On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 19:05:09 -0400, "Baba Dadá"
<penny_lane@nospam.hotbox.ru> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hpt6f1hgqecsdhv5spm32uad9m28qb0lbd@4ax.com...
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:42:53 -0400, "Baba Dadá"
<penny_lane@nospam.hotbox.ru> spake thusly:
So I take it you subscribe to the pre-trib rapture
hypothesis huh? That would still put you here
for the first three and a half years.
...Wishful thinking. But I hope you're right. Some
of my best friends are looking forward to that rapture.
It is not taught by the Bible though.
Go fishing elsewhere Dave. I don't do circular logic.
There's a couple of variables missing from the equation
which your position proposes. No, I don't care to state
Book Chapter and Verse. If you dare to call yourself a
Pastor publicly then you must know the parts I mean
much better than I, and I'm sure I've seen several others
in this group state them precisely, but you just ignored them.
Not true. I respond directly. Folks like you,
which you are proving again now, are unable
to support your position and you think that
just saying the name of a verse proves
something, as if the whole world must now
bow down to your understanding of it.
The Bible does not teach a rapture, period.
------------------>
I'll humor you a bit just this once, only because as usual, you're
attempting to put words in the mouth of others.
NOWHERE, have I said that I believe in a Rapture.
As a matter of fact, I've argued extensively against the belief in a Rapture
being
Biblically based.
Had you actually read what you replied to
you would have seen that I say "wishful thinking" in reference to
a pre trib rapture. But apparently you were too busy frothing at the mouth
at the thought of another victim to
"discern" the meaning of my simple statement.
That doesn't surprise me. You habitually miss what other people say.
You attacked me, when I said that the Bible
does not teach a Rapture. Let's not forget.
Furthermore, your debating techniques are nothing
more than cheap entrapment and I don't like to play
by anybody else's rules except Robert's, especially
if they make them up and/or change them as they
go like you seem to.
I'm calling you a liar. Prove your accusation.
--------------------->
Read your own writing. And go ***** yourself with the liar bit *****.
In other words, you cannot prove your accusation
and now you use foul language and curse at me.
The sure sign of a Christian. (:
And this, because I demanded that you prove
your own accusation. Thanks for proving you
lied though.
U'm not beyond driving up to Tampa to se whehter you have the cojones to
call me that to my face.
And now you wish to try to attack me physically.
Let it be noted how angry this young man is,
because he falsely accused someone of
something and could not back it up.
I speak as I speak. Whether typing, or in person.
Before starting each formal debate, I have posted
rules that were fair to both sides and were open
---------------------->
*****!
Prove it. I can provide posts of posting rules.
You are lying again.
You start out phishing like you did this thread, then if you get a
bite,
after you insult your victim (and attempt to discredit their personal
interpretation of Scripture)
So in other words, in your mind, it is I who have been
insulting you. That's an interesting take.
I agree with you only in that I believe that Jesus
in on Earth in the hearts of all those who believe
in Him, but I also believe that Scripture states
that He will come and Reign physically on Earth.
I don't wish to debate that and I demand that
you respect that.
I do not respect false teaching. You claim it is
in the Scriptures. Where? Show me one verse
in which the Bible says that Jesus will reign on
Earth, physically. And if you can't, then why do
you believe it?
--------------------->
You don't get it do you? I don't have to prove my beliefs to you.
"...and be ready always to give an answer to every man
that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..."
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy
angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Come to where?
Daniel 7:13-14
13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like
the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,
and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought
him near before him.
14) And there was given him dominion, and glory,
and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages,
should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting
dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom
that which shall not be destroyed.
Note: Came *TO* the Ancient of Days, who is
the Father, who is in Heaven.
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall
separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the
goats:
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on
the left
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a
son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and
the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his
kingdom there shall be no end
Ok, that doesn't say 1000 years, it says "no end"...
Now where does any of this say, "on Earth"?
You ignored Luke 17:20-21. Jesus said clearly
that the kingdom would not be physical. We
would not be able to point at it. How then,
can it be Earthly?
See below.
Thessalonians II 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord
Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
Thessalonians II 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not
God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Thessalonians II 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from
the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Thessalonians II 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and
to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was
believed) in that day.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all
nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his
throne.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices
in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our
Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Ok,it doesn't say "1000 years"...it says "for ever and ever"
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he
that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth
judge and make war.
Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many
crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his
name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he
should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he
treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,
KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a
loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come
and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of
captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them
that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small
and great.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their
armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and
against his army.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet
that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had
received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone
So Nero did battle with the King of Kings and Lord of Hosts huh?
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was
given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their
foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a
thousand years
1000 Years, ummm
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand
years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1000 Years, ummm
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be
priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
1000 Years, ummm
That was about as explicit as it comes, but no doubt you want to change
Scripture so that it supports you posit. Oh you want symbolic interpretation
now? Changing the rules "Pastor"?
Go ahead and fall back on man made studies about "fictions", it still
doesn't change what it says, without symbolic interpretation.
You consistently disregard that the man Jesus could claim His Crown based
only on the authority given Him by Old Testament prophecy.
He either was or was not the promised Immanuel who would be Messiac and sit
on the Throne of David.
If you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, it is a given that you
must accept Old Testament prophecy.
Jesus Christ was allegedly crucified, died, rose form the dead and is seated
at the Father's Throne. He is not seated on the throne of David, and must be
in order for the prophecy to be entirely correct.
Now for the Old Testament.
I'll leave out all of Psalms since as songs to God you could argue that they
aren't the Words of God.
My favorite :
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of
the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall
be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to
the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will
teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall
go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many
people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears
into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither
shall they learn war any more.
Ummm, Swords into plowshare...nation shall not lift up sword against
nation...and all this happened when?
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of
Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no
end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to
establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Symbolic interpretation? Out of context?
It says "throne of David".
Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when
the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before
his ancients gloriously.
It says He shall reign in Jerusalem.
Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto
David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall
execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Joel 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my
holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers
pass through her any more.
The Lord dwelling in His Holy Mountain..holy Jerusalem!
Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of
the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and
it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to
the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will
teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go
forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Micah 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations
afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears
into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither
shall they learn war any more.
..neither shall they learn war anymore...
Zechariah 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zechariah 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and
shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt
know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zechariah 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy
land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
..dwell in the midst of thee. I'll cut you some slack and let you interpret
that as "dwelling in the Spirit"
Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day
shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
I guess you'll claim that He'll be ruling from His base in Heaven.
I guess I'll claim that like a typical end timer,
you can't support your position. None of these
passages say, "I will be ruling on Earth".
All you did, as is typical with end timers, is to
quote passages and pretend that the whole
universe *MUST* see them as you do, why?
Well, just because you quoted them, that's
why. You see, you're the king of the world,
aren't you?
If you wish to make a case, then quote a passage
and give your explanation of what YOU THINK
it means AND WHY.
What you actually did, was to try to post a bunch
of passages, figuring you could do ZERO work
and then tie me up for days, trying to refute it
and then you could claim, since you didn't actually
say anything yourself, that I was trying to refute
Scripture itself. Back to the "king of the world"
statement above. I'm on to your little game.
Here, let's try your approach. Here is my rebuttal.
Revelation 1:1 - 22:21
I will not make any comments. All I need to do, is
reference some passages and I win. After all, you
proved that this is how you like to play the game.
--
Pastor Dave
"If you believe what you like in the Gospel,
and reject what you like - it is not the Gospel
you believe, but yourselves." - St. Augustine
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
