| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"James" |
| Date: |
22 Apr 2007 11:50:49 AM |
| Object: |
Re: christians want the world to end. |
"Merlin" <merlinator@gmail.com>
Re: christians want the world to end.
all this pro iraqi war stuff is christians hoping this will help end
the world.
all this anti invironment stuff is chrsitians hoping ruining the
invironment will end the world.
all this ignorance of global warming is a direct attempt by chrisitans
to end the world.
all this over the top spending by christians in the white house is an
attempt to bankrupt america and help end the world.
the promotion of homophobia and racism in christianity is an attempt
to turn people against each other and cause social wars that will
tear democractic america apart at the seams.
all these illegal wire taps and illegal spying is an attempt to tear
down the constitution and end america as we know it.
we know that christians hate the world, and want to end it as they
rise up in the sky on balloons to heaven. wish we could see some love
for this world and people's in it, enough to have some christians
somewhere looking to treat others with respect.
the world is crashing cause christians have decided not be democratic
not be nice not to be loving. just read some of the hate messages on
christnet now.
in love with the loving jesus who had it worse than any silly
christian ever had it today.
merlin
merlin,
Genuine Christian go by what the Bible says because Jesus said that
God's word was the "truth". (Joh 17:17) And the apostle John wrote the
following "truth" for all followers of Jesus. 1 Jo 2:15-17,
"15. Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves
the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16. For everything in the world--the cravings of sinful man, the
lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not
from the Father but from the world.
17. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the
will of God lives forever."
Thus, genuine followers of the Bible can never "love" this old world,
because of its wickedness etc. (just hear the local news each day if
you don't belive it is wicked) That is why it has been marked to soon
"pass away", just like the cities Sodom and Gomorrah and some others,
were destined to be destroyed because of their wickedness. Those who
'loved' the world of their day, were destroyed along with those wicked
cities.
Even though you may not believe a word of what is written here, at
least you can see why true followers of God and Jesus cannot "love"
this old world.
Sincerely, James
**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
.
|
|
| User: "The_Sage" |
|
| Title: Re: christians want the world to end. |
22 Apr 2007 12:34:24 PM |
|
|
Reply to article by: James <bireda@allvantage.com>
Date written: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:50:49 -0400
MsgID:<lm3n2313ebe33bt7h73mff1dummkdqfjo2@4ax.com>
Re: christians want the world to end.
all this pro iraqi war stuff is christians hoping this will help end
the world.
all this anti invironment stuff is chrsitians hoping ruining the
invironment will end the world.
all this ignorance of global warming is a direct attempt by chrisitans
to end the world.
all this over the top spending by christians in the white house is an
attempt to bankrupt america and help end the world.
the promotion of homophobia and racism in christianity is an attempt
to turn people against each other and cause social wars that will
tear democractic america apart at the seams.
all these illegal wire taps and illegal spying is an attempt to tear
down the constitution and end america as we know it.
we know that christians hate the world, and want to end it as they
rise up in the sky on balloons to heaven. wish we could see some love
for this world and people's in it, enough to have some christians
somewhere looking to treat others with respect.
the world is crashing cause christians have decided not be democratic
not be nice not to be loving. just read some of the hate messages on
christnet now.
in love with the loving jesus who had it worse than any silly
christian ever had it today.
Genuine Christian go by what the Bible says
And where does the Bible say be pro-Iraq or anti-environment or spread
pseudo-scientific ignorance or spend 'till you drop or be homophobic or be
racists or spy on others. You can tell us all you want that you hate this ol'
world and everything about it, but your actions tell a completely different
story.
The Sage
=============================================================
http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in
one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you
dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why
I dismiss yours" (Stephen F. Roberts)
=============================================================
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Read The Bible" |
|
| Title: Christians want the world to end? |
23 Apr 2007 01:36:26 AM |
|
|
Christians only want the wickedness of the world
(including their own wickedness) to end: "The whole
world lieth in wickedness" (1 John 5:19). "The world
passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth
the will of God abideth for ever" (1 John 2:17). "Be
not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by
the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is
that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God"
(Romans 12:2).
Jesus Christ of Nazareth will return from heaven to
destroy those who are wicked, including wicked
Christians: "If that evil servant shall say in his
heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin
to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink
with the drunken; the lord of that servant shall come
in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour
that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder,
and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites;
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
(Matthew 24:48-51).
"He became the author of eternal salvation unto all
them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9). "They profess
that they know God; but in works they deny him,
being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every
good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16). "The Lord Jesus
shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know
not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord
Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting
destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from
the glory of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).
True Christians do not want the planet earth to be
harmed in any way, for Jesus Christ of Nazareth will
return from heaven to destroy those who have
destroyed the earth: "Destroy them which destroy the
earth" (Revelation 11:18).
But, sometime after Jesus reigns on the earth for
1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-7), He, as Creator of
the earth (John 1:3), will cause it to end and be
replaced by a new earth; "And I saw a new heaven and
a new earth: for the first heaven and the first
earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming
down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride
adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice
out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God
is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they
shall be his people, and God himself shall be with
them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all
tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more
death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall
there be any more pain: for the former things are
passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me,
Write: for these words are true and faithful"
(Revelation 21:1-5).
Knowing that this planet and world-system is only
temporary should help Christians to be more detached
from its sinful temptations: "The earth also and the
works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing
then that all these things shall be dissolved, what
manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy
conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting
unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the
heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the
elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless
we, according to his promise, look for new heavens
and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness"
(2 Peter 3:10-13).
Knowing that this planet and world-system is only
temporary should also help Christians to be more
detached from their sufferings in it: "We faint not;
but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man
is renewed day by day. For our light affliction,
which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more
exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look
not at the things which are seen, but at the things
which are not seen: for the things which are seen are
temporal; but the things which are not seen are
eternal" (2 Corinthians 4:16-18).
"For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man
as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the
flower thereof falleth away: but the word of the Lord
endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the
gospel is preached unto you" (1 Peter 1:24-25).
.
|
|
|
| User: "KlugeHans" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
23 Apr 2007 02:31:30 AM |
|
|
Religion always seems to begin in childlike immaturity in which God is
portrayed as a being, supernatural in power, eager to bless, protect and
care for us in our childlike fear. As we mature, the need for the parent
God fades and the divine, as being itself or as that experience of
transcendence, comes into focus. The boundary between humanity and
divinity also fades and the two seem to penetrate each other, making the
way into the divine and the journey into self-awareness quite similar. The
goal of the Christian life then becomes not rescue from the bondage of
sin, but expansion into a deeper sense of what it means to be human.
This approach represents, I believe, a significant shift in consciousness.
It also makes it clear that the content of the traditional religious myths
is no longer operative. Facing the end of traditional religious systems,
we fear that nothingness dwells at the heart of life and that drives us to
create security systems to protect us from our fear. Some are religious
and they always claim to possess inerrant truth or to be guided by an
infallible authority. Others seek to lose themselves in the pursuit of the
idols of alcohol, drugs, sex, wealth and pleasure. Still others sink into
the despair of being alone in an impersonal universe. I believe there is a
better option.
My sense is that the Christianity of the future must be willing to let go
the content of yesterday in a far more radical way than people have yet
imagined, but to do so without sacrificing the experience that created
yesterday's content. Only then can we begin the slow and laborious task of
developing new content to make sense of the eternal experience of being
human.
Long after fundamentalist churches have moved away from their excessive
but uninformed zeal and long after Benedict XVI has discovered that no one
can return to the Middle Ages without committing intellectual suicide, a
still, small voice will speak and a new reformation will begin on the
edges of yesterday's religious systems and slowly begin to make its way
into the center of our reality. I live for that day.
-- John Shelby Spong
I have never written about the Book of Revelation because I do not regard
it as worthy of the kind of study that would be required to write about
this book. I'm sorry it was included in the canon of the New Testament
because it is so dated. It is a piece of apocalyptic literature written
under a code developed by late 1st century Christians. Presumably the
community that wrote this book and that received it would understand that
it was designed to strengthen them to endure a persecution that was
probably local, not empire wide, in the last decade of the 1st Christian
century. It is a product of the same Johannine School that produced the
Gospel of John and the Epistles of John in the New Testament though it is
not by the same author. It probably does participate in the idea that the
world is coming to an end soon but that was obviously a mistake since we
are here now. In early Christianity there was an idea that the second
coming of Jesus and the dawning of the Kingdom of God on earth would come
in the lifetime of people living then. Paul advances this idea both in I
Thessalonians and in I Corinthians. By the end of the 1st century that
idea had begun to die out and was replaced by the suggestion that the
church must be built for the long term. The book of Acts reflects this new
consensus. The book of Revelation reflects a throwback to the earlier
attitude and may have been inspired by the current local persecution that
was interpreted as the beginning of the cruelty that would accompany the
end of the world. In later years, when the supposed date of Jesus' birth
was set and time counted from that day forward, end of the world talk has
always accompanied the end of a century and was even more pronounced at
the end of a millennium.
I have no truck with those who read the Bible this way. Predictions about
the end of the world, talk about the "rapture" and "no child left behind"
are all so much literal nonsense to me.
I have read the book of Revelation on several occasions. I studied it when
I was in seminary, but in no great depth. Today I would rather spend my
time on the gospels, Paul, or even the prophets, all of which have
enriched my life greatly. I do not see such potential in the book of
Revelation.
When one tries to interpret the symbols as Mr. Redel does in his letter,
he falls into the trap of assuming that there is some literal truth that
needs to be discovered. That is not the case. If all the copies of the
book of Revelation were lost tomorrow, I do not believe much of value
would disappear. However, it does keep some religious fanatics busy so
maybe that is its primary purpose.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Read The Bible" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
23 Apr 2007 03:00:53 AM |
|
|
KlugeHans posted:
The goal of the Christian life then becomes not
rescue from the bondage of sin...
"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And
the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but
the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make
you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:34-36).
"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our
sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him
sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him,
neither known him. Little children, let no man
deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is
righteous, even as he is righteous. He that
committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth
from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God
was manifested, that he might destroy the works of
the devil" (1 John 3:5-8).
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of
your father ye will do" (John 8:44).
"When they speak great swelling words of vanity,
they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through
much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from
them who live in error. While they promise them
liberty, they themselves are the servants of
corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the
same is he brought in bondage. For if after they
have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they
are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter
end is worse with them than the beginning. For it
had been better for them not to have known the way
of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to
turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true
proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again;
and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the
mire" (2 Peter 2:18-22).
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves
servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye
obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto
righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the
servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart
that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being
then made free from sin, ye became the servants of
righteousness. I speak after the manner of men
because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye
have yielded your members servants to uncleanness
and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield
your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
-For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free
from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those
things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of
those things is death. But now being made free from
sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit
unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the
wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal
life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:16-23).
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if
ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the
body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:13).
"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the
earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate
affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness,
which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath
of God cometh on the children of disobedience"
(Colossians 3:5-6).
.
|
|
|
| User: "KlugeHans" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
23 Apr 2007 05:10:12 PM |
|
|
"Christian anthropology assesses human nature as evil, broken, fallen, in
some cases even depraved. The interpretive myth behind this definition is
the ancient legend of the Garden of Eden. In that story God fashions a
perfect creation. The world lacks for nothing. Rivers run through this
paradise that are not polluted. Trees bear flowers and delicious fruit.
Gold and onyx are abundant. A man called Adam, and later a woman called
Eve, are placed into this Garden to tend it. They are the stewards of
God's creation, the rulers over the world of nature. Everything in the
Garden is for their use and benefit. God walks with them daily in perfect
communion. This story concludes with these words: "God saw everything that
God had made and indeed it was very good.......and on the seventh day God
finished the work he had done.....so God rested."
The man and the woman thus began their lives with an intimate and
non-broken relationship with their creator. The only limit placed on this
first family was that they were forbidden to eat the fruit of "a tree of
the knowledge of good and evil." If the rule was broken, they were told,
the penalty awaiting them was death.
But into that paradise came the tempter in the form of a serpent extolling
the virtues of the forbidden fruit until the woman first (for the ancient
patriarchal wisdom was that the alluring woman was the source of the man's
corruption) and then the man violated this prohibition, and fell into sin.
Since death was universal, the assumption was made that the sin which
brought death was also universal. The fall of the first family, it was
said, corrupted the entire human race. Sin was thus original, inescapable,
passed on from generation to generation, from parent to child, presumably
through the act of procreation. The whole human race was fallen and no one
was capable of restoring it. People were yearning for God to rescue them
from the plight of their humanity. That anthropological understanding of
human life was the assumption upon which the Christian story was based.
This negativity toward human nature has long been a dominant part of our
religious system. That is why our liturgy refers to human beings as
"miserable sinners" who are "not worthy to gather up the crumbs under
(God's) table." In the evangelical tradition we sing such passive
dependent hymns as "Have Thine own way Lord, have Thine own way, Thou art
the potter, I am the clay. Mold me and make me after thy will, while I am
waiting, yielded and still." In our society the phrase "He had his way
with her" has hostile sexual connotations. To be passive clay molded by a
powerful deity, to have human life portrayed as "waiting, yielded and
still," sounds like it is a human calling to be a pious victim.
This mentality is present in the collect for Ash Wednesday where we define
ourselves as those who worthily lament our sins and acknowledge our
wretchedness.
In our service of Holy Baptism we proclaim that this wondrous newborn
human life is actually corrupted by "Satan and the spiritual forces of
wickedness that rebel against God," under the sway of "the evil powers of
this world" and is filled "with the sinful desires of the flesh." In
earlier days the Church taught that an unbaptized child who died would
have no possibility of living in God's presence since the sinfulness of
that child's nature was unwashed and thus unforgiven. One cannot escape
the conclusion that Christian anthropology has defined human life
negatively. "There is no health in us," we say. If this is the nature of
human life, then clearly we need to be rescued by God. Jesus becomes the
means of this amazing grace that "saves a wretch like me."
Is this an adequate definition of human life or is this a form of
Christian pathology that has been imposed on human beings by an inadequate
theology of antiquity? Can such a theology escape its destructiveness?
Would any human enterprise designed to provide training for effective
parenting operate from this point of view? If modern parents told their
children daily that they were miserable sinners, fallen creatures, lost,
hopeless victims who could do nothing except await a parental rescue
effort, would that rhetoric produce healthy children who would become
healthy adults? Would we not see that parenting advice as destructive,
sick and pathological? But has that not been the Church's primary
definition of our humanity? Is it any less destructive or less
pathological if it is done in the name of a God called Father?
Immediately people retort, "But surely you do not mean to suggest that
human beings are not evil, that sin is not real, or that we are not
capable of depraved acts? Have you forgotten," they say, "about those
teenage thugs who beat and murder elderly women while stealing purses on
the streets of our urban centers? Do you not remember the holocaust? Or
ethnic cleansing? Have you never viewed the instruments of torture on
display in the Tower of London? Have you forgotten the abuse of children
first and later of women in the sweatshops of the Industrial Revolution?
Do you not recognize that human beings have persecuted, enslaved,
discriminated against and even cannibalized one another throughout
history? Have you so quickly adjusted to the death of James Byrd, dragged
behind a pickup truck on a gravel road until he died, simply because he
was black, or Matthew Shepard, beaten and tied to a fence post to die in a
sub-freezing Wyoming winter simply because he was a homosexual man?
Surely," they say, "you don't mean to minimize human evil or to suggest
that sin is not real?"
These are proper inquiries but be assured that I do not approach this
subject of Christian anthropology as a naive advocate of an innate human
goodness. I am never surprised at the human capacity for evil. I am,
however, now convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the traditional
explanations offered by Christian theology to interpret human life as
fallen and thus predisposed to evil is not just an inadequate
anthropology, but it is hopelessly flawed, pathologically distorted, wrong
and it therefore must be abandoned.
Let me put it boldly. Human Beings are not born in sin! The Church's
understanding of the fall of human life from the perfection of creation to
a state called original sin is pre-modern mythology and post-modern
nonsense. This means that theological doctrines based on this view of sin
which includes the image of Jesus as the rescuer, the sacrifice, the one
who died for our sins are doomed. The old myth no longer works for us
because it is not true. Nor can a Church that derives its power from
trafficking in this institutionally imposed sense of depravity and guilt
long endure.
In 1859 Charles Darwin published The Origin of the Species in which a
radically different understanding of human life was proposed. Darwin
presented us with a view of life in which there was no perfect creation
that God could pronounce good and thus no fall from this good creation
into a state of sin. Instead, he suggested that the creation is not yet
finished. It is still evolving and still expanding. So we are not fallen
creatures, we are evolving creatures, a work still in progress. We have
emerged out of billions of years of evolutionary history in which the
struggle to survive was intense. Human beings are the winners in that
struggle. The price of that victory has been to become radically
self-centered, to be the bearers of what Richard Dawkins calls "the
selfish gene." That is what has shaped our consciousness. It is our
unfinished struggle to overcome this trauma of our past that we have
mistakenly identified as a fall into sin, and for which we have yearned
for deliverance. But deliverance will come only as our humanity is
empowered to move beyond its fears, its tribal boundaries, its defining
prejudices and its evolutionary past. Salvation thus can never be a rescue
from a fall which never occurred, nor can it be a restoration to something
we have never been. It is rather a call to move beyond our limits. It is
discovering the power to enter a new spirituality, to taste a new
transcendence, to possess, in the words of Paul Tillich, "a new being."
This anthropology will inevitably require a new definition of God, a new
understanding of the role of Christ as Savior, a newly restructured
religious institution, new liturgical expressions, and a new understanding
of priesthood. In a word, it will require a radical reformation that will
create what will appear to be a new definition of human life. It will mean
we can no longer talk about Jesus as the one who died for our sins"
Spong
.
|
|
|
| User: "Read The Bible" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
24 Apr 2007 06:49:48 AM |
|
|
KlugeHans posted:
Christian anthropology assesses human nature as
evil, broken, fallen
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).
"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"
(1 Timothy 1:15).
"This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed
for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28).
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should
not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent
not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that the world through him might be saved. He that
believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
believeth not is condemned already, because he hath
not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of
God. And this is the condemnation, that light is
come into the world, and men loved darkness rather
than light, because their deeds were evil. For every
one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh
to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But
he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his
deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in
God" (John 3:16-21).
KlugeHans posted:
...the power to enter a new spirituality
"In the latter times some shall depart from the
faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines
of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1).
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into
an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if
his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of
righteousness; whose end shall be according to their
works" (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
KlugeHans posted:
...we can no longer talk about Jesus as the one who
died for our sins
"Brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I
preached unto you, which also ye have received, and
wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye
keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye
have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first
of all that which I also received, how that Christ
died for our sins according to the scriptures; and
that he was buried, and that he rose again the third
day according to the scriptures"
(1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
"Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver
us from this present evil world, according to the
will of God and our Father: to whom be glory for ever
and ever. Amen. I marvel that ye are so soon removed
from him that called you into the grace of Christ
unto another gospel: which is not another; but there
be some that trouble you, and would pervert the
gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from
heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that
which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man
preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have
received, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:4-9).
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of
season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all
longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come
when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after
their own lusts shall they heap to themselves
teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn
away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned
unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:2-4).
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples
indeed" (John 8:31).
"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish"
(Luke 13:3).
"Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to
cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him"
(Luke 12:5).
.
|
|
|
| User: "KlugeHans" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
24 Apr 2007 10:03:15 PM |
|
|
In article <1177415388.119320.7850@t39g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Read The
Bible <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).
"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"
(1 Timothy 1:15).
"This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed
for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28).
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should
not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent
not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that the world through him might be saved. He that
believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
believeth not is condemned already, because he hath
not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of
God. And this is the condemnation, that light is
come into the world, and men loved darkness rather
than light, because their deeds were evil. For every
one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh
to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But
he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his
deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in
God" (John 3:16-21).
Quote
"In my studies I have come to the conclusion that this language, "Jesus
died for my sins," is a violent distortion of the meaning of Jesus. It
offers me a God who is sadistic and bloodthirsty. A God whose will is
served by a human sacrifice is not a God I would ever be drawn to worship.
It is rather a grotesque idea. Yet this concept has become so normative in
the way that our faith story is told that many people seem to feel that if
this understanding of the saving work of Jesus is not accepted, then there
is nothing of substance left to Christianity.
I am convinced, however, that exactly the opposite is true. To me it is
obvious that unless we expose the barbaric quality of this ancient
interpretation of the meaning of Jesus' death and of the God who was said
to have required it and remove this spiritual monstrosity from the
Christian enterprise then Christianity has no future. I do not believe
that modern men and women will ever find appealing a God whose will is
served by the human sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
If Christianity requires this view of the meaning of Jesus' death, I, for
one would no longer choose this household of faith. But because of its
entrenched nature, passive opposition will never be effective. Indeed,
this idea must be agressively dislodged or nothing new and more appealing
will ever emerge. That is why the Christian Church today requires, I
believe, a new and mighty reformation that must not stop until it has
examined and reformulated the most basic core doctrines of the Christian
faith. The Reformation of the 16th Century stopped short of this task and
made, we see in retrospect, only cosmetic changes. This new reformation
must shake the very foundations of traditional Christian thinking. It will
inevitably create enormous fear and anxiety in conservative religious
circles and it will elicit the kind of anger that always arises when an
ultimate threat is posed to a dying belief system. But we must nonetheless
welcome it, for it offers the only chance that the faith of our fathers
and mothers will live to be the faith of our children and grandchildren.
The view of Jesus' death as a sacrifice for the sins of the world, in my
opinion, represents bad theology designed to accommodate the bad
anthropology on which it is based.
Human life was not created good only to fall into sin, necessitating a
divine rescue that culminated on the cross of Calvary, as the traditional
Christian myth asserts. Human life rather has evolved through millions of
years of evolutionary history leaving us not just incomplete, but
distorted by that struggle to survive. We are not fallen angels, but
emerging beings. We are a work in progress, constantly victimized by the
unfinished nature of our humanity. We cannot, therefore, be rescued by a
sacrificial death of one who was making the perfect offering to an
offended Deity designed to restore us to what we have never been. We must
rather be called by the gift of love to journey into a higher
consciousness, a new and more complete humanity. The savior figure cannot
be for us one who pays the price for the sins of our life. A savior for
our understanding of humanity must instead be one who is capable of
empowering us to grow beyond our limits, to escape our distorting fears,
our blinding prejudices and our killing stereotypes and to bring us to a
place where we discover the freedom to give our lives away in love to
others. The ultimate theological question driving the new reformation is
whether or not we can strip away from Jesus this traditional interpretive
explanation without destroying the experience that people had with this
Jesus that caused them to exclaim that in him the holiness of God had been
encountered.
To do this we have to set aside the mythological framework that has
captured Jesus. Virgin births and cosmic ascensions must be seen as
nothing more than pre-modern interpretive language. Walking on water and
feeding the 5000 with five loaves cannot be literal stories. Resurrection
understood as physical resuscitation will have to be seen as the late
developing tradition that it was. But once this mythological framework is
removed, Jesus does not disappear or simply become a good teacher, as many
seem to fear. Instead a Jesus emerges as a channel for transcendence, a
person at one with the source of life, the revealer of the source of love,
a new being who makes plain the Ground of all Being. He is a God presence,
not a mythological god-man; a complete human being who becomes the life
through which the full power of God's divine reality can emerge in human
history.
Instead of looking at literalized interpretive miracles, we must begin to
look rather at the one whose wholeness called his followers beyond the
limits of their tribal identity. The Jews, who thought Gentiles were unfit
for human relationships, felt compelled by who Jesus was to go into that
Gentile world to proclaim the Gospel, and they did. The religious purists
who were convinced that the Samaritans, the primary object of their
prejudice, were rejected by God and were therefore rejectable, were
transformed by this Jesus. He taught them that when Samaritans obey the
call of the Torah to be compassionate and caring, they are more fully
children of Abraham than are a priest and a Levite who were willing to
pass the victims of life by the other side of the road.
The strict keepers of the rules about who was clean and unclean were
confronted by a Jesus who embraced the leper, allowed the touch of the
woman with the chronic menstrual flow, and refused to judge the person
taken of adultery.
God was in this Christ. That was the experience which cried out for
explanation. Yet the explanations of history were couched in assumptions
we can no longer make. These assumptions were shaped by a world view that
we no longer share. They reflected an understanding of reality that is not
ours and a worship tradition that is foreign to our own.
First century Jewish-Christians understood Jesus' death after the analogy
of the Passover lamb, slaughtered to break open the power of death. Next
they viewed him as the new lamb of Yom Kippur, sacrificed to take away the
sins of the world. They were weaving around Jesus their liturgical symbols
of antiquity, but none of these symbols will work for us. Indeed, they are
repellant. So we must be prepared to lay them aside, to treat them as the
limited and ultimately falsifying explanations that they are. Jesus did
not die for our sins! Jesus was not a sacrifice offered to God to overcome
the fall that never happened. We are emerging creatures, not fallen
creatures. Jesus was not the embodiment of the theistic deity who visited
this planet in human disguise for a brief thirty years. Jesus was the one,
in whom the God who is present in the depths of life, emerged in human
history in a dramatic and complete new way. The task of the new
reformation is to separate Jesus from this distorting material and to
recast him in new images.
But we must never lose the experience. God was in Christ. The transcendent
power of life, the eternal fountain of love, the ineffable Ground of All
Being erupted in his whole and free humanity to call us into a new
consciousness. The call of this Christ is a call to move beyond the
evolutionary limits set by our quest for survival. The Holy Spirit of God
who was so present in Jesus, that people said that the Spirit actually
conceived him, is still his gift to give to each of us. We who are in
Christ can, like Christ, become God bearers in our world, new incarnations
of the eternal divine presence. We can reveal the source of life and love,
which calls us and others into the fullness of our being.
That is an avenue through which we can speak of Christ in our time, and
that is where the coming reformation might lead us. For the Christian
Church to cling to the literalized formulas of yesterday is nothing less
than to pursue the pathway of death. Abandoning those formulas to enter
the Christ experience anew is the hope of the future.
I pray for the arrival of this reformation, even though I recognize that
it will appear to many to be destroying what they think the Christian
faith is. We must not fear that, for it will also lead us to revival and
resurrection and give us the ability to sing the Lord's song in the third
millennium.
SPONG
.
|
|
|
| User: "Read The Bible" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
26 Apr 2007 04:23:33 AM |
|
|
KlugeHans quoted on Apr 24, 8:03 pm:
A God whose will is served by a human sacrifice
"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was
bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our
peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are
healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have
turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath
laid on him the iniquity of us all.
|
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened
not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the
slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is
dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from
prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his
generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the
living: for the transgression of my people was he
stricken.
|
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the
rich in his death; because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased
the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief;
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his
hand.
|
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall
be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous
servant justify many; for he shall bear their
iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion
with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with
the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto
death: and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession
for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:5-12).
"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and
of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he
cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and
offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou
prepared me: in burnt offerings and sacrifices for
sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I
come (in the volume of the book it is written of
me,) to do thy will, O God.
|
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt
offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not,
neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by
the law; then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O
God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish
the second. By the which will we are sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once
for all.
|
And every priest standeth daily ministering and
offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can
never take away sins: but this man, after he had
offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on
the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till
his enemies be made his footstool. For by one
offering he hath perfected for ever them that are
sanctified.
|
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for
after that he had said before, This is the covenant
that I will make with them after those days, saith
the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and
in their minds will I write them; and their sins and
iniquities will I remember no more. Now where
remission of these is, there is no more offering for
sin.
|
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into
the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and
living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through
the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an
high priest over the house of God; let us draw near
with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having
our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our
bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the
profession of our faith without wavering"
(Hebrews 10:4-23).
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should
not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent
not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that the world through him might be saved. He that
believeth on him is not condemned: but he that
believeth not is condemned already, because he hath
not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of
God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come
into the world, and men loved darkness rather than
light, because their deeds were evil. For every one
that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to
the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he
that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds
may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God"
(John 3:16-21).
"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and
walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but
if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we
have fellowship one with another, and the blood of
Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we
say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and
the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is
faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to
cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that
we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word
is not in us" (1 John 1:6-10).
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples
indeed" (John 8:31).
KlugeHans quoted:
Jesus was not the embodiment of the theistic deity
"Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought
it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself
of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and
being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
and became obedient unto death, even the death of the
cross" (Philippians 2:5-8).
"The Word was God" (John 1:1); "And the Word was made
flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). "God was
manifest in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16). "Unto the
Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever"
(Hebrews 1:8).
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
25 Apr 2007 08:12:26 AM |
|
|
these posts are way too long, and merlin bets say nothing.
.
|
|
|
| User: "KlugeHans" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
25 Apr 2007 05:06:16 PM |
|
|
In article <1177506746.562918.132750@o40g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
merlinator@gmail.com wrote:
these posts are way too long, and merlin bets say nothing.
Quite agree
When the religious fanatics round here cut the drivel the posts will be shorter
Or perhaps non existent
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Gabriel" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
25 Apr 2007 06:52:12 PM |
|
|
On Apr 23, 6:10 pm, (KlugeHans) wrote:
This mentality is present in the collect for Ash Wednesday where we define
ourselves as those who worthily lament our sins and acknowledge our
wretchedness.
You're referring to Catholicism. That religion is blasphemous to God,
as is clearly pointed out in numerous places in the Bible. Many man-
made religions are blasphemous by adding to or taking away from what
the Word of God says. Even the Pharisees put in their own man-made
rules, with Jesus right there to tell them otherwise.
Is this an adequate definition of human life or is this a form of
Christian pathology that has been imposed on human beings by an inadequate
theology of antiquity? Can such a theology escape its destructiveness?
You need to ask God this question. It's His Word that clearly outlines
all of this. So you need to tell Him you reject what he says, and
you're going to reject Him as well. It's clearly stated:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
And even putting aside being born into sin. There is no one that is so
perfect to have never even broken one of the 10 commandments.
And in terms of baptism:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
that believeth not shall be damned.
This is the Word of God. If you think this is an inadequate definition
of human life, please take it up with God. Meanwhile, the rest of us
continue to worship, love and follow God and His Word. After all, He
is the one that created all of us.
Would any human enterprise designed to provide training for effective
parenting operate from this point of view?
To compare the divine will of God to human enterprise is a joke at
best. If that's how you try to validate the worthiness of God's
wisdom, I don't know what to tell you.
I am,
however, now convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the traditional
explanations offered by Christian theology to interpret human life as
fallen and thus predisposed to evil is not just an inadequate
anthropology, but it is hopelessly flawed, pathologically distorted, wrong
and it therefore must be abandoned.
Take it up with God and His word in the Bible. Many religions add to
what's in the Bible and change the rules, but the perfect word of God
is quite clear on all of this. You may choose to abandon God, as many
people unfortunately do. But realize the only thing you are professing
is to abandon the Word of God - the One you created you.
Let me put it boldly. Human Beings are not born in sin!
So God is a liar and the Bible a book of lies, and Jesus suffered and
died for nothing?
In 1859 Charles Darwin published The Origin of the Species in which a
radically different understanding of human life was proposed.
You're going to uphold the word of a mere human being, created by God,
over what God Himself says? That is bold.
What you propose is really a version of you not believing in God, and
calling God a liar.
This anthropology will inevitably require a new definition of God, a new
understanding of the role of Christ as Savior, a newly restructured
religious institution, new liturgical expressions, and a new understanding
of priesthood. In a word, it will require a radical reformation that will
create what will appear to be a new definition of human life. It will mean
we can no longer talk about Jesus as the one who died for our sins"
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as
God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image
made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
creeping things.
Well that is flat out blasphemy. To say the son of God suffered and
died for nothing. Nothing could be further from the truth. The penalty
for sinning against a Holy God, being born into sin, not to mention
the sin you've no doubt performed since being born, is death:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
But Jesus Christ, the Son of God, suffered and died and rose from the
dead to save us all from the punishment for our sins. Jesus took that
punishment.
I would think twice before changing the glory of the incorruptible God
into an image made like corruptible man.
Praise the Lord!
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "KlugeHans" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
23 Apr 2007 03:17:52 AM |
|
|
In article <1177315253.640438.93330@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Read
The Bible <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the
earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate
affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness,
which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath
of God cometh on the children of disobedience"
(Colossians 3:5-6).
Maybe you could chat with Olympiada about this
I don't have the first idea what you are going on about or what you have
been up to to have all this guilt
Do tell
Maybe JW could use it in his next novel
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "The_Sage" |
|
| Title: Re: Christians want the world to end? |
23 Apr 2007 09:56:01 PM |
|
|
Reply to article by: (KlugeHans)
Date written: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:31:30 +1000
MsgID:<Clever-Hans-2304071731300001@192.168.0.3>
"Faith may include a sacrificium intellectus (provided that there is an
intellect to sacrifice), but certainly not a sacrifice of feeling. In this way
the faithful remain children instead of becoming as children, and they do not
gain their life because they have not lost it" (The Portable Jung, Eastern and
Western Thinking, pg 483)
"As I have indicated above, history shows that directed thinking was not always
as developed as it is today. The clearest expression of directed thinking is
science and the techniques fostered by it...The psychologist should accept this
view without qualification. The Dionysian phallogogies, the chthonic mysteries
of classical Athens, have vanished from our civilization, and the theriomorphic
representations of the gods have dwindled to mere vestiges, like the Dove, the
Lamb, and the ***** adorning our church towers. Yet all of this does not alter
the fact that in childhood we go through a phase when archaic thinking and
feeling once more rise up in us...as our bodies still retain vestiges of
obsolete functions and conditions in many of their organs, so our minds, which
have apparently outgrown those archaic impulses, still bear the marks of the
evolutionary stages we have traversed, and re-echo the dim bygone in dreams and
fantasies" (Collected Works of Jung, Vol 5, para 21,36)
"...the psyche has attained its present complexity by a series of acts of
introjection. Its complexity has increased in proportion to the
despiritualization of nature. An alluring nixie from the dim bygone is today
called an 'erotic fantasy'...The witch has not ceased to mix her vile potions of
love and death; her magic poison has been refined into intrigue and
self-deception, unseen though none the less dangerous for that" (Collected Works
of Jung, Vol 9i, para 54)
The Sage
=============================================================
http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in
one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you
dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why
I dismiss yours" (Stephen F. Roberts)
=============================================================
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
