| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Libertarius" |
| Date: |
01 Apr 2004 09:54:17 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Have you read much about the Roman flamines? If so, what do you think
happened to them? Did they simply turn into bishops?
===>If they converted.
To what? They were already part of the Roman religious structure
in the first place. Do you know of any writings which talk about any
of the flamines being killed because they refused to convert to
some new religion? Before the council of Nicea, or after?
===>Here is one quick reference:
Paganism and Pagan Survivals in Spain up to the Fall of the Visgothic Kingdom
http://libro.uca.edu/mckenna/pagan2.htm
"A problem closely connected with idolatry arose in regard to the Christian
flamines. (11) As was mentioned in the previous chapter, Spain had been very
devoted to
the imperial cult and in practically every town of any size there was to be
found a priest who presided over the worship of the emperors. In practice
civil and religious
functions were inseparable in the pagan Roman administration and Christians
could not hold office without coming in contact with the pagan religion as a
part of their
official duties. The bishops of Elvira were forced to express their attitude
on the question whether a Christian could accept the office of flamen without
giving up his
membership in the Church. Three canons of the council dealt with this
difficult problem. A Christian flamen who took part in the pagan sacrifices
and in the "murder"
and "immorality" which accompanied them was to be perpetually excluded from
the Church. (12) [31] The Christian flamen, therefore, according to this
decision was
absolutely forbidden to participate in pagan worship under the severest
ecclesiastical penalty. The "murder" and "immorality" to which the council
referred probably
meant the gladiatorial combats and scenic presentations furnished to the
people for bestowing the office. (13) A flamen, however, who abstained from
all sacrifice
during his term of office (generally one year), but who at his own expense
paid for the gladiatorial combats and theatrical performances was to be
readmitted to the
Church at the end of his life if he performed the prescribed penance. (14)
The last canon that concerned the flamines was to the effect that the
imperial flamen who
continued to wear the "crown" but abstained from all idolatrous worship, was
to be admitted to the Church after a period of penance lasting two years.
(15) The
"crown" was the head-gear worn by the flamen during his term of office (16)
and which he was permitted to wear when his official duties were over. (17)
The above
regulations prove that it was only with the greatest difficulty that a man
could assume the duties of flamen and not be perpetually excluded from the
Church. The fact,
however, that one who held this office could at times avoid the duty of
offering sacrifice shows that the imperial cult in Spain was losing its
religious character and
becoming a civil function. (18)
(The corresponding footnotes:
11.On the Christian flamines, cf. L. Duchesne, "Le concile d'Elvire et les
flamines chrétiens," Mélanges Renier, Bibliothèque de l'école pratique des
hautes études,
LXXIII (1887), 160-174.
12."Flamines qui post fidem lavacri et regenerationis sacrificaverunt, eo
quod geminaverint scelera, accedente homicidio, vel triplicaverint facinus,
cohaerente
moechia, placuit eos nec in finem accipere communionem."--Canon 2.
13.That the word homicidium in this canon meant the gladiatorial combats is
the opinion of Duchesne, op. cit., p. 170; Beurlier, Le culte impérial, p.
279, and H.
Leclercq, "Flamines chrétiens," DACL, V, ii. 1649. Cf. the inscription (C. I.
L., II, 5523) found at Cordova, "edito ob honorem flaminatus munere
gladiatorio."
14."Item flamines, qui non immolaverint, sed munus tantum dederint, eo quod
se a funestis abstinuerint sacrificiis, placuit in finem eis praestare
communionem, acta
tamen legitima poenitentia." - Canon 3.
15."Sacerdotes, qui tantum coronas portant nec sacrificant nec de suis
sumptibus aliquid ad idola praestant, placuit post biennium accipere
communionem." - Canon
55.
16.Tertullian, De idolatria, chap. 18, speaks of the "corona" which the
priest of the imperial cult wore; cf. Thesaurus linguae latinae, IV, 984, 7.
17.Beurlier, op. cit., pp. 184-188.
18."Le concile n'interdit pas absolument le Flaminat; il se contente de
porter des peines contre l'exercice des deux principales de cette charge: le
sacrifice et la
célébration des jeux." - Duchesne, op. cit., p. 170. Cf. J. Zeiller, "La vie
chrétienne," Fliche et Martin, Histoire de l'église, II, 430, n. 2: "A partir
du IVe siècle, le
flaminat entièrement sécularisé, malgré la contradiction interne qu'implique
une telle situation, devient une dignité, qu'il parut tout a fait aux
chrétiens d'accepter."
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
02 Apr 2004 07:41:18 AM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Have you read much about the Roman flamines? If so, what do you think
happened to them? Did they simply turn into bishops?
===>If they converted.
To what? They were already part of the Roman religious structure
in the first place. Do you know of any writings which talk about any
of the flamines being killed because they refused to convert to
some new religion? Before the council of Nicea, or after?
===>Here is one quick reference:
Paganism and Pagan Survivals in Spain up to the Fall of the Visgothic Kingdom
http://libro.uca.edu/mckenna/pagan2.htm
The last canon that concerned the flamines was to the effect that the
imperial flamen who continued to wear the "crown" but abstained from
all idolatrous worship, was to be admitted to the Church after a period
of penance lasting two years. (15) The "crown" was the head-gear worn
by the flamen during his term of office (16) and which he was permitted
to wear when his official duties were over.
Sounds like the same type thing as the funny hats the people in
the RCC wear to me. The practice goes back as far as 100 BCE as
far as I can tell.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Roger Pearse" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
03 Apr 2004 03:09:36 AM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<406CE3E9.474007DD@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Have you read much about the Roman flamines? If so, what do you think
happened to them? Did they simply turn into bishops?
===>If they converted.
To what? They were already part of the Roman religious structure
in the first place. Do you know of any writings which talk about any
of the flamines being killed because they refused to convert to
some new religion? Before the council of Nicea, or after?
===>Here is one quick reference:
Paganism and Pagan Survivals in Spain up to the Fall of the Visgothic Kingdom
http://libro.uca.edu/mckenna/pagan2.htm
This is very interesting, and many thanks for the link. The book is a
piece of serious scholarship, as we can see from the approach to
footnoting.
I find that an English version of the canons of that council is online
at http://www.bu.edu/religion/courses/syllabi/rn301/canons.htm.
I was vaguely aware of a case of Christians holding the post of flamen
in the civic cults -- and the church's hostility to it -- but had not
recalled the link with the Council of Elvira.
McKenna makes this key point:
"The fact, however, that one who held this office could at times avoid
the duty of offering sacrifice shows that the imperial cult in Spain
was losing its religious character and becoming a civil function."
I'm sure we all remember that Julius Caesar held official posts as a
priest.
This seems to have been the problem that state paganism faced, even
before Christianity had arrived. It was unnecessary to believe in any
of it, and every year fewer did. But this was not its function, and
did not matter. What seems to have counted was whether or not the
rituals were gone through -- like servicing a nuclear power station,
that otherwise might explode and destroy the nation. And it kept the
society together. This is why poets telling myths was, in essence,
unimportant. There was no theology by which the Greeks agreed to
believe in Zeus. Popular belief and hope of individual aspirations
was instead increasingly attached to cults such as the mystery
religions such as Isis.
I think that the term religion starts to lose useful meaning, if we
include such things in it as well as Christian and Moslem attitudes
(although what other term we use, I do not know). In the one, ritual
or civil conformity is all, belief nothing; in the other belief is
all, and ritual and which social class you belong to nothing. In
practise the latter class tends to drift toward the former, as we all
know.
I believe that Caesarius of Arles in the 6th century records rural
dwellers still offering sacrifices to the Olympian gods, if you want
an example of persistence. I don't have a reference, tho -- I vaguely
recall reading it somewhere. I don't know of a public domain
translation of his works, but modern ones exist.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
03 Apr 2004 05:20:22 AM |
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(Roger Pearse) wrote in alt.atheism
I think that the term religion starts to lose useful meaning, if we
include such things in it as well as Christian and Moslem attitudes
(although what other term we use, I do not know).
They're all the same. All pagan rituals. If you decide to demonize
the "pagans" then you're only demonizing yourself.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Roger Pearse" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
03 Apr 2004 01:54:03 PM |
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Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<pb7t60lfp3hjkuahtl68btganpo2t781bk@4ax.com>...
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk (Roger Pearse) wrote in alt.atheism
I think that the term religion starts to lose useful meaning, if we
include such things in it as well as Christian and Moslem attitudes
(although what other term we use, I do not know).
They're all the same. All pagan rituals. If you decide to demonize
the "pagans" then you're only demonizing yourself.
Did you understand my point? If so, I don't understand yours.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
03 Apr 2004 02:25:45 PM |
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(Roger Pearse) wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote
(Roger Pearse) wrote in alt.atheism
I think that the term religion starts to lose useful meaning, if we
include such things in it as well as Christian and Moslem attitudes
(although what other term we use, I do not know).
They're all the same. All pagan rituals. If you decide to demonize
the "pagans" then you're only demonizing yourself.
Did you understand my point?
Maybe not.
If so, I don't understand yours.
Guess we might be even, then.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
03 Apr 2004 11:16:03 AM |
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Roger Pearse wrote:
I believe that Caesarius of Arles in the 6th century records rural
dwellers still offering sacrifices to the Olympian gods, if you want
an example of persistence. I don't have a reference, tho -- I vaguely
recall reading it somewhere. I don't know of a public domain
translation of his works, but modern ones exist.
===>Shamanistic practices have continued until modern times.
E.g. "the seventh-century St Aldhelm is reported to have been horrified by
revellers wearing animal costumes, espcially stags. Around 700
the Archbishop of Canterbury, Theodore, in his Penitential
book, stipulates:
'To those who go about at the Kalends of January garbed as a
stag or an old woman, taking the form of beasts, clad in thes kin
of beasts and assuming the heads of beasts; who
transform themselves into animals, three years penence, for the
thing is devilish.' [13]
These tirades continued. In 915 Regino of Prun was still
moaning that people were going about on New Year's Day
dressed as stags and calves and urged them to repent.
Burchard of Worms, in 1024, ordered 30 days penance on bread
and water for those who put on stag or calf disguises. Yet still in
the fourteenth century we find depictions of people dressed in
animal masks [14]; indeed the practice has continued on one
form or another into modern times."
http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/Oxhide1.htm
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
03 Apr 2004 02:35:13 PM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Roger Pearse wrote:
I believe that Caesarius of Arles in the 6th century records rural
dwellers still offering sacrifices to the Olympian gods, if you want
an example of persistence. I don't have a reference, tho -- I vaguely
recall reading it somewhere. I don't know of a public domain
translation of his works, but modern ones exist.
===>Shamanistic practices have continued until modern times.
E.g. "the seventh-century St Aldhelm is reported to have been horrified
by revellers wearing animal costumes, espcially stags. Around 700
the Archbishop of Canterbury, Theodore, in his Penitential
book, stipulates:
Don't know about you, but I consider the "blessings" that the
modern Catholic priests give to certain things as "pagan" or
"shamanistic" practices. They have managed to convince
many of the Catholics that the Jesus wafers and wine actually
turn into real flesh and blood, through some chanting or
magic ritual performed by the priests over the wafers and wine.
To claim that Christianity doesn't contain any "pagan" or
"shamanistic" elements at all is an outright lie, imo.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
03 Apr 2004 08:30:55 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:tg7u60loprahl95oc87b6ek4npdj0ue8gq@4ax.com...
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Roger Pearse wrote:
I believe that Caesarius of Arles in the 6th century records rural
dwellers still offering sacrifices to the Olympian gods, if you want
an example of persistence. I don't have a reference, tho -- I vaguely
recall reading it somewhere. I don't know of a public domain
translation of his works, but modern ones exist.
===>Shamanistic practices have continued until modern times.
E.g. "the seventh-century St Aldhelm is reported to have been horrified
by revellers wearing animal costumes, espcially stags. Around 700
the Archbishop of Canterbury, Theodore, in his Penitential
book, stipulates:
Don't know about you, but I consider the "blessings" that the
modern Catholic priests give to certain things as "pagan" or
"shamanistic" practices. They have managed to convince
many of the Catholics that the Jesus wafers and wine actually
turn into real flesh and blood, through some chanting or
magic ritual performed by the priests over the wafers and wine.
To claim that Christianity doesn't contain any "pagan" or
"shamanistic" elements at all is an outright lie, imo.
Indeed !
http://www.jamesarthur.net/mm.html
:)
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
03 Apr 2004 02:56:01 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Roger Pearse wrote:
I believe that Caesarius of Arles in the 6th century records rural
dwellers still offering sacrifices to the Olympian gods, if you want
an example of persistence. I don't have a reference, tho -- I vaguely
recall reading it somewhere. I don't know of a public domain
translation of his works, but modern ones exist.
===>Shamanistic practices have continued until modern times.
E.g. "the seventh-century St Aldhelm is reported to have been horrified
by revellers wearing animal costumes, espcially stags. Around 700
the Archbishop of Canterbury, Theodore, in his Penitential
book, stipulates:
Don't know about you, but I consider the "blessings" that the
modern Catholic priests give to certain things as "pagan" or
"shamanistic" practices. They have managed to convince
many of the Catholics that the Jesus wafers and wine actually
turn into real flesh and blood, through some chanting or
magic ritual performed by the priests over the wafers and wine.
To claim that Christianity doesn't contain any "pagan" or
"shamanistic" elements at all is an outright lie, imo.
===>The Protestants eliminated a lot of the hocus-pocus, but there
is still plenty of it left, and now the insanity of "tongues" is spreading
like an epidemic. -- L.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
05 Apr 2004 04:50:08 AM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in alt.atheism
Roger Pearse wrote:
I believe that Caesarius of Arles in the 6th century records rural
dwellers still offering sacrifices to the Olympian gods, if you want
an example of persistence. I don't have a reference, tho -- I vaguely
recall reading it somewhere. I don't know of a public domain
translation of his works, but modern ones exist.
===>Shamanistic practices have continued until modern times.
E.g. "the seventh-century St Aldhelm is reported to have been horrified
by revellers wearing animal costumes, espcially stags. Around 700
the Archbishop of Canterbury, Theodore, in his Penitential
book, stipulates:
Don't know about you, but I consider the "blessings" that the
modern Catholic priests give to certain things as "pagan" or
"shamanistic" practices. They have managed to convince
many of the Catholics that the Jesus wafers and wine actually
turn into real flesh and blood, through some chanting or
magic ritual performed by the priests over the wafers and wine.
To claim that Christianity doesn't contain any "pagan" or
"shamanistic" elements at all is an outright lie, imo.
===>The Protestants eliminated a lot of the hocus-pocus, but there
is still plenty of it left, and now the insanity of "tongues" is spreading
like an epidemic. -- L.
The RCC doesn't actually encourage it these days, does it?
I've noticed that exorcisms are being practiced by Protestants these
days, and the tables have somewhat reversed, because the RCC seems
to actually be more skeptical of them than the Protestants. Maybe
that's a mistaken impression or how it's always been?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
04 Apr 2004 09:11:56 AM |
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On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:56:01 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>The Protestants eliminated a lot of the hocus-pocus, but there
is still plenty of it left, and now the insanity of "tongues" is spreading
like an epidemic. -- L.
And what if you're wrong, lib?
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| User: "know-buddy" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? Yes, of course! |
04 Apr 2004 09:51:39 AM |
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Yes of course He exists. He lives in Rome, but travels the globe at the
speed of thought. Much of his work is done out of his physical body.
The world will soon see that this is so.
He'll soon be on the world stage - working to eradicate all of the false
dogma/interpretations of His original teachings.
Master surgery
A photograph of the Master Jesus helping a surgeon with his final exam.
http://simedia.org/new/signs/Jesus.htm
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| User: "yetti" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? Yes, of course! |
07 Apr 2004 11:35:12 PM |
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know-buddy <know-buddy@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<%hVbc.38189$3E1.6458@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
Yes of course He exists. He lives in Rome, but travels the globe at the
speed of thought. Much of his work is done out of his physical body.
The world will soon see that this is so.
He'll soon be on the world stage - working to eradicate all of the false
dogma/interpretations of His original teachings.
Master surgery
A photograph of the Master Jesus helping a surgeon with his final exam.
http://simedia.org/new/signs/Jesus.htm
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? Yes, of course! My tinfoil hat proves it. |
04 Apr 2004 08:02:58 PM |
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know-buddy wrote:
Yes of course He exists. He lives in Rome....
Then you should have no problem proving this.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "yetti" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? Yes, of course! My tinfoil hat proves it. |
07 Apr 2004 11:34:33 PM |
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"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<4eKdnTxD7JHYLe3dRVn-tA@sti.net>...
know-buddy wrote:
Yes of course He exists. He lives in Rome....
Then you should have no problem proving this.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
05 Apr 2004 12:30:42 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:56:01 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>The Protestants eliminated a lot of the hocus-pocus, but there
is still plenty of it left, and now the insanity of "tongues" is spreading
like an epidemic. -- L.
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
05 Apr 2004 04:34:23 PM |
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
message news:407197C2.31491806@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
duke wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:56:01 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>The Protestants eliminated a lot of the hocus-
pocus, but there
is still plenty of it left, and now the insanity of
"tongues"
is spreading like an epidemic. -- L.
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
That is only two of the possibilities.
What if the Protestants are right?
What if the Mormons are right?
What if the Jehovah Witnesses are right?
What if the Reverend Jim Jones was right?
What if Charles Manson was right?
What if Buddhism is right?
What if Islam is right?
What if Mithraism is right?
What if Judas Iscariot was right?
What if Socrates was right?
What if Pastor Dave is right?
What if Mohondes Gandhi was right?
What if Simon Magus was right?
What if Jainism is right?
What if Krishna was right?
What if Helena Blavasky was right?
What if Mary Baker Eddy was right?
What if the serpent in the garden of Eden was right?
What if . . .
Of course you realize that there is no end to this list don't
you?
So far I would say that Socrates, Mohondes Gandhi, and the snake
in the garden of Eden comes closest to being right.
--
Wax
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
05 Apr 2004 05:51:03 PM |
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On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:34:23 GMT, "Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote:
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
That is only two of the possibilities.
That's right - either you get the message to love one another as God loves you,
or you don't. The faith type is not important.
What if the Protestants are right?
What if the Mormons are right?
What if the Jehovah Witnesses are right?
What if the Reverend Jim Jones was right?
What if Charles Manson was right?
What if Buddhism is right?
What if Islam is right?
What if Mithraism is right?
What if Judas Iscariot was right?
What if Socrates was right?
What if Pastor Dave is right?
What if Mohondes Gandhi was right?
What if Simon Magus was right?
What if Jainism is right?
What if Krishna was right?
What if Helena Blavasky was right?
What if Mary Baker Eddy was right?
What if the serpent in the garden of Eden was right?
What if . . .
Of course you realize that there is no end to this list don't
you?
So far I would say that Socrates, Mohondes Gandhi, and the snake
in the garden of Eden comes closest to being right.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
05 Apr 2004 08:28:26 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:jko3705hs8l5nmja8f67k4kakdevu7tvp3@4ax.com...
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:34:23 GMT, "Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net>
wrote:
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
That is only two of the possibilities.
That's right - either you get the message to love one another as God loves
you,
or you don't. The faith type is not important.
Or you get the message to love one another ...without needing a "big sky
daddy" to tell you!
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
06 Apr 2004 01:11:17 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:34:23 GMT, "Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote:
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
That is only two of the possibilities.
That's right - either you get the message to love one another as God loves you,
or you don't. The faith type is not important.
Unless you worship the wrong one, then you suffer for it. God really
hates people worshiping false gods
--
#1636
Not BAAWA
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| User: "Invid Fan" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
08 Apr 2004 12:47:38 PM |
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In article <c4us5t$6ts$3@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, Ash
<Ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
duke wrote:
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:34:23 GMT, "Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net>
wrote:
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
That is only two of the possibilities.
That's right - either you get the message to love one another as God loves
you,
or you don't. The faith type is not important.
Unless you worship the wrong one, then you suffer for it. God really
hates people worshiping false gods
My take is that any God that would punish someone for not worshiping
him isn't worth worshiping.
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total *****. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
06 Apr 2004 11:51:06 AM |
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Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote in alt.atheism
What if Pastor Dave is right?
Oh, dear...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
06 Apr 2004 05:33:57 PM |
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Weatherwax wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
message news:407197C2.31491806@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
duke wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:56:01 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>The Protestants eliminated a lot of the hocus-
pocus, but there
is still plenty of it left, and now the insanity of
"tongues"
is spreading like an epidemic. -- L.
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
That is only two of the possibilities.
What if the Protestants are right?
What if the Mormons are right?
What if the Jehovah Witnesses are right?
What if the Reverend Jim Jones was right?
What if Charles Manson was right?
What if Buddhism is right?
What if Islam is right?
What if Mithraism is right?
What if Judas Iscariot was right?
What if Socrates was right?
What if Pastor Dave is right?
What if Mohondes Gandhi was right?
What if Simon Magus was right?
What if Jainism is right?
What if Krishna was right?
What if Helena Blavasky was right?
What if Mary Baker Eddy was right?
What if the serpent in the garden of Eden was right?
What if . . .
Of course you realize that there is no end to this list don't
you?
So far I would say that Socrates, Mohondes Gandhi, and the snake
in the garden of Eden comes closest to being right.
===>And we cannot be sure of either Socrates or the snake, since
all we have is hearsay.
Did Ganhi write his own material??? ;-) -- L.
.
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
07 Apr 2004 06:52:34 PM |
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
Weatherwax wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote > > >
duke wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:56:01 -0700, Libertarius
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
That is only two of the possibilities.
What if the Protestants are right?
What if the Mormons are right?
What if the Jehovah Witnesses are right?
What if the Reverend Jim Jones was right?
What if Charles Manson was right?
What if Buddhism is right?
What if Islam is right?
What if Mithraism is right?
What if Judas Iscariot was right?
What if Socrates was right?
What if Pastor Dave is right?
What if Mohondes Gandhi was right?
What if Simon Magus was right?
What if Jainism is right?
What if Krishna was right?
What if Helena Blavasky was right?
What if Mary Baker Eddy was right?
What if the serpent in the garden of Eden was right?
What if . . .
Of course you realize that there is no end to this list don't
you?
So far I would say that Socrates, Mohondes Gandhi,
and the snake in the garden of Eden comes closest
to being right.
===>And we cannot be sure of either Socrates or the
snake, since all we have is hearsay.
Did Ganhi write his own material??? ;-) -- L.
But the snake is the only one on the list that we know was right.
He spoke the truth.
Plato's "Apology" appears to be an attempt at an accurate
portrayal of Socretes, but the rest of Plato's writings are
fiction. Aristophanies does a parady on Socrates in "The
Clouds". Xenophon wrote his own version of Socrates trial. And
Thucydides refers to him in his history of the Polyponesian war.
So we have four independent contempoary witnesses who wrote about
him. Plus numerous ostaca with his name on them.
Gandhi was a prolific writer. He published his own newspaper,
made numerous speeches, and wrote his own autobiography.
--
Wax
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
07 Apr 2004 08:20:22 PM |
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Weatherwax wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
Weatherwax wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote > > >
duke wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:56:01 -0700, Libertarius
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
That is only two of the possibilities.
What if the Protestants are right?
What if the Mormons are right?
What if the Jehovah Witnesses are right?
What if the Reverend Jim Jones was right?
What if Charles Manson was right?
What if Buddhism is right?
What if Islam is right?
What if Mithraism is right?
What if Judas Iscariot was right?
What if Socrates was right?
What if Pastor Dave is right?
What if Mohondes Gandhi was right?
What if Simon Magus was right?
What if Jainism is right?
What if Krishna was right?
What if Helena Blavasky was right?
What if Mary Baker Eddy was right?
What if the serpent in the garden of Eden was right?
What if . . .
Of course you realize that there is no end to this list don't
you?
So far I would say that Socrates, Mohondes Gandhi,
and the snake in the garden of Eden comes closest
to being right.
===>And we cannot be sure of either Socrates or the
snake, since all we have is hearsay.
Did Ganhi write his own material??? ;-) -- L.
But the snake is the only one on the list that we know was right.
===>Not really.
The snake is SHOWN to have been right IN THE CONTEXT
of that story, but the story is clearly fictional. Nor did the snake
write anything that we can see today. We only know what the
author says the snake, Adam, Eve, YHWH ELOHIM, etc. said.
He spoke the truth.
Plato's "Apology" appears to be an attempt at an accurate
portrayal of Socretes, but the rest of Plato's writings are
fiction. Aristophanies does a parady on Socrates in "The
Clouds". Xenophon wrote his own version of Socrates trial. And
Thucydides refers to him in his history of the Polyponesian war.
So we have four independent contempoary witnesses who wrote about
him.
===>But WHAT did they write about him?
Is that all reliable information???
We have nothing that he wrote.
Plus numerous ostaca with his name on them.
Gandhi was a prolific writer. He published his own newspaper,
made numerous speeches, and wrote his own autobiography.
===>So, you don't think he had the usual speech writer? -- L.
.
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
08 Apr 2004 02:16:23 AM |
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
Weatherwax wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote > > >
Weatherwax wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth>
duke wrote:
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
That is only two of the possibilities.
What if the Protestants are right?
What if the Mormons are right?
What if the Jehovah Witnesses are right?
What if the Reverend Jim Jones was right?
What if Charles Manson was right?
What if Buddhism is right?
What if Islam is right?
What if Mithraism is right?
What if Judas Iscariot was right?
What if Socrates was right?
What if Pastor Dave is right?
What if Mohondes Gandhi was right?
What if Simon Magus was right?
What if Jainism is right?
What if Krishna was right?
What if Helena Blavasky was right?
What if Mary Baker Eddy was right?
What if the serpent in the garden of Eden was right?
What if . . .
Of course you realize that there is no end to this list
don't
you?
So far I would say that Socrates, Mohondes Gandhi,
and the snake in the garden of Eden comes closest
to being right.
===>And we cannot be sure of either Socrates or the
snake, since all we have is hearsay.
Did Ganhi write his own material??? ;-) -- L.
But the snake is the only one on the list that we know
was right.
He spoke the truth.
===>Not really.
The snake is SHOWN to have been right IN THE
CONTEXT of that story, but the story is clearly fictional.
Nor did the snake write anything that we can see today.
We only know what the author says the snake, Adam,
Eve, YHWH ELOHIM, etc. said.
I have been told that it's not important what your friends say
about you. What counts is what your enemy says about you. The
Garden of Eden story was certainly not written by the snakes
friends, but if they write such complimentary things about him,
there must be some truth to it.
I hope you are not taking me seriously.
Plato's "Apology" appears to be an attempt at an accurate
portrayal of Socretes, but the rest of Plato's writings are
fiction. Aristophanies does a parady on Socrates in "The
Clouds". Xenophon wrote his own version of Socrates
trial. And Thucydides refers to him in his history of the
Polyponesian war. So we have four independent
contempoary witnesses who wrote about him.
===>But WHAT did they write about him?
Is that all reliable information???
We have nothing that he wrote.
The people who wrote about Socrates knew that he was wise
becasuse he said that he was not wise. Of course he believed
that everybody else was stupid, which made him wiser than they
were, even though he was not wise. (I am not making this up.)
Plus numerous ostaca with his name on them.
Gandhi was a prolific writer. He published his
own newspaper, made numerous speeches, and
wrote his own autobiography.
===>So, you don't think he had the usual speech
writer? -- L.
There are not many speech writers who speak Hindi.
--
Wax
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
08 Apr 2004 09:57:06 AM |
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Weatherwax wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
Weatherwax wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote > > >
Weatherwax wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth>
duke wrote:
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
That is only two of the possibilities.
What if the Protestants are right?
What if the Mormons are right?
What if the Jehovah Witnesses are right?
What if the Reverend Jim Jones was right?
What if Charles Manson was right?
What if Buddhism is right?
What if Islam is right?
What if Mithraism is right?
What if Judas Iscariot was right?
What if Socrates was right?
What if Pastor Dave is right?
What if Mohondes Gandhi was right?
What if Simon Magus was right?
What if Jainism is right?
What if Krishna was right?
What if Helena Blavasky was right?
What if Mary Baker Eddy was right?
What if the serpent in the garden of Eden was right?
What if . . .
Of course you realize that there is no end to this list
don't
you?
So far I would say that Socrates, Mohondes Gandhi,
and the snake in the garden of Eden comes closest
to being right.
===>And we cannot be sure of either Socrates or the
snake, since all we have is hearsay.
Did Ganhi write his own material??? ;-) -- L.
But the snake is the only one on the list that we know
was right.
He spoke the truth.
===>Not really.
The snake is SHOWN to have been right IN THE
CONTEXT of that story, but the story is clearly fictional.
Nor did the snake write anything that we can see today.
We only know what the author says the snake, Adam,
Eve, YHWH ELOHIM, etc. said.
I have been told that it's not important what your friends say
about you. What counts is what your enemy says about you. The
Garden of Eden story was certainly not written by the snakes
friends, but if they write such complimentary things about him,
there must be some truth to it.
I hope you are not taking me seriously.
===>I do most of the time.
Plato's "Apology" appears to be an attempt at an accurate
portrayal of Socretes, but the rest of Plato's writings are
fiction. Aristophanies does a parady on Socrates in "The
Clouds". Xenophon wrote his own version of Socrates
trial. And Thucydides refers to him in his history of the
Polyponesian war. So we have four independent
contempoary witnesses who wrote about him.
===>But WHAT did they write about him?
Is that all reliable information???
We have nothing that he wrote.
The people who wrote about Socrates knew that he was wise
becasuse he said that he was not wise. Of course he believed
that everybody else was stupid, which made him wiser than they
were, even though he was not wise. (I am not making this up.)
Plus numerous ostaca with his name on them.
Gandhi was a prolific writer. He published his
own newspaper, made numerous speeches, and
wrote his own autobiography.
===>So, you don't think he had the usual speech
writer? -- L.
There are not many speech writers who speak Hindi.
===>REALLY?
(How many languages did he speak?) ;-) -- L.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
05 Apr 2004 05:49:05 PM |
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On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 11:30:42 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
duke wrote:
On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:56:01 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>The Protestants eliminated a lot of the hocus-pocus, but there
is still plenty of it left, and now the insanity of "tongues" is spreading
like an epidemic. -- L.
And what if you're wrong, lib?
===>And what if I am correct, Baby Dukie?
If you are correct, I spent a good portion of my lifetime enjoying the love and
fellowship of the Christian world. And recognizing that God exists, I look
forward to an eternity of peace and love with God in life after life.
Now, If I am correct, shame on you.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Does jesus exist? -- DELUSION |
04 Apr 2004 09:11:05 AM |
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On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 20:35:13 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
Don't know about you, but I consider the "blessings" that the
modern Catholic priests give to certain things as "pagan" or
"shamanistic" practices. They have managed to convince
many of the Catholics that the Jesus wafers and wine actually
turn into real flesh and blood, through some chanting or
magic ritual performed by the priests over the wafers and wine.
That's what Jesus said.
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