| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Frank" |
| Date: |
04 Oct 2003 07:53:39 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Fundamentalism vs. Reformed. I am the latter. |
"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0310041226.30d47635@posting.google.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<z0vfb.6398$r96.1153@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
"trees40" <trees40xxx@knology.net> wrote in message
news:3F7DEB64.2060604@knology.net...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Did your god command "Thou shalt not kill" and then instructed
the
Jews
to kill the entire population and their animals of "the promised
land"?
"Thou shalt not murder" is what the commandment means. I would be
willing to bet that you do not believe what you seem to be implying,
"not kill" strictly, universally, and literally.
Show that the below is NOT murder. Your god is a monster and
certainly
not the God of Christ who is our ever loving Father which is in Heaven,
Abba, Daddy.
--
Pastor Frank
Moses in Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman, that hath known man by lying with
him.
But all the female children, that have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourself.
Re:19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he
that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness
he doth judge and make war.
Re:19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many
crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Re:19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his
name is called The Word of God.
Re:19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Re:19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he
should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
Re:19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,
KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Re:19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a
loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,
Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Re:19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of
captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of
them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond,
both small and great.
Re:19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their
armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the
horse, and against his army.
Re:19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that
wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had
received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re:19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat
upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the
fowls were filled with their flesh.
There is one God in three persons who does not change.
Does the above make Jesus a murderer, Frank? Isn't
the Lord going to put His enemies under His feet?
You failed to answer the question and did not show that YHWH the god of
the Jews commanded both "Do not kill", and then supposedly commanded the
murder of innocent women and children. See above quote of Moses in Numbers
31:17-18.
We all will be judged by the Royal Law and Golden Rule below, and all
your dispensationalist fantasies are not going to justify you. Anyone
killing another human being, or justifying such killing without repenting of
them, will NEVER see the Kingdom of Heaven, but will go were all such
self-justified killers are, and that may well include Calvin.
--
Pastor Frank
THE ROYAL LAW
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."
THE GOLDEN RULE
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."
---
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| User: "Jeff Shirton" |
|
| Title: Re: Fundamentalism vs. Reformed. I am the latter. |
05 Oct 2003 01:36:08 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:dpKfb.8567$GJ7.1443@nntp-post.primus.ca...
Did your god command "Thou shalt not kill" and then
instructed the Jews to kill the entire population and their
animals of "the promised land"?
Wow.
I hadn't realized that before.
So Frank, please clarify... Are you saying that you *reject* the Old
Testament
of the Bible, and "the god of the Old Testament"? I didn't realize that
when
you said earlier,
"I am a Fundamentalist, for I believe the NT to be God's
holy and inerrant Word, and His Holy Spirit the ONLY
source of revelation of the truth."
.... that you meant, "NT-only".
You *do* realize, I hope, that Jesus believed and preached the Old
Testament,
even the Torah, and His god was "the god of the Old Testament"? Doesn't
that concern you a little bit, Frank, that you apparently reject Jesus' god?
Show that the below is NOT murder. Your god is a monster
and certainly not the God of Christ who is our ever loving Father
which is in Heaven, Abba, Daddy.
God is *many* things, Frank.
He is Holy;
He is Love;
He is Just;
He is Merciful;
He is Jealous;
He is Strength;
He is Light;
But God *certainly* isn't the "pacifist" you seem to want to think He is.
I guess you didn't "get" the point "django" was trying to point out
by quoting the book of Revelation (do you accept and believe Revelation?
It's in the NT, right?), that God will fatally invoke justice to all the
reprobate in the last days.
[Rev. 19:11-21 deleted for brevity ]
There is one God in three persons who does not change.
Does the above make Jesus a murderer, Frank? Isn't
the Lord going to put His enemies under His feet?
You didn't answer these questions, Frank. Why is that?
Please answer these questions.
Do you believe and accept Revelation?
You failed to answer the question and did not show that YHWH
the god of the Jews commanded both "Do not kill", and then
supposedly commanded the murder of innocent women and children.
Um, Frank, *what* "innocent women and children"?
You appear to be *so* woefully ignorant of what the Bible teaches.
(I suppose I'll have to confine myself to quoting the NT. I hope
the KJV is adequate; if not, please look up the citations in your
translation.)
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise:
for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles,
that they are ALL UNDER SIN;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is NONE RIGHTEOUS, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none
that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together
become unprofitable; there is NONE THAT DOETH GOOD,
no, not one.
Rom 3:23 For ALL HAVE SINNED, and come short of the glory of God;
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded ALL UNDER SIN, that the
promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that
believe.
1Jo 1:8 IF WE SAY that we have NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES,
and the truth is not in us.
*ALL* have sinned, Frank. That's what the NT plainly teaches.
So there are none who are "innocent"
Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones,
and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with
him.
Here it is implied that the women are hardly "innocent", but are
being punished for the sin of adultery. Even if that's not the case,
they are sinners of *some* transgression(s), and according to
Rom. 6:23, etc. are justly sentenced to death.
Many commentaries on this passage cite Gen. 18:25:
Gen. 18:25 Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
But one is also reminded of Romans 9:
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,
Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same
lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make
his power known, endured with much longsuffering
the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory
on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared
unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only,
but also of the Gentiles?
You put yourself in a *very* precarious position, Frank, when you
presume to judge God, especially when you don't have all the facts.
You sound like someone who presumes to judge the Judge of a court
of Law who sentenced your friend or family member, when you weren't
even in the courtroom to hear the evidence presented.
If you want to claim that the objects of Num. 31:17-18 were "innocent",
then the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate such. And given
passages such as Rom. 3:9-12, 23, etc. and even the words of Jesus
Himself in Matt. 19:17, "there is none good but one, that is, God",
you will find yourself hard-pressed to do so.
We all will be judged by the Royal Law and Golden Rule below,
and all your dispensationalist fantasies are not going to justify you.
Are you claiming that God is bound to follow the same rules that we are?
We are not to murder each other, for we do not have that right.
But God has created each and every one of us, so He "owns" us,
just as the Potter owns the clay, and He has the right to end the
life of anyone He chooses, just as Rom. 9:20-24 teaches.
Anyone killing another human being, or justifying such killing
without repenting of them, will NEVER see the Kingdom of Heaven,
but will go were all such self-justified killers are, and that may
well include Calvin.
Well of course... But the same can be said of *any* sin, from murder
and adultery, to "fibbing" and being angry with your brother. So what
exactly is your point here?
Frank
--
Jeff Shirton jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
"[T]he gospel is not that man can become God,
but that God became a man." -- James White
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: Fundamentalism vs. Reformed. I am the latter. |
05 Oct 2003 02:35:43 PM |
|
|
"Jeff Shirton" <burlington@ontario.ca> wrote in message
news:_BZfb.4902$733.313978@read1.cgocable.net...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:dpKfb.8567$GJ7.1443@nntp-post.primus.ca...
Did your god command "Thou shalt not kill" and then
instructed the Jews to kill the entire population and their
animals of "the promised land"?
Wow.
I hadn't realized that before.
So Frank, please clarify... Are you saying that you *reject* the Old
Testament
of the Bible, and "the god of the Old Testament"? I didn't realize that
when
you said earlier,
"I am a Fundamentalist, for I believe the NT to be God's
holy and inerrant Word, and His Holy Spirit the ONLY
source of revelation of the truth."
... that you meant, "NT-only".
You *do* realize, I hope, that Jesus believed and preached the Old
Testament,
even the Torah, and His god was "the god of the Old Testament"? Doesn't
that concern you a little bit, Frank, that you apparently reject Jesus'
god?
That is not true, or the Jews would have accepted Him, instead of
killing Him. All Jews agree, that the God of Christ who "is a Spirit, which
must be served in spirit and in truth" in not the god of the Jews YHWH, and
I agree with them. See below
--
Pastor Frank
"GOD" The Christian meaning of the word.
Jesus in Jn:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus in John 14:7: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:
and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8: Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and
how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the
words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God
is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
---
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| User: "django" |
|
| Title: Re: Fundamentalism vs. Reformed. I am the latter. |
05 Oct 2003 01:40:46 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<dpKfb.8567$GJ7.1443@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0310041226.30d47635@posting.google.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<z0vfb.6398$r96.1153@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
"trees40" <trees40xxx@knology.net> wrote in message
news:3F7DEB64.2060604@knology.net...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Did your god command "Thou shalt not kill" and then instructed
the
Jews
to kill the entire population and their animals of "the promised
land"?
"Thou shalt not murder" is what the commandment means. I would be
willing to bet that you do not believe what you seem to be implying,
"not kill" strictly, universally, and literally.
Show that the below is NOT murder. Your god is a monster and
certainly
not the God of Christ who is our ever loving Father which is in Heaven,
Abba, Daddy.
--
Pastor Frank
Moses in Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman, that hath known man by lying with
him.
But all the female children, that have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourself.
Re:19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he
that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness
he doth judge and make war.
Re:19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many
crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Re:19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his
name is called The Word of God.
Re:19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Re:19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he
should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
Re:19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,
KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Re:19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a
loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,
Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Re:19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of
captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of
them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond,
both small and great.
Re:19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their
armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the
horse, and against his army.
Re:19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that
wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had
received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re:19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat
upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the
fowls were filled with their flesh.
There is one God in three persons who does not change.
Does the above make Jesus a murderer, Frank? Isn't
the Lord going to put His enemies under His feet?
You failed to answer the question and did not show that YHWH the god of
the Jews commanded both "Do not kill", and then supposedly commanded the
murder of innocent women and children. See above quote of Moses in Numbers
31:17-18.
Don't you know why they had to be killed?
Nu:25:1: And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit
whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
Nu:25:2: And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods:
and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
Nu:25:3: And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of
the LORD was kindled against Israel.
Nu:25:4: And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the
people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the
fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
Nu:25:5: And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one
his men that were joined unto Baal-peor.
Nu:25:6: And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought
unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in
the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were
weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Nu:25:7: And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the
priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a
javelin in his hand;
Nu:25:8: And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust
both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her
belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
Nu:25:9: And those that died in the plague were twenty and four
thousand.
These "innocent" women, who were sent among the Israelite men, caused
them to engage inwhoredom and idol worship, which is spiritual
whoredom, thus the wrath of God came upon Israel in the form of a
plague.
Nu:31:1: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Nu:31:2: Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward
shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
Nu:31:3: And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of
yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and
avenge the LORD of Midian.
The Midianites had drawn the Israelites into sin bringing dishonor
among
themselves and dishonor to their God who must be avenged. God had
the Israelite men killed for their sins with the Midianite women, and
God had these women slain therefore they would not be able to ensnare
the men into fornication and idol worship again. God will be regarded
as holy
among His people.
Many Christians today are embarrassed by God's wrath which is an
expression of His holiness. God instituted capital punishment for
sins perpetrated against His holy character and will. Sin was to be
put away from Israel. He commanded destruction of those peoples
who had defiled the land with their detestable devil/idol worshipping,
and for the abominable practices they engaged in as part of their
worship.
God is sovereign over all that He has created, and He is not a
murderer
when He imposes punitive sanctions such as death and destruction on
evildoers.
Nu:31:4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of
Israel, shall ye send to the war.
Nu:31:25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Nu:31:26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of
beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the
congregation:
Nu:31:27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took
the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the
congregation:
Nu:31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went
out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of
the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
Can you show where God condemned Moses or the Israelite men for
slaying any of
the Midianite "innocents"? I can't.
Remember King Saul, and the consequences of his failure to obey God's
command?
1Sa:15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek
did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up
from Egypt.
1Sa:15:3: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they
have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and
suckling, ox and sheep, camel and *****.
Frank, you know that there are numerous instances in Scripture where
the
Lord commanded the Israelites to drive out and destroy the inhabitants
of
the Canaanite nations. In Lev. 18, God tells Moses why these
abominable
people are cast out of the land, why the land vomits them out. God
went before
the Israelites to drive out the existing inhabitants of Canaan so they
would not
be a snare to His people.
Ex:33:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou
and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt,
unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob,
saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:
Ex:33:2 And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the
Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the
Hivite, and the Jebusite:
De:7:16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God
shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither
shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.
De:7:22 And the LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee by
little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the
beasts of the field increase upon thee.
De:7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall
destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.
De:7:24 And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou
shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able
to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them.
De:7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou
shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto
thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the
LORD thy God.
De:7:26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest
thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and
thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.
Remember the fate of Jericho? Jos:6:17 And the city shall be accursed,
even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot
shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she
hid the messengers that we sent.
Jos:6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man
and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and *****, with the edge of
the sword.
The fate of Ai? Jos:8:24 And it came to pass, when Israel had made an
end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the
wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on
the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the
Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword.
Jos:8:25 And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and
women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai.
Jos:8:26 For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out
the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
There are many more examples of this in Scripture.
We all will be judged by the Royal Law and Golden Rule below, and all
your dispensationalist fantasies are not going to justify you. Anyone
killing another human being, or justifying such killing without
repenting of them, will NEVER see the Kingdom of Heaven, but will go
were all such self-justified killers are, and that may well include
Calvin. --
Pastor Frank
And we will be judged if we love any human being more than we love
Jesus.
And too:
Ro:13:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is
no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Ro:13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the
ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves
damnation.
Ro:13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.
Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and
thou shalt have praise of the same:
Ro:13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do
that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain:
for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him
that doeth evil.
Ro:13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but
also for conscience sake.
THE ROYAL LAW
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."
THE GOLDEN RULE
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."
---
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
05 Oct 2003 02:46:36 PM |
|
|
"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0310051040.76f1b5d3@posting.google.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<dpKfb.8567$GJ7.1443@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
You failed to answer the question and did not show that YHWH the god
of
the Jews commanded both "Do not kill", and then supposedly commanded the
murder of innocent women and children. See above quote of Moses in
Numbers
31:17-18.
Don't you know why they had to be killed?
There is no possible reason EVER to kill small children on purpose and
with foresight. Yes, our bomber pilots in WW2 killed whole cities full of
the women and children of occupiers, which now gives the right to
Palestinians to do the same thing to those who occupy them. But our
war-heroes did not kill them like the Hebrews did the natives of the
"promised land", looking them in the eye.
--
Pastor Frank
Moses in Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman, that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the female children, that have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourself.
---
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| User: "django" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
10 Oct 2003 09:06:18 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<3K_fb.10875$RW.634@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0310051040.76f1b5d3@posting.google.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<dpKfb.8567$GJ7.1443@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
You failed to answer the question and did not show that YHWH the god
of
the Jews commanded both "Do not kill", and then supposedly commanded the
murder of innocent women and children. See above quote of Moses in
Numbers
31:17-18.
Don't you know why they had to be killed?
There is no possible reason EVER to kill small children on purpose and
with foresight.
Frank, God commanded that the men, women, and children
be destroyed. In Deut. 9:3, we read, Understand therefore
this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over
before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them,
(the children of the Anakims) and he shall bring them down
before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy
them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
The people in the promised land were those who had committed all
manner of sexual sin: fornication, adultery, incest, bestiality,
homosexuality. They worshipped false gods/demons to whom they
sacrificed their own "small children on purpose and with fore-
sight", Lev. 18. What about that Frank? They were thoroughly
polluted, so why was God under any obligation to protect their
children? In v. 4, 5, and 6, Moses makes in quite clear that
God wasn't giving the land to the Israelites because of their
righteousness, they were a stiffnecked people, but because of
the wickedness of those nations God was driving them out of the
land.
Yes, our bomber pilots in WW2 killed whole cities full of
the women and children of occupiers, which now gives the right to
Palestinians to do the same thing to those who occupy them. But our
war-heroes did not kill them like the Hebrews did the natives of the
"promised land", looking them in the eye.
Yes, war has changed over the years, especially in the 20th
and 21th centuries, so excuse the Hebrews for not using
daisy cutters, RPG's, F15's, cruise missles, etc. as they
were not available in their day and age. When the Israelites
rebelled against God, and worshipped the gods of the peoples
around them, God sent armies to destroy many of them. Does it
help to know that Hebrew men, women and children were killed
by those who looked them in the eye?
Don't suppose that you are more loving, merciful and just
than the Sovereign Lord, who has the authority and autonomy
to bestow His grace, mercy and compassion upon whom He will.
The Jews were chosen because God set His love upon them
above all the people on earth to be a special people unto
Him. This is the felicity of all God's chosen in Christ,
Jew and Gentile alike.
--
Pastor Frank
Moses in Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman, that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the female children, that have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourself.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
11 Oct 2003 07:57:41 AM |
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"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0310101806.212a7bf3@posting.google.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<3K_fb.10875$RW.634@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0310051040.76f1b5d3@posting.google.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<dpKfb.8567$GJ7.1443@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
You failed to answer the question and did not show that YHWH the
god
of
the Jews commanded both "Do not kill", and then supposedly commanded
the
murder of innocent women and children. See above quote of Moses in
Numbers
31:17-18.
Don't you know why they had to be killed?
There is no possible reason EVER to kill small children on purpose
and
with foresight.
Frank, God commanded that the men, women, and children
be destroyed. In Deut. 9:3, we read, Understand therefore
this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over
before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them,
(the children of the Anakims) and he shall bring them down
before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy
them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
The people in the promised land were those who had committed all
manner of sexual sin: fornication, adultery, incest, bestiality,
homosexuality.
Is that a reason to order the slaughter of women and children? God
tested the resolve of the Hebrews to follow His command "THOU SHALT NOT
KILL" and they failed, and have been persecuted ever since as a direct
consequence, the number of innocent Jews killed by Hitler etc. being just
about equal as to the numbers of innocents the Hebrews killed.
Do you really think our almighty and perfect God would allow such
blatant disregard of his Commandments go unpunished?
--
Pastor Frank
THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST
Jesus in Matthew. 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye
for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite
thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40: And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
him have thy cloke also.
41: And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42: Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
turn not thou away.
43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you,
and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he
maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on
the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even
the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do
not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
---------------------
His teaching is a humongous step up from Judaism's Exodus 21:23-24
"If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth
for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound,
stripe for stripe."
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 9/26/03
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| User: "django" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
12 Oct 2003 12:34:48 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<yj2ib.3052$7p.2810@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0310101806.212a7bf3@posting.google.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<3K_fb.10875$RW.634@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0310051040.76f1b5d3@posting.google.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<dpKfb.8567$GJ7.1443@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
You failed to answer the question and did not show that YHWH the
god
of
the Jews commanded both "Do not kill", and then supposedly commanded
the
murder of innocent women and children. See above quote of Moses in
Numbers
31:17-18.
Don't you know why they had to be killed?
There is no possible reason EVER to kill small children on purpose
and
with foresight.
Frank, God commanded that the men, women, and children
be destroyed. In Deut. 9:3, we read, Understand therefore
this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over
before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them,
(the children of the Anakims) and he shall bring them down
before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy
them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
The people in the promised land were those who had committed all
manner of sexual sin: fornication, adultery, incest, bestiality,
homosexuality.
Is that a reason to order the slaughter of women and children?
Frank, does your Bible include the Old Testament? If it does, you
can read Num. 21:34-35, And the Lord said to Moses, Fear him not:
[Og the king of Bashan] for I have delivered him into thy hand, and
all his people, and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon,
king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. So they smote him,
and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him
alive: and they possessed his land.
God
tested the resolve of the Hebrews to follow His command "THOU SHALT NOT
KILL" and they failed,
It was not murder when God commanded that men, women and children,
who were an abomination to Him, be killed. It was justice. God
sanctioned the death of those people to purge the land of their
defilement of it. This is how He chose to have the land vomit
out its abominable, polluted inhabitants. If you continue reading
in Numbers, you will be reminded that God would not allow Balaam,
to curse the Israelites whom He had blessed; and this after they
had "slaughtered" the "innocents." If you remember, the Israelites
got into trouble for not slaying all the inhabitants of some of
those nations.
and have been persecuted ever since as a direct
consequence, the number of innocent Jews killed by Hitler etc. being just
about equal as to the numbers of innocents the Hebrews killed.
From whence cometh thy statistics?
Do you really think our almighty and perfect God would allow such
blatant disregard of his Commandments go unpunished?
Frank, what about their rejection of God's Son, the promised Messiah,
the
Saviour, the only way of atonement and eternal salvation? He came
unto His own, and His own received Him not. John 1:11
Their house was left unto them desolate. They will not see Him again
until they say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Yet:
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as
touching election, they are beloved for the fathers's sakes. For
the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom 11:28-29.
--
Pastor Frank
THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST
Jesus in Matthew. 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye
for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite
thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40: And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
him have thy cloke also.
41: And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42: Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
turn not thou away.
43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you,
and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he
maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on
the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even
the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do
not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
---------------------
His teaching is a humongous step up from Judaism's Exodus 21:23-24
"If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth
for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound,
stripe for stripe."
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 9/26/03
.
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| User: "Jesse Nowells" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
12 Oct 2003 12:53:09 AM |
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
God tested the resolve of the Hebrews to follow His command "THOU
SHALT NOT KILL" and they failed, and have been persecuted ever since
as a direct consequence,
So basically what you're implying is that god persecutes Jews, since you
have it that god allows racists to persecute them for allegedly doing what
you claim god *allows* other people to do as enforcers of a supposedly
universal behaviorial policy.
the number of innocent Jews killed by Hitler etc. being just about
equal as to the numbers of innocents the Hebrews killed.
So where did you get this from? Mein Kampf?
Do you really think our almighty and perfect God would allow such
blatant disregard of his Commandments go unpunished?
So basically what you're saying is that god is evil because to allow evil
to happen is evil in itself. That contradicts your assertion that "god is
love" unless you want to define love as hate. Your theological zepplin is
going down like the Hindenburg. How appropriate.
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
12 Oct 2003 09:48:51 PM |
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"Jesse Nowells" <jnowells@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.31.0310112215090.32862-100000@localhost...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
God tested the resolve of the Hebrews to follow His command "THOU
SHALT NOT KILL" and they failed, and have been persecuted ever since
as a direct consequence,
So basically what you're implying is that god persecutes Jews, since you
have it that god allows racists to persecute them for allegedly doing what
you claim god *allows* other people to do as enforcers of a supposedly
universal behaviorial policy.
the number of innocent Jews killed by Hitler etc. being just about
equal as to the numbers of innocents the Hebrews killed.
So where did you get this from? Mein Kampf?
Do you really think our almighty and perfect God would allow such
blatant disregard of his Commandments go unpunished?
So basically what you're saying is that god is evil because to allow evil
to happen is evil in itself. That contradicts your assertion that "god is
love" unless you want to define love as hate. Your theological zepplin is
going down like the Hindenburg. How appropriate.
So "basically you are saying" God is evil because He gives us free
choice to do good or to do evil. LOL
--
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Jn:15:13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
---
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| User: "Jesse Nowells" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
13 Oct 2003 02:58:55 AM |
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On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
Do you really think our almighty and perfect God would allow such
blatant disregard of his Commandments go unpunished?
So basically what you're saying is that god is evil because to allow evil
to happen is evil in itself. That contradicts your assertion that "god is
love" unless you want to define love as hate. Your theological zepplin is
going down like the Hindenburg. How appropriate.
So "basically you are saying" God is evil because He gives us free
choice to do good or to do evil. LOL
Allowing somebody to do evil is in itself evil. & BTW, since you claim
that god allows the persecution of the Jews by racists, that makes god a
racist as well. There is something rotten in the heart of your "theology".
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
13 Oct 2003 10:15:32 AM |
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"Jesse Nowells" <jnowells@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.31.0310130049320.52470-100000@localhost...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
Do you really think our almighty and perfect God would allow such
blatant disregard of his Commandments go unpunished?
So basically what you're saying is that god is evil because to allow
evil
to happen is evil in itself. That contradicts your assertion that "god
is
love" unless you want to define love as hate. Your theological zepplin
is
going down like the Hindenburg. How appropriate.
So "basically you are saying" God is evil because He gives us free
choice to do good or to do evil. LOL
Allowing somebody to do evil is in itself evil. & BTW, since you claim
that god allows the persecution of the Jews by racists, that makes god a
racist as well. There is something rotten in the heart of your "theology".
WRONG!!!! Unless your parents kept you handcuffed to your bed to prevent
you from choosing to do evil. All normal parents can do is: 1. Teach their
child good from evil with Bible in hand, and 2. Let him lose to make his own
decisions, and 3. Reward him for doing good, or punish him for doing evil.
There is no alternative, apart from preventing him from choosing in the
first place.
--
Pastor Frank
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God
is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 10/9/03
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| User: "Jesse Nowells" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
14 Oct 2003 04:07:25 AM |
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On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
Allowing somebody to do evil is in itself evil. & BTW, since you claim
that god allows the persecution of the Jews by racists, that makes god
a racist as well. There is something rotten in the heart of your
"theology".
WRONG!!!! Unless your parents kept you handcuffed to your bed to prevent
you from choosing to do evil.
If you went next door & drown little Susie when your parents knew full
well that if they let you loose you'll do exactly that, then *their*
action & their choice is evil. & if you have it that because god is pissed
off at the Jews, that god allows them to be persecuted, you're implying
that *your* god is evil, and/or *your* idea of god is evil. So there you
go.
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
He that loveth stupidity, makes a god out of stupidity & calls it love.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God
is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Thou knoweth not so thou believeth the bliss that thine own ignorance hath
given to thee.
.
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| User: "John W" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
05 Oct 2003 08:56:50 PM |
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On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:46:36 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote:
"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0310051040.76f1b5d3@posting.google.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<dpKfb.8567$GJ7.1443@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
You failed to answer the question and did not show that YHWH the god
of
the Jews commanded both "Do not kill", and then supposedly commanded the
murder of innocent women and children. See above quote of Moses in
Numbers
31:17-18.
Don't you know why they had to be killed?
There is no possible reason EVER to kill small children on purpose and
with foresight.
I guess you didn't hear what Saddam Hussein pulled during this war. Or
you choose to not listen. Our soldiers interviewed right after various
battles said the soldiers had grabbed children to use for humans
shields as they shot at our allies. The American soldier had to shoot
the child to shoot the enemy soldier. Saddam truly would stoop to
anything to win, and he did and lost anyway because of "overwleming
force", a concept Geoge Buth the 1st invented, and that one of today's
American war heroes General Arnold Schoarzkopf carried out.
The Iraqi army held up youngsters whom the Americans had to shoot to
shoot the soldier.
And you're gonna tell me they faked the several dozen soldeiers they'd
takled to who were crying after shooting 20 or 30 kids and soldiers. I
din't know if I would ever get over thet, I'vea lways been SO glad I
didn't do combat. BTW, it would be nice if you'd all be praying for
these returning soldiers. The Bible says we'll see untold horrors in
this world, and we already have, children being used as human weapons,
what happened in Iraq. We HAD to remove that monster from power.
George Bush was right. He's made mistakes. Iraq and Afghanstan were
the right thing to do, and he's already showed courage under fire
where little Billy C would have pooped his pants. And that's
political commentary, so it's allowed.
Intelligent pople know that if George W Bush is a cowrd, so is Bill
Clinton. The Dems would like you to forget that the REAL worrry when
Bill C ran the first time would be how America would handle him being
a draft dodget.
He was elected and dodged confrontation and slaughter like every
president before him.
George Bush took over and the tyranny in two barbaric nations has
stopped.
And all we're doing now is mopping up the "overflow."
John W
I'd received a message from God I think that i was not to go someplace
and kill people who ere not His enemies.
So I didn't fight in Viet Nam. I chose prison instead.
And now you know a dark secret.
They simply went "Oops!" and let me out.
I was a REAL war protester.
John Weatherly
JTB2
100503
Yes, our bomber pilots in WW2 killed whole cities full of
the women and children of occupiers, which now gives the right to
Palestinians to do the same thing to those who occupy them. But our
war-heroes did not kill them like the Hebrews did the natives of the
"promised land", looking them in the eye.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
10 Oct 2003 05:22:39 AM |
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"John W" <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aai1ov4l4vi0n1hftq1msmc8v3qdfhkc25@4ax.com...
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:46:36 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote:
The Iraqi army held up youngsters whom the Americans had to shoot to
shoot the soldier.
We Christians don't believe in shooting anyone who "holds up youngsters"
instead of a gun. Looks to me you will follow ANY order, illegal / inhumane
or not, including the one below
--
Pastor Frank
Moses in Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman, that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the female children, that have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourself.
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 9/25/03
.
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| User: "Reason" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
30 Oct 2003 11:57:43 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:ilwhb.24637$qB1.22142@nntp-post.primus.ca...
"John W" <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aai1ov4l4vi0n1hftq1msmc8v3qdfhkc25@4ax.com...
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:46:36 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote:
The Iraqi army held up youngsters whom the Americans had to shoot to
shoot the soldier.
We Christians don't believe in shooting anyone who "holds up
youngsters"
instead of a gun. Looks to me you will follow ANY order, illegal /
inhumane
or not, including the one below
--
Pastor Frank
Only a fundamentalist would shoot a child for some ostensibly higher
purpose.
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
31 Oct 2003 06:54:36 PM |
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"Reason" <pjohn@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:rRmob.229783$pl3.22441@pd7tw3no...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:ilwhb.24637$qB1.22142@nntp-post.primus.ca...
"John W" <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aai1ov4l4vi0n1hftq1msmc8v3qdfhkc25@4ax.com...
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:46:36 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote:
The Iraqi army held up youngsters whom the Americans had to shoot to
shoot the soldier.
We Christians don't believe in shooting anyone who "holds up
youngsters"
instead of a gun. Looks to me you will follow ANY order, illegal /
inhumane or not, including the one below
Pastor Frank
Only a fundamentalist would shoot a child for some ostensibly higher
purpose.
Yes. Especially atheist fundamentalists who have no rules against
killing, like Christians have.
--
Pastor Frank
CAUSE (Holocaust of the entire native population of "the promised land" and
the continuing colonial brutality against Palestinian natives)
Moses in Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman, that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the female children, that have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourself.
PROPHETIC APOCALYPSE, (The n-u-c-l-e-a-r consequence, employing great noise
and heat that can melt elements, scorch people and destroy the"works" of man
on a massive scale)
2Pt:3:10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in
the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements
shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein
shall be burned up.
2Pt:3:12: Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall
melt with fervent heat?
Jesus in Matt. 24:16: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the
mountains:
17: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of
his house:
18: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19: And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in
those days!
20: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the
sabbath day:
21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Jesus in Lk:23:30: Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on
us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Rv:16:9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name
of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give
him glory.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalist vs. Reformed. I am the former. |
06 Oct 2003 08:49:33 PM |
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"John W" <john_weatherly47@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aai1ov4l4vi0n1hftq1msmc8v3qdfhkc25@4ax.com...
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:46:36 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote:
There is no possible reason EVER to kill small children on purpose
and
with foresight.
I guess you didn't hear what Saddam Hussein pulled during this war.
"I guess" they all learned how to kill children and their mothers from
Moses below. You seem to like that exemption he makes, for he tells the Jews
to keep little girls alive "for yourself". the thought sure seems to give
you a tickle, don't it? See below
--
Pastor Frank
Moses in Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman, that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the female children, that have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourself.
---
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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| User: "django" |
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| Title: Re: Fundamentalism vs. Reformed. I am the latter. |
05 Oct 2003 01:45:02 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<dpKfb.8567$GJ7.1443@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
"django" <nacmax43@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8469ce24.0310041226.30d47635@posting.google.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<z0vfb.6398$r96.1153@nntp-post.primus.ca>...
"trees40" <trees40xxx@knology.net> wrote in message
news:3F7DEB64.2060604@knology.net...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Did your god command "Thou shalt not kill" and then instructed
the
Jews
to kill the entire population and their animals of "the promised
land"?
"Thou shalt not murder" is what the commandment means. I would be
willing to bet that you do not believe what you seem to be implying,
"not kill" strictly, universally, and literally.
Show that the below is NOT murder. Your god is a monster and
certainly
not the God of Christ who is our ever loving Father which is in Heaven,
Abba, Daddy.
--
Pastor Frank
Moses in Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman, that hath known man by lying with
him.
But all the female children, that have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourself.
Re:19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he
that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness
he doth judge and make war.
Re:19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many
crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Re:19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his
name is called The Word of God.
Re:19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Re:19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he
should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
Re:19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,
KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Re:19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a
loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,
Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Re:19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of
captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of
them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond,
both small and great.
Re:19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their
armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the
horse, and against his army.
Re:19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that
wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had
received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re:19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat
upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the
fowls were filled with their flesh.
There is one God in three persons who does not change.
Does the above make Jesus a murderer, Frank? Isn't
the Lord going to put His enemies under His feet?
You failed to answer the question and did not show that YHWH the god of
the Jews commanded both "Do not kill", and then supposedly commanded the
murder of innocent women and children. See above quote of Moses in Numbers
31:17-18.
You failed to answer the question and did not show that YHWH the god
of the >Jews commanded both "Do not kill", and then supposedly
commanded the murder of >innocent women and children. See above quote
of Moses in Numbers 31:17-18.
Don't you know why they had to be killed?
Nu:25:1: And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit
whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
Nu:25:2: And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods:
and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
Nu:25:3: And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of
the LORD was kindled against Israel.
Nu:25:4: And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the
people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the
fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
Nu:25:5: And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one
his men that were joined unto Baal-peor.
Nu:25:6: And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought
unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in
the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were
weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Nu:25:7: And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the
priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a
javelin in his hand;
Nu:25:8: And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust
both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her
belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
Nu:25:9: And those that died in the plague were twenty and four
thousand.
These "innocent" women, who were sent among the Israelite men, caused
them to engage in whoredom and idol worship, which is spiritual
whoredom, thus the wrath of God came upon Israel in the form of a
plague.
Nu:31:1: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Nu:31:2: Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward
shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
Nu:31:3: And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of
yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and
avenge the LORD of Midian.
The Midianites had drawn the Israelites into sin bringing dishonor
among
themselves and dishonor to their God who must be avenged. God had
the Israelite men killed for their sins with the Midianite women, and
God had these women slain therefore they would not be able to ensnare
the men into fornication and idol worship again. God will be regarded
as holy
among His people.
Many Christians today are embarrassed by God's wrath which is an
expression of His holiness. God instituted capital punishment for
sins perpetrated against His holy character and will. Sin was to be
put away from Israel. He commanded destruction of those peoples
who had defiled the land with their detestable devil/idol worshipping,
and for the abominable practices they engaged in as part of their
worship.
God is sovereign over all that He has created, and He is not a
murderer
when He imposes punitive sanctions such as death and destruction on
evildoers.
Nu:31:4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of
Israel, shall ye send to the war.
Nu:31:25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Nu:31:26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of
beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the
congregation:
Nu:31:27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took
the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the
congregation:
Nu:31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went
out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of
the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
Can you show where God condemned Moses or the Israelite men for
slaying any of
the Midianite "innocents"? I can't.
Remember King Saul, and the consequences of his failure to obey God's
command?
1Sa:15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek
did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up
from Egypt.
1Sa:15:3: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they
have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and
suckling, ox and sheep, camel and *****.
Frank, you know that there are numerous instances in Scripture where
the
Lord commanded the Israelites to drive out and destroy the inhabitants
of
the Canaanite nations. In Lev. 18, God tells Moses why these
abominable
people are cast out of the land, why the land vomits them out. God
went before
the Israelites to drive out the existing inhabitants of Canaan so they
would not
be a snare to His people.
Ex:33:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou
and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt,
unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob,
saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:
Ex:33:2 And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the
Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the
Hivite, and the Jebusite:
De:7:16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God
shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither
shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.
De:7:22 And the LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee by
little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the
beasts of the field increase upon thee.
De:7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall
destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.
De:7:24 And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou
shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able
to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them.
De:7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou
shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto
thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the
LORD thy God.
De:7:26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest
thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and
thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.
Remember the fate of Jericho? Jos:6:17 And the city shall be accursed,
even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot
shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she
hid the messengers that we sent.
Jos:6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man
and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and *****, with the edge of
the sword.
The fate of Ai? Jos:8:24 And it came to pass, when Israel had made an
end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the
wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on
the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the
Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword.
Jos:8:25 And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and
women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai.
Jos:8:26 For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out
the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
There are many more examples of this in Scripture.
We all will be judged by the Royal Law and Golden Rule below, and all
your dispensationalist fantasies are not going to justify you. Anyone
killing another human being, or justifying such killing without repenting of
them, will NEVER see the Kingdom of Heaven, but will go were all such
self-justified killers are, and that may well include Calvin.
--
Pastor Frank
And we will be judged if we love any human being more than we love
Jesus.
And too:
Ro:13:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is
no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Ro:13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the
ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves
damnation.
Ro:13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.
Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and
thou shalt have praise of the same:
Ro:13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do
that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain:
for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him
that doeth evil.
Ro:13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but
also for conscience sake.
THE ROYAL LAW
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."
THE GOLDEN RULE
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."
---
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