| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
| Date: |
06 Feb 2004 12:22:43 PM |
| Object: |
Re: a problem with consistency - 41 |
"Jude" <Jude@cantstandspam.> wrote in message
news:RZIAb.4385$rG.1868@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Genesis, Chapter 5
"24": And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
To which "heaven" ? We don't know
2 Kings, Chapter 2
"11": And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that,
behold,
there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both
asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Which heaven ? We don't know
John, Chapter 3
"13": And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Two things, One; as you know, by now, Which heaven ? And now we have a TIME
FRAME !
2 Corinthians, Chapter 12
"2": I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the
body,
I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
such
an one caught up to the third heaven. "3": And I knew such a man, (whether
in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
As the Jesus event had passed, he could have went all the way to the
seventh, and there wouldn't be an inconsistency
Hebrews, Chapter 11
"5": By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was
not
found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had
this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch was translated (in modern terms "transported") to WHERE ?
The 'problem' with your 'insistency' here, is that it doesn't exist
--
!!! I BELIEVE in God. The bible is a valuable book but is NOT inerrant !!!
Agreed
.
|
|
| User: "Jude" |
|
| Title: Re: a problem with consistency - 41 |
07 Feb 2004 08:25:29 AM |
|
|
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:1027mr6pspogr42@corp.supernews.com...
"Jude" <Jude@cantstandspam.> wrote in message
news:RZIAb.4385$rG.1868@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Genesis, Chapter 5
"24": And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
To which "heaven" ? We don't know
Well, I think it's fairly clear that it is where God is.
2 Kings, Chapter 2
"11": And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that,
behold,
there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them
both
asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Which heaven ? We don't know
When you gather the many references to heaven in the bible, both OT & NT,
you find that they believed that the earth of flat disc with edges, sheoh
was beneath us, God was above us, God laid the heavenly "dome" above us,
stars with small points of lights for reasoning the times, God was in
thunder and earthly geological happenings such as earthquakes when He shook
the edges, God had a reservoir of rain, fire and brimestone that he poured
with heavenly vents, etc. etc.
John, Chapter 3
"13": And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Two things, One; as you know, by now, Which heaven ? And now we have a
TIME
FRAME !
This is fairly clear that it is the heaven where God is.
2 Corinthians, Chapter 12
"2": I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the
body,
I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
such
an one caught up to the third heaven. "3": And I knew such a man,
(whether
in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
Paul is referencing himself. Paul himself was the man. ONLY he tells us
that there are 3 (perhaps tiers) of heavens.
As the Jesus event had passed, he could have went all the way to the
seventh, and there wouldn't be an inconsistency
Well, I could follow your train of thought as ask.... How do we KNOW there
are tiers of heaven?
Hebrews, Chapter 11
"5": By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was
not
found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had
this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch was translated (in modern terms "transported") to WHERE ?
to be with God apparently...
The 'problem' with your 'insistency' here, is that it doesn't exist.
If heaven is one place or many tiers of the same place, it's STILL
heaven....
--
!!! I BELIEVE in God. The bible is a valuable book but is NOT inerrant
!!!
Agreed
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
|
| Title: Re: a problem with consistency - 41 |
07 Feb 2004 04:59:42 PM |
|
|
"Jude" <Jude@whyIoughta.com> wrote in message
news:Yw6Vb.21176$qK3.10650@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:1027mr6pspogr42@corp.supernews.com...
"Jude" <Jude@cantstandspam.> wrote in message
news:RZIAb.4385$rG.1868@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Genesis, Chapter 5
"24": And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
To which "heaven" ? We don't know
Well, I think it's fairly clear that it is where God is.
I can be assumed, but isn't God everywhere ?
2 Kings, Chapter 2
"11": And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that,
behold,
there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them
both
asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Which heaven ? We don't know
When you gather the many references to heaven in the bible, both OT & NT,
you find that they believed that the earth of flat disc with edges, sheoh
was beneath us, God was above us, God laid the heavenly "dome" above us,
stars with small points of lights for reasoning the times, God was in
thunder and earthly geological happenings such as earthquakes when He
shook
the edges, God had a reservoir of rain, fire and brimestone that he poured
with heavenly vents, etc. etc.
True, if you take it all literally, I fully agree.. But that still doesn't
deal with the topic at hand.
John, Chapter 3
"13": And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down
from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Two things, One; as you know, by now, Which heaven ? And now we have a
TIME
FRAME !
This is fairly clear that it is the heaven where God is.
Addressed above.
2 Corinthians, Chapter 12
"2": I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the
body,
I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God
knoweth;) such
an one caught up to the third heaven. "3": And I knew such a man,
(whether
in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
Paul is referencing himself. Paul himself was the man. ONLY he tells us
that there are 3 (perhaps tiers) of heavens.
There are seven according to Jewish and Christian mystics
As the Jesus event had passed, he could have went all the way to the
seventh, and there wouldn't be an inconsistency
Well, I could follow your train of thought as ask.... How do we KNOW there
are tiers of heaven?
As to how we know, I have no real answer, but you are wrong about "tiers of
heaven" they are separate heavens, one our sky, two outer space, three to
seven being spiritual
Hebrews, Chapter 11
"5": By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and
was not
found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he
had
this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch was translated (in modern terms "transported") to WHERE ?
to be with God apparently...
But to which heaven ?
The 'problem' with your 'inconsistency' here, is that it doesn't exist.
If heaven is one place or many tiers of the same place, it's STILL
heaven....
Nope, they are seperate heavens
--
!!! I BELIEVE in God. The bible is a valuable book but is NOT inerrant
!!!
Agreed
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jude" |
|
| Title: Re: a problem with consistency - 41 |
08 Feb 2004 01:43:46 PM |
|
|
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:102arf2krgp3o61@corp.supernews.com...
"Jude" <Jude@whyIoughta.com> wrote in message
news:Yw6Vb.21176$qK3.10650@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:1027mr6pspogr42@corp.supernews.com...
"Jude" <Jude@cantstandspam.> wrote in message
news:RZIAb.4385$rG.1868@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Genesis, Chapter 5
"24": And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
To which "heaven" ? We don't know
Well, I think it's fairly clear that it is where God is.
I can be assumed, but isn't God everywhere ?
lol... cute..... which brings to mind the problem of many OT passages where
God seems NOT to be omnipresent. Times when God seems to HAVE to find
something out, have to test, times in which He "comes down" from heaven or
"goes up" to heaven. It all falls back on the writer's perception of where
God lived.
Heaven may be a state of being and not a place. Who knows. THAT'S why I
don't get TOO caught up in details that can't be known until we're with Him.
:)
2 Kings, Chapter 2
"11": And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that,
behold,
there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted
them
both
asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Which heaven ? We don't know
When you gather the many references to heaven in the bible, both OT &
NT,
you find that they believed that the earth of flat disc with edges,
sheoh
was beneath us, God was above us, God laid the heavenly "dome" above us,
stars with small points of lights for reasoning the times, God was in
thunder and earthly geological happenings such as earthquakes when He
shook
the edges, God had a reservoir of rain, fire and brimestone that he
poured
with heavenly vents, etc. etc.
True, if you take it all literally, I fully agree.. But that still doesn't
deal with the topic at hand.
Well, then what IS the topic at hand? I'm confused...
John, Chapter 3
"13": And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down
from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Two things, One; as you know, by now, Which heaven ? And now we have a
TIME
FRAME !
This is fairly clear that it is the heaven where God is.
Addressed above.
Again, who really KNOWS anyway, right? God and for whatever reason, we're
not given a whole lot of details. I accept that and stay away from
arguments about unknowable things.
2 Corinthians, Chapter 12
"2": I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in
the
body,
I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God
knoweth;) such
an one caught up to the third heaven. "3": And I knew such a man,
(whether
in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
Paul is referencing himself. Paul himself was the man. ONLY he tells
us
that there are 3 (perhaps tiers) of heavens.
There are seven according to Jewish and Christian mystics
Well, I'm not following people's perceptions. I follow God's lead... dummy
that I am. I know I can't find my way and I depend on God to possess me. I
DON'T trust people at ALL. They are NOT to be trusted with our souls.
That's my final word on that. I've learned the hard way NOT to trust others
and their perceptions. God will take care of me and I DON'T have to look
any further. I used to (and can still fall prey to) search and search for
knowledge relentlessly. Knowledge brings a lot of suffering. I've had
enough of that.
As the Jesus event had passed, he could have went all the way to the
seventh, and there wouldn't be an inconsistency
Well, I could follow your train of thought as ask.... How do we KNOW
there
are tiers of heaven?
As to how we know, I have no real answer, but you are wrong about "tiers
of
heaven" they are separate heavens, one our sky, two outer space, three to
seven being spiritual
Hebrews, Chapter 11
"5": By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and
was not
found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he
had
this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch was translated (in modern terms "transported") to WHERE ?
to be with God apparently...
But to which heaven ?
Really, what difference does it make?
The 'problem' with your 'inconsistency' here, is that it doesn't
exist.
If heaven is one place or many tiers of the same place, it's STILL
heaven....
Nope, they are seperate heavens
It's like a building with many rooms. Once you enter the building (heaven),
no matter which room you enter, you're still in heaven.
--
!!! I BELIEVE in God. The bible is a valuable book but is NOT
inerrant
!!!
Agreed
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
|
| Title: Re: a problem with consistency - 41 |
10 Feb 2004 05:04:21 PM |
|
|
Breathless, you left me with nothing to say :-)
"Jude" <Jude@whyIoughta.com> wrote in message
news:bhwVb.27724$qK3.17507@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:102arf2krgp3o61@corp.supernews.com...
"Jude" <Jude@whyIoughta.com> wrote in message
news:Yw6Vb.21176$qK3.10650@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:1027mr6pspogr42@corp.supernews.com...
"Jude" <Jude@cantstandspam.> wrote in message
news:RZIAb.4385$rG.1868@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Genesis, Chapter 5
"24": And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
To which "heaven" ? We don't know
Well, I think it's fairly clear that it is where God is.
I can be assumed, but isn't God everywhere ?
lol... cute..... which brings to mind the problem of many OT passages
where
God seems NOT to be omnipresent. Times when God seems to HAVE to find
something out, have to test, times in which He "comes down" from heaven or
"goes up" to heaven. It all falls back on the writer's perception of
where
God lived.
Heaven may be a state of being and not a place. Who knows. THAT'S why I
don't get TOO caught up in details that can't be known until we're with
Him.
:)
2 Kings, Chapter 2
"11": And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked,
that,
behold,
there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted
them
both
asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Which heaven ? We don't know
When you gather the many references to heaven in the bible, both OT &
NT,
you find that they believed that the earth of flat disc with edges,
sheoh
was beneath us, God was above us, God laid the heavenly "dome" above
us,
stars with small points of lights for reasoning the times, God was in
thunder and earthly geological happenings such as earthquakes when He
shook
the edges, God had a reservoir of rain, fire and brimestone that he
poured
with heavenly vents, etc. etc.
True, if you take it all literally, I fully agree.. But that still
doesn't
deal with the topic at hand.
Well, then what IS the topic at hand? I'm confused...
John, Chapter 3
"13": And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down
from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Two things, One; as you know, by now, Which heaven ? And now we have
a
TIME
FRAME !
This is fairly clear that it is the heaven where God is.
Addressed above.
Again, who really KNOWS anyway, right? God and for whatever reason, we're
not given a whole lot of details. I accept that and stay away from
arguments about unknowable things.
2 Corinthians, Chapter 12
"2": I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in
the
body,
I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God
knoweth;) such
an one caught up to the third heaven. "3": And I knew such a man,
(whether
in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
Paul is referencing himself. Paul himself was the man. ONLY he tells
us
that there are 3 (perhaps tiers) of heavens.
There are seven according to Jewish and Christian mystics
Well, I'm not following people's perceptions. I follow God's lead...
dummy
that I am. I know I can't find my way and I depend on God to possess me.
I
DON'T trust people at ALL. They are NOT to be trusted with our souls.
That's my final word on that. I've learned the hard way NOT to trust
others
and their perceptions. God will take care of me and I DON'T have to look
any further. I used to (and can still fall prey to) search and search for
knowledge relentlessly. Knowledge brings a lot of suffering. I've had
enough of that.
As the Jesus event had passed, he could have went all the way to the
seventh, and there wouldn't be an inconsistency
Well, I could follow your train of thought as ask.... How do we KNOW
there
are tiers of heaven?
As to how we know, I have no real answer, but you are wrong about "tiers
of
heaven" they are separate heavens, one our sky, two outer space, three
to
seven being spiritual
Hebrews, Chapter 11
"5": By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;
and
was not
found, because God had translated him: for before his translation
he
had
this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch was translated (in modern terms "transported") to WHERE ?
to be with God apparently...
But to which heaven ?
Really, what difference does it make?
The 'problem' with your 'inconsistency' here, is that it doesn't
exist.
If heaven is one place or many tiers of the same place, it's STILL
heaven....
Nope, they are seperate heavens
It's like a building with many rooms. Once you enter the building
(heaven),
no matter which room you enter, you're still in heaven.
--
!!! I BELIEVE in God. The bible is a valuable book but is NOT
inerrant
!!!
Agreed
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jude" |
|
| Title: Re: a problem with consistency - 41 |
10 Feb 2004 05:31:28 PM |
|
|
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:102iorps1efric6@corp.supernews.com...
Breathless, you left me with nothing to say :-)
Peace, brother..... :)
"Jude" <Jude@whyIoughta.com> wrote in message
news:bhwVb.27724$qK3.17507@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:102arf2krgp3o61@corp.supernews.com...
"Jude" <Jude@whyIoughta.com> wrote in message
news:Yw6Vb.21176$qK3.10650@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in
message
news:1027mr6pspogr42@corp.supernews.com...
"Jude" <Jude@cantstandspam.> wrote in message
news:RZIAb.4385$rG.1868@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Genesis, Chapter 5
"24": And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took
him.
To which "heaven" ? We don't know
Well, I think it's fairly clear that it is where God is.
I can be assumed, but isn't God everywhere ?
lol... cute..... which brings to mind the problem of many OT passages
where
God seems NOT to be omnipresent. Times when God seems to HAVE to find
something out, have to test, times in which He "comes down" from heaven
or
"goes up" to heaven. It all falls back on the writer's perception of
where
God lived.
Heaven may be a state of being and not a place. Who knows. THAT'S why
I
don't get TOO caught up in details that can't be known until we're with
Him.
:)
2 Kings, Chapter 2
"11": And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked,
that,
behold,
there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted
them
both
asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Which heaven ? We don't know
When you gather the many references to heaven in the bible, both OT
&
NT,
you find that they believed that the earth of flat disc with edges,
sheoh
was beneath us, God was above us, God laid the heavenly "dome" above
us,
stars with small points of lights for reasoning the times, God was
in
thunder and earthly geological happenings such as earthquakes when
He
shook
the edges, God had a reservoir of rain, fire and brimestone that he
poured
with heavenly vents, etc. etc.
True, if you take it all literally, I fully agree.. But that still
doesn't
deal with the topic at hand.
Well, then what IS the topic at hand? I'm confused...
John, Chapter 3
"13": And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came
down
from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Two things, One; as you know, by now, Which heaven ? And now we
have
a
TIME
FRAME !
This is fairly clear that it is the heaven where God is.
Addressed above.
Again, who really KNOWS anyway, right? God and for whatever reason,
we're
not given a whole lot of details. I accept that and stay away from
arguments about unknowable things.
2 Corinthians, Chapter 12
"2": I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether
in
the
body,
I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God
knoweth;) such
an one caught up to the third heaven. "3": And I knew such a
man,
(whether
in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
Paul is referencing himself. Paul himself was the man. ONLY he
tells
us
that there are 3 (perhaps tiers) of heavens.
There are seven according to Jewish and Christian mystics
Well, I'm not following people's perceptions. I follow God's lead...
dummy
that I am. I know I can't find my way and I depend on God to possess
me.
I
DON'T trust people at ALL. They are NOT to be trusted with our souls.
That's my final word on that. I've learned the hard way NOT to trust
others
and their perceptions. God will take care of me and I DON'T have to
look
any further. I used to (and can still fall prey to) search and search
for
knowledge relentlessly. Knowledge brings a lot of suffering. I've had
enough of that.
As the Jesus event had passed, he could have went all the way to
the
seventh, and there wouldn't be an inconsistency
Well, I could follow your train of thought as ask.... How do we KNOW
there
are tiers of heaven?
As to how we know, I have no real answer, but you are wrong about
"tiers
of
heaven" they are separate heavens, one our sky, two outer space, three
to
seven being spiritual
Hebrews, Chapter 11
"5": By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;
and
was not
found, because God had translated him: for before his
translation
he
had
this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch was translated (in modern terms "transported") to WHERE ?
to be with God apparently...
But to which heaven ?
Really, what difference does it make?
The 'problem' with your 'inconsistency' here, is that it doesn't
exist.
If heaven is one place or many tiers of the same place, it's STILL
heaven....
Nope, they are seperate heavens
It's like a building with many rooms. Once you enter the building
(heaven),
no matter which room you enter, you're still in heaven.
--
!!! I BELIEVE in God. The bible is a valuable book but is NOT
inerrant
!!!
Agreed
.
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