On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:07:51 GMT,
John Savard <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
Baard Ove Kopperud <baard.kopperud@bigfoot.com> wrote:
But why *should* the fetus have any rights -- it's not yet *born*!
Why on Earth should that mean anything? What's so important
about being born?
Everything. It's not only the overriding issue -- it is the ONLY
significant issue.
Birth is when the living child is moved from one place to another...
In your bigoted and "I-don't-give-a-rat's-*****-for-women" FANTASY
world, maybe. But not in reality. ALL **children** have been BORN.
And there is NO good reason to attempt to acribe *any* value to
unwanted reproductive-process entities. Especially when doing so
would be to ANY degree at the expense of any actual, alreay-born,
PERSON.
Human life is a self-perpetuating CONTINUUM, and all entities
within it are both human and alive. ALL **four** stages of the
reproductive process's entities -- gametes, zygotes, embryoes, and
fetuses -- are human. unique, and alive. Every single one of those
represents a *potential* person. Which, if terminated, becomes a
potential person who will **never** become an *actual* person.
The Bible (which clearly is the basic moral authority upon which
this nation's laws were written, and for 87% of Americans today)
NEVER defends reproductive-process entities -- except ONE time,
when it regarded the entity to be **property** in a passage that also
condones slavery. And ALL human life that the Bible DOES defend,
has been BORN.
BIRTH is the definitive moment, too, per the Bible's emphasis on
the importance of BIRTHrights and BIRTH order.
Thus, per BOTH logic *and* the Bible, only PEOPLE (and not mere
reproductive-process entities) have INTRINSIC value. The **only**
value that reproductive-process entities can ever have is ASCRIBED
value. The value that the woman gestating it *chooses* to arbitrarily
ascribe to it. And the same applies to men and their sperm.
Thus, the ultimate disposition of a given reproductive-process
entity is the business ONLY of the person who is harboring it.
[ ... ]
It's true that out of a traditional habit, we tend to mark the time of
birth as the beginning of a person's life, but that is only a custom
adopted for convenience in measurement, not an accurate reflection
of the underlying physical reality.
Nope. As I pointed out above, the Bible affirms BOTH that person-
hood begins at birth, and that it does not regard mere reproductive-
process entities to be defensible. Heck -- if frequently even fails
to regard PEOPLE to be defensible. As we see in Exodus 21:20-25 --
First off, the person being DEFENDED by those verses clearly is
the WOMAN. (There's no suggestion that her FETUS be removed
and evaluated for injuries, so that the appropriate penalties of "an
eye for an eye" or "a tooth for a tooth" can properly be imposed.)
Next -- I LOVE it when Anti-Choicers draw upon that passage,
because it would be hard to come up with one that could be used
as a BETTER example of just how UNlikely is is that the Bible would
go to the extent of defending g/z/e/fs! (For the sake of brevity,
I'll use only the NIV in my responses.) Here's why. Turn to the
verses IMMEDIATELY *before* the ones you cited, in the SAME
passage: Ex. 21:20-21...
20 -- If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the
slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
21 -- but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a
day or two, since the slave is his property.
Here we see the Bible treating:
A. An already-human being as mere PROPERTY.
B. It can be either a MALE or a FEMALE
C. There is NO penalty to the assailant if death doesn't occur.
D. If death DOES occur, the penalty is UNSPECIFIED.
So let's consider THIS scenario: A 13-year-old girl (or it could
be a boy) suddenly and inexplicably provokes the wrath of her owner,
who takes a rod and violently THRASHES her mercilessly to within a
millimeter of her life, and leaves her lying in a senseless and
unconscious bloody heap in the middle of a dusty road. She lies there
in abject agony, mixed with periods of unconsciousness, for two days
and nights. Then, 47 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds after the
beating, she manages to struggle to her feet and struggle off,
crippled and maimed, teeth broken off, arm broken, and with an
eye put out. The penalty to her owner for having inflicted such
horrendous, unconscionable and cruel damage? NONE!!
Or she DIES. What is her owner's penalty THEN? It's unspecified.
For all we know, it could be 3 lashes on the back of his hand by a
fellow slave owner, wielding a wet noodle.
Given all of this, the notion that the Bible would be concerned
with mere g/z/e/fs becomes totally LUDICROUS.
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222@mchsi.com>
(REAL name and e-mail address, lest any bigot wrongly
think I'm hiding behind an a alias. The "alias," above,
is designed to be a visible MESSAGE, each time I post.)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Every time a person supports bigotry in public, and presents NO
relevant FACTS to back his/her stance in behalf of a loathsome
agenda against individual liberties and human rights, that person
has -- ironically -- further **damaged** the cause he/she supports.
And every time a fair-minded and sensible egalitarian opposes
such a bigot, publicly, and **presents** relevant FACTS that are
damaging to the bigot's agenda, that TOO is an additional nail in
the coffin lid of the agenda, and a push of that casket CLOSER
to the Drain of Extinction -- its well-deserved ultimate destination.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Kerry -- two medals: a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well -- they don't give medals for
going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry -- a hero, Bush -- a zero.
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.2 trillion and worsening...
The Bush 'economic' policy: - 3 million jobs and counting...
The Bush Iraq lie: - 1,070+ GIs, and mounting...
Having Bush louse up my country: Worthless
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
There's a Train a'Comin' in !!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooo
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............_|.K E R R Y..|.|.|___|""""""""""|.|[(< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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.............( + ).....( + ).....( + )( + )( + )( + )..\
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
V....I....C....T....O....R....Y......2....0....0....4
Kerry/Edwards 2004
A Stronger America Begins At Home!
A Stronger America Begins with You!
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INSIGHT on our Warmonger-in-Thief ---
http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html
AND...
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
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ALSO worth a look:
http://anon.newmediamill.speedera.net/anon.newmediamill/pledge_acc/index.html
And... here's what happens to people like you & me:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/21/antiwar.soldier.ap/index.html
However, the same rules don't apply to the "Elite:"
www.awolbush.com
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