"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:40BEB1B9.22969401@Nothing_But_The.Truth...

Zaphod \"stil prez\" wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:40BE9592.75C28C3C@Nothing_But_The.Truth...

Zaphod \"stil prez\" wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:40BE8BF5.2B972017@Nothing_But_The.Truth...

Zaphod \"stil prez\" wrote:

"Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote in message

news:EDnvc.22638$_k3.564183@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

"Zaphod "stil prez"" <zaphodB@safe-mail.net> wrote in

"Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote in

"bv_schornak" <nowhere@schornak.de> wrote in message

Libertarius wrote:

===>There is no evidence that Adam, Eve, Noah, Lot,
Abraham, Moses, or Joshua ever existed.

There also is no evidence they did not exist. I would
doubt it in some cases (Adam, Eve), but the remaining
figures might have been real persons.

About two months ago a neighbor of mine used the
argument that there is no proof that God did not exist,
therefore it was illogical for me to claim that there was
no god.

In one of my most brilliant moments, I did not argue
with him. That surprised him. And me.

He was even more also surprised when I told him that
I now have over ten million dollars in assets. We live
in the same condo complex, and he knows my style of
living. He was sure I was lying.

Except that the existence of ten million dollars is

something

that can be proven. I couldn't prove the full ten million
right then, but I told him that if we went to the

computer,

connected with the _______ _______ bank website,
entered in my I.D. and password, we could go to
"account balances" and he would see that I had over
three million dollars in stocks and bonds right there.
The existence of the three million dollars was enough
to prove to him that my word is good, and I had over
ten million dollars in assets.

Or it would have proved it to him if I took him to the
computer and did as I said. But I didn't. Therefore
he won't believe me. But he can't prove that I don't
have ten million dollars.

Is that logical?

--
Wax

I'm not sure Wax, if you give me your account number,
routing numbers access codes and all the rest, I'll use
your 10 mil to study up real hard on logic and then I'll
unravel it for you. Honest injune I will. :0)

Zaphod

Thank you for taking me on my word that I have over ten

million

dollars in assets, even though I gave you absolutely no proof.
It shows that you are a true man of faith. There should be

more

like you.

--
Wax

Wax I have seen too much, been to many places and experienced to

much

not

to.
I try and take everyman at his word. Call me gullible but until

some

one

lies to me and I catch them or they say something that is 100%

contrary

to

what
I believe to be true then they are speaking the truth. Just

because

someone

asserts
something to be true, I don't feel they always have to prove it,

which

is

the big
kicker around here. If they claim a truth and they want me to

act on

it,

or

I feel it
effects me in some way I might ask for proof or if important

enough

to

me, I

will
dig out the yea or nay of it myself.

Some people call me gullible for this, in a way I am, people

have

told

me

some
whoppers only to have me say "Really" and then they drop them

boom

on

me.

I think every man should be given the benefit of the doubt until

they

prove

different.

If you say you got 10 mil, I believe you. If you want me to

build

you a

house or do
something else based on the fact that you have 10 mil, well then

I

might

ask

you
for some proof. I tended to believe people are basically honest

but

I do

know
that regardless of what people say, they will always do exactly

what

they

want to
do, regardless of what they have said. Each time I meet a new

person

they

start
with a clean slate, even if they were bad apples in the past.

It is nice to meet you sir and I wish you only the best.

Zaphod

From 1866 until 1868 Mr. George Hull, of Binghamton, New York

studied

archeology and paleontology. Over this period of time Hull

contemplated

how to pull off a hoax. It seems that many an evangelist at the

time

had

been preaching that there were giants in the earth. In June of

1868

Hull

traveled back to Fort Dodge, Iowa where there was a gypsum quarry

he

had

recalled seeing two years earlier. Even then, he had noticed that

the

dark blue streaks running through the soft lime rock resembled

human

veins. Realizing this its appearance was tailor-made for his hoax

and

it

was easy to carve, Hull hired a group of quarry workers to cut off

a

slab measuring twelve feet long, four feet wide and two feet

thick.

In November, Hull had his gypsum wrapped in canvas and hoisted

onto a

wagon. Since the nearest railroad was forty miles away, it proved

to

be

a long, difficult job. He then had the slab of gypsum shipped by

rail

to

Chicago where he had hired a stone cutter named Edward Burghardt

to

carve a giant. Burghardt and his two assistants, were sworn to

secrecy

and agreed to work on the piece in a secluded barn during their

off

hours and Sundays. The instructions were to carve the giant as if

it

had

died in pain, and the final result was an eerie figure, slightly
twisted in apparent agony, with his right hand clutching his

stomach.

All of the details were there; toenails, fingernails, nostrils,

sex

organs and so forth. Even a needlepoint mallet was used to add
authentic-looking skin pores. When the carving was done, sulfuric

acid

and ink were used to make the figure look aged.

The giant finished, Hull then had the figure shipped by rail to

the

farm

of William Newell, his cousin, located near the town of Cardiff,

New

York. In the dead of night, Hull, Newell and his oldest son buried

the

giant between the barn and house. They were instructed to say

nothing

about it and that Hull would let them know in about a year of what

the

next stage was.

Luckily, about six months later, on another farm near the

Newell's,

some

million year-old fossil bones were dug up. Newspapers around the

country

reported the finding. Hull was filled with glee in reading the

accounts.

True to his word, one year after burying the giant, Hull sent word

to

his cousin on October 15, 1869, to start the next stage of the

hoax.

Newell hired two laborers to dig a new well near his home. Newell
directed them to the exact spot he wanted the well dug and went

back

into the house to wait -- anxiously. Sure enough, well into the

day,

the

two laborers rushed up to the house to announce their discovery: a

giant

turned to stone! The laborers and both Newells carefully excavated

the

area surrounding the giant.

News of this amazing discovery spread throughout the valley and

soon

wagon loads of neighbors streamed into Newell's farm to see the

giant.

By mid-afternoon, Newell erected a tent around the "grave" and

started

charging 25 cent admission. Two days later, the Syracuse Journal

(New

York) printed an article about the discovery. Being greedy,

Newell

raised the price to 50 cents, and a stage coach company made four

round

trips a day from Syracuse to the Newell farm. Thousands came every

day.

Among the visitors were clergymen, college professors and

distinguished

scientists. Before long, the expert's opinions split into two

theories;

one side claimed it was a true fossilized human giant and
the other side pronounced it an authentic ancient statue. No one
asserted that it was a fake!

About ten days after the discovery, and about the time the Cardiff
Giant, as the papers had named it, started receiving national
attention, Hull sold two-thirds interest in the giant for $30,000

to a

five-man syndicate in Syracuse, the head of which was a banker

named

David Hannum. The syndicate moved the giant to an exhibition hall

in

Syracuse and raised the admission price to a dollar a head.

Unknown to

them, P. T. Barnum sent an agent to see the giant and make an
assessment. The particular Sunday the representative saw the

giant,

the

crowds were abnormally large -- about 3,000 people. The agent

wired

the news back to Barnum and Barnum instructed him to make an offer

of

$50,000 to buy it. Hannum turned his offer down.

The Cardiff Giant was the most talked about exhibit in the nation.
Barnum wanted the giant to display himself while the attraction

was

still a hot topic of the day. Rather than upping his offer, Barnum

hired

a crew of workers to carve a giant of his own. Within a short

time,

Barnum unveiled HIS giant and proclaimed that Hannum had sold

Barnum

the

original giant and that Hannum was now displaying a fake!

Thousands of

people flocked to see Barnum's giant. Many newspapers carried the
version that Barnum given them; that is, Hannum's giant was a

fake

and

Barnum's was authentic. It is at this point that
Hannum -- NOT BARNUM -- was quoted as saying "There's a sucker

born

every minute." Hannum, still under the impression that HIS giant

was

authentic, was referring to the thousands of "fools" that paid

money

to

see Barnum's fake and not his authentic one.

Hannum brought a lawsuit against Barnum for calling his giant a

fake.

When it came to trial, Hull stepped forward and confessed that the
Cardiff Giant was a hoax and the entire story. The judge ruled

that

Barnum could not be sued for calling Hannum's giant a fake since

it

was

a fake after all. Thereafter, Hannum's name was lost to history

while

Barnum was left with the misplaced stigma of being the one to say
"There's a sucker born every minute."

By R. J. Brown
http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbarnum.html

Well considering you can no more prove that god doesn't exist
then they can that he does exist, it is only arrogance on your
part to assume that someone who is a theist is a sucker.
It also show an incredible disregard for another's believe
and faith. From where I stand you in part believe in nothing
so you are as much a sucker as a Christian.

Zaphod

===>But you are wrong.
One can prove or disprove the existence of
anything so long as that thing is clearly defined, including
a method by which proof can be found.

Yes and if your mom put together all the ingredients of a pie and turned

on

the over, I'm sure you could prove or disprove the existence of said

pie.

But since no one could agree with with what the term "clearly defined"

or "w

hat method" to use, you have merely stacked the deck to make your

premise

sound good.

===>It is YOU who is "stacking the deck", or dodging the matter, by
falsely
asserting that "no one could agree with with what the term "clearly
defined" or
"what method" to use!

I can make anything look the way I wanted it to look by

attaching all my own specifications as to what and how you should look

for

it.
Your personal beliefs have nothing to do with proving anything they are

just

an arbitrary set of rules you have concocted.

===>Sounds like you have never had even the slightest acquaintance with
science or the scientific method. Without clear definitions and methods
to test our hypotheses, we would be back to the Christian Millennium of
the Dark Ages.

As for "believe in nothing", wrong again.
I definitely do NOT believe in NOTHING.
NOTHING does not exist, never has, never will, despite
creationist claims to the contrary. -- L.

Really lay the rap on current physicist about dark matter and see how

quick

they run you out laughing at you.

===>What on earth -- or in the heavens -- are you talking about?
OK. That was just a rhetorical question, since it is clear you
have no answer because you don't know what you are talking about.

Your belief systems have big holes in them

===>I don't HAVE a "belief system". I know it is hard for
believers to imagine that, as it is to imagine that the
Cosmic Totality has always existed and will always exist
without any exra-cosmic super-natural "creator" beings who
just happen to be --- here, there, everywhere, out of nowhere
and nowhen, creating things out of nothing, etc.

Your own word contradict themselves. You have a belief system
You belief system says that Cosmic Totality has, always existed.

You have another bunch of beliefs to back up your main one.
No belief system, blah. you just stated your belief system for
all to see.