| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Frank" |
| Date: |
30 Sep 2005 02:53:23 PM |
| Object: |
Re: All atheists are deluded |
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:mv8qj1ht2j85kv7j92tjba03fn7km049if@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:39:05 -0400, HMS Beagle <bgates@microsoft.org>
wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:12:51 -0500, "Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net>
wrote:
First I talk about correct reasoning generally, and then I apply this
correct
reasoning. Direct experience can prove a positive statement, and can not
prove a negative statement. Do you understand and agree with this?
I understand and agree.
If the reasoning is indeed correct. That is Mr. Olcott's problem. Mine
too as it happens.
Only mathematical logic, working withing prescribed rules and
parameters can claim infallability
Then I get more specific
It is conceivable (the concept itself does not inherently form a
contradiction)
that God can be proven to exist by direct experience. It is NOT
conceivable
that God can be proven to not exist by direct experience.
Your logic is airtight.
Except the direct experience cannot be proved even to the observer
since self-delusion cannot be ruled out. We know how powerful the
brain is at doing that. We also know It is perfectly capable of
blotting out (forgetting) uncomfortable things.
But which god? Jehovah? Brahman? The Goddess Narisah? Ganesha?
Maybe Isis? oh, or how about Osiris? Lets not leave out Ra, the god
of the sun (one of my personal favorites). Which?
Indeed 'which' or even 'none of the above' (all gods claimed in
history)
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Each god has attributes composing an ideal. Which god, means which
ideals incorporate all the principles you believe in and by which you live,
or aim to live. Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.
Atheists have no god, for their ideals are whatever comes natural at the
time, and requires the least effort to achieve. They are a ship without a
map nor rudder, sure to founder sooner or later.
It's up to each individual to search the world's supermarket of ideas /
ideals to find an answer to the question: What or who, if any, will be my
God? Most people's god is Mammon, the lust for money. What will be your God
or devil? Indecision and procrastination perhaps?
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
01 Oct 2005 09:52:30 AM |
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On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:53:23 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:mv8qj1ht2j85kv7j92tjba03fn7km049if@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:39:05 -0400, HMS Beagle <bgates@microsoft.org>
wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:12:51 -0500, "Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net>
wrote:
First I talk about correct reasoning generally, and then I apply this
correct
reasoning. Direct experience can prove a positive statement, and can not
prove a negative statement. Do you understand and agree with this?
I understand and agree.
If the reasoning is indeed correct. That is Mr. Olcott's problem. Mine
too as it happens.
Only mathematical logic, working withing prescribed rules and
parameters can claim infallability
Then I get more specific
It is conceivable (the concept itself does not inherently form a
contradiction)
that God can be proven to exist by direct experience. It is NOT
conceivable
that God can be proven to not exist by direct experience.
Your logic is airtight.
Except the direct experience cannot be proved even to the observer
since self-delusion cannot be ruled out. We know how powerful the
brain is at doing that. We also know It is perfectly capable of
blotting out (forgetting) uncomfortable things.
But which god? Jehovah? Brahman? The Goddess Narisah? Ganesha?
Maybe Isis? oh, or how about Osiris? Lets not leave out Ra, the god
of the sun (one of my personal favorites). Which?
Indeed 'which' or even 'none of the above' (all gods claimed in
history)
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Each god has attributes composing an ideal. Which god, means which
ideals incorporate all the principles you believe in and by which you live,
or aim to live.
Which of course makes them 'inventions'
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.
Another of these inventions. Except this one does not make much sense.
Atheists have no god, for their ideals are whatever comes natural at the
time, and requires the least effort to achieve. They are a ship without a
map nor rudder, sure to founder sooner or later.
A view from the point of a theist who sees the necessity of a god as
pilot. Naturally you seek to discredit the non-god solution.
It's up to each individual to search the world's supermarket of ideas /
ideals to find an answer to the question: What or who, if any, will be my
God?
I am not looking for a god to invent.
Most people's god is Mammon, the lust for money. What will be your God
or devil? Indecision and procrastination perhaps?
Why select those two items from your supermarket? You could have
selected:
Peace, happiness and prosperity for all.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
02 Oct 2005 03:43:33 AM |
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"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:c48tj11588pie10ipgp9rdocbbn9q84dt3@4ax.com...
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:53:23 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
It's up to each individual to search the world's supermarket of ideas
/
ideals to find an answer to the question: What or who, if any, will be my
God?
I am not looking for a god to invent.
"invent"? The concept "God" incorporates your principal ideals by which
you live. It's what is most important to you and by which you measure
yourself and will be measured by God. If you don't have any, you are as good
as dead from the neck up.
Most people's god is Mammon, the lust for money. What will be your God
or devil? Indecision and procrastination perhaps?
Why select those two items from your supermarket? You could have
selected: Peace, happiness and prosperity for all.
Are those the ideals you were born to accomplish and are you dedicating
your life to accomplishing them? You will be judged (by yourself and God) by
the quantity of your successes and failures, versus having done nothing.
I get the impression from your posts, that you would rather be a
nay-sayer, careful to commit yourself to nothing and no one. Yet, we all
were born to accomplish a purpose in life and were given the talents needed
to accomplish that purpose. What might your purpose be, and are you
dedicating your life to accomplishing your purpose?
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
03 Oct 2005 08:45:10 AM |
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On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:43:33 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:c48tj11588pie10ipgp9rdocbbn9q84dt3@4ax.com...
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:53:23 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
It's up to each individual to search the world's supermarket of ideas
/
ideals to find an answer to the question: What or who, if any, will be my
God?
I am not looking for a god to invent.
"invent"? The concept "God" incorporates your principal ideals by which
you live. It's what is most important to you and by which you measure
yourself and will be measured by God. If you don't have any, you are as good
as dead from the neck up.
No, its what you think is important to you. The fake god of the Bible
has no relevance to my life and never has. It is a lie to say 'I am as
good as dead' since you have no basis whatsover for that accusation.
I am very much alive and very much enjoy life. Please refrain from
insulting me like this in future it does you no credit.
Most people's god is Mammon, the lust for money. What will be your God
or devil? Indecision and procrastination perhaps?
Why select those two items from your supermarket? You could have
selected: Peace, happiness and prosperity for all.
Are those the ideals you were born to accomplish and are you dedicating
your life to accomplishing them? You will be judged (by yourself and God) by
the quantity of your successes and failures, versus having done nothing.
I get the impression from your posts, that you would rather be a
nay-sayer, careful to commit yourself to nothing and no one.
Well not that it is any of your business is it? To tell me I have no
committments on anything or anyone simply because I have no
beliefs in gods is yet another Christian lie and insult we often
here. As ever you dwell in the land of ignorance.
One thing you may have noticed is my passionate defence of freedom and
right to freedom of speech and conscience which the religious ever
seek to restrict or take away. So there is at least one committment
for you!
Yet, we all
were born to accomplish a purpose in life and were given the talents needed
to accomplish that purpose. What might your purpose be, and are you
dedicating your life to accomplishing your purpose?
I think I will start taking a tally of all these unsupported
assertions.
Assertion No.1 We are all born to worship 'god'.
Nah, can't be bothered, I would need to start a list and it would soon
get too long to manage.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
03 Oct 2005 05:00:30 PM |
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"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:v8b2k1ho4b2mn3r3f3dep7gjh02m2j0iol@4ax.com...
On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:43:33 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
I get the impression from your posts, that you would rather be a
nay-sayer, careful to commit yourself to nothing and no one.
Well not that it is any of your business is it? To tell me I have no
committments on anything or anyone simply because I have no
beliefs in gods is yet another Christian lie and insult we often
here. As ever you dwell in the land of ignorance.
We all here in our pristine Christian NGs will remain ignorant of your
"business" until you tell us what is the paradigm by which you live, and who
or what represents that paradigm in the flesh, much like Jesus Christ
represents ours.
One thing you may have noticed is my passionate defence of freedom and
right to freedom of speech and conscience which the religious ever
seek to restrict or take away. So there is at least one committment
for you!
Where do you draw the line? What about intolerant people who go about
trashing other people's beliefs and flame their person, like atheists do in
our pristine Christian NGs? Should their preaching of hate be restricted? Or
are you in favour of letting it all hang out any which way? Like the
Homosexual parade organizer told us: If you don't like men simulating anal
intercourse on our floats, I would suggest you look away. "Freedom" sounds
good, but usually means: Freedom to do whatever to others, who don't have
the freedom to object and get noticed, unless of course they blow themselves
up among those who not only restrict their freedom, but their rights as
well, that is.
Let's see you support human rights as per below.
Yet, we all
were born to accomplish a purpose in life and were given the talents
needed
to accomplish that purpose. What might your purpose be, and are you
dedicating your life to accomplishing your purpose?
I think I will start taking a tally of all these unsupported
assertions.
Note the question mark above? You are not answering the question.
Assertion No.1 We are all born to worship 'god'.
Nah, can't be bothered, I would need to start a list and it would soon
get too long to manage.
We all DO worship a god or devil. Like I said: God or Satan is whatever
is most important in your life. Most people's god or devil is Mammon, the
lust or greed for money. But gods and devils can be drug or food addiction,
your sexual urges, your loved ones etc. etc. there is no limit to existing
gods or devils.
You say your god is freedom. But to find out whether the freedom you so
"passionately" advocate is your god or in fact your devil, depends on to
what degree you limit your own freedom, so that other people can have some
freedom too.
Pastor Frank
PETITION TO WORLD LEADERS
We CHRISTIANS FOR UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS seek to have
human rights made mandatory everywhere. Presently we want Zionist
aggression, oppression, occupation and colonialism in the Middle East
declared a "Crime against Humanity", which must be adjudicated.
We want occupation and confiscation of land made illegal, and the
appalling conditions imposed on occupied civilian populations lifted.
We want an International Court with power to resolve territorial
disputes established NOW, so that the dispossessed and ethnically
cleansed can sue for redress, obviating their need to blow themselves
up among their ruthless enemies to get noticed.
Any government conducting or supporting colonialism or other human
rights abuses, must be declared a rogue state and their leaders and
perpetrators must face criminal charges. Supporting, encouraging or
financing human and civil rights abusers must be considered a hate crime.
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
05 Oct 2005 09:23:37 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
message news:v8b2k1ho4b2mn3r3f3dep7gjh02m2j0iol@4ax.com...
On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:43:33 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
I get the impression from your posts, that you would
rather be a
nay-sayer, careful to commit yourself to nothing and no one.
Well not that it is any of your business is it? To tell me I
have no committments on anything or anyone simply because I
have no beliefs in gods is yet another Christian lie and
insult we often here. As ever you dwell in the land of
ignorance.
We all here in our pristine Christian NGs will remain
ignorant of your
"business" until you tell us what is the paradigm by which you
live, and who or what represents that paradigm in the flesh,
much like Jesus Christ represents ours.
One thing you may have noticed is my passionate defence of
freedom and right to freedom of speech and conscience which
the religious ever seek to restrict or take away. So there is
at least one committment for you!
Where do you draw the line? What about intolerant people
who go about
trashing other people's beliefs and flame their person,
You continually crosspost to Aa trying to trash logic, reason adn
Atheism in name
of a not even real xianity. Yiou are a troll.
Take your own advice and stop crossposting crap to AA.
God as defined by theology cannot even exist. Your un-orthodox
god claims are even less possible.
Stop crossposting to AA, where you are unwelcome.
Take your own advice.
--
The official spokesman of the Foxes said
today that investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed.
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
06 Oct 2005 06:41:51 PM |
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"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11k7nf296eptpd9@corp.supernews.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
message news:v8b2k1ho4b2mn3r3f3dep7gjh02m2j0iol@4ax.com...
On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:43:33 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
I get the impression from your posts, that you would
rather be a
nay-sayer, careful to commit yourself to nothing and no one.
Well not that it is any of your business is it? To tell me I
have no committments on anything or anyone simply because I
have no beliefs in gods is yet another Christian lie and
insult we often here. As ever you dwell in the land of
ignorance.
We all here in our pristine Christian NGs will remain
ignorant of your
"business" until you tell us what is the paradigm by which you
live, and who or what represents that paradigm in the flesh,
much like Jesus Christ represents ours.
One thing you may have noticed is my passionate defence of
freedom and right to freedom of speech and conscience which
the religious ever seek to restrict or take away. So there is
at least one committment for you!
Where do you draw the line? What about intolerant people
who go about
trashing other people's beliefs and flame their person,
You continually crosspost to Aa trying to trash logic, reason adn
Atheism in name
of a not even real xianity. Yiou are a troll.
Take your own advice and stop crossposting crap to AA.
God as defined by theology cannot even exist. Your un-orthodox
god claims are even less possible.
Stop crossposting to AA, where you are unwelcome.
Take your own advice.
Don't lie to us. Why not admit, you are here at the devil's invitation
to proselytize atheism to us Christians. After all, 6 out of the 7 groups in
the header are Christian.
Btw I don't have an "unorthodox" God, for I only post the definitions I
find in the NT Bible, especially how Jesus Himself explains the term "God"
to a skeptical Philip. (see below) If that is "unorthodox", then you must
have been a member of one very weird sect before becoming an atheist.
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
07 Oct 2005 12:08:19 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11k7nf296eptpd9@corp.supernews.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
message news:v8b2k1ho4b2mn3r3f3dep7gjh02m2j0iol@4ax.com...
On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:43:33 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
I get the impression from your posts, that you would
rather be a
nay-sayer, careful to commit yourself to nothing and no one.
Well not that it is any of your business is it? To tell me I
have no committments on anything or anyone simply because I
have no beliefs in gods is yet another Christian lie and
insult we often here. As ever you dwell in the land of
ignorance.
We all here in our pristine Christian NGs will remain
ignorant of your
"business" until you tell us what is the paradigm by which
you live, and who or what represents that paradigm in the
flesh, much like Jesus Christ represents ours.
One thing you may have noticed is my passionate defence of
freedom and right to freedom of speech and conscience which
the religious ever seek to restrict or take away. So there
is at least one committment for you!
Where do you draw the line? What about intolerant people
who go about
trashing other people's beliefs and flame their person,
You continually crosspost to AA trying to trash logic, reason
and Atheism in name
of a not even real xianity. You are a troll.
Take your own advice and stop crossposting crap to AA.
God as defined by theology cannot even exist. Your
un-orthodox god claims are even less possible.
Stop crossposting to AA, where you are unwelcome.
Take your own advice.
Don't lie to us. Why not admit, you are here at the devil's
invitation
to proselytize atheism to us Christians. After all, 6 out of
the 7 groups in the header are Christian.
You are one of AA's most notable instigators of crossposting.
You are a troll.
Btw I don't have an "unorthodox" God, for I only post the
definitions I
find in the NT Bible,
You are a troll. You post gibberish.
--
The official spokesman of the Foxes said
today that investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed.
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
08 Oct 2005 04:16:10 AM |
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"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11kbvle922qcqf1@corp.supernews.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11k7nf296eptpd9@corp.supernews.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
message news:v8b2k1ho4b2mn3r3f3dep7gjh02m2j0iol@4ax.com...
On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 04:43:33 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
I get the impression from your posts, that you would
rather be a
nay-sayer, careful to commit yourself to nothing and no one.
Well not that it is any of your business is it? To tell me I
have no committments on anything or anyone simply because I
have no beliefs in gods is yet another Christian lie and
insult we often here. As ever you dwell in the land of
ignorance.
We all here in our pristine Christian NGs will remain
ignorant of your
"business" until you tell us what is the paradigm by which
you live, and who or what represents that paradigm in the
flesh, much like Jesus Christ represents ours.
One thing you may have noticed is my passionate defence of
freedom and right to freedom of speech and conscience which
the religious ever seek to restrict or take away. So there
is at least one committment for you!
Where do you draw the line? What about intolerant people
who go about
trashing other people's beliefs and flame their person,
You continually crosspost to AA trying to trash logic, reason
and Atheism in name
of a not even real xianity. You are a troll.
Take your own advice and stop crossposting crap to AA.
God as defined by theology cannot even exist. Your
un-orthodox god claims are even less possible.
Stop crossposting to AA, where you are unwelcome.
Take your own advice.
Don't lie to us. Why not admit, you are here at the devil's
invitation
to proselytize atheism to us Christians. After all, 6 out of
the 7 groups in the header are Christian.
You are one of AA's most notable instigators of crossposting.
You are a troll.
Btw I don't have an "unorthodox" God, for I only post the
definitions I
find in the NT Bible,
You are a troll. You post gibberish.
Scratch the religious groups from your header.
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
03 Oct 2005 03:16:23 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
message news:c48tj11588pie10ipgp9rdocbbn9q84dt3@4ax.com...
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:53:23 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
It's up to each individual to search the world's
supermarket of ideas
/
ideals to find an answer to the question: What or who, if any,
will be my God?
I am not looking for a god to invent.
"invent"? The concept "God" incorporates your principal
ideals
Pure and total *****. What then were the gods of Stalin and
Pol Pot and Gengis Khan?
When you turn genocide and mass murder into god, one would think
that would give you pause for thought about your deep stupidity.
But you didn't get that far because you weren't smart enough.
You are an idiot and aren't smart enough to stop proving that
fact.
Your psychobabble above shows you are not capable of thinking
about the consequences of your lame spewage.
--
The official spokesman of the Foxes said
today that investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed.
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
05 Oct 2005 10:03:16 PM |
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"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11k33d93osdv4b6@corp.supernews.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"invent"? The concept "God" incorporates your principal
ideals
Pure and total *****. What then were the gods of Stalin and
Pol Pot and Gengis Khan?
Those were devils, the evil equivalent of god, the other side of the
coin. Would you rather follow those? Maybe not. I bet you likely just follow
yourself, your own lusts and desires, and like other Simians do whatever
comes natural. LOL
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
06 Oct 2005 01:17:47 AM |
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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:03:16 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11k33d93osdv4b6@corp.supernews.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"invent"? The concept "God" incorporates your principal
ideals
Pure and total *****. What then were the gods of Stalin and
Pol Pot and Gengis Khan?
Those were devils, the evil equivalent of god, the other side of the
coin.
That is nonsense.
Would you rather follow those? Maybe not. I bet you likely just follow
yourself, your own lusts and desires, and like other Simians do whatever
comes natural. LOL
And you continue to babble dishonest nonsense.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
06 Oct 2005 07:26:04 PM |
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"thomas p" <tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:nic9k1tf4mhl18q7uc165kpn8ed20rp84t@4ax.com...
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:03:16 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11k33d93osdv4b6@corp.supernews.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"invent"? The concept "God" incorporates your principal
ideals
Pure and total *****. What then were the gods of Stalin and
Pol Pot and Gengis Khan?
Those were devils, the evil equivalent of god, the other side of the
coin.
That is nonsense.
Would you rather follow those? Maybe not. I bet you likely just follow
yourself, your own lusts and desires, and like other Simians do whatever
comes natural. LOL
And you continue to babble dishonest nonsense.
How is it, that atheists always know what's "dishonest nonsense", wrong,
false, erroneous, mistaken, inconsistent, lies etc. etc. ad nauseam and ad
infinitum, but never know nor advocate sense?
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
10 Oct 2005 05:35:02 AM |
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Les Hellawell wrote:
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:53:23 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:mv8qj1ht2j85kv7j92tjba03fn7km049if@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:39:05 -0400, HMS Beagle <bgates@microsoft.org>
wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:12:51 -0500, "Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net>
wrote:
First I talk about correct reasoning generally, and then I apply this
correct
reasoning. Direct experience can prove a positive statement, and can not
prove a negative statement. Do you understand and agree with this?
I understand and agree.
If the reasoning is indeed correct. That is Mr. Olcott's problem. Mine
too as it happens.
Only mathematical logic, working withing prescribed rules and
parameters can claim infallability
Then I get more specific
It is conceivable (the concept itself does not inherently form a
contradiction)
that God can be proven to exist by direct experience. It is NOT
conceivable
that God can be proven to not exist by direct experience.
Your logic is airtight.
Except the direct experience cannot be proved even to the observer
since self-delusion cannot be ruled out. We know how powerful the
brain is at doing that. We also know It is perfectly capable of
blotting out (forgetting) uncomfortable things.
But which god? Jehovah? Brahman? The Goddess Narisah? Ganesha?
Maybe Isis? oh, or how about Osiris? Lets not leave out Ra, the god
of the sun (one of my personal favorites). Which?
Indeed 'which' or even 'none of the above' (all gods claimed in
history)
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Each god has attributes composing an ideal. Which god, means which
ideals incorporate all the principles you believe in and by which you live,
or aim to live.
Which of course makes them 'inventions'
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.
Another of these inventions. Except this one does not make much sense.
Atheists have no god, for their ideals are whatever comes natural at the
time, and requires the least effort to achieve. They are a ship without a
map nor rudder, sure to founder sooner or later.
A view from the point of a theist who sees the necessity of a god as
pilot. Naturally you seek to discredit the non-god solution.
It's up to each individual to search the world's supermarket of ideas /
ideals to find an answer to the question: What or who, if any, will be my
God?
I am not looking for a god to invent.
Most people's god is Mammon, the lust for money. What will be your God
or devil? Indecision and procrastination perhaps?
Why select those two items from your supermarket? You could have
selected:
Peace, happiness and prosperity for all.
Aaaaaah, it can't be 'all' as 'all' is reserved for members of their exclusive
club.
Nothing new in that it has been going on since the Stone Age
Bob
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
01 Oct 2005 08:43:15 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in
message news:mv8qj1ht2j85kv7j92tjba03fn7km049if@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:39:05 -0400, HMS Beagle
<bgates@microsoft.org> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:12:51 -0500, "Peter Olcott"
<olcott@att.net> wrote:
First I talk about correct reasoning generally, and then I
apply this correct
reasoning. Direct experience can prove a positive statement,
and can not prove a negative statement. Do you understand and
agree with this?
I understand and agree.
If the reasoning is indeed correct. That is Mr. Olcott's
problem. Mine too as it happens.
Only mathematical logic, working withing prescribed rules and
parameters can claim infallability
Then I get more specific
It is conceivable (the concept itself does not inherently
form a contradiction)
that God can be proven to exist by direct experience. It is
NOT conceivable
that God can be proven to not exist by direct experience.
Your logic is airtight.
Except the direct experience cannot be proved even to the
observer
since self-delusion cannot be ruled out. We know how powerful
the brain is at doing that. We also know It is perfectly
capable of blotting out (forgetting) uncomfortable things.
But which god? Jehovah? Brahman? The Goddess Narisah?
Ganesha?
Maybe Isis? oh, or how about Osiris? Lets not leave out Ra,
the god
of the sun (one of my personal favorites). Which?
Indeed 'which' or even 'none of the above' (all gods claimed
in history)
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Each god has attributes composing an ideal. Which god,
means which
ideals incorporate all the principles you believe in and by
which you live,
or aim to live. Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)
become fully manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of
Calvary.
Atheists have no god, for their ideals are whatever comes
natural at the
time, and requires the least effort to achieve. They are a
ship without a map nor rudder, sure to founder sooner or later.
It's up to each individual to search the world's
supermarket of ideas /
ideals to find an answer to the question: What or who, if any,
will be my God? Most people's god is Mammon, the lust for
money. What will be your God or devil? Indecision and
procrastination perhaps?
You god is the god of massacres, genocides and evil.
Thankfully, your evil god does not exist.
We look at they history of Chriostianity and it is unmitigated
evil for over 1600 years.
It makes people stupid and evil.
Its time to notice god camnnot possibly exist.
Especially the god of stupid and evil you worship.
Part 1
IS THERE A GOD?
Strong Atheism's answer.
A BASIC DEFINITION OF GOD.
The general overarching definition of god as per
the major religions of the world is:
A. God is personal, God has will and conciousness.
B. God has free will.
C. God is the creator of all.
D. God is omnipotent.
E. God is omnibenevolent.
F. God is omniscient.
G. God is that which nothing more powerful
can be imagined.
These are the basic attributes that can be claimed for
the god of orthodox Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and
Hinduism.
Omnibenevolence and omniscience are actually logically
derivable from the claimed attribute of omnipotence and
so aren't not truely independent attributes, and may be
considered special aspects of omnipotence.
There are other attributes of god, that he is the only
such god, that he is is immortal and that god has always
existed that are not important for this discussion and for
now, can be ignored. They are secondary arguments and in
no way are foundational or truely necessary, except those
that can be logically derived from the attributes listed
above.
A CLASS OF GODS
It is important to note here that this is a definition
not for a particular god, but an entire class of gods.
Sub-theories about god are not important here. Christianity
claims one may attain salvation only through Jesus, Islam
claims the Christian dogma that Jesus was the son of god is
blasphemous. Ideas like this though, are of little importance
to the overarching and general claims made for a personal,
creator, omni-everything god. I have coined a term,
The Grand God of Grand Theologies for this sort of god.
Grand theologies are those theologies that have adopted this
class of god as their basic attributes concerning the nature
of god. But it is important to remember here that what is
being discussed here is a class of gods, not particular gods.
THE FOUR GREAT THEOLOGICAL TRADITIONS
Again, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism hold
to this basic Grand God and are typical Grand Theologies
holding to this basic class of god as their basic
definitions of what god is at god's most basic level.
A big problem with this class of gods is, it collapses
rather easily into internal self contradiction.
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL.
The problem of evil was first written down by Epicurus
in about the third century BCE.
Today's formulation is:
A. God is defined as omnipotent;
B. and as omnibenevolent.
C. Evil exists.
D. God therefore, is not omnipotent as claimed.
E. Or God is not omnibenevolent as claimed.
F. Or god is neither omnipotent or omnibenevolent.
G. Or god is not existant.
THE FREE WILL DEFENSE
The free will defense of the problem of evil goes back
to St. Augustine who popularized it. It is still popular,
and is championed most notably today by Alvin Plantinga.
God gave man free will. Man freely chooses to do evil.
Ability to do evil is less evil than lacking free will.
THE FREE WILL DEFENSE DEBUNKED.
God has free will.
God is omnibenevolent, he has a good nature incapable
of doing evil.
A. If god can have free will, and a good nature, this good
nature is not allowed to cound againts god's free will.
B. Nor is god's lack of ability to do evil
allowed to count against god's omnipotence.
C. Likewise, man could easily have a god like
free will and a god like good nature.
D. Inabilty then to do evil would no more count against
man's free will than it does for god's free will.
E. If so, it also counts against god's free will and god
does not have free will as claimed.
F. If god does not have absolute and total free will, thus
free will is not a true necessity at all.
F. If god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, and can give
man a god like free will and a god like good nature
incapable of moral evil, god must do so or god is not
moral, not omnibenevolent.
G. Evil exists because he allows it to.
So free will does not exist, or it does and we can have
a god like free will and a god like good nature.
Either way, free will cannot explain away the existance
of evil. This free will defense then, is a failed argument.
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God created the Universe and all in it.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all in
the Universe and he knows the future of the Universe
and its contents.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that in 13 billion
years this Universe will have a man named John Smith in it.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and damned, God
will know that.
E. As he knows that the Universe in its present state will
have a John Smith, god may then contemplate the future state
of Smith and decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith.
F. If yes, Smith will be evil only because of a specific
personal
and will choice made solely by god.
G. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely because of a choice
made by god. In fact all moral evil done by creations of god
will be evil and do evil only because of personal and willful
creations of god allowing evil acts to be done, by direct
decision of god.
H. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient creator god, it
is
solely and only because god allows evil.
I. If evil exists solely because of personal choices of god, god
then is not as defined, omnibenevolent.
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have
any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with a god
that creates all and knows all precludes free will for all
beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
The Grand God of Grand
Theology is thus self destroying, it is incoherent
and contradictory as a theory.
THE SITUATION SO FAR.
1. A minimalistic class of gods is defined, this Grand God,
has been defined here with as few terms as possible.
2. The problem of evil dooms such a claimed god.
3. The attempted defence, free will is fatally flawed.
God's good nature and free will doom claims free
will makes evil necessary for man to have free will.
4. Omniscience and creatorhood of god further doom claims of
god's omnibenevolence and man's free will Free will cannot
exist for man. All evil is the direct and knowing creation
of god contradicting claims of omnibenevolence.
5. Since Free will for man is totally impossible, free will
cannot be a good quality, much less neccesary.
Here, the Grand God of Grand Theology has collapsed. As has Grand
Theology. As pointed out, this destroys the claims and viability
of an entire class of possible gods, all secondary and tertiary
claims for such a god of this class also fail, as do dogmas or
secondary claims.
If a these Grand Gods cannot exist as defined, specific gods
cannot, nor can claims such as this or that Grand God sent this
or that relevation to man or some prophet.
***********
--
The official spokesman of the Foxes said
today that investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed.
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: All atheists are deluded |
01 Oct 2005 12:36:03 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:mv8qj1ht2j85kv7j92tjba03fn7km049if@4ax.com...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:39:05 -0400, HMS Beagle <bgates@microsoft.org>
wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:12:51 -0500, "Peter Olcott" <olcott@att.net>
wrote:
First I talk about correct reasoning generally, and then I apply this
correct
reasoning. Direct experience can prove a positive statement, and can not
prove a negative statement. Do you understand and agree with this?
I understand and agree.
If the reasoning is indeed correct. That is Mr. Olcott's problem. Mine
too as it happens.
Only mathematical logic, working withing prescribed rules and
parameters can claim infallability
Then I get more specific
It is conceivable (the concept itself does not inherently form a
contradiction)
that God can be proven to exist by direct experience. It is NOT
conceivable
that God can be proven to not exist by direct experience.
Your logic is airtight.
Except the direct experience cannot be proved even to the observer
since self-delusion cannot be ruled out. We know how powerful the
brain is at doing that. We also know It is perfectly capable of
blotting out (forgetting) uncomfortable things.
But which god? Jehovah? Brahman? The Goddess Narisah? Ganesha?
Maybe Isis? oh, or how about Osiris? Lets not leave out Ra, the god
of the sun (one of my personal favorites). Which?
Indeed 'which' or even 'none of the above' (all gods claimed in
history)
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
Each god has attributes composing an ideal. Which god, means which
ideals incorporate all the principles you believe in and by which you live,
or aim to live. Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.
IOW a product of our imagination.
I said so all along.
Thanks
Atheists have no god, for their ideals are whatever comes natural at the
time, and requires the least effort to achieve. They are a ship without a
map nor rudder, sure to founder sooner or later.
The Chinese will be talking all our jobs soon Frank and they are godless and
certainly not rudderless. Only a fool thinks a normal human being can not
exist decently without your saccharine religious nonsense.
It's up to each individual to search the world's supermarket of ideas /
ideals to find an answer to the question: What or who, if any, will be my
God? Most people's god is Mammon, the lust for money. What will be your God
or devil? Indecision and procrastination perhaps?
Does your god teach you how to be nasty about people that do not follow your
primitive myth, or does it just come naturally?
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
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