Re: Church Fathers -or- the Bible??

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"John"
Date:	26 May 2004 07:36:43 AM
Object:	Re: Church Fathers -or- the Bible??

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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"Cindy" <Truth@nospam.com> wrote in message
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"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own
master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able
to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than
another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be
fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as
special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord,
for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the
Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself
alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live
to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live
or die, we belong to the Lord.

So in your theology you believe:

No, I never said anything of the sort. It is clear that the New
Testament does not allow these things. However, Romans 14:5-6 clearly
says that people should make up their own minds about keeping the
sabbath.

You can have other God's before the true one if you do it to the
Lord?

Please see Mark 12:29-30, and Matthew 4:10.

You can make and bow down to idols if you do it to the Lord?

Please see Acts 15:20, and 1 John 5:21.

You can take the Lord's name in vain if you do it to the Lord?

Please see 1 Timothy 6:1, and Ephesians 4:29.

You can dishonour your parents if you do it to the Lord?

Please see Ephesians 6:1-2,

You can kill if you do it to the Lord?

Please see Romans 13:9, and 1 John 3:15.

You can commit adultery if you do it to the Lord?

Please see Romans 13:9, and Hebrews 13:4.

You can kill if you do it to the Lord?

We already covered this one, but please see Romans 13:9, and 1 John 3:15.

You can lie if you do it to the Lord?

Please see Colossians 3:9, and Romans 13:9.

You can Covet what doesn't belong to you if you do it to the Lord?

Please see Ephesians 5:5, and Romans 13:9.

Or do you just mean you just want to forget the Sabbath, the Only
Commandment where the Lord specifically commanded us to Remember, and
never changed?

1. Who did the Lord command to remember the sabbath, and why?

Exodus 31:12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the
Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign
between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know
that I am the LORD , who makes you holy.
14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who
desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that
day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be
done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD
. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16
The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the
generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign
between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD
made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained
from work and rested.' "

The LORD said in Exodus 31:13,16,17 that the Israelites are to keep
the sabbath. It also says in many other places that the Israelites
have to keep the sabbath. It doesn't say anywhere in the New Testament
that Christians have to keep the sabbath. If it did, you would have
pointed it out by now.

2. Did the LORD never change the sabbath?

Please read Amos 8:

Amos 8:4 Hear this, you who trample the needy and do away with the
poor of the land, 5 saying, "When will the New Moon be over that we
may sell grain, and the Sabbath be ended that we may market
wheat?"- skimping the measure, boosting the price and cheating with
dishonest scales,

The people asked "When will the sabbath be ended?" The LORD answered:

Amos 8:9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD , "I will make
the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.

Now we need to find out which day this happened.

Matthew 27:45 From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness
came over all the land.

The sixth hour is noon.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the
uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with
Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written
code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood
opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And
having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public
spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

That's right, the sabbath was ended when Christ died on the cross.
The LORD said in Amos 8:9 that on the day He ended the sabbath, he
would make the earth dark in broad daylight. And that is exactly what
He did on the day Christ died. The Bible confirms this in Colossians
2:14 that the Old Testament Law has been nailed to the cross.

Well that is your choice.

The Lord speaking from Sinai:
... I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation]
of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that
love me, and keep my commandments. Exd 20: 5- 6

That would be the covenant from Mount Sinai, which Paul wrote about
in Galatians 4.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you
not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham
had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free
woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way;
but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

It is true that no one is saved by lawkeeping.
But by faith, the promise was to Abraham based on faith.

24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent
two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children
who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount
Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem,
because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem
that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

No one is arguing that we must keep the law as a way of salvation.
But faith in Christ does not do away with the law.
It serves it's purpose to point out sin.
The bondage of Hagar is one of salvation by works
as opposed by Sarai which repesents salvation through faith.
That said, faith does not do away with the law.
Jesus said himself:
Matt 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not
come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven
and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the
law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of
these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom
of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in
the kingdom of heaven.
NKJV

"Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and
cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the
children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At
that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born
by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does
the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the
slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free
woman's son." 31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the
slave woman, but of the free woman.

The slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the
free woman's son. If you desire to be under the law, then you do
not belong to the Jerusalem above which is free.

Here is yet another place where the New Testament states that Jesus
Christ did away with the Old Covenant Law. See Ephesians 2:15.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are
Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call
themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands
of men)-- 12 remember that at that time you were separate from
Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the
covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the
world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have
been brought near through the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has
destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by
abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and
regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out
of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile
both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death
their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far
away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both
have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Christ fulfilled all the ceremonial aspects of the law, as they were a
shadow
or type of Christ.
Many have twisted the words of Paul, but he was very clear:
1 Cor 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the
commandments of God is what matters.
NKJV

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but
fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with
Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole
building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in
the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become
a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

You are confusing the covenant with the law of the covenant.
If there is no law, then all sin is legal.
We are free to kill, steal, whatever.
Nobody is suggesting that salvation is by works of the law.
But Jesus clearly stated:
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
NKJV
Faith in Christ does not free you to disobediance.
Rom 6:1-2
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
KJV
Rom 6:15
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under
grace? God forbid.
KJV
Rom 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish
the law.
KJV
What is sin?
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the
transgression of the law.
KJV
Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were
held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the
oldness of the letter.
NKJV
Will the Spirit lead us to break God's law?
Rom 8:1-4
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For
the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law
of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak
through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful
flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the
righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk
according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
NKJV
The question is, 'do you love Jesus'? Are you willing to submit to His will?
To glorify Him in all that you do? Those who love him obey him.
Not because it saves them, but because they have appreciated His sacrifice,
they have been been moved in their heart, they have died to sin, and now
have
been raised in newness of life to serve Christ, not in the letter, but
in the Spirit.
(we can do nothing of ourselves, only through God's empowerment through the
Holy Spirit)
The problem with so many Christians today is that they are egocentric.
Coming to Jesus is all about THEIR salvation and their success.
Their selfish motives. Rather then in response to the great free gift of
grace ,
the great sacrifice of Christ for us.
2 Cor 5:13-15
13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound
mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge
thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that
those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died
for them and rose again.
NKJV
Jesus asks us to pick up our cross and follow Him.
To deny ourselves.
Rev 14:12-13
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the
commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
NKJV
God Bless,
John
.

User: "Katrina Bloomfield"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	26 May 2004 05:56:47 PM

"John" <John@NoSpam.com> wrote:

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote:

Galatians 4:24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the
women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai
and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now
Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the
present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her
children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she
is our mother. 27 For it is written:

I'm glad you pointed that out, John.

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the
two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of
hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its
commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in
himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and
in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the
cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and
preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who
were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father
by one Spirit.

Christ fulfilled all the ceremonial aspects of the law, as they were
a shadow or type of Christ.

Now let's go back to where you quoted Jesus Christ, in Matthew 5:18.
Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass
away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till
all is fulfilled.
Jesus Christ said that "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass
from the law till all is fulfilled". You must believe this, as you
quoted it. What did Jesus say? He said that *not even the tiniest part
of the law would pass away*, until something happened. What was that
something? It was until *all the law is fulfilled*. Now you are saying
that Jesus Christ only fulfilled *part* of the law, namely "the
ceremonial aspects of the law". In Matthew 5:17, Jesus said that he
came to fulfill. So did He do it, or didn't He?
Now I ask you, how can you claim that Jesus only fulfilled *part* of
the law? If He did that, then *no part of the law could pass away*.
That's right, until *all is fulfilled, one jot or one tittle will by no
means pass from the law*.
Which is it John? Did Jesus Christ fulfill *all of the law*, and did
*all of the law pass away*? Or did Jesus Christ fulfill *part of the
law*, and therefore *all of the law is still in effect*?

If there is no law, then all sin is legal.
We are free to kill, steal, whatever.

Are we? Didn't you hear that Jesus Christ said this?
Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have
them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Really John, given what Jesus said, do you honestly believe you are
free to kill, steal, whatever? Or are you just being silly?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all
your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This
is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like
it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
John, do you honestly believe that killing, stealing, whatever, fits
in with what Jesus Christ commanded, that you love your neighbour as
yourself? I strongly suggest that you go and read Matthew 5, 6, and 7.
Read those chapters, and then come back and answer this question,
John. Are we "free to kill, steal, whatever"?

Nobody is suggesting that salvation is by works of the law.
But Jesus clearly stated:
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
NKJV

It was the Apostle John who wrote that. Let's see what else he wrote
about it:
1 John 3:21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have
confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask,
because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this
is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ,
and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his
commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that
he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Tell me John, when you read Jesus Christ saying "If you love Me, keep
My commandments", why do you think he meant the Ten Commandments? Why
don't you think he meant what he actually said?
John 15:9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now
remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in
my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in
his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and
that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each
other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this,
that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if
you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a
servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called
you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have
made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and
appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the
Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my
command: Love each other.
This is Jesus Christ's commandment: LOVE EACH OTHER.
.

User: "John"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	27 May 2004 07:09:02 AM

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5a58f345.0405261456.3e857bf9@posting.google.com...

"John" <John@NoSpam.com> wrote:

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote:

not

come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till

heaven

and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from

the

law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least

these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the

kingdom

of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great

the kingdom of heaven.
NKJV

I'm glad you pointed that out, John.

Christ fulfilled all the ceremonial aspects of the law, as they were
a shadow or type of Christ.

Fulfilled or destroyed? Are they the same?
Has all been fulfilled? The Law and the Prophets are not just
the 10 commandments, they repesent all OT scripture.
Has all been fulfilled?

Now I ask you, how can you claim that Jesus only fulfilled *part* of
the law? If He did that, then *no part of the law could pass away*.
That's right, until *all is fulfilled, one jot or one tittle will by no
means pass from the law*.

Jesus also said this
Matt 5:19
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and
teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever
does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
NKJV
When Jesus spoke to the young ruler, what did He say?
Matt 19:16-19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing
shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you
call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter
into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus
said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall
not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19'Honor your father and
your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
NKJV

Which is it John? Did Jesus Christ fulfill *all of the law*, and did
*all of the law pass away*? Or did Jesus Christ fulfill *part of the
law*, and therefore *all of the law is still in effect*?

You tell me, what was fulfilled? Did Jesus come back yet?

If there is no law, then all sin is legal.
We are free to kill, steal, whatever.

And where did those commands originate?
Where they new commands Jesus just now at
that point came up with?
Deut 6:5
5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul,
and with all your strength.
NKJV
Lev 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of
your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
NKJV

John, do you honestly believe that killing, stealing, whatever, fits
in with what Jesus Christ commanded, that you love your neighbour as
yourself? I strongly suggest that you go and read Matthew 5, 6, and 7.
Read those chapters, and then come back and answer this question,
John. Are we "free to kill, steal, whatever"?

Please, don't be foolish. What law do you fulfill when you love God and love
your neighbor?
Rom 13:9-10
9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not
murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You
shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up
in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love
does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
NKJV
Love is not just a fleeting feeling.

Nobody is suggesting that salvation is by works of the law.
But Jesus clearly stated:
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
NKJV

What did he actually say? Jesus did not teach contrary to God's law.
If He had He would have been a sinner.
Jesus wrote the 10 commandments with His own finger, they are His commands.
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the
transgression of the law.
KJV

John 15:9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now
remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in
my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in
his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and
that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each
other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this,
that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if
you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a
servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called
you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have
made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and
appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the
Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my
command: Love each other.

This is Jesus Christ's commandment: LOVE EACH OTHER.

So if you have feelings of love you are obeying Christ?
The Love God is talking about is more then sentimental feelings.
It involves self-sacrificing action. Does it include a heart
rendering? Of course. I don't mean to imply that by just
keeping the 10 commandments you can love God.
If that were the case even the unconverted could do so.
The Pharisee's kept the commandments outwardly.
But they did not love God nor were they led by the Spirit.
Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails
anything, but faith working through love.
NKJV
Love is the motivating force.
I'm not sure why you have a problem with obeying God's commands?
As David said:
Ps 40:8
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart."
NKJV
Obedience to God should be a delight. Unless of course you
have a lack of faith and still believe that you are saved by your works.
Salvation is by Grace through faith alone. But those who truly
believe respond to this great gift from a heart of love and appreciation.
They are moved or compeled by love:
2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One
died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live
should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose
again.
NKJV
This love compels us to submit to God's will in our lives, to obey His
commands.
Not of our own strength or power, but because we are empowered by the Holy
Spirit.
Our motive is now to Glorify God in all that we do.
To see Him wear His crown.
It's true, if you Love God and your neighbor you wouldn't
do to them what is forbidden in the 10 commandments.
.

User: "Katrina Bloomfield"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	27 May 2004 08:07:13 PM

"John" <John@NoSpam.com> wrote:

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote:

"John" <John@NoSpam.com> wrote:

No one is arguing that we must keep the law as a way of
salvation. But faith in Christ does not do away with the law.

Galatians 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by
the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law
was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified
by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the
supervision of the law.

Fulfilled or destroyed? Are they the same?
Has all been fulfilled? The Law and the Prophets are not just
the 10 commandments, they repesent all OT scripture.
Has all been fulfilled?

You know that unless it has all been fulfilled, then not even the
smallest part of the law can pass away (Matthew 5:18). So, you claim
to keep part of the Old Testament Law. Do you keep *all* of the Old
Testament Law? Are you aware of the results if you keep part of the
Old Testament Law but not all of the OT law? Have you read Deuteronomy
11:26-28?
Deuteronomy 11:26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and
a curse- 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your
God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the
commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command
you today by following other gods, which you have not known.
The commands of the LORD which Moses gave to Israel on that day fill
the whole book of Deuteronomy. Do you keep all those commandments?
Has all been fulfilled? Ask Jesus:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was
still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about
me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

What comes directly after that in the Bible? Jesus speaks many
commandments.

When Jesus spoke to the young ruler, what did He say?
Matt 19:16-19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing
shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you
call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter
into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus
said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall
not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19'Honor your father and
your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
NKJV

What comes directly after that in the Bible?
Matthew 19:20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have
kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him,
"If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the
poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away
sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
So tell me John, what good thing shall YOU do that you may have
eternal life? Keep the commandments, maybe? Is that what you believe,
that if YOU DO A GOOD THING, then you can have ETERNAL LIFE?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and
that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest
anyone should boast.
Do you really believe that Jesus was saying that if you keep the
commandments, you can have eternal life?

Which is it John? Did Jesus Christ fulfill *all of the law*, and
did *all of the law pass away*? Or did Jesus Christ fulfill *part
of the law*, and therefore *all of the law is still in effect*?

You tell me, what was fulfilled? Did Jesus come back yet?

You're the one who claims to be under the law. I'm not under the law,
so it doesn't matter to me. If you are under the law, and you're only
keeping part of the law, then you are cursed. And we all know that
only Jesus could successfully keep all of the law. How impressed do
you think He is going to be with your law-keeping on Judgement Day?

If there is no law, then all sin is legal. We are free to kill,
steal, whatever.

Yes, these commandments came from the Old Testament Law. Jesus told us
to obey them, so these commandments became part of New Testament Law.
Now if you would be so kind, please show me where Jesus commanded that
people keep the sabbath in the New Testament.

John, do you honestly believe that killing, stealing, whatever,
fits in with what Jesus Christ commanded, that you love your
neighbour as yourself? I strongly suggest that you go and read
Matthew 5, 6, and 7. Read those chapters, and then come back and
answer this question, John. Are we "free to kill, steal,
whatever"?

Please, don't be foolish.

You're telling ME not to be foolish? Did you read Matthew 5, 6, and 7?
You are the one who wrote:
"If there is no law, then all sin is legal. We are free to kill,
steal, whatever."
I was suggesting to you that there IS law. It's just NOT Old Testament
Law.

What law do you fulfill when you love God and love your neighbor?

God's law.

Rom 13:9-10
9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not
murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You
shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up
in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love
does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
NKJV

Love is not just a fleeting feeling.

You'll note that it says 'if there is any other commandment, all are
summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as
yourself."' Therefore, if you love your neighbour as you love
yourself, you have fulfilled the whole law, including keeping the
sabbath.

What did he actually say? Jesus did not teach contrary to God's law.
If He had He would have been a sinner.
Jesus wrote the 10 commandments with His own finger, they are His commands.

Please, produce a Bible quote which says that Jesus wrote the 10
commandments with His own finger.

So if you have feelings of love you are obeying Christ?
The Love God is talking about is more then sentimental feelings.

Who are you arguing with here? Jesus Christ said that His commandment
is to love each other. You are saying, "NO! He meant the 10
commandments!" Have a look for yourself, go and read from John 13:1 to
the end of John 16. It's all a big speech by Jesus, which seems to
have started with Jesus washing His disciples' feet, and continued as
they ate.You pick out John 14:15, where it says "if you love me, keep
my commandments", and you claim that it means "keep the 10
commandments". And yet, you ignore that in John 15, Jesus identifies
"love each other" as His commandment. You also ignore that Jesus said
this in John 13:34-35.
John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have
loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will
know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
If you want to go forward from John 14:15, you'll get to John 15:12 as
Jesus's commandment. If you want to go backwards from John 14:15,
you'll get to John 13:34-35 as His commandment. But no, you want to
skip straight back to Exodus 20, and call THAT His commandment. And as
proof, you claim that Jesus wrote the 10 commandments with His own
finger, without any Biblical evidence for that claim.

I'm not sure why you have a problem with obeying God's commands?

I don't. I have a problem with people adding commandments to God's New
Covenant. Where in the New Testament are Christians commanded to keep
the sabbath? NOWHERE. The New Testament *is* the New Covenant as
revealed to us by God. Do you have the right to add extra commandments
to what God commanded in the New Testament? I don't believe that you
do.
There are *many* commandments which the LORD made in the Old
Testament, do you keep them all? We both know you don't. For example,
do you keep all the feasts commanded in Leviticus 23? Suppose somebody
decides that they want to start a new church, and demands that their
church members keep all those feasts, and then they start condemning
Christians for not keeping those feasts. They can say things like "If
you don't keep those feasts, you're trampling on a holy commandment of
God!", and "Why do you have a problem with obeying God's commands?"
What would you do? Would you meekly submit and start keeping the
feasts commanded in Leviticus 23, or would you stand up and say "No,
I'm going to do what God actually asked me to do under the NEW
COVENANT!"?
.

User: "John"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	27 May 2004 10:26:52 PM

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5a58f345.0405271707.220c6f54@posting.google.com...

"John" <John@NoSpam.com> wrote:

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote:

"John" <John@NoSpam.com> wrote:

No one is arguing that we must keep the law as a way of
salvation. But faith in Christ does not do away with the law.

Fulfilled or destroyed? Are they the same?
Has all been fulfilled? The Law and the Prophets are not just
the 10 commandments, they repesent all OT scripture.
Has all been fulfilled?

I'm not under the Old Covenant. I'm not required to keep
the sacrificial system. But God does require that I do not sin.
And sin is transgression of the law. That is what defines sin.
All has not yet been fulfilled. Jesus has not yet returned.
But Jesus has fulfilled the sacrificial offering.
Jesus goes on to say and to bring out
the Spiritual nature of God's law.
Matt 5:21-22
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder,'
and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. 22 But I say to you
that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of
the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of
the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
NKJV
Matt 5:27-29
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit
adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for
her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 2
NKJV

Deuteronomy 11:26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and
a curse- 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your
God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the
commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command
you today by following other gods, which you have not known.

The commands of the LORD which Moses gave to Israel on that day fill
the whole book of Deuteronomy. Do you keep all those commandments?

Has all been fulfilled? Ask Jesus:

Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was
still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about
me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

He's speaking of the scriptues.

means pass from the law*.

The SCRIPTURES, the Law and the Prophets repesent the scrptures
and the law.
But Jesus clarified himself no more then a few verses as to what part of the
law He referred:
Matt 5:19-20
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and
teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever
does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20
For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness
of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of
heaven
NKJV
COMMANDMENTS, RIGHTEOUSNESS. This is defined by the 10 commandments.
Sacrificing a pigeon, or a goat or a lamb is not.
Did Paul do away with the word of God because he fulfilled it?
Col 1:24-25
25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which
was given to me for you, to FULFILL the word of God,
NKJV
Did Jesus do away with righteousness?
Matt 3:15
5 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it
is fitting for us to FULFILL all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
NKJV

What comes directly after that in the Bible? Jesus speaks many
commandments.

you

call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to

enter

into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?"

Jesus

said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You

shall

not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19'Honor your father

and

your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
NKJV

That was not my point. I have been steadfast that we are not saved by
lawkeeping. But this example showed that Jeus did not teach abrogation of
the law.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and
that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest
anyone should boast.

OH PLEASE! I know that, I knew you would try that.
You just couldn't wait to pull that one out could you?
So now you have judged me that I believe in Justification by works,
salvation by works?
Is that it? Because I love Jesus and delight to do His will and have His law
in my heart I'm a legalist, is that it?

Do you really believe that Jesus was saying that if you keep the
commandments, you can have eternal life?

What did I say repeatedly in my posts? What do you think.
I think you fear the law.

Which is it John? Did Jesus Christ fulfill *all of the law*, and
did *all of the law pass away*? Or did Jesus Christ fulfill *part
of the law*, and therefore *all of the law is still in effect*?

You tell me, what was fulfilled? Did Jesus come back yet?

You're the one who claims to be under the law. I'm not under the law,

I don't claim any such thing.

so it doesn't matter to me. If you are under the law, and you're only
keeping part of the law, then you are cursed.

You are really twisting God's word. That's a shame.
And we all know that

only Jesus could successfully keep all of the law. How impressed do
you think He is going to be with your law-keeping on Judgement Day?

Matt 7:21-23
1 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of
heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to
Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out
demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will
declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice
lawlessness!'
NKJV

If there is no law, then all sin is legal. We are free to kill,
steal, whatever.

And where did those commands originate?
Where they new commands Jesus just now at
that point came up with?
Deut 6:5
5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your

soul,

and with all your strength.
NKJV
Lev 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the

children of

your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the

LORD.

NKJV

John, do you honestly believe that killing, stealing, whatever,
fits in with what Jesus Christ commanded, that you love your
neighbour as yourself? I strongly suggest that you go and read
Matthew 5, 6, and 7. Read those chapters, and then come back and
answer this question, John. Are we "free to kill, steal,
whatever"?

Please, don't be foolish.

You're telling ME not to be foolish? Did you read Matthew 5, 6, and 7?
You are the one who wrote:

"If there is no law, then all sin is legal. We are free to kill,
steal, whatever."

And that is true. Without law there is no sin.

I was suggesting to you that there IS law. It's just NOT Old Testament
Law.

OHHHH I seee. I get it, there is 9 commandments then?
You would agree these are sins correct?
Coveting?
Lying about someone else in court; bearing false witness?
Stealing?
Committing adultery?
Murder?
Dis-honoring father and mother?
Take the Lord's name in vain?
Worship carved images?
Serve other God's?
You agree that these are all part of your new law, just not that one Jewish
4th commandment, that is the REAL crux of this.
BTW, Paul also taught and kept the 10 commandments:
Eph 6:1-4
6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 "Honor
your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise: 3
"that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."
NKJV

What law do you fulfill when you love God and love your neighbor?

God's law.

in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10

Love

does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the

law.

NKJV

Love is not just a fleeting feeling.

No, that is only talking about the "neighbor part"
the other law you left out, "Love God with all your heart soul and mind"

What did he actually say? Jesus did not teach contrary to God's law.
If He had He would have been a sinner.
Jesus wrote the 10 commandments with His own finger, they are His

commands.

Please, produce a Bible quote which says that Jesus wrote the 10
commandments with His own finger.

you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a
servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called
you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have
made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and
appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the
Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my
command: Love each other.

This is Jesus Christ's commandment: LOVE EACH OTHER.

So if you have feelings of love you are obeying Christ?
The Love God is talking about is more then sentimental feelings.

Who are you arguing with here? Jesus Christ said that His commandment
is to love each other.

James 2:7-11
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You
shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9 but if you show
partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is
guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do
not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have
become a transgressor of the law.
NKJV
You are saying, "NO! He meant the 10

commandments!" Have a look for yourself, go and read from John 13:1 to
the end of John 16. It's all a big speech by Jesus, which seems to
have started with Jesus washing His disciples' feet, and continued as
they ate.You pick out John 14:15, where it says "if you love me, keep
my commandments", and you claim that it means "keep the 10
commandments". And yet, you ignore that in John 15, Jesus identifies
"love each other" as His commandment. You also ignore that Jesus said
this in John 13:34-35.

That's right, love does no harm to his neighbor, love does not steal,
murder,
covet etc. Love isn't, "OHHHH I FEEL SO GOOD ABOUT YOU!"
James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does
not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and
destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace,
be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed
for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does
not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I
have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my
faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even
the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man,
that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by
works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith
was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it
was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of
God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith
only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she
received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body
without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
NKJV

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have
loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will
know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

If you want to go forward from John 14:15, you'll get to John 15:12 as
Jesus's commandment. If you want to go backwards from John 14:15,
you'll get to John 13:34-35 as His commandment. But no, you want to
skip straight back to Exodus 20, and call THAT His commandment. And as
proof, you claim that Jesus wrote the 10 commandments with His own
finger, without any Biblical evidence for that claim.

Those same commandments are given in Deuteronomy and Leviticus
so what are you are talking about?

I'm not sure why you have a problem with obeying God's commands?

You see I new it came down to this. You don't have a problem
with 9 of those commandments.
Did Jesus obey the Sabbath?
YES!
Can the Testament be changed after the Testator has died? NO!
So the Sunday Law was added after Jesus died.
Heb 9:16-17
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death
of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it
has no power at all while the testator lives.
NKJV
Jesus obeyed the Sabbath, He never changed it before He died.
Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all
that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the
Sabbath day and hallowed it.
NKJV
Notice this command goes back to creation.
Now look:
Gen 2:2-3
2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested
on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed
the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work
which God had created and made.
NKJV
SANCTIFIED=MAKE HOLY
When did God make the day Un-holy? Was Adam Jewish?

There are *many* commandments which the LORD made in the Old
Testament, do you keep them all? We both know you don't. For example,
do you keep all the feasts commanded in Leviticus 23? Suppose somebody
decides that they want to start a new church, and demands that their
church members keep all those feasts, and then they start condemning
Christians for not keeping those feasts. They can say things like "If
you don't keep those feasts, you're trampling on a holy commandment of
God!", and "Why do you have a problem with obeying God's commands?"
What would you do? Would you meekly submit and start keeping the
feasts commanded in Leviticus 23, or would you stand up and say "No,
I'm going to do what God actually asked me to do under the NEW
COVENANT!"?

No I don't, Jesus is the fulfillment of all the sacrificial system.
There is no reason to keep them when Jesus has shed His blood for sin.
It's as simple as that. The 10 commandments define sin, it's as simple as
that.
You want to make excuses.
I haven't condemned you for anything, your concise must be bothering you.
Heb 10:8-18
8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings
for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered
according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will,
O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that
will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus
Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the
same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He
had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of
God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says
the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will
write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will
remember no more." 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no
longer an offering for sin.
NKJV
.

User: "Katrina Bloomfield"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	28 May 2004 09:58:42 PM

"John" <John@NoSpam.com> wrote:

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote:

As you should know, unless it's all been fulfilled, then no part of
the law has passed away.
Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth
disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen,
will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is
accomplished.

COMMANDMENTS, RIGHTEOUSNESS. This is defined by the 10 commandments.
Sacrificing a pigeon, or a goat or a lamb is not.

Really? What does Leviticus 27:34 refer to? The 10 commandments?
Leviticus 27:34 These are the commandments, which the LORD
commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

That was not my point. I have been steadfast that we are not saved
by lawkeeping. But this example showed that Jeus did not teach
abrogation of the law.

This example showed that Jesus did not teach abrogation of at least
some of the law.

I was suggesting to you that there IS law. It's just NOT Old
Testament Law.

OHHHH I seee. I get it, there is 9 commandments then?

No, have you tried counting the commandments in the New Testament?
There are more than 9.

You would agree these are sins correct?
Coveting?
Lying about someone else in court; bearing false witness?
Stealing?
Committing adultery?
Murder?
Dis-honoring father and mother?
Take the Lord's name in vain?
Worship carved images?
Serve other God's?

If you want lists of sins under the New Testament, why not read the
lists that are in the New Testament? Please see Matthew 7:21-23,
Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 5:9-11, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11,
Ephesians 4:25-31, Ephesians 5:3-5, Colossians 3:5-9, 1 Timothy 6:3-5,
2 Timothy 3:1-5, 1 Peter 2:1, Revelation 9:20-21, Revelation 21:8,
Revelation 21:27.
You'll see that there is a lot more sin there than just breaking the
10 commandments. Please read those passages and compare with your list
above.

You agree that these are all part of your new law, just not that one
Jewish 4th commandment, that is the REAL crux of this.

The Bible says that the sabbath has been done away with. It was a
shadow of the body of Christ. Please see Colossians 2:16-17.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in
drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body
is of Christ.

BTW, Paul also taught and kept the 10 commandments:
Eph 6:1-4
6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2
"Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with
promise: 3 "that it may be well with you and you may live long on
the earth."
NKJV

That is only one commandment. Please show me where Paul taught any
Gentile to keep the sabbath.

If you want to go forward from John 14:15, you'll get to John
15:12 as Jesus's commandment. If you want to go backwards from
John 14:15, you'll get to John 13:34-35 as His commandment. But
no, you want to skip straight back to Exodus 20, and call THAT His
commandment. And as proof, you claim that Jesus wrote the 10
commandments with His own finger, without any Biblical evidence
for that claim.

Those same commandments are given in Deuteronomy and Leviticus so
what are you are talking about?

Really? I can't find this commandment in Deuteronomy or Leviticus,
and Jesus Christ said it's a new commandment.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
It's a new commandment, given by Jesus Christ, and it's not in
Deuteronomy or Leviticus. You might find something similar, but
not the same.

You see I new it came down to this. You don't have a problem
with 9 of those commandments.
Did Jesus obey the Sabbath?
YES!

Did Jesus keep all of the festivals in Leviticus 23? YES!

Can the Testament be changed after the Testator has died? NO!
So the Sunday Law was added after Jesus died.
Heb 9:16-17
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death
of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it
has no power at all while the testator lives.
NKJV

I think you meant to quote this from Galatians:
Galatians 3:15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday
life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that
has been duly established, so it is in this case.
As we agree, nothing can be added to the testament after Jesus died.
The Bible also says this:
Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose
names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain
from the foundation of the world.
Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus was
already killed before the world was created, before any people ever
lived. Therefore, His Covenant was already fully decided before that
time. By the way, there is no "Sunday Law". Check your Bible, nowhere
does it say that Christians must worship on Sunday.

Jesus obeyed the Sabbath, He never changed it before He died.

Jesus obeyed the Passover, He never changed it before He died. So, do
you keep the Passover feast, as commanded by God in Leviticus 23 and
Numbers 9:1-14? You already said that you don't. And indeed, you
shouldn't, because God said in Hosea 2:11 that all the feast days
(which you can find in Leviticus 23) would cease.

There are *many* commandments which the LORD made in the Old
Testament, do you keep them all? We both know you don't. For
example, do you keep all the feasts commanded in Leviticus 23?
Suppose somebody decides that they want to start a new church, and
demands that their church members keep all those feasts, and then
they start condemning Christians for not keeping those
feasts. They can say things like "If you don't keep those feasts,
you're trampling on a holy commandment of God!", and "Why do you
have a problem with obeying God's commands?" What would you do?
Would you meekly submit and start keeping the feasts commanded in
Leviticus 23, or would you stand up and say "No, I'm going to do
what God actually asked me to do under the NEW COVENANT!"?

No I don't, Jesus is the fulfillment of all the sacrificial system.
There is no reason to keep them when Jesus has shed His blood for
sin. It's as simple as that.

Also, God said in Hosea 2:11 that all the feasts in Leviticus 23 would
cease, so the Bible makes it clear that nobody has to keep any of
those feasts. Do you agree?

The 10 commandments define sin, it's as simple as that.

Not exactly. Please refer to the lists of sins in the New Testament
above. There are a lot of sins which wouldn't break any of the 10
commandments.

You want to make excuses. I haven't condemned you for anything,
your concise must be bothering you.

I'm not feeling condemned. If you're getting feelings of condemnation,
they're not coming from me.
Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and
those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of
disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David,
"Today," after such a long time, as it has been said:
"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward
have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for
the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself
also ceased from his works as God did from His.
.

User: "Andrew"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	28 May 2004 10:29:22 PM

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:5a58f345.0405281858.136999a6@posting.google.com...

Please show me where Paul taught any Gentile to keep the sabbath.

Those who give themselves to Jesus Christ become children of Abraham
in a spiritual sense and become part of *spiritual Israel* and therefore are
*the people of God* - the blessings of the Sabbath are for them.
"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's
seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Gal 3:29
"It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath."
~ Paul ~
Heb 4:9 (Lamsa)
.

User: "Katrina Bloomfield"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	30 May 2004 07:42:13 PM

"Andrew" <andrew.321remov@usa.net> wrote:

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote:

Please show me where Paul taught any Gentile to keep the sabbath.

Abraham was the father of Isaac (Genesis 25:19), who was the father of
Jacob (Genesis 25:26), who was renamed Israel (Genesis 32:28). Israel
was the father of the twelve who were the patriarchs of the twelve
tribes of Israel (Genesis 35:22-26). Here is a diagram:
Abraham
|
Isaac
|
Jacob (Israel)
|
Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin,
Dan, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher
Christians become children of Abraham, which puts them above the level
in the family tree at which they would be Israelites. Think about it,
was Abraham an Israelite? Was Isaac an Israelite? Of course they
weren't, Abraham was grandfather of Israel, who was father of the
Israelites. Isaac, one of Abraham's children, was grandfather of the
Israelites. Christians become children of Abraham in a spiritual
sense, and this is at the level where they would be "great uncles" of
Israel.

"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's
seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Gal 3:29

"It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath."
~ Paul ~

Heb 4:9 (Lamsa)

What is "Lamsa"? Please note that I asked you to show me where Paul
taught any Gentile to keep the sabbath. You quoted Paul's letter to
the Hebrews. Are Hebrews Gentiles? I don't think so.
.

User: "Stephen Korsman"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	31 May 2004 12:44:48 PM

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5a58f345.0405301642.3111132@posting.google.com...

What is "Lamsa"?

http://www.dtl.org/versions/e-mails/lamsa.htm
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/LBP.htm
http://www.bibletexts.com/qa/qa023.htm
God bless,
Stephen
--
--
Stephen Korsman
skorsman@theotokos.co.za
www.theotokos.co.za
www.theotokos.co.za/adventism
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
.

User: "Katrina Bloomfield"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	31 May 2004 06:04:09 PM

"Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotokos.co.za> wrote:

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote:

What is "Lamsa"?

http://www.bibletexts.com/qa/qa023.htm

Thankyou Stephen. The link above says this:
George Lamsa, L-A-M-S-A, who in the 1940s persuaded a reputable
publisher of the Bible in Philadelphia, the Winston Publishing
Company, to issue his absolute fraud, of 'the Bible translated from
the original Aramaic.' Absolutely a money getter, and nothing else.
He said that 'the whole of the New Testament was written in
Aramaic,' and he 'translates it from the Aramaic,' but he never
would show anybody the manuscripts that he translated from.
Secondly, why would Paul write in Aramaic, let us say, to the
people of Galatia? They didn't know any more Aramaic than people in
Charlestown or Princeton know Aramaic. Why would Paul write to the
Romans in Aramaic? They didn't know Aramaic. So, even from a
logical point of view, it's silly to say that 'the whole of the New
Testament was written in Aramaic.'
This is a rather scathing criticism by Dr Bruce Metzger, describing
the Lamsa translation as an "absolute fraud". I wonder if anybody has
anything good to say about George Lamsa's work?
Andrew, could you quote the rest of Hebrews 4 from the Lamsa
translation please so that we can see what it's really like? Thanks.
.

User: "Stephen Korsman"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	01 Jun 2004 03:37:16 PM

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5a58f345.0405311504.34272097@posting.google.com...

"Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotokos.co.za> wrote:

"Katrina Bloomfield" <katrina_bloomfield@hotmail.com> wrote:

What is "Lamsa"?

http://www.bibletexts.com/qa/qa023.htm

Thankyou Stephen. The link above says this:

George Lamsa, L-A-M-S-A, who in the 1940s persuaded a reputable
publisher of the Bible in Philadelphia, the Winston Publishing
Company, to issue his absolute fraud, of 'the Bible translated from
the original Aramaic.' Absolutely a money getter, and nothing else.

He said that 'the whole of the New Testament was written in
Aramaic,' and he 'translates it from the Aramaic,' but he never
would show anybody the manuscripts that he translated from.
Secondly, why would Paul write in Aramaic, let us say, to the
people of Galatia? They didn't know any more Aramaic than people in
Charlestown or Princeton know Aramaic. Why would Paul write to the
Romans in Aramaic? They didn't know Aramaic. So, even from a
logical point of view, it's silly to say that 'the whole of the New
Testament was written in Aramaic.'

This is a rather scathing criticism by Dr Bruce Metzger, describing
the Lamsa translation as an "absolute fraud". I wonder if anybody has
anything good to say about George Lamsa's work?

Andrew, could you quote the rest of Hebrews 4 from the Lamsa
translation please so that we can see what it's really like? Thanks.

From what I've read, the Lamsa translation seems to be held in high esteem
mainly by those who want to promote unorthodox doctrines not supported by
better and more widely used translations. Which is why it's coming up
regarding the Sabbath.
God bless,
Stephen
--
--
Stephen Korsman
skorsman@theotokos.co.za
www.theotokos.co.za
www.theotokos.co.za/adventism
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
.

User: "Andrew"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	01 Jun 2004 08:44:24 PM

"Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotokos.co.za> wrote
in message news:c9irev$dla$3@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...

Lamsa was quoted as *one of* numerous translations of Heb 4:9.
If you feel they translated incorrectly, then you should explain why.
"It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath."
Heb 4:9 (Lamsa)
"There remaineth therefore a keeping of a Sabbath to the people of
God." Heb 4:9 KJV(margin)
"There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God."
Heb 4:9 ASV
"Therefore the sabbath is left to the people of God"
Heb 4:9 (Wycliffe)
"So there is still a Sabbath rest for God's people."
Heb 4:9 NIRV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The KJV margin reference would be perhaps the most literal..
"There remaineth therefore a [keeping of a Sabbath] to the people of God."
"sabbatismos"
sabbatismos: celebration of a Sabbath
keeping of a Sabbath
The truth of the Sabbath which Jesus Christ made *for us* so that we may
be physically and spiritually renewed for our duties of life in the new week,
is in no way dependent on the Lamsa translation.. or on Heb 4:9.
The Lord Jesus has given His own example as well as command. Those who
are surrendered to Him in love, will understand and know what His will is on
this issue.
"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine"
John 7:17
.

User: "Stephen Korsman"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	02 Jun 2004 05:43:14 PM

"Andrew" <andrew.321remov@usa.net> wrote in message
news:2i4pnoFjap02U1@uni-berlin.de...

"Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotokos.co.za> wrote
in message news:c9irev$dla$3@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...

From what I've read, the Lamsa translation seems to be held in high

esteem

mainly by those who want to promote unorthodox doctrines not supported

better and more widely used translations. Which is why it's coming up
regarding the Sabbath.

Lamsa was quoted as *one of* numerous translations of Heb 4:9.
If you feel they translated incorrectly, then you should explain why.

There are some good explanations online. Verle Streifling had an excellent
analysis in Proclamation.
See also:
http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/hebrews4.9.htm
http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/sabbath5.htm
http://www.bible.ca/7-sabbath-hebrews4.htm
God bless,
Stephen
--
--
Stephen Korsman
skorsman@theotokos.co.za
www.theotokos.co.za
www.theotokos.co.za/adventism
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
.

User: "Katrina Bloomfield"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	02 Jun 2004 05:39:14 PM

"Andrew" <andrew.321remov@usa.net> wrote:

"Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotokos.co.za> wrote:

Lamsa was quoted as *one of* numerous translations of Heb 4:9.

Eh? No it wasn't. Take a look:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2hqecgFg3159U1%40uni-berlin.de
That's why I asked you to quote the rest of Hebrews 4 from Lamsa so
that we can see what it's like. Please quote the rest of Hebrews 4
from Lamsa so that we can see what it's like.
.

User: "willow"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	02 Jun 2004 05:45:19 PM

Katrina Bloomfield wrote:

"Andrew" <andrew.321remov@usa.net> wrote:

"Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotokos.co.za> wrote:

Lamsa was quoted as *one of* numerous translations of Heb 4:9.

Eh? No it wasn't. Take a look:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2hqecgFg3159U1%40uni-berlin.de

That's why I asked you to quote the rest of Hebrews 4 from Lamsa so
that we can see what it's like. Please quote the rest of Hebrews 4
from Lamsa so that we can see what it's like.

He also had a post with a bunch of selected Heb 4v9 translations,
with lamsa at the top. But it really doesn't do much for his
credibility to quote lamsa. Those who didn't check up might
have read his post and concluded that the lamsa quote was a
perfectly reasonable translation of the original greek.
.

User: "willow"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	02 Jun 2004 05:48:49 PM

willow wrote:

Katrina Bloomfield wrote:

"Andrew" <andrew.321remov@usa.net> wrote:

"Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotokos.co.za> wrote:

Lamsa was quoted as *one of* numerous translations of Heb 4:9.

Eh? No it wasn't. Take a look:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2hqecgFg3159U1%40uni-berlin.de

That's why I asked you to quote the rest of Hebrews 4 from Lamsa so
that we can see what it's like. Please quote the rest of Hebrews 4
from Lamsa so that we can see what it's like.

In any case, it's a bit dubious to list a whole bunch of english
translations and not quote another whole bunch as a way to get
at the meaning of the verse. If there's doubt, you don't just
pick up a whole bunch of english translations and take the
majority view. You look at the original greek. His verse is
a perfect example of where gramatically, the greek does not
allow the interpretation he wants to make.
.

User: "Andrew"
Title: *Re: Church Fathers* -or- the Bible??**	02 Jun 2004 06:23:54 PM