| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
| Date: |
13 Nov 2006 08:05:09 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Bible Study - The Marriage in Cana |
Mary was told who her son was before He was born, did you forget that ?
"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote in
message news:slrnecn5ob.3p8.werner@peace-with.all...
::: veralein ::: in <4j17haF5l0abU1@individual.net>
on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
(1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee.
Third day counted from when?
Jesus' mother was there. (2) Jesus also was invited, with his
disciples, to the marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus'
mother said to him, "They have no wine." (4) Jesus said to
her, "Woman, what does that have to do with you and me? My
hour has not yet come." (5) His mother said to the servants,
"Whatever he says to you, do it."
Isn't this interesting, Mary before Jesus got into the action,
told them to follow the instructions Jesus would later give
them? How could she have known that Jesus had some powers?
After all she acted in anticipation that Jesus would do
something special.
Is this the point your getting at?
(6) Now there were six water pots of stone set there after the
Jews' manner of purifying, containing two or three metretes
apiece. (7) Jesus said to them, "Fill the water pots with
water." They filled them up to the brim. (8) He said to them,
"Now draw some out, and take it to the ruler of the feast." So
they took it. (9) When the ruler of the feast tasted the water
now become wine, and didn't know where it came from (but the
servants who had drawn the water knew), the ruler of the feast
called the bridegroom, (10) and said to him, "Everyone serves
the good wine first, and when the guests have drunk freely,
then that which is worse. You have kept the good wine until
now!" (11) This beginning of his signs Jesus did in Cana of
Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in
him. John 2:1-11 WEB
So this was Jesus *first* sign, and yet before he performed it
Mary could give instructions...
John 1:14 WEB The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We
saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the
Father, full of grace and truth.
Any serious ideas are appreciated.
::: vera :::
BTW do you get some kick-backs for advertising?
Werner Kurator
--
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"
Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible
August 1983......
==============================================================
"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."
Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
==============================================================
Building a computer that could instantly recalculate artillery tables
into the gun itself was a gleam in the eye of the early designers.
(Today, of course, we can build those computers into the "shells"
themselves.) -- Mark Atwood in RASFW
.
|
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Study - The Marriage in Cana |
14 Nov 2006 10:51:30 AM |
|
|
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
Mary was told who her son was before He was born, did you forget that ?
===>Yes, according to the "LUKE" story, she was lied to, deceived into
violating her betrothal by getting impregnated by a source other than
her husband. She was promised the son would become the next king!
As for "Cana",
Bishop Spong observed that only the mother of the bride groom
could have given such instructions to her son and to the servants.
Spong's conclusion is: the bride was Mary Magdalene, who became the
wife of Jesus. (SEE: "Born of a Woman")
As for the word "CANA", IMO it is derived from the word for "Zealot".
It was a major event for the Jewish resistance fighters, when their
leader was getting married. Mary M. was slated to be the queen or
royal consort next to king Jesus.
The Gospel of Philip says she WAS his wife or consort. -- L.
"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote in
message news:slrnecn5ob.3p8.werner@peace-with.all...
::: veralein ::: in <4j17haF5l0abU1@individual.net>
on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
(1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee.
Third day counted from when?
Jesus' mother was there. (2) Jesus also was invited, with his
disciples, to the marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus'
mother said to him, "They have no wine." (4) Jesus said to
her, "Woman, what does that have to do with you and me? My
hour has not yet come." (5) His mother said to the servants,
"Whatever he says to you, do it."
Isn't this interesting, Mary before Jesus got into the action,
told them to follow the instructions Jesus would later give
them? How could she have known that Jesus had some powers?
After all she acted in anticipation that Jesus would do
something special.
Is this the point your getting at?
(6) Now there were six water pots of stone set there after the
Jews' manner of purifying, containing two or three metretes
apiece. (7) Jesus said to them, "Fill the water pots with
water." They filled them up to the brim. (8) He said to them,
"Now draw some out, and take it to the ruler of the feast." So
they took it. (9) When the ruler of the feast tasted the water
now become wine, and didn't know where it came from (but the
servants who had drawn the water knew), the ruler of the feast
called the bridegroom, (10) and said to him, "Everyone serves
the good wine first, and when the guests have drunk freely,
then that which is worse. You have kept the good wine until
now!" (11) This beginning of his signs Jesus did in Cana of
Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in
him. John 2:1-11 WEB
So this was Jesus *first* sign, and yet before he performed it
Mary could give instructions...
John 1:14 WEB The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We
saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the
Father, full of grace and truth.
Any serious ideas are appreciated.
::: vera :::
BTW do you get some kick-backs for advertising?
Werner Kurator
--
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"
Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible
August 1983......
==============================================================
"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."
Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
==============================================================
Building a computer that could instantly recalculate artillery tables
into the gun itself was a gleam in the eye of the early designers.
(Today, of course, we can build those computers into the "shells"
themselves.) -- Mark Atwood in RASFW
.
|
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| User: "John" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Study - The Marriage in Cana |
15 Nov 2006 11:32:59 AM |
|
|
Libertarius wrote:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
Mary was told who her son was before He was born,
did you forget that ?
===>Yes, according to the "LUKE" story, she was lied to,
deceived into violating her betrothal by getting
impregnated by a source other than her husband. She was
promised the son would become the next king!
FYI, there were two visions of the Messiah in prophesy.
See: http://bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp
There was the suffering Messiah and there was the ruling
or "conquering" Messiah. You are accusing God of lying
just because *God* decided to send the suffering Messiah
before he sent the ruling Messiah. Too bad, things will
be done according to *his* plan, not yours. BTW, it
makes absolutely no sense to send the ruling Messiah
before the suffering Messiah. First came the suffering
Messiah to pay the price of sin for those would follow
him. Then, the ruling Messiah comes and *everyone* will
see.
Isaiah 45:23
"By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered
in all integrity a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue
will swear."
Romans 14:11
"It is written: 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will
confess to God.'"
Philippians 2:10, 11
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and
every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."
Yeshua is already the King; he sits at the right hand
of God the Father (BTW, "right hand" represents power).
Yeshua is currently preparing a place for us (Christians).
God the Father determines when he will send Yeshua to
return to earth as the ruling Messiah.
As for "Cana",
Bishop Spong observed that only the mother of the bride groom
could have given such instructions to her son and to the servants.
Spong's conclusion is: the bride was Mary Magdalene, who became the
wife of Jesus. (SEE: "Born of a Woman")
As for the word "CANA", IMO it is derived from the word for "Zealot".
It was a major event for the Jewish resistance fighters, when their
leader was getting married. Mary M. was slated to be the queen or
royal consort next to king Jesus.
Obviously you are easily led astray by silly polemical
assertions.
The Gospel of Philip says she WAS his wife or consort. -- L.
There is no authentic statement, even in the so called,
"Gospel of Philip, that says that anyone *WAS* the
wife or consort of Yeshua. As you know, the actual
translation of the term used in this *dubious* book
is "companion," not wife or consort.
http://www.metalog.org/files/ph_interlin/ph036.html
http://www.metalog.org/files/ph_interlin/ph059.html
As for Patterson Brown's faulty translation, see the section
titled "Mary Magdalene in the Gnostic Gospels" on page 43 of
the following Word doc:
www.ottawa-theologyontap.com/resources/transcripts/mar-21_2006-davinci.doc
Not even Wesley W. Isenberg translates the text as
Patterson Brown did. See the better translation:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html
The term is best translated "companion." Why, everyone
traveling with Yeshua might be considered his companion!
But then, who cares? The so called "Gospel of Philip"
is totally dubious anyway. Even the 20th Century title,
"Gospel of Philip," is totally misleading. These dubious
non-biblical writings were certainly not written by Philip
the Apostle. Instead, they are only 2nd or 3rd century
polemic writings that have no authenticity as a credible
witness or connection to the actual life, times, and truth
about Yeshua. These writings, as you should know, are used
by Gnostics and now conspiracy theorists, not by Christians.
The very practices and beliefs of Gnosticism, especially
the subsequent Gnostic heterodoxy that was influencing
early Christians, was even *WARNED AGAINST* in a couple
of books of the New Testament. The Gnostics had their own
set of writings while the Christians held to the authentic
books of the Bible. Any attempt to associate the dubious
Gnostic teachings with authentic Yeshua and the subsequent
followers of authentic Christianity is deceptive.
.
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Study - The Marriage in Cana |
20 Nov 2006 05:14:15 PM |
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|
Good read, thanks....
"John" <root@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:cpydnX3sTYrY0sbYnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@comcast.com...
Libertarius wrote:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
Mary was told who her son was before He was born,
did you forget that ?
===>Yes, according to the "LUKE" story, she was lied to,
deceived into violating her betrothal by getting
impregnated by a source other than her husband. She was
promised the son would become the next king!
FYI, there were two visions of the Messiah in prophesy.
See: http://bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp
There was the suffering Messiah and there was the ruling
or "conquering" Messiah. You are accusing God of lying
just because *God* decided to send the suffering Messiah
before he sent the ruling Messiah. Too bad, things will
be done according to *his* plan, not yours. BTW, it
makes absolutely no sense to send the ruling Messiah
before the suffering Messiah. First came the suffering
Messiah to pay the price of sin for those would follow
him. Then, the ruling Messiah comes and *everyone* will
see.
Isaiah 45:23
"By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered
in all integrity a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue
will swear."
Romans 14:11
"It is written: 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will
confess to God.'"
Philippians 2:10, 11
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and
every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."
Yeshua is already the King; he sits at the right hand
of God the Father (BTW, "right hand" represents power).
Yeshua is currently preparing a place for us (Christians).
God the Father determines when he will send Yeshua to
return to earth as the ruling Messiah.
As for "Cana",
Bishop Spong observed that only the mother of the bride groom
could have given such instructions to her son and to the servants.
Spong's conclusion is: the bride was Mary Magdalene, who became the
wife of Jesus. (SEE: "Born of a Woman")
As for the word "CANA", IMO it is derived from the word for "Zealot".
It was a major event for the Jewish resistance fighters, when their
leader was getting married. Mary M. was slated to be the queen or
royal consort next to king Jesus.
Obviously you are easily led astray by silly polemical
assertions.
The Gospel of Philip says she WAS his wife or consort. -- L.
There is no authentic statement, even in the so called,
"Gospel of Philip, that says that anyone *WAS* the
wife or consort of Yeshua. As you know, the actual
translation of the term used in this *dubious* book
is "companion," not wife or consort.
http://www.metalog.org/files/ph_interlin/ph036.html
http://www.metalog.org/files/ph_interlin/ph059.html
As for Patterson Brown's faulty translation, see the section
titled "Mary Magdalene in the Gnostic Gospels" on page 43 of
the following Word doc:
www.ottawa-theologyontap.com/resources/transcripts/mar-21_2006-davinci.doc
Not even Wesley W. Isenberg translates the text as
Patterson Brown did. See the better translation:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html
The term is best translated "companion." Why, everyone
traveling with Yeshua might be considered his companion!
But then, who cares? The so called "Gospel of Philip"
is totally dubious anyway. Even the 20th Century title,
"Gospel of Philip," is totally misleading. These dubious
non-biblical writings were certainly not written by Philip
the Apostle. Instead, they are only 2nd or 3rd century
polemic writings that have no authenticity as a credible
witness or connection to the actual life, times, and truth
about Yeshua. These writings, as you should know, are used
by Gnostics and now conspiracy theorists, not by Christians.
The very practices and beliefs of Gnosticism, especially
the subsequent Gnostic heterodoxy that was influencing
early Christians, was even *WARNED AGAINST* in a couple
of books of the New Testament. The Gnostics had their own
set of writings while the Christians held to the authentic
books of the Bible. Any attempt to associate the dubious
Gnostic teachings with authentic Yeshua and the subsequent
followers of authentic Christianity is deceptive.
.
|
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Study - The Marriage in Cana |
17 Nov 2006 08:01:23 PM |
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|
John wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
Mary was told who her son was before He was born,
did you forget that ?
===>Yes, according to the "LUKE" story, she was lied to,
deceived into violating her betrothal by getting
impregnated by a source other than her husband. She was
promised the son would become the next king!
FYI, there were two visions of the Messiah in prophesy.
See: http://bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp
There was the suffering Messiah
===>NONSENSE!
The "suffering messiah" is just a Christian invention.
There's no such thing in any prophecy.
The prototype of the REAL "messiah" is found in
Isaiah 45. And it is NOT a "sufferer" but a CONQUEROR!
and there was the ruling
or "conquering" Messiah.
===>That is the ONLY "messiah", the Jewish version of
Zarathustra's Saoshyant.
You are accusing God of lying
===>I am not accusing anyone of anything.
Definitely not any "god".
Just pointing out details of the Gospel story.
just because *God* decided to send the suffering Messiah
before he sent the ruling Messiah.
===>Nonsense!
The story says Mary was promised that her baby will receive
the throne of king David!
Too bad, things will
be done according to *his* plan, not yours.
===>Nothing will be done. What was done was already done.
BTW, it
makes absolutely no sense to send the ruling Messiah
before the suffering Messiah. First came the suffering
Messiah to pay the price of sin for those would follow
him. Then, the ruling Messiah comes and *everyone* will
see.
===>Pure garbage, Pauline Christos-cultic NONSENSE!
Isaiah 45:23
"By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered
in all integrity a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue
will swear."
Romans 14:11
"It is written: 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will
confess to God.'"
Philippians 2:10, 11
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and
every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."
===>This is how the Pauline letters replace the Jewish deity
with his own "Christos".
Yeshua is already the King; he sits at the right hand
of God the Father (BTW, "right hand" represents power).
===>How and when did the throne of king David get into
"heaven"???
Yeshua is currently preparing a place for us (Christians).
God the Father determines when he will send Yeshua to
return to earth as the ruling Messiah.
===>More nonsense.
The gospels and pauline texts say the "end" was to come
in the FIRST CENTURY.
Of course it was just false advertising to sell the fake
"gospel".
As for "Cana",
Bishop Spong observed that only the mother of the bride groom
could have given such instructions to her son and to the servants.
Spong's conclusion is: the bride was Mary Magdalene, who became the
wife of Jesus. (SEE: "Born of a Woman")
As for the word "CANA", IMO it is derived from the word for "Zealot".
It was a major event for the Jewish resistance fighters, when their
leader was getting married. Mary M. was slated to be the queen or
royal consort next to king Jesus.
Obviously you are easily led astray by silly polemical
assertions.
===>Obviously you are totally brainwashed into the traditional
church thinking.
Are you capable of any original thought or decision on your own?
The Gospel of Philip says she WAS his wife or consort. -- L.
There is no authentic statement, even in the so called,
"Gospel of Philip, that says that anyone *WAS* the
wife or consort of Yeshua. As you know, the actual
translation of the term used in this *dubious* book
is "companion," not wife or consort.
===>The reference is clearly to MM and it makes no
difference how you translate it.
Remember: "A rose by any other name..."
http://www.metalog.org/files/ph_interlin/ph036.html
http://www.metalog.org/files/ph_interlin/ph059.html
As for Patterson Brown's faulty translation, see the section
titled "Mary Magdalene in the Gnostic Gospels" on page 43 of
the following Word doc:
www.ottawa-theologyontap.com/resources/transcripts/mar-21_2006-davinci.doc
Not even Wesley W. Isenberg translates the text as
Patterson Brown did. See the better translation:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html
The term is best translated "companion." Why, everyone
traveling with Yeshua might be considered his companion!
But then, who cares? The so called "Gospel of Philip"
is totally dubious anyway.
===>ALL "gospels" are "totally dubious".
They are all semi-fictional accounts about some religious
hero named "IESOUS". The Church authorities simply selected and edited
the ones they considered most suited for their compilation they called
"Holy Books".
Even the 20th Century title,
"Gospel of Philip," is totally misleading. These dubious
non-biblical writings were certainly not written by Philip
the Apostle. Instead, they are only 2nd or 3rd century
polemic writings that have no authenticity as a credible
witness or connection to the actual life, times, and truth
about Yeshua. These writings, as you should know, are used
by Gnostics and now conspiracy theorists, not by Christians.
===>Actually they PRECEDED the Christian compilation!
The very practices and beliefs of Gnosticism, especially
the subsequent Gnostic heterodoxy that was influencing
early Christians, was even *WARNED AGAINST* in a couple
of books of the New Testament.
===>Why? Because their teachings were DERIVED from gnosticism,
but were denounced, the way Christians denounce Judaism and
Protestants denounce Catholicism.
You can't fool me, Kid!
The Gnostics had their own
set of writings while the Christians held to the authentic
books of the Bible.
===>You are totally ignorant of the history of the Bible.
MARCION compiled the first bible, the Church simply imitated
his endeavor.
Any attempt to associate the dubious
Gnostic teachings with authentic Yeshua and the subsequent
followers of authentic Christianity is deceptive.
===>Those are the words of one who is totally deceived.
I.e., "John".
Open your mind if possible. -- L.
.
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: Bible Study - The Marriage in Cana |
15 Nov 2006 12:19:16 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:32:59 -0500, while bungee jumping, John
<root@127.0.0.1> shouted thusly:
FYI, there were two visions of the Messiah in prophesy.
See: http://bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp
There was the suffering Messiah and there was the ruling
or "conquering" Messiah. You are accusing God of lying
just because *God* decided to send the suffering Messiah
before he sent the ruling Messiah. Too bad, things will
be done according to *his* plan, not yours. BTW, it
makes absolutely no sense to send the ruling Messiah
before the suffering Messiah. First came the suffering
Messiah to pay the price of sin for those would follow
him. Then, the ruling Messiah comes and *everyone* will
see.
Agreed, but the Messiah is ruling now.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
.
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: Bible Study - The Marriage in Cana |
15 Nov 2006 03:19:26 PM |
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Azaliah wrote:
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:32:59 -0500, while bungee jumping, John
<root@127.0.0.1> shouted thusly:
FYI, there were two visions of the Messiah in prophesy.
See: http://bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp
There was the suffering Messiah and there was the ruling
or "conquering" Messiah. You are accusing God of lying
just because *God* decided to send the suffering Messiah
before he sent the ruling Messiah. Too bad, things will
be done according to *his* plan, not yours. BTW, it
makes absolutely no sense to send the ruling Messiah
before the suffering Messiah. First came the suffering
Messiah to pay the price of sin for those would follow
him. Then, the ruling Messiah comes and *everyone* will
see.
Agreed, but the Messiah is ruling now.
No disagreement there, the Messiah is ruling now.
Yeshua sits at the Right Hand of God the Father.
Note: The "Right Hand" is a reference to power.
BTW, I think it would be better to have included
a small part of the message from Libertarius.
Otherwise, people reading this message might
think that *you* accused God of lying. Just to
help keep the record straight, it was Libertarius
that blathered the following:
Libertarius: ===> "Yes, according to the "LUKE" story,
she was lied to,"
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Bible Study - The Marriage in Cana |
17 Nov 2006 08:03:35 PM |
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John wrote:
Azaliah wrote:
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:32:59 -0500, while bungee jumping, John
<root@127.0.0.1> shouted thusly:
FYI, there were two visions of the Messiah in prophesy.
See: http://bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp
There was the suffering Messiah and there was the ruling
or "conquering" Messiah. You are accusing God of lying
just because *God* decided to send the suffering Messiah
before he sent the ruling Messiah. Too bad, things will
be done according to *his* plan, not yours. BTW, it
makes absolutely no sense to send the ruling Messiah
before the suffering Messiah. First came the suffering
Messiah to pay the price of sin for those would follow
him. Then, the ruling Messiah comes and *everyone* will
see.
Agreed, but the Messiah is ruling now.
No disagreement there, the Messiah is ruling now.
Yeshua sits at the Right Hand of God the Father.
Note: The "Right Hand" is a reference to power.
BTW, I think it would be better to have included
a small part of the message from Libertarius.
Otherwise, people reading this message might
think that *you* accused God of lying. Just to
help keep the record straight, it was Libertarius
that blathered the following:
Libertarius: ===> "Yes, according to the "LUKE" story,
she was lied to,"
===>You guys should learn how to read!
A course in reading comprehension might help you. -- L.
.
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| User: "Athanasius" |
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| Title: Re: Bible Study - The Marriage in Cana |
15 Nov 2006 04:03:43 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:19:16 GMT, Azaliah <_giantwaffle_@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Agreed, but the Messiah is ruling now.
agreed as well.
I see we have much which we are in agreement. :-)
Athanasius,
dcnUNDERSCOREathanasiusATyahooDOTcomDOTau
"If the world is against Athanasius then Athanasius is against
the world." St Athanasius the Apostolic, 20th Patriarch of Alexandria.
.
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