrew word simply refers to animals that fly.
Bill said: According to the unerring Bible, the
earth is the oldest object in the Universe...
It doesn't say that.
Bill said: ...and Man had dominion over the
dinosaurs
It doesn't say that. Could the dinosaurs have been
before the earth became "void" (Gen. 1:2), perhaps
due to some cataclysm?
Bill said [Re: Gen. 6:6]: God is dissatisfied with
his works.
Not with His works (Gen. 1:31), but with what man
had become through man's own sin; "And GOD saw that
the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and
that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5).
Bill said [Re: 2 Chr. 7:12,16]: God dwells in
chosen temples
God's "name" was in Solomon's temple.
Bill said [Re: Acts 7:48]: God dwells not in
temples
...."made with hands" (Acts 7:48-49).
Bill said [Re: Mk. 15:34, "My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?"]: Hardly seems like the
words of a god
What about a God who'd become wholly man, a man
who knew no sin who'd become sin? (2 Cor. 5:21).
Bill said: these Bibles were dictated by God?
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God"
(2 Tim. 3:16).
Bill said: Then this God must be a demented idiot.
Or not.
"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye
upon him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake
his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and
let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy
upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly
pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For
as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my
ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than
your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the
snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but
watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and
bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread
to the eater; so shall my word be that goeth forth
out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it
shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it"
(Is. 55:6-11).
*******
(Subsequent poster)
Andrew W said on Jan 4, 12:09 pm: *Loving*
Creators do not charge ransoms, and do not accept
blood as currency.
Can the Creator be both *Loving* and *Just*? And
can He accept His own blood as currency?
"Feed the church of God, which he hath purchased
with his own blood" (Acts 20:28).
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: 2 questions |
06 Jan 2007 09:06:08 PM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1168095889.482662.17800@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
(Continued from prior post)
Bill M said on Jan 4, 8:42 am PST [Re: The
Tower of Babel]: God became concerned that the
Tower being built would reach his heaven.
Where does it say that? Could God have confused
mankind's languages to keep mankind from getting
together and doing things that would eventually
destroy mankind and the planet?
Yeah like one building is going to threaten the safety of the planet. Why
isn't he stopping any buildings today from going up?
The Bible god just hates seeing humans cooperating with each other and doing
something creative.
Bill said [Re: Noah's Ark]: There are 1.7 million
KNOWN species of animals
How many of those are microorganisms and insects?
Microorganisms and insects are not animals.
Bill said [Re: Carnivores on the ark]: Whatever
prey they ate would have gone extinct.
Exactly.
Could Noah have kept some extra animals or dried
meat to be their food?
Carnivores eat a lot every day.
It would have only lasted a few days.
Bill said: How did they dispose of the thousands
of tons of feces?
Out the window?
Creative guesses it seems is all you have to these questions.
Bill said: What did the animals eat for an
additional year or more after the flood subsided?
Plants that had resprouted on the land during the
5 months that land was exposed before the ark was
opened? (Gen. 8:5,14-17).
How about the carnivores?
Bill said [Re: Gen. 8:11]: if any seeds happened
to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and
grow leaves within a seven day period
Hadn't land been exposed for 47 days? (Gen. 8:5-11).
Bill said: Noah was also over 600 years old
Could his DNA have had a different gene than ours
which caused his telomeres not to shorten as quickly
as ours?
We're not interested in pure speculation.
Bill said [Re: Gen. 2:22]: Men and women have the
same number of ribs on each side of their body
Wouldn't only Adam have been missing one?
Taking of genetic material from rib is reference to cloning.
Eve was part clone.
Bill said: why would a god that has created the
Universe and everything in it need to take a rib
from Adam to create Eve?
Does it say God "needed" to?
God only knew how to create one human.
Bill said: The Bibles claim that a talking snake
talked Eve into eating the forbidden fruit.
Could the serpent have been Satan? "That old
serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which
deceiveth the whole world" (Rev. 12:9).
What was satan doing in the pristine paradise?
Bill said [Re: Circumcision]: At that time
sterilization (of knives) was unknown
Who says?
Someone needs to study early medicine.
Bill said: This all caring and loving God sent ten
horrible plagues upon the Egyptians
Were they without sin?
Did it help? No.
Bill said [Re: Israel killing nations in Canaan];
Twenty one million, men women and innocent
children, were slaughtered according to the Bible.
Where does it say "21 million", and where does it
say "innocent" children?
Prove that the children were all evil.
Bill said [Re: Mt. 4:9]: If Jesus is God, would
the Devil promise him that he will give him the
kingdoms of the world when all the all kingdoms
of the world were created by and already belong
to God?
God gave them to Satan (Lk. 4:6).
Don't be ridiculous.
Bill said: According to the unerring Bible, the
earth is the oldest object in the Universe...
It doesn't say that.
Genesis says that the sun, moon and stars were created after.
Bill said [Re: Gen. 6:6]: God is dissatisfied with
his works.
Not with His works (Gen. 1:31), but with what man
had become through man's own sin; "And GOD saw that
the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and
that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5).
All things come from God. Evil could have had no other source.
Bill said: these Bibles were dictated by God?
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God"
(2 Tim. 3:16).
Any priest could have written that.
*******
(Subsequent poster)
Andrew W said on Jan 4, 12:09 pm: *Loving*
Creators do not charge ransoms, and do not accept
blood as currency.
Can the Creator be both *Loving* and *Just*? And
can He accept His own blood as currency?
*Loving* Creators do not charge ransoms, and do not accept
blood as currency.
"Feed the church of God, which he hath purchased
with his own blood" (Acts 20:28).
Pious poetry.
--
Andrew W.
Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth.
How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to
life from one convenient book.
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.fipdata.org/index.html
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: 2 questions |
04 Jan 2007 02:09:15 PM |
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"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167921366.987241.216880@i15g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Andrew W said on Jan 4, 2:20 am [Re: What Jesus
said]: All we have is accounts, passed on by
people with imperfect memories
God made sure that the memories of those who heard
Jesus were perfect in regard to what He said: "The
Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he
shall teach you all things, and bring all things to
your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"
(Jn. 14:26).
Its fairly obvious that this verse is only referring to the first level ear
witnesses. Teaching and bringing to remembrance all things to one group does
not ensure and guarantee that all things are learned and understood by all
self appointed teachers in the future.
You are reading more into a verse than is actually there.
Pretty much all you can do is that, plus launch a barrage of special
pleading.
Hopefully things will start looking up for you soon.
Andrew said [Re: Mt. 26:28]: How do you know he
wasn't referring only to the traitorous acts of
the people in the town?
Do you mean those who got Him killed? If so, Jesus
knew that their traitorous acts against Him, and His
death for our sins, was all prophesied beforehand;
"Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that
are written by the prophets concerning the Son of
man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered
unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and
spitefully entreated, and spitted on; and they shall
scourge him, and put him to death; and the third day
he shall rise again" (Lk. 18:31-33); "And he said
unto them, These are the words which I spake unto
you, while I was yet with you, that all things must
be fulfilled, which were written in the law of
Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms,
concerning me. Then opened he their understanding,
that they might understand the scriptures; and said
unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved
Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the
third day, and that repentance and remission of sins
should be preached in his name among all nations,
beginning at Jerusalem" (Lk. 24:44-47).
Andrew said [Re: Mt. 26:28]: We cannot just assume
that it was a *blood sacrifice* for the sins of
the *whole world*.
We don't have to assume; that's what Jesus Himself
taught: "And he said unto them, This is my blood of
the new testament, which is shed for many"
(Mk. 14:24); "For God so loved the world, that he
gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
(Jn. 3:16).
<yawn>
Andrew said [Re: Mt. 8:4]: I'm not convinced that
Jesus commanded a sacrifice here.
He was referring to Lev. 14:2-32.
Andrew said [Re: Heb. 10:5-18, Mt. 26:28]: It
doesn't actually say that Jesus' body was to be
used as a sacrifice.
It does (Heb. 10:10, cf. Is. 53:5-12).
No it doesn't.
Andrew said: No sacrifices have any value.
Why do you say that? Even animal sacrifices had some
value under the Old Covenant (Lev. 17:11).
Sacrifices had no value at any time.
Jesus' teaching is non backward negotiable.
Andrew said [Re: Jesus' crucifixion]: it was to
prove that there's no such thing as death
How was it prove that when Jesus said He was to be
put to death? (Lk. 18:33). When did Jesus say
there's no such thing as death? (Jn. 8:24, 11:14,
Lk. 21:16, 24:46, Mt. 10:21, 15:4, Mk. 12:25).
The resurrection said it for him.
Andrew said: you cast God in heaven as a callous
tyrant who demands ransoms
No, the scriptures cast God in heaven as a loving
Creator who paid our ransom with His own blood
(Acts 20:28, Mt. 20:28, Hos. 13:14).
*Loving* Creators do not charge ransoms, and do not accept blood as
currency.
The *Bible god*, (which is who we're talking about) occasionally refers to
itself as 'our God in heaven', but at the end of the day the 'Bible god' is
just a two dimensional story book character who makes a lot of empty claims
and slaughters a lot of people.
Andrew said [Re: Jn. 6:44, Acts 13:48]: No mention
of a book here.
Believing in Jesus includes believing in His Word;
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples
indeed" (Jn. 8:31, cf. 14:21, 15:10).
Andrew said [Re: The Bible]: If it doesn't
convince everyone, and if it is God's word, then
God will lose a lot of his children.
Those the Bible doesn't convince aren't God's
children (Jn. 8:47), but are the children of Satan
destined for hellfire (Jn. 8:43-45, Mt. 13:38-42,
25:41).
This is the most insidious bs of all.
Andrew said [Re: "man's imperfect and dark mind"
would apply to non-Christians]: What about all the
televangelists and priests who were bad?
Christians have dark minds too.
Because Christians still have free will, they can
allow dark thoughts to once again rule their minds
and lives if that's what they want to go back to
(2 Pet. 2:22, Jas. 1:14); but true Christians can
repent at any time and get back on the right track
(1 Jn. 1:9) and choose good thoughts over evil ones
(Rom. 12:21, Phil. 4:8), whereas non-Christians have
no possibility of repenting from sin withough
Christ's help; they are complete slaves to their sin
(Eph. 4:19, Jn. 8:34,32, Rom. 6:18-23).
It seems that all you have to bolster your case are just verses from the
same accounts that are mostly out of context and highly open to
interpretation.
That plus special pleading shows that you are having to resort to desperate
measures because you know that you really don't have a leg to stand on.
Christianity is a religion with legs, but sadly with no leg to stand on.
---
Andrew said: Jesus said that we must search
everywhere for the truth. How naive and foolish is
the man who thinks he can get all the answers to
life from one convenient book.
Rather, it's foolish to think there's any life in
the Bible (or anywhere outside the Bible) apart
from the Person of Jesus Christ (Jn. 5:39-40, 14:6,
Acts 4:12).
<more yawning happening>
On what basis, other than demonic influence, would
someone want to reject much of what the 66 different
books of the Bible have to say, yet want to accept
as valid what some other books have to say; what
would make someone think, other than demons, that
some other books teach a better gospel than the
gospel taught by the Bible itself? (Mt. 26:28;
1 Cor. 15:1-4, Gal. 1:4-9; 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Cor. 11:14).
*******
(Subsequent post)
Andrew W said on Jan 4, 2:50 am: there's no such
thing as death (spiritual).
Then what is the second death? (Rev. 2:11;
20:6,14,15; 21:7-8; cf. Mk. 9:43-48, Rev. 14:10).
Yeah, what is 'second death' exactly? No one can say for sure.
Andrew said [Re: Free will]: That means we also
have the free will to edit, interpret and teach
the scriptures any way we like
No, we can't take any verses out of the Bible, or
add any verses into the Bible, and still claim that
it's the real Bible, without grave consequences to
ourselves (e.g. Rev. 22:18-19, Prov. 30:6,
Deut. 12:32); nor will any teachers of the Bible
avoid facing a stricter judgment by God (Jas. 3:1).
God has ever threatened to judge anyone on this matter.
Andrew said [Re: A miracle]: Once one understands
how it works or exactly what happened it is no
longer a miracle.
Why not? What if one understands that how it works
is that God works it, and that exactly what happened
was that God made it happen? (Lk. 18:27).
That is just another version of the famous Christian rationalisation "God
works in mysterious ways, and "all things are possible with God", and every
bit as vacuous.
Andrew said: A miracle is not a license for
concocting bs reasonings and scenarios.
Indeed not, just as it's not a license for denying
any possibility that God could have done it, by
saying "We just don't understand yet how it
happened".
More of the same kind of rationalisation.
Andrew said: Salvation is free.
Salvation is free for us (Rom. 5:15-21), but it
wasn't free for God (Acts 20:28, Mk. 10:45,
1 Cor. 6:20).
Blind assertion about Creator's imagined monetary concerns.
Now you believe that you're God's treasurer.
Andrew said: The true Creator wants us to be
happy and abundant.
Amen (Jn. 10:10), but even the true Creator won't
give peace to us if we want to continue in our sins
(Is. 57:19-21, Lk. 13:3, Jn. 3:19, Rom. 1:24-32,
Heb. 10:26-31); all we'll end up with in the short
life we have left is the false peace of a dead
conscience (Eph. 4:19; 1 Tim. 4:2, Tit. 1:16) and
the false, worldly abundance (Lk. 12:15, 14:33,
Mt. 6:19-21; 1 Tim. 6:7-12) which Satan gives to all
those who are serving him (Mt. 4:9), no matter
whether they know they're serving him or not
(1 Jn. 3:8-10, Mt. 7:21-23).
More out of context verses.
Give it a rest.
--
Andrew W.
Jesus said that we must search everywhere for the truth.
How naive and foolish is the man who thinks he can get all the answers to
life from one convenient book.
What we are told God and Jesus said, they did not say.
http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/Mission.htm
TABLE OF CONTENTS. Must read!
http://www.divinelove.org/revnt/Rev-TOC-title.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.fipdata.org/index.html
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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