On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:08:10 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Exactly. We both agree in things of biblical logic.
btw... did I neglect to mention the whole world is in darkness?
Opps, sorry about that. I should have said that in line number 1.
two things...
If Luke was giving a list of things which must occur first, then he was
giving a list of events whihc would include the destruction of Jerusalem
and the Temple...
Using Luke, You said that the most important sign
that proved that Christ has not returned yet, is as
follows...
"But before all these, they shall lay their hands on
you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the
synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before
kinds and rulers for My Name's sake. And it shall
turn to you for a testimony."
That is a quote of your message and what you claimed
(those verses) is absolute proof that Christ could not
have returned yet, because you said that those things
have not happened yet.
You want us to believe that this never happened
to the Apostles, when the New Testament is full
of examples of it happening and when history
records that they were martyred under Nero.
So let's look at them, one by one and see what happens
when we do, okay? I'll be nice and I won't even bring
history into it. I'll just stick to whatever the Bible
says. And I'll be even nicer and I won't quote every
example from the Bible.
Here is the list of things mentioned in what you quoted
and my responses to them...
1) THEY WOULD BE PERSECUTED.
They were persecuted right from the start.
"And to him they agreed: and when they had called
the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded
that they should not speak in the name of Jesus,
and let them go." - Acts 5:40
Paul even persecuted Christians himself, "unto death".
Is death not harsh enough of a persecution for you?
Does it not qualify as persecution, Glenn (OWD)?
"And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding
and delivering into prisons both men and women."
- Acts 22:4
Of course, Paul himself was also later persecuted
and stated that they all were.
1 Corinthians 4:9-13
9) For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles
last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made
a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10) We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in
Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are
honorable, but we are despised.
11) Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and
thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no
certain dwelling place;
12) And labor, working with our own hands: being
reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13) Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as
the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of
all things unto this day.
2 Corinthians 4:8-11
8) We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed;
we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9) Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not
destroyed;
10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of
the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be
made manifest in our body.
11) For we which live are always delivered unto death
for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be
made manifest in our mortal flesh.
Paul confessed again that he persecuted the church
and "wasted it".
"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past
in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure
I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:"
- Galatians 1:13
Paul also talks about the Jewish Christians being
persecuted by their own countrymen.
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15
14) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches
of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also
have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even
as they have of the Jews:
15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own
prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please
not God, and are contrary to all men:
"Are they ministers of Christ? I (speak as a fool)
I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes
above measure, in prisons more frequent, in
deaths oft." - 2 Corinthians 11:23
2) THEY WOULD BE DELIVERED UP TO SYNAGOGUES.
I won't quote all of one of the examples, for space
considerations, but everyone is free to read
Acts 5:17-41 and I think that, in combination
with 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15 above, that is
proof enough of this one.
3) THEY WOULD BE THROWN INTO PRISONS.
Again, we can see Acts 5:17-41 as proof and we know
that Paul was imprisoned often and wrote letters
that we have in the New Testament from prisons.
"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my
fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles,
who also were in Christ before me." - Romans 16:7
In fact, we can look throughout the NT and see how
many times Paul called himself, "the prisoner of
Jesus Christ", which he said to indicate that he was
locked up in prison.
2 Corinthians 6:4-5
4) But in all things approving ourselves as the
ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions,
in necessities, in distresses,
5) In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults,
in labors, in watchings, in fastings;
"Are they ministers of Christ? I (speak as a fool)
I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes
above measure, in prisons more frequent, in
deaths oft." - 2 Corinthians 11:23
"Aristarchus my fellow prisoner saluteth you"
- Colossians 4:10a
4) THEY WOULD BE BROUGHT BEFORE RULERS.
Again, Acts 5:17-41 proves this had already happened
and other passages as well.
Let us also note that the latter part of Acts shows
how Paul was brought before Felix, Festus and
ends with him on his way to testify before Caesar.
Also...
"All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are
of Caesar's household." - Philippians 4:22
5) IT WOULD TURN TO THEM FOR A TESTIMONY.
Acts 14:2-3
2) But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles,
and made their minds evil affected against the
brethren.
3) Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly
in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word
of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be
done by their hands.
1 Corinthians 1:4-6
4) I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace
of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5) That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all
utterance, and in all knowledge;
6) Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed
in you:
"Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony
of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou
partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according
to the power of God;" - 2 Timothy 1:8
And I will end this with Paul's words, which show
why all of this was happening. And I want you to
note that Paul said something quite different than
what you say, when you claim that the writers of
the New Testament were wrong...
Acts 27:23-25
23) For there stood by me this night the angel of God,
whose I am, and whom I serve,
24) Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought
before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all
them that sail with thee.
25) Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: FOR I BELIEVE
GOD, THAT IT SHALL BE EVEN AS IT WAS TOLD ME.
There are many more examples in the NT.
And remember Glenn (oldwetdog), you said these things
were in fact... "the most important sign that proved
that Christ has not returned yet".
So which is it Glenn (OWD)? Is the Bible right?
Or were the writers of the NT, once again, wrong,
because they disagree WITH YOU?!
The "whole world" being in darkness is a matter of definition or degree...
So in other words, you don't like it when your own
"word logic" is used against you and once again,
words mean the opposite of what they say?
Christians are not in darkenss...
"the world" is in darkness without Truth...
You mean your "Truth", which you claim is that
Christ will return in this generation, but of course,
the Apostles were wrong when they said Christ
would return within their generation.
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
"Let your moderation be known unto all men.
The Lord is AT HAND" - Philippians 4:5
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