| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
20 Oct 2005 12:34:28 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Concerning Pastor Dave |
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:51:19 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly:
<snip previous conversation, to avoid redundant text>
1 John 1:10 MKJV
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar,
and His Word is not in us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pastor Dave is calling God a liar. His Word is not in him.
You completely ignored everything I wrote and didn't
even have the honesty and integrity to address it.
Thus, I will post this message for the benefit of other
readers, since it is clear that you prefer to remain lost
in the false belief that born again Christians are still
vile sinners before God.
The Bible calls you, "willingly ignorant" and that basically
means, "dumb on purpose".
This time, I will provide some background information that
you obviously do not have, since you, in your ignorance,
seem to think that you're being led by the Holy Spirit, to
come to this conclusion, even though it doesn't hold water
under the light of Scripture.
You must remember, that John was specifically dealing
with Gnosticism here and the specific form of Gnosticism
he was dealing with was Antinomianism, which simply means,
"opposed to law". In other words, it says that one can do
whatever one wants in the body and that doesn't matter.
One is not guilty of anything. Thus, John responds to this
claim, by showing that yes, the deeds done in the body do
matter. That we are guilty before God for the deeds done
in the body and that God does hold men accountable for
them, which is a result of their evil hearts of stone.
Therefore, they needed to be shown that those who
believe that, do not have Christ at all and aren't
Christians, even though they claim to be and call
themselves part of the church. John is also warning
those who may get sucked into this heresy, which
leads to wild living and all kinds of perverse actions.
Thus, once again, you are taking that passage out of
context. Reading it in context, shows that it is discussing
those who claim to be Christians and are not. Something
you should relate to quite well, since you have not only
twisted the Scriptures to suit your erroneous thinking,
but also refuse correction, thinking yourself wise and
only becoming foolish in your claims. (:
These passages also discuss coming to Him while
still being of the world and needing to confess that
we are sinners when doing so. What it is NOT discussing,
is our state AFTER receiving Christ into our hearts.
Knowing this, let us look at the Scriptures IN CONTEXT
and in MORE DETAIL, using the translation you quoted...
1 John 1:5-10 [MKJV]
5) And this is the message which we have heard from
Him and declare to you, that God is light, and in Him
is no darkness at all.
The message is that there is no darkness in Him
*_AT ALL_*.
Thus, these people who claim to have accepted Christ
and believe in Antinomianism, are not really Christians,
since they walk in darkness.
Now note here Vera, IT DOES NOT SAY that they commit
an occasional sin. It says they WALK IN darkness. In
other words, it is A WAY OF LIFE for them.
Again, remember that the Gnostics were preaching that
it was only the mind that mattered, not the deeds of the
body. Gnosis means "knowledge" and they considered
themselves receivers of a divine knowledge, that only
a few would be made privy to and that it was only this
knowledge that mattered and not how one lived in the
body. THAT is THE context for these passages, Vera!
6) If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk
in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
If we claim to have fellowship with Him and walk
in darkness, that means that we are liars. It means
that we are still in sin. In other words, we are NOT
born again and that is what these Antinomians
were doing. They were claiming to have fellowship
with Christ and still walking in darkness.
Now note that Vera. 'W-A-L-K-I-N-G". That speaks
of ACTION. It was how they were ACTING PHYSICALLY,
while CLAIMING to have fellowship with Christ, that John
is addressing here.
It says that two things were happening there.
1) They were claiming to have fellowship with Christ.
2) Their lives, BY THEIR BODILY ACTIONS, were
being lived in sinful pleasures (darkness).
7) But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we
have fellowship with one another, and the blood of
Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
It says that if we walk in the light, then Jesus Christ
cleanses us from *_ALL SIN_*.
This means that if Christ cleanses us from all sin,
that we must have been living in sin and thus, their
claim that the deeds of the body don't matter, is in
gross error.
These people simply did not realize the impact of
what they were preaching. Their claim makes His
sacrifice on the cross meaningless and Christ
a fool for having died on the cross!
And even further, it makes their claim contradictory,
since it would also mean that their goal would be
to "have fellowship" with a fool and claim salvation
through a fool. Something they obviously didn't see,
with their darkened hearts, as foolish men!
The passage also says that by thinking the way they did,
that we can't have fellowship with EACH OTHER, if we
are walking in darkness.
Has it ever occurred to you, that's why you don't have
anyone agreeing with you? Because you constantly
harass people and accuse them falsely of doing things
that they haven't done and file false complaints with
their ISP's, as you did with your (approx) dozen complaints
against me, with my ISP and did with others as well?
Has it occurred to you, that you walk in darkness and that
is why you cannot understand God's word?
Has it occurred to you that if you submit to God, instead
of thinking that with your dark heart that you are in a
position to teach the world, that maybe you would see
the truth and be able to repent of your sins and be
cleansed? It seems to me, that you are not cleansed,
Vera. That you are not born again. It would be one thing
if you occasionally got angry or something, but for you,
it is A WAY OF LIFE and that shows me that any claim
you make of being born again, is a false claim!
Now as to the passage, how much of our sin does it say
He cleanses us from, Vera? ALL OF IT, VERA! That
means there's NONE LEFT!
Now when someone is born again, then that means that
they have been cleansed. That means that there is no
sin left.
It obviously does not mean that we will never commit
a sin. This is not about that. This is about whether
or not we came to the Lord, confessing ourselves as
vile sinners deserving His judgment and Hell. And this
is about whether or not we are held guilty before God.
If we are truly repentant and have been born again,
then we are not, since we are cleansed of *_ALL SIN_*.
We cannot be cleansed and guilty at the same time.
That is a ridiculous claim to make and yet, it is the
very claim that YOU are making and it's heresy!
8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.
This is a statement about how WE COME TO JESUS,
not one of our state AFTER having come to Jesus.
That is clear by the CONTEXT set above.
I.e., We cannot come to Jesus, claiming that we do
not have any sin and that we stand righteous before
God, as the Pharisees tried to do for example and
Jesus blasted them for their self-righteousness.
The Gnostics were claiming that they had no sin
in their actions (which revealed their hearts to be
dark as well) and remember what John addressed.
The fact that they were, "WALKING IN SIN".
9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all
unrighteousness.
This proves that v8 is tied to the context set, since
this verse is a continuation of the same statement.
John is talking about when we first come to Christ,
since he again mentions the same cleansing by Christ.
I.e., We do not get cleansed by Christ, over and over
again, as if we had to worry that if we died before
we got a chance to pray to God for forgiveness,
that we will be in Hell because of it and that is the net
result of what YOU'RE preaching. But that is NOT
the case and John is telling people THAT AND NOT
what YOU are FALSELY claiming that he is saying!
Your claim would mean that Christ's blood is not
sufficient in one application, as if His blood were
in some way lacking. (:
When Christ cleanses us, it is a one time affair and
no more cleansing is necessary. This ties back to
what Christ said, when Peter told Christ to wash all
of Him and Christ told him that when one is cleansed,
he need only wash his feet, since he is already clean.
Yes, we ask God for forgiveness for any sins that
we may commit at some point. But that is equal
to washing our hands and feet and not our whole
bodies. We stand before God as born again Christians
cleansed of all sin and we are clean. You see to think
that God puts His Holy Spirit in an unclean vessel! (:
You also contradict yourself. You seem to have no problem
claiming that you stand uncondemned before God and yet,
at the same time, want us to believe that John is saying
that we stand as sinners before God.
Well, which is it Vera? Do you stand as a sinner before
God? Or do you stand cleansed before God? You can't
have it both ways! (:
John is saying here that when we first come to Christ,
we must confess that we are sinners, accountable
before God for our sins and that we think and walk
in darkness, because of our dark hearts.
Now what does he say happens after doing that, Vera?
Simple. He says that when we do that, Christ is faithful
to... "forgive us our sins, and to *CLEANSE* us from
*ALL* unrighteousness".
Now how can there be any sin left, if we are cleansed
from it all? It isn't just past sins, since all of our sins
were in the future, when Christ died on the cross.
That is what these Gnostics were lacking! They never
made that confession before Christ, because they
believed that the deeds of the body didn't matter and
therefore, the were claiming that they had fellowship
with Christ, while at the same time, walking in darkness,
claiming that they had no sin! John is NOT speaking
of truly repentant, born again Christians! He is NOT!
Again, you want us to believe that we get cleansed and then
have to worry, day to day, that maybe God won't let us into
Heaven and that goes AGAINST what the Bible teaches!
How are we to have the joy the Bible says we are to have,
if we have to be scared each and every day and if we should
consider ourselves no more than just a vile sinner?!
You want us to believe that God changed us from vile
sinners, into vile sinners! Is that the god YOU worship?
I worship the REAL, TRUE GOD, who has cleansed me
from *ALL* sin! And do you know WHY I believe that, Vera?
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HE SAID!!!
10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar,
and His Word is not in us.
Now note Vera, John is not saying, "If we say that we do
not sin", as a present tense statement.
No! He is saying, "If we say that we have not sinned".
Note: That is a PAST TENSE statement!
Again, this is regarding how we first come to Christ.
You seem to forget, that people were trying to claim to be
Christians, while at the same time, were claiming that they
were not the vile sinners that they were (and in the case
of the Gnostics, John is pointing out that they still are,
because of this error in doctrine).
Now as we read other Scriptures, we see what God says
about those who come to Him...
John recorded Jesus as saying... "I have come so that
they might have life, and that they might have it more
abundantly.". Note Vera... LIFE, not death!
You teach FEAR for ALL believers! Yet the Bible says...
"For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power
and of love and of a sound mind." - 2 Timothy 1:7
And it also say...
Romans 8:15-16
15) For you have not received the spirit of bondage again
to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by
which we cry, Abba, Father!
16) The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that
we are the children of God.
That word "Abba" is basically the same as saying, "Daddy".
It is an intimate form of addressing God the Father, that
we can feel free to use, when we are adopted into God's
family and become children of God, since we are not all
born children of God, which is an error that the modern
church teaches (that we are all children of God). Only
born again believers are children of God. As for the rest,
they are enemies of God (James 4:4) and Jesus told them
that their father was the Devil (John 8:44).
"So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new
creature; old things have passed away; behold,
all things have become new." - 2 Cor 5:17
Note: It says, "ALL THINGS".
How is it "new", if we are still vile sinners before God,
Vera? How does that work?
And if you claim that we are innocent before God, then
what you are really saying, is that God accounts us as
innocent and VERA accounts us as guilty!
Now why should I believe you over God? At that point,
you are seeking to drag Bible believing Christians, who
put their faith in the FINISHED work of Christ, while
pointing your finger at everyone else, which is what you
ALWAYS DO!
Now read the following...
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9) Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit
the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators,
nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
10) nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers,
nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11) And such *WERE* some of you. But you are WASHED,
but you are SANCTIFIED, but you are JUSTIFIED in the
name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
I don't identify myself as what I WAS.
I identify myself as what I AM.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give you as a Light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.
- Israel 49:6
.
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| User: " ::: vera :::" |
|
| Title: Re: Concerning Pastor Dave |
20 Oct 2005 05:19:19 PM |
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Pastor Dave <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:51:19 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly:
<snip previous conversation, to avoid redundant text>
1 John 1:10 MKJV
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar,
and His Word is not in us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pastor Dave is calling God a liar. His Word is not in him.
You completely ignored everything I wrote
Wonderful feeling!
::: vera :::
____________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
.
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| User: "Ranger Fan" |
|
| Title: Re: Concerning Pastor Dave |
21 Oct 2005 11:17:49 AM |
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On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:19:19 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> bashed randomly on a keyboard, which
resulted in:
Pastor Dave <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:51:19 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly:
<snip previous conversation, to avoid redundant text>
1 John 1:10 MKJV
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar,
and His Word is not in us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pastor Dave is calling God a liar. His Word is not in him.
You completely ignored everything I wrote
Wonderful feeling!
::: vera :::
____________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
For someone that doesn't want Pastor Dave to write to her, you sure
write a lot to him.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Concerning Pastor Dave |
20 Oct 2005 05:31:16 PM |
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On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:19:19 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:51:19 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly:
<snip previous conversation, to avoid redundant text>
1 John 1:10 MKJV
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar,
and His Word is not in us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pastor Dave is calling God a liar. His Word is not in him.
You completely ignored everything I wrote
Wonderful feeling!
Now stop harassing me! cease and desist!
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give you as a Light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.
- Israel 49:6
.
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| User: " ::: vera :::" |
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| Title: Re: Concerning Pastor Dave |
20 Oct 2005 05:56:30 PM |
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Pastor Dave <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:19:19 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:51:19 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly:
<snip previous conversation, to avoid redundant text>
1 John 1:10 MKJV
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar,
and His Word is not in us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pastor Dave is calling God a liar. His Word is not in him.
You completely ignored everything I wrote
Wonderful feeling!
Now stop harassing me! cease and desist!
So just leave me in peace, and I will ignore you and your lies.
::: vera :::
____________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Concerning Pastor Dave |
21 Oct 2005 04:27:07 PM |
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On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:56:30 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:19:19 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:51:19 +0200, " ::: vera :::"
<verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly:
<snip previous conversation, to avoid redundant text>
1 John 1:10 MKJV
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar,
and His Word is not in us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pastor Dave is calling God a liar. His Word is not in him.
You completely ignored everything I wrote
Wonderful feeling!
Now stop harassing me! cease and desist!
So just leave me in peace, and I will ignore you and your lies.
Stop harassing me, Vera! Cease and desist!
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give you as a Light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.
- Israel 49:6
.
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| User: "SJAB1958" |
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| Title: Re: Concerning Pastor Dave |
21 Oct 2005 12:16:57 PM |
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the false prophet claims to be godly and truthful. You "Pastor" Dave
portray that very attribute. Stop trolling all these good people and
get a life.
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