| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Weatherwax" |
| Date: |
31 Mar 2004 07:17:02 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:1ojm60l50ct4ieinpr7sqo7h2bf0rco8os@4ax.com...
Codebreaker@bigsecret.com (Not-easily-duped) wrote in
alt.atheism
It was decided that the gentiles shouldn't be forced to live
by the burden of Moses Law nor the jewish culture.
Forced by who? Who do you think would dare try to
enforce some Jewish religious dietary and other laws on
people?
We should also consider that the community in Jerusalem depended
upon Paul raising money from the gentiles for their relief. It
would be against their best interest to impose restrictions upon
gentile converts.
--
Wax
..
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "bv_schornak" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION -- NO RESURRECTION |
24 May 2004 05:59:34 PM |
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Libertarius wrote:
bv_schornak wrote:
tock@sbcglobal.net wrote:
After Jesus was resurrected, he appeared to his disciples a few times, then
finally bid them farewell and ascended into heaven.
Up, up, up he rose, and as he ascended higher and higher, the air got so
thin there wasn't enough to breathe, and he lost consciousness, and
plummeted into the ocean where he was devoured by a large white shark.
No, no, Scotti beamed him up before he could multiply
that poor fish to feed a hungry crowd of thousands of
Quetzacoatl worshippers. So they still are waiting to
be killed & baptized postmortal. Poor Enterprise...
===>Did Jesus violate the PRIME DIRECTIVE???
What is the PRIME DIRECTIVE? Sorry, word by word translation
gives no clue, I assume it's a term with a special meaning.
Greetings from Augsburg
Bernhard Schornak
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION -- NO RESURRECTION |
24 May 2004 09:42:35 PM |
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bv_schornak wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
bv_schornak wrote:
tock@sbcglobal.net wrote:
After Jesus was resurrected, he appeared to his disciples a few times, then
finally bid them farewell and ascended into heaven.
Up, up, up he rose, and as he ascended higher and higher, the air got so
thin there wasn't enough to breathe, and he lost consciousness, and
plummeted into the ocean where he was devoured by a large white shark.
No, no, Scotti beamed him up before he could multiply
that poor fish to feed a hungry crowd of thousands of
Quetzacoatl worshippers. So they still are waiting to
be killed & baptized postmortal. Poor Enterprise...
===>Did Jesus violate the PRIME DIRECTIVE???
What is the PRIME DIRECTIVE? Sorry, word by word translation
gives no clue, I assume it's a term with a special meaning.
===>Sehr gut. Hier ist von STAR TREK:
"PRIME DIRECTIVE
As the right of each sentient species to live
in accordance with its normal cultural evolution
is considered sacred,
no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy
development of alien life and culture.
Such interference includes the introduction of superior
knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose
society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely.
Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive,
even to save their lives and/or their ship unless they
are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental
contamination of said culture. This directive takes
precedence over any and all other considerations,
and carries with it the highest moral obligation."
Wiedersehn. -- L.
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| User: "bv_schornak" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION -- NO RESURRECTION |
25 May 2004 05:51:52 PM |
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Libertarius wrote:
No, no, Scotti beamed him up before he could multiply
that poor fish to feed a hungry crowd of thousands of
Quetzacoatl worshippers. So they still are waiting to
be killed & baptized postmortal. Poor Enterprise...
===>Did Jesus violate the PRIME DIRECTIVE???
What is the PRIME DIRECTIVE? Sorry, word by word translation
gives no clue, I assume it's a term with a special meaning.
===>Sehr gut. Hier ist von STAR TREK:
"PRIME DIRECTIVE
As the right of each sentient species to live
in accordance with its normal cultural evolution
is considered sacred,
no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy
development of alien life and culture.
Such interference includes the introduction of superior
knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose
society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely.
Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive,
even to save their lives and/or their ship unless they
are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental
contamination of said culture. This directive takes
precedence over any and all other considerations,
and carries with it the highest moral obligation."
Wiedersehn. -- L.
Vielen Dank! (Thanks a lot!) :)
My answer then is YES...
Greetings from Augsburg
Bernhard Schornak
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION -- NO RESURRECTION |
26 May 2004 03:55:26 PM |
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bv_schornak wrote:
Libertarius wrote:
No, no, Scotti beamed him up before he could multiply
that poor fish to feed a hungry crowd of thousands of
Quetzacoatl worshippers. So they still are waiting to
be killed & baptized postmortal. Poor Enterprise...
===>Did Jesus violate the PRIME DIRECTIVE???
What is the PRIME DIRECTIVE? Sorry, word by word translation
gives no clue, I assume it's a term with a special meaning.
===>Sehr gut. Hier ist von STAR TREK:
"PRIME DIRECTIVE
As the right of each sentient species to live
in accordance with its normal cultural evolution
is considered sacred,
no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy
development of alien life and culture.
Such interference includes the introduction of superior
knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose
society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely.
Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive,
even to save their lives and/or their ship unless they
are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental
contamination of said culture. This directive takes
precedence over any and all other considerations,
and carries with it the highest moral obligation."
Wiedersehn. -- L.
Vielen Dank! (Thanks a lot!) :)
My answer then is YES...
===>JAWOHL!
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION -- NO RESURRECTION |
23 May 2004 07:12:51 PM |
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peter wrote:
cliffhitchon@shaw.ca wrote in message news:<be2c6dd8.0404281810.2d1e6984@posting.google.com>...
cliffhitchon@shaw.ca wrote in message news:<be2c6dd8.0404281124.6095fe9d@posting.google.com>...
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<408EF554.4412204D@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
duke wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:46:06 GMT, "Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote:
Uh, want to try that again? He had just been crucified,
and was dead with no doubt. Now he walks, talks, eats,
and drinks. That's proof as good as you can get that the
"RESURRECTION" was as real as it gets.
If you had read the post to which Libertarius was responding to,
you would have seen that Luke's version of the resurrected Christ
with flesh and bone does not agree with 1 Corinthians where Paul
says that the resurrected body is spiritual. And as the only New
Testament writer who claims to have actually seen the resurrected
Jesus, how can you disagree with him?
And ghosts do not eat and drink with his friends.
You see, our resurrection will be spiritual. But God, being God of course, rose body and
spirit. You cannot consider our resurrection to be the same light as that of Christ.
===>Cute dodge!
If "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the
perishable inherit the imperishable", what happened to his body?
Ditched it somewhere outside Jerusalem?
What was it good for?
Just to convince people he was not a "spirit" being???
If his resurrection was different from the rest of those to be resurrected,
what was he the 'first fruit" OF???
You guys are amusing with your childish "explanations". -- L.
------------------
1 Corinthians
15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised?
With what kind of body will they come?" 15:36 Fool! What you sow
will not come to life unless it dies. 15:37 And what you sow is
not the body that is to be, but a bare seed-perhaps of wheat or
something else. 15:38 But God gives it a body just as he planned,
and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 15:39 All flesh is
not the same: People have one flesh, animals have another, birds
and fish another. 15:40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly
bodies. The glory of the heavenly body is one sort and the
earthly another.
15:42 It is the same with the resurrection of the dead. What
is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 15:43 It
is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in
weakness, it is raised in power; 15:44 it is sown a natural body,
it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there
is also a spiritual body.
15:50 Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters:
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the
perishable inherit the imperishable. 15:51 Listen, I will tell
you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-
15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last
trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
imperishable, and we will be changed. 15:53 For this perishable
body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on
immortality. 15:54 Now when this perishable puts on the
imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the
saying that is written will happen,
-----------------------
You know that paul was a determined, outspoken, forcefull character.
You know that he was at odds with Peter and Barny and Mark AND several
other individuals and groups. There was contention in the early
churches. Paul was blinded by the light. He saw and heard the light of
Holy identity. That experience like all such spirit dreams, visions
and visitations, be you asleep or awake, be you open eyed or closed,
to one degree or another was prophetic. But by God, he was going to
have his own way. But it was not the blessed highway for the millions
of souls that have, by the word of Paul, been led into the ditch,
after having been blinded by there own understanding of that word. To
follow after the spirit without the body is to be cut off from life.
The God, is the God of the living. More on this subject may be had at,
http://members.shaw.ca/mias I wish you would read, telephone
conversation part(3) first. For that part is what needs to be known
about Paul.
Be not deceived, Faith is made of two things, belief and works.
Belief is as of the spirit and works is as of the body. I assure you,
Abraham would not have recieved his reward without obedience to the
spoken word of God. And the word of God unto our father was submit
yourself and your people to the foreskin circumcision. Our father
would not have obeyed without belief in the promice. And it was not
till after Abraham did God's biding that Isaac was concieved. Belief
without works is empty faith. Having not the body is death.
Try reading the book "jesus lived in India" published by Penguin. I
cannot remember the authors name or look it up as I am on vacation but
he is German and studied at one of the German Universities and has
travelled widely in Kashmir and India doing his research.
===>I have the book in my library, it is by Holger Kersten.
Actually a Russian scholar named Nicolai Notovich first ran into some monks
in India or Kashmir in late 1800's in a Buddhist monastery, who told him about
"Issa".
Kersten's book is quite interesting. -- L.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
25 Apr 2004 07:20:42 PM |
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Not-easily-duped wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<408AD4E5.E33A49E1@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
Paul's earliar statement that Jesus was seen by Cephas, then to
the twelve, then by more than five hundred (15:5-6,) is not
claiming that they saw Jesus in his physical body. Nor does Paul
distinquishes how Jesus appeared to himself, from how Jesus
appeared to the disciples. To Paul, they were all spiritual
manifestations.
You are dead wrong on this
===>It is YOU who is dead wrong. Brain dead wrong, actually.
BTW, you're misquoting the above.
Libertarius did not write that!
But it IS correctly said.
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| User: "Not-easily-duped" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
25 Apr 2004 05:23:44 PM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message > > (See Ovid's "Metamorphosis")
===>Interesting that Saul/Paul describes the "resurrection" as a
Back this up with a text by Paul
kind of metamorphosis, but the Gospels insist Jesus still had his
regular body, wounds and all, sensitive to the touch, and ready
to have a fish dinner with his friends!
So, he did not "rise" in a metamorphosed body! -- L.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
25 Apr 2004 07:17:46 PM |
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Not-easily-duped wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message > > (See Ovid's "Metamorphosis")
===>Interesting that Saul/Paul describes the "resurrection" as a
Back this up with a text by Paul
1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised imperishable,
and we will be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
etc.
Too bad you can't read.
What grade are you in???
kind of metamorphosis, but the Gospels insist Jesus still had his
regular body, wounds and all, sensitive to the touch, and ready
to have a fish dinner with his friends!
So, he did not "rise" in a metamorphosed body! -- L.
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| User: "Your Name Here=Harvey" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
23 Apr 2004 09:01:04 PM |
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In article <hHjic.3490$cY5.265939@news02.tsnz.net>,
says...
In article <SOiic.15427$_o3.496268@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
weatherwax@worldnet.net says...
"Your Name Here=Harvey" < > wrote
Picture the differences between then and now.
If Jesus lived today and went through the motions that
is suppose to have happened, how different would the
story be? More accurate? More detailed?
Live video footage?
Now take yourself back to the time it happened.
Take for granted that it did happen as reported in the bible.
How would that have been recorded?
How would it be preserved?
How did it actually get preserved.
Please summarise this in exact explicit detail please, so that
we all will know, how exactly did it happen? This recording.
And what are the many problems with such a recording?
How can it ever be verified and confirmed?
Why don't we have all the details, if it was as miraculous
an event as claimed?
Why after the fact, that it happened, is there this
passionate belief that it did happen? Why don't we have
all the supporting evidence that it happened, precisely
as recorded?
Shall we simply put it down, that people were not as
literate back then?
That mass communication was non-existant.
Harvey
You tell us what happened.
What about the resurrection? That is supposed to be the great
miracle which proves life after death.
What happened after the women saw the angel (or angels, or man)
in the tomb? Give a sequence of events which includes each
appearance of Jesus to the disciples in Jerusalem and in Galilee.
That should be easy to do, because there are not many appearances
recorded.
--
Wax
I wasn't there - so I don't know what really happened?
However if you want to, you can investigate the claims that he did not
die, but lived out the rest of his life in Kashmir.
Just put in the words
Kashmir tomb Jesus Did Die
into any search engine, like Google?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/did-jesus-die.shtml
Or go to the above site address
for details about the program 'Did Jesus Die?'
Well, it brings up the question - Was resurrection invented by the
early church? And that Jesus wanted nothing to do with them?
I don't know? But many questions arise, as to why Jesus left his
disciples far behind.
Harvey
Here are some follow up links if anyone is interested?
Transcript from the program
http://pub1.ezboard.com/flahoreahmadiyyamessageboardfrm6.showMessage?topi
cID=74.topic
Interview with the director of the program
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/did-jesus-die-intervi
ew.shtml
Harvey
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
23 Apr 2004 09:18:53 PM |
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Your Name Here=Harvey wrote:
weatherwax@worldnet.net says...
Harvey" wrote
Picture the differences between then and now. If
Jesus lived today and went through the motions that
is suppose to have happened, how different would the
story be? More accurate? More detailed? Live video
footage?
Now take yourself back to the time it happened. Take
for granted that it did happen as reported in the
bible. How would that have been recorded? How would
it be preserved?
How did it actually get preserved. Please summarise
this in exact explicit detail please, so that we all
will know, how exactly did it happen? This recording.
And what are the many problems with such a recording?
How can it ever be verified and confirmed?
Why don't we have all the details, if it was as
miraculous an event as claimed?
Why after the fact, that it happened, is there this
passionate belief that it did happen? Why don't we
have all the supporting evidence that it happened,
precisely as recorded? Shall we simply put it down,
that people were not as literate back then? That mass
communication was non-existant.
You tell us what happened.
What about the resurrection? That is supposed to be
the great miracle which proves life after death.
What happened after the women saw the angel (or angels,
or man) in the tomb? Give a sequence of events which
includes each appearance of Jesus to the disciples in
Jerusalem and in Galilee.
That should be easy to do, because there are not many
appearances recorded.
I wasn't there - so I don't know what really happened?
Neither was anyone that wrote about it.
However if you want to, you can investigate the claims
that he did not die, but lived out the rest of his life
in Kashmir.
How about proving he existed first.
Well, it brings up the question - Was resurrection
invented by the early church?
No. It's a common theme in mythology.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
24 Apr 2004 10:12:37 AM |
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"David V." wrote:
Your Name Here=Harvey wrote:
weatherwax@worldnet.net says...
Harvey" wrote
Picture the differences between then and now. If
Jesus lived today and went through the motions that
is suppose to have happened, how different would the
story be? More accurate? More detailed? Live video
footage?
Now take yourself back to the time it happened. Take
for granted that it did happen as reported in the
bible. How would that have been recorded? How would
it be preserved?
How did it actually get preserved. Please summarise
this in exact explicit detail please, so that we all
will know, how exactly did it happen? This recording.
And what are the many problems with such a recording?
How can it ever be verified and confirmed?
Why don't we have all the details, if it was as
miraculous an event as claimed?
Why after the fact, that it happened, is there this
passionate belief that it did happen? Why don't we
have all the supporting evidence that it happened,
precisely as recorded? Shall we simply put it down,
that people were not as literate back then? That mass
communication was non-existant.
You tell us what happened.
What about the resurrection? That is supposed to be
the great miracle which proves life after death.
What happened after the women saw the angel (or angels,
or man) in the tomb? Give a sequence of events which
includes each appearance of Jesus to the disciples in
Jerusalem and in Galilee.
That should be easy to do, because there are not many
appearances recorded.
I wasn't there - so I don't know what really happened?
Neither was anyone that wrote about it.
However if you want to, you can investigate the claims
that he did not die, but lived out the rest of his life
in Kashmir.
How about proving he existed first.
Well, it brings up the question - Was resurrection
invented by the early church?
No. It's a common theme in mythology.
===>Indeed, it was celebrated for thousands of years
OSIRIS, ATTIS, ADONIS, DIONYSUS, etc., etc.
That is where Saul/Paul of Tarsus got his ideas. -- L.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "Not-easily-duped" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
24 Apr 2004 03:52:55 PM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
===>Indeed, it was celebrated for thousands of years
OSIRIS, ATTIS, ADONIS, DIONYSUS, etc., etc.
That is where Saul/Paul of Tarsus got his ideas. -- L.
Where is the evidence?
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
24 Apr 2004 04:21:38 PM |
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Not-easily-duped wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
===>Indeed, it was celebrated for thousands of years
OSIRIS, ATTIS, ADONIS, DIONYSUS, etc., etc.
That is where Saul/Paul of Tarsus got his ideas. -- L.
Where is the evidence?
===>In every library in the world, Duped!
.
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| User: "Not-easily-duped" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
25 Apr 2004 04:58:31 PM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<408ADA62.15587264@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
Not-easily-duped wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
===>Indeed, it was celebrated for thousands of years
OSIRIS, ATTIS, ADONIS, DIONYSUS, etc., etc.
That is where Saul/Paul of Tarsus got his ideas. -- L.
Where is the evidence?
===>In every library in the world, Duped!
You read uncritically anything written as long as you can used it as
an argument against Christianity. Libraries are not for the cynicals
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
25 Apr 2004 07:00:01 PM |
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Not-easily-duped wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<408ADA62.15587264@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
Not-easily-duped wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
===>Indeed, it was celebrated for thousands of years
OSIRIS, ATTIS, ADONIS, DIONYSUS, etc., etc.
That is where Saul/Paul of Tarsus got his ideas. -- L.
Where is the evidence?
===>In every library in the world, Duped!
You read uncritically anything written as long as you can used it as
an argument against Christianity. Libraries are not for the cynicals
===>Libraries are for those who have the intelligence to use them.
You don't. That is why you object.
.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
25 Apr 2004 04:44:42 AM |
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On 24 Apr 2004 13:52:55 -0700, (Not-easily-duped)
wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
===>Indeed, it was celebrated for thousands of years
OSIRIS, ATTIS, ADONIS, DIONYSUS, etc., etc.
That is where Saul/Paul of Tarsus got his ideas. -- L.
Where is the evidence?
Dopey... you????? Asking for evidence?
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "Your Name Here=Harvey" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
24 Apr 2004 02:13:28 AM |
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In article <c72dnS1GJKkSUxTdRVn-tA@sti.net>, says...
Your Name Here=Harvey wrote:
weatherwax@worldnet.net says...
Harvey" wrote
Picture the differences between then and now. If
Jesus lived today and went through the motions that
is suppose to have happened, how different would the
story be? More accurate? More detailed? Live video
footage?
Now take yourself back to the time it happened. Take
for granted that it did happen as reported in the
bible. How would that have been recorded? How would
it be preserved?
How did it actually get preserved. Please summarise
this in exact explicit detail please, so that we all
will know, how exactly did it happen? This recording.
And what are the many problems with such a recording?
How can it ever be verified and confirmed?
Why don't we have all the details, if it was as
miraculous an event as claimed?
Why after the fact, that it happened, is there this
passionate belief that it did happen? Why don't we
have all the supporting evidence that it happened,
precisely as recorded? Shall we simply put it down,
that people were not as literate back then? That mass
communication was non-existant.
You tell us what happened.
What about the resurrection? That is supposed to be
the great miracle which proves life after death.
What happened after the women saw the angel (or angels,
or man) in the tomb? Give a sequence of events which
includes each appearance of Jesus to the disciples in
Jerusalem and in Galilee.
That should be easy to do, because there are not many
appearances recorded.
I wasn't there - so I don't know what really happened?
Neither was anyone that wrote about it.
However if you want to, you can investigate the claims
that he did not die, but lived out the rest of his life
in Kashmir.
How about proving he existed first.
Well, it brings up the question - Was resurrection
invented by the early church?
No. It's a common theme in mythology.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
Well, it's probably easier to follow up on leads about his death,
and where his body/tomb is located (here, we have a body, and evidence
thereof...)
Did Jesus Die?
Transcript from the program
http://pub1.ezboard.com/flahoreahmadiyyamessageboardfrm6.showMessage?top
icID=74.topic
Interview with the director of the program
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/did-jesus-die-interv
iew.shtml
This is very interesting - you might like to go to this site/page first?
http://www.tombofjesus.com/Conclusion.htm
But for christian believers, who believe that the bible is 100% factual
and absolutely true with no errors whatsoever - they won't even bother
to look up the above references - but instantly dismiss it as
'work of the devil!'
Such is the openmindedness of christians....?
The above references are not a load of crap.
Harvey
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| User: "M. Ranjit Mathews" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
27 Apr 2004 11:01:13 PM |
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Your Name Here=Harvey <you@somewhere.not.aus> wrote ...
Libetarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth says...
Not-easily-duped wrote:
"Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote ...
"Not-easily-duped" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote ...
Why does the so-called modern man think that he
knows better than the ancients?
It's called "progress".
No! this is not progress, true progress builds on the wisdom of the past
as the bible says.
===>It does.
With the correct understanding of that wisdom, not
by idolizing fairy tales.
Picture the differences between then and now.
If Jesus lived today and went through the motions that is suppose to have
happened, how different would the story be? More accurate? More detailed?
Live video footage?
Live footage if he's sufficiently famous, but is news appearing on TV
necessarily accurate or detailed? It can just as easily be inaccurate
and sketchy.
Now take yourself back to the time it happened.
Take for granted that it did happen as reported in the bible.
Paul reports that Jesus was born by the seed of David according to the
flesh. Certain other parties report that he was born in certain other
ways. So, which would one take for granted - that Jesus was born by
artificial insemination using David's sperm or that Jesus was born by
immaculate conception?
How would that have been recorded?
How would it be preserved?
How did it actually get preserved.
Please summarise this in exact explicit detail please, so that we all will
know, how exactly did it happen? This recording.
And what are the many problems with such a recording?
How can it ever be verified and confirmed?
Why don't we have all the details, if it was as miraculous an event
as claimed?
Why after the fact, that it happened, is there this passionate belief that
it did happen?
What did the authors of the Didache believe happened?
Why don't we have all the supporting evidence that it happened,
precisely as recorded?
Shall we simply put it down, that people were not as literate back then?
That mass communication was non-existant.
Harvey
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
28 Apr 2004 03:30:15 AM |
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"M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in
Paul reports that Jesus was born by the seed of David
according to the flesh. Certain other parties report that
he was born in certain other ways. So, which would
one take for granted - that Jesus was born by artificial
insemination using David's sperm or that Jesus was born
by immaculate conception?
The doctrine of "Immaculate Conception" is the dogma that Mary
was born free of original sin. The doctrine of the "Virgin
Birth" is the dogma that Mary was a virgin during and after the
conception and birth of Jesus.
Both concepts are absurd.
--
Wax
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
28 Apr 2004 11:04:39 AM |
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Weatherwax wrote:
"M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in
Paul reports that Jesus was born by the seed of David
according to the flesh. Certain other parties report that
he was born in certain other ways. So, which would
one take for granted - that Jesus was born by artificial
insemination using David's sperm or that Jesus was born
by immaculate conception?
The doctrine of "Immaculate Conception" is the dogma that Mary
was born free of original sin. The doctrine of the "Virgin
Birth" is the dogma that Mary was a virgin during and after the
conception and birth of Jesus.
Both concepts are absurd.
===>Believers are like the Queen in Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll, who said, “Why, sometimes I’ve believed
as many as six impossible things before breakfast.” -- L.
--
Wax
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
28 Apr 2004 10:55:36 AM |
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"M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
What did the authors of the Didache believe happened?
===>That is hard to determine, but the EBIONITES,
Jewish followers of Jesus and later his brother James,
insisted that Jesus was an ordinary human being,
natural son of his human father,
but specially chosen by YHWH.
This is also clearly reflected in ACTS 2:22,
a statement attributed to Peter by the author.
It says he was a MAN, an INSTRUMENT of "God".
BTW, the Ebionites also considered Saul/Paul a LIAR and
a TRAITOR. -- L.
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
27 Apr 2004 11:31:30 PM |
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M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
Your Name Here=Harvey <you@somewhere.not.aus> wrote ...
Libetarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth says...
Not-easily-duped wrote:
"Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote ...
"Not-easily-duped" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com>
wrote ...
Why does the so-called modern man think that he
knows better than the ancients?
It's called "progress".
No! this is not progress, true progress builds on
the wisdom of the past as the bible says.
===>It does. With the correct understanding of that
wisdom, not by idolizing fairy tales.
Picture the differences between then and now. If Jesus
lived today and went through the motions that is
suppose to have happened, how different would the story
be? More accurate? More detailed? Live video footage?
Live footage if he's sufficiently famous, but is news
appearing on TV necessarily accurate or detailed? It can
just as easily be inaccurate and sketchy.
Now take yourself back to the time it happened. Take
for granted that it did happen as reported in the
bible.
Paul reports that Jesus was born by the seed of David
according to the flesh.
I swear; I had nothing to do with it.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "M. Ranjit Mathews" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
28 Apr 2004 08:58:31 PM |
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"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote ...
M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
Your Name Here=Harvey <you@somewhere.not.aus> wrote ...
Now take yourself back to the time it happened. Take
for granted that it did happen as reported in the
bible.
Paul reports that Jesus was born by the seed of David
according to the flesh.
I swear; I had nothing to do with it.
Tough luck! You'll just have to take a shot at the second coming, then.
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
28 Apr 2004 09:31:55 PM |
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M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote ...
M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
Your Name Here=Harvey <you@somewhere.not.aus> wrote
...
Now take yourself back to the time it happened.
Take for granted that it did happen as reported in
the bible.
Paul reports that Jesus was born by the seed of David
according to the flesh.
I swear; I had nothing to do with it.
Tough luck! You'll just have to take a shot at the second
coming, then.
Anyone have some spare Viagra?
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
24 Apr 2004 02:32:28 AM |
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Your Name Here=Harvey wrote:
Picture the differences between then and now.
If Jesus lived today and went through the motions that is suppose to have
happened, how different would the story be? More accurate? More detailed?
Live video footage?
Moslt likely
Now take yourself back to the time it happened.
Take for granted that it did happen as reported in the bible.
How would that have been recorded?
How would it be preserved?
Government officilas would have mentioned it, people would have wrote
about it in their letters home
How did it actually get preserved.
Please summarise this in exact explicit detail please, so that we all will
know, how exactly did it happen? This recording.
And what are the many problems with such a recording?
How can it ever be verified and confirmed?
Yes, by the many secular accountsthat would arise
Why don't we have all the details, if it was as miraculous an event
as claimed?
There is no logical reason
Why after the fact, that it happened, is there this passionate belief that
it did happen? Why don't we have all the supporting evidence that it happened,
precisely as recorded?
Shall we simply put it down, that people were not as literate back then?
That mass communication was non-existant.
No, as that would not explain the lack of verification and the total
lack opf any mention at the time of these events
--
#1636
Not BAAWA
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| User: "M. Ranjit Mathews" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
28 Apr 2004 04:38:28 AM |
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(Not-easily-duped) wrote ...
"Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote ...
"Not-easily-duped" < > wrote ...
So you did not even bother to read the Acts of the
Apostles and the Scriptures that Peter quoted to make
the point that Jesus'resurrection was
in harmony with the previous prdictions. SHAME ON YOU
"Acts of the Apostles"? That is the New Testament. Your claim
The Acts of the Apostles is one of the books of the New Convenant
is that the "Jewish Scripture" make the statements. You haven't
pointed out any Jewish Scriptures. Probably because they are not
in the Jewish Scriptures. Read Psalm 16 yourself.
Peter said David is dead and buried but being a prophet he was prophecising
about the resurrected Messiah.
If I can not trust Peter then who am I?
If you cannot trust Peter, then you're not so easily duped:->
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| User: "Not-easily-duped" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
10 Apr 2004 02:14:11 PM |
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"Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote in message news:<15hdc.60734$He5.1162090@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
"Not-easily-duped" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in >
So you did not even bother to read the Acts of the
Apostles and the Scriptures that Peter quoted to make
the point that Jesus'resurrection was
in harmony with the previous prdictions. SHAME ON YOU
"Acts of the Apostles"? That is the New Testament. Your claim
is that the "Jewish Scripture" make the statements. You haven't
pointed out any Jewish Scriptures. Probably because they are not
in the Jewish Scriptures. Read Psalm 16 yourself.
It is for the jews to make that point and not you. Yours is to operate
as a referee without partiality and ask the jewish what time their Messiah
was supposed to come? Why they were scattered and why they are being brought
back into that Land? Does them being scattered have anything to do with
Deut 18:15 and Jesus?
Why do they expect another Messiah than the one
Islam and Catholicism claim as the one?
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
08 Apr 2004 03:30:44 PM |
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Not-easily-duped wrote:
Rather than ranting, why don't you prove that Libertarious is
wrong by pointing out where the Jewish Scriptures say that the
Messiah is "to be born just like everybody except for sin."
While you are at it, you can point out where the Jewish
Scriptures say that the Messiah has to rise from the dead.
So you did not even bother to read the Acts of the Apostles and the
Scriptures that Peter quoted to make the point that Jesus'resurrection was
in harmony with the previous prdictions. SHAME ON YOU\
===>Shame on YOU, Nitwit, for dodging the question.
Also, for attributing it to PETER, when it is clearly stated that
it was PAUL who was rudely invading their Sabbath worship,
ALLEGING those falsehoods, "as his manner was"!!!
IOW, he had NO MANNERS!
Acts 17:2-3
"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them,
and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Opening and alleging,
that Christ must needs have suffered,
and risen again from the dead"
Later on he is said to have repeated those lies, "as his manner was"
SEE: Acts 26:22-23
"...I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great,
saying none other things than those which the prophets
and Moses did say should come:
That Christ should suffer,
[and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead,
and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles"
NOWHERE is there any such thing anywhere
in "the prophets and Moses"!
Of course he also wrote: (Romans 3:7)
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded
through my lie
unto his glory;
why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"
Christianity is based on the teachings of a self-professed LIAR!
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| User: "Not-easily-duped" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
10 Apr 2004 02:07:16 PM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<4075B674.E045BBF0@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
Not-easily-duped wrote:
Rather than ranting, why don't you prove that Libertarious is
wrong by pointing out where the Jewish Scriptures say that the
Messiah is "to be born just like everybody except for sin."
While you are at it, you can point out where the Jewish
Scriptures say that the Messiah has to rise from the dead.
So you did not even bother to read the Acts of the Apostles and the
Scriptures that Peter quoted to make the point that Jesus'resurrection was
in harmony with the previous prdictions. SHAME ON YOU\
===>Shame on YOU, Nitwit, for dodging the question.
Also, for attributing it to PETER, when it is clearly stated that
Paul never quoted the psaum of David to make the point. it was Peter, jerk.
I am skipping the rest of your garbage.
it was PAUL who was rudely invading their Sabbath worship,
ALLEGING those falsehoods, "as his manner was"!!!
IOW, he had NO MANNERS!
Acts 17:2-3
"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them,
and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Opening and alleging,
that Christ must needs have suffered,
and risen again from the dead"
Later on he is said to have repeated those lies, "as his manner was"
SEE: Acts 26:22-23
"...I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great,
saying none other things than those which the prophets
and Moses did say should come:
That Christ should suffer,
[and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead,
and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles"
NOWHERE is there any such thing anywhere
in "the prophets and Moses"!
Of course he also wrote: (Romans 3:7)
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded
through my lie
unto his glory;
why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"
Christianity is based on the teachings of a self-professed LIAR!
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
10 Apr 2004 05:35:46 PM |
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"Not-easily-duped" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in
< CLIP >
Paul never quoted the psaum of David to make the
point. it was Peter, jerk.
I am skipping the rest of your garbage.
If that is what said, then Peter was lying.
Following a partial quote of Psalm 16, Peter is reported as
saying:
Acts
2:29 "Brothers, I can speak confidently to you
about our forefather David, that he both died and
was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 2:30
So then, because he was a prophet and knew that
God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of
his descendants on his throne,55 2:31 David by
foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the
Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades,
nor did his body experience decay.
Now take a look at the Psalm David is referring to, but all of
it, and from the Old Testament, not from Acts.
Psalm 16
A prayer of David.
Protect me, O God, for I have taken shelter in you.
I say to the Lord, "You are the sovereign Master,
my only source of well-being."
As for God's chosen people who are in the land,
and the leading officials I admired so much-
their troubles multiply,
they desire other gods.
I will not pour out drink offerings of blood to their gods,
nor will I make vows in the name of their gods.
Lord, you give me stability and prosperity;
you make my future secure.
It is as if I have been given fertile fields
or received a beautiful tract of land.
I will praise the Lord who guides me;
yes, during the night I reflect and learn.
I constantly trust in the Lord;
because he is at my right hand,
I will not be upended.
So my heart rejoices
and I am happy;
My life is safe.
You will not abandon me to Sheol;
you will not allow your faithful follower to see the Pit.
You lead me in the path of life;
I experience absolute joy in your presence;
you always give me sheer delight.
Taken as a whole (with verse numbers removed) the poem is
properly understood. It is not a prophecy. It is not about a
messiah. Is says nothing about a resurrection, or being raised
from the dead.
--
Wax
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