| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Carl" |
| Date: |
20 Jul 2007 09:07:17 AM |
| Object: |
Re: GLENN CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE |
"Glenn" <gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote in message
news:f7be1611bie@enews2.newsguy.com...
®andy wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:53:30 -0700,
in article <f7arhr2un@enews1.newsguy.com>,
Glenn <gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote:
TRINITY DOCTRINE CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE
The Bible ...
I notice that you can not refute the OP, so you just clip it...
The fact that the material from the NCE you cited was out of context,
altered AND intended to misrepresent shows that you present something that
is moot automatically since the NCE didn't say what you claim it says. I
went and took the time to obtain the complete, in context quote which shows
the NCE supports the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
The fact also remains that the heresy you espouse is an arianic one that has
been refuted since the 4th century from whence it originated. You are not
presenting anything new but old heresies that have been thoroughly refuted
time and time again.
Furthermore, since you have chosen to take dishonest tactics (something God
abhors) in defense of your materials, your stance becomes moot.
I will keep you in my prayers.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: GLENN CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE |
20 Jul 2007 10:20:34 AM |
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Carl wrote:
"Glenn" <gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote in message
news:f7be1611bie@enews2.newsguy.com...
®andy wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:53:30 -0700,
in article <f7arhr2un@enews1.newsguy.com>,
Glenn <gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote:
TRINITY DOCTRINE CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE
The Bible ...
I notice that you can not refute the OP, so you just clip it...
The fact that the material from the NCE you cited was out of context,
altered AND intended to misrepresent shows that you present something that
is moot automatically since the NCE didn't say what you claim it says.
As I said to you before, I quoted what I found, and gave the link to
what and where.
That you continue your false accusation and misrepresentation of my
posts simply reveals your nature.
I also say again, that the material from the NCE is correct, as is the
meaning as quoted: the doctrine of the trinity is NOT taught explicitly
(or implicitly) in the Old Testament.
I
went and took the time to obtain the complete, in context quote which shows
the NCE supports the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
The fact also remains that the heresy you espouse is an arianic one
You suffer from the delusion of having believed a false doctrine, and
using that false doctrine to measure and judge the word of God.
I don't espouse a 'doctrine' except as I espouse what is actually
written in the Word of God.
If you would bother to compare my position to scripture, rather than the
false doctrine you have chosen to believe, you would abandon the
doctrine of a triune god.
Since you have clipped my original post and are now broadcasting your
out of context to 10 News Groups, I will append the original for the
edification of your many readers:
---------
note the Quote, and citation of the source.
------------------------------------------
Quote*:
Among Bible verses cited by opponents of Trinitarianism are those that
claim there is only one God, the Father. Other verses state that Jesus
Christ was a man. Trinitarians explain these apparent contradictions by
reference to the mystery and paradox of the Trinity itself [which is a
circular argument]. This is a partial list of verses implying opposition
to Trinitarianism:
ONE GOD
* Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is
written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'"
* John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the
only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
* 1Corinthians 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether
in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many
"lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all
things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus
Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
* 1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God
and men, the man Christ Jesus"
* James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the
demons believe that—and shudder."
SON AND FATHER
* Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the
angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
* John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth,
the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his
Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."
* John 14:28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming
back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the
Father, for the Father is greater than I."
* John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for
those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may
be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be
in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given
them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I
in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the
world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
* Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn over all creation."
* 1stCorinthians 15:24-28: "Then the end will come, when he hands
over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion,
authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies
under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put
everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been
put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who
put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself
will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God
may be all in all."
OLD TESTAMENT
* John 2:16: And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things
hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
* Acts 3:13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God
of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up...
* John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet
ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I
ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
* Daniel 7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like
the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient
of days, and they brought him near before him.
* Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right
hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
ONTOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES
* John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
* Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in God.
* Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
* Mark 13:32 Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.
* John 4:22 Jesus worships God.
* Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
* 1stCorinthians 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God.
* 1stCorinthians 11:1 Jesus' head is God.
* Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.
* Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.
* Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.
* Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.
* Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given authority by God.
* Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.
* Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.
* Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the
dead".
* Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the
right hand of God.
* 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man.
* 1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia, for example, says, "The doctrine of the
Holy Trinity is not taught [explicitly] in the [Old Testament]"
--
*found at: http://tinyurl.com/2ohl5n
--
A BRIEF HISTORY OF TRINITY DOCTRINE
The growth of the doctrine of a triune God, is briefly but plainly, set
forth in the following facts:
A.D. 29 Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).
A.D. 57 Paul said, "To us there is but one God" (1 Cor. 8:6).
A.D. 96 Clement said, "Christ was sent by God".
A.D. 120 "Apostles' Creed": "I believe in God the Father".
A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.
A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.
A.D. 200. "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.
A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.
A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the
same God".
A.D. 300 Trinitarian prayers unknown in the Church.
A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" afflrms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".
A.D. 370 Doxology composed.
A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".
A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't
worship the Trinity.
-+-
A Scriptural Doctrine of God
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
Glenn
His witness
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: TRINITY DOCTRINE CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE? |
22 Jul 2007 02:22:41 AM |
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Glenn said on July 20, 8:20 am:
...the doctrine of the trinity is NOT taught
explicitly (or implicitly) in the Old Testament.
It is; for the One God is more than one Person in
the Old Testament: "And God said, Let us make man in
our image" (Genesis 1:26). The New Testament
confirms that Jesus is the Creator: "All things were
made by him; and without him was not any thing made
that was made" (John 1:3).
The Old Testament says that Jesus has existed "from
everlasting": "Thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou
be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of
thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler
in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old,
from everlasting" (Micah 5:2). The New Testament
confirms the pre-existence of Jesus before He became
a man: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).
The Old Testament says that Jesus is God: "For unto
us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name
shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty
God" (Isaiah 9:6).
Jesus is the YHWH of the Old Testament: "YHWH is my
shepherd" (Psalms 23:1), "I am the good shepherd"
(John 10:11). "This same Jesus, which is taken up
from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as
ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they
unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet" (Acts
1:11-12), "Then shall YHWH go forth, and fight
against those nations, as when he fought in the day
of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon
the mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:3-4).
Glenn said:
This is a partial list of verses implying
opposition to Trinitarianism:
ONE GOD
Trinitarianism in no way denies that there is only
One God. Jesus said: "I and my Father are one" (John
10:30).
Glenn quoted:
* Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me,
Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your
God, and serve him only."'"
. . .
* John 20:17: ...I ascend unto my Father, and your
Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
. . .
* John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
* Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in
God.
* Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
. . .
* John 4:22 Jesus worships God.
. . .
* Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
Because He was made a man like other men --
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made
like unto his brethren (Hebrews 2:17) -- Jesus can
refer to, serve, and worship God the Father as the
Lord His God and Father, just as other men can.
This in no way means that Jesus isn't also the Lord
our God: "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My
Lord and my God" (John 20:28).
Glenn quoted:
* John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they
may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom you have sent."
While this emphasizes that there is no other God
besides God the Father, it in no way means that Jesus
isn't also true, or that Jesus isn't also the One
God: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth"
(John 14:6); "The Word was God... And the Word was
made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:1,14).
Glenn quoted:
* 1Corinthians 8:5-6: ". . . there is but one God,
the Father, from whom all things came and for whom
we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things came . . ."
* 1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one
mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
* James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God.
Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder."
While this emphasizes that there is no other God
besides God the Father, it in no way means that Jesus
isn't also the one God: "Looking for that blessed
hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and
our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). Note also
that in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 Paul says "Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things", that is, Paul confirms that
Jesus is the Creator, as He does elsewhere: "For by
him were all things created, that are in heaven, and
that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether
they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or
powers: all things were created by him, and for him"
(Colossians 1:16).
Glenn said:
* Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour,
not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but
only the Father."
. . .
Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows
When He was made a man like other men (Hebrews 2:17),
Jesus had limited knowledge just like other men. This
in no way means that He couldn't have had omniscience
before He became a man, or that after His
resurrection into immortality He didn't regain the
omniscience "of God, and of the Father, and of
Christ; in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom
and knowledge" (Colossians 2:2-3). Revelation 1:1 in
no way requires that Jesus didn't have knowledge of
Revelation before the Father gave it to Him to give
to the church.
Glenn quoted:
* John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell
you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself;
he can do only what he sees his Father doing,
because whatever the Father does the Son also does."
This in no way means that Jesus isn't God; it simply
emphasizes how inextricably connected the Son is with
the Father.
Glenn quoted:
* John 14:28: ". . . the Father is greater than I."
* John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone
. . .
* 1stCorinthians 15:24-28: ". . . the Son himself
will be made subject to him who put everything
under him, so that God may be all in all."
. . .
* Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit
thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies
thy footstool.
. . .
* 1stCorinthians 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to
God.
* 1stCorinthians 11:1 Jesus' head is God.
* Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear,
of God.
* Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.
* Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.
* Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.
* Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given authority by God.
* Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.
* Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.
. . .
* Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34
Jesus is at the right hand of God.
God the Father is greater than God the Son in
authority, not in divinity, just as a human father
is greater than a human son in authority, not in
humanity. None of the verses above say or mean that
the Son isn't also God, for "Unto the Son he saith,
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" (Hebrews
1:8). And none of the verses above say or mean that
the Son isn't equal to the Father in divinity, for
Paul refers to "Christ Jesus: who, being in the form
of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God;
but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness
of men" (Philippians 2:5-7).
Glenn quoted:
* Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the
invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
This doesn't mean that Jesus was chronologically born
first in Creation, for Jesus is the Creator of all
things created (John 1:3), and He wasn't born until
He was born as a man, the Son of God (Luke 1:35),
after some 4,000 years of Adamic men being born.
When He was born as a man, Jesus was made the
"firstborn" of Creation in authority, just as David
was made the "firstborn" in authority: "I will make
him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the
earth" (Psalms 89:27).
Glenn said:
* Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised
[Jesus] from the dead".
Jesus had the power to lay down His life and to raise
Himself from the dead: "I lay down my life, that I
might take it again... I have power to lay it down,
and I have power to take it again" (John 10:17-18).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Glenn said on July 20, 10:28 am:
...triune or 'tri-unity' is not taught explicitly
(or implicitly either) in the New Testament.
It is: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the
Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). Three
Persons, One Name, One God; for the Holy Spirit is
the Spirit of the Father and the Son: "For it is not
ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father"
(Matthew 10:20), "It is not ye that speak, but the
Holy Ghost" (Mark 13:11), "Even the Spirit of truth,
which proceedeth from the Father" (John 15:26); "The
Lord is that Spirit" (2 Corinthians 3:17), "Ye are
not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that
the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have
not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans
8:9), "He breathed on them, and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (John 20:22).
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE? |
22 Jul 2007 02:36:31 PM |
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Read The Bible wrote:
Glenn said on July 20, 8:20 am:
...the doctrine of the trinity is NOT taught
explicitly (or implicitly) in the Old Testament.
It is;
No, your understanding is a confusion of the TERMS "One" and "God."
For a scriptural definition of these terms, see:
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
for the One God is more than one Person in the Old Testament:
Scripture does not say that.
You have it backwards: more than one person (God the Father and His Son)
have been described or called "God." That is not the same thing as "more
than one person being God."
That is the false conclusion and statement of the trinitarian doctrine.
"And God said, Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26).
Fine. Jesus was with His Father before 'the beginning.'
This does not explicitly or implicitly teach that God is a multiple
personality being.
The New Testament
confirms that Jesus is the Creator: "All things were
made by him; and without him was not any thing made
that was made" (John 1:3).
Yes, Jesus was with His Father before the beginning.
This does not describe or teach a multiple personality being.
The Old Testament says that Jesus has existed "from
everlasting": "Thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou
be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of
thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler
in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old,
from everlasting" (Micah 5:2).
Yes, Jesus was with His Father before the Beginning.
Does not explicitly or implicitly teach that God as a multiple
personality being.
The New Testament
confirms the pre-existence of Jesus before He became
a man: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).
Yes, Jesus was 'brought forth' from God the Father before He created the
Heavens and Earth.
This does not describe God as a multiple personality being.
The Old Testament says that Jesus is God: "For unto
us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name
shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty
God" (Isaiah 9:6).
Yes, However it does not say that God the Father and His Son are two
persona of a multiple personality being.
Scriptural defintion of the TERM "God" is Supreme Ruler.
Ps 110-12, Mat 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28.
Jesus is the YHWH of the Old Testament: "YHWH is my
shepherd" (Psalms 23:1), "I am the good shepherd"
(John 10:11). "This same Jesus, which is taken up
from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as
ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they
unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet" (Acts
1:11-12), "Then shall YHWH go forth, and fight
against those nations, as when he fought in the day
of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon
the mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:3-4).
None of the scriptures you quoted describe God as a multiple personality
being.
There are NO scriptures which describe God the Father, His Spirit or His
Son as "persona of a triune being,' or as a "tri-unity,"
Those definitions and descriptions are ONLY found in the doctrine of a
triune god.
Glenn said:
This is a partial list of verses implying
opposition to Trinitarianism:
ONE GOD
Trinitarianism in no way denies that there is only
One God. Jesus said: "I and my Father are one" (John
10:30).
This is a misinterpretation of the word "One."
The first phrase in your statement uses the TERM "One" to mean more than
Zero and Less than TWO, an single individual who is "God."
Quote:
Trinitarianism in no way denies that there is only One God.
End quote.
Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and
shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
"One" in this context does not mean "same" or "single body."
The Second phrase in your statement perverts and misinterprets Jesus'
words as if Jesus and His father are a single being:
Quote:
"I and my Father are one"
End quote.
The meaning of Jesus' words are that He (Jesus) is in submission to His
Father, and that He and His Father are agreed in purpose, acting
together for a common goal.
Glenn quoted:
* Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me,
Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your
God, and serve him only."'"
. . .
* John 20:17: ...I ascend unto my Father, and your
Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
. . .
* John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
* Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in
God.
* Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
. . .
* John 4:22 Jesus worships God.
. . .
* Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
Because He was made a man like other men --
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made
like unto his brethren (Hebrews 2:17) --
"Him" is Jesus the Son of God, not the triune god.
Jesus can
refer to, serve, and worship God the Father as the
Lord His God and Father, just as other men can.
This in no way means that Jesus isn't also the Lord
our God: "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My
Lord and my God" (John 20:28).
Yes, Jesus IS the Lord our God, but not by the definition of "God" as
used by the trinity doctrine.
Glenn quoted:
* John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they
may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom you have sent."
While this emphasizes that there is no other God
besides God the Father, it in no way means that Jesus
isn't also true, or that Jesus isn't also the One
God:
Again, you are using the phrase "one true God" to include the
trinitarian definition of god.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth"
(John 14:6); "The Word was God... And the Word was
made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:1,14).
Jesus is the "Way" because His Father gave him ALL Authority and ALL
power, AND gave Him as the Lamb of God.
Jesus did not give himself to be killed for our sins.
Glenn quoted:
* 1Corinthians 8:5-6: ". . . there is but one God,
the Father, from whom all things came and for whom
we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things came . . ."
* 1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one
mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
* James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God.
Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder."
While this emphasizes that there is no other God
besides God the Father, it in no way means that Jesus
isn't also the one God:
Again, you use the trinitarian definition of the term 'god.'
"Looking for that blessed
hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and
our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). Note also
that in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 Paul says "Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things", that is, Paul confirms that
Jesus is the Creator, as He does elsewhere: "For by
him were all things created, that are in heaven, and
that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether
they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or
powers: all things were created by him, and for him"
(Colossians 1:16).
Yes, that Jesus is the Creator certainly does demonstrate that Jesus was
brought forth and was with His Father before 'the beginning', but it
does NOT suggest that Jesus is God by the definition of the triune god.
Glenn said:
* Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour,
not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but
only the Father."
. . .
Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows
When He was made a man like other men (Hebrews 2:17),
Jesus had limited knowledge just like other men. This
in no way means that He couldn't have had omniscience
before He became a man,
Simply put, this is a self-serving manipulation of terms.
or that after His
resurrection into immortality He didn't regain the
omniscience
Pure trick logic, a blatant lie.
"of God, and of the Father, and of
Christ; in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom
and knowledge" (Colossians 2:2-3). Revelation 1:1 in
no way requires that Jesus didn't have knowledge of
Revelation before the Father gave it to Him to give
to the church.
You are stretching the point to support your false doctrine: an act of
sophistry.
There is no reason to question or manipulate Jesus words, except to
support false doctrine.
Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Jesus did not know THEN, before He ascended after His resurrection.
There is no reason to manipulate His meaning: He said He did not know,
therefore He did not know.
There is also no reason to doubt that after His Ascension, when He sat
on His Fathers right hand, that His Father, God, did not THEN give the
remaining details of His plan for mankind and His People to His Son.
NONE of which supports the false doctrine of a triune god.
Glenn quoted:
* John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell
you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself;
he can do only what he sees his Father doing,
because whatever the Father does the Son also does."
This in no way means that Jesus isn't God;
Again you insert the false definition of the triune god.
it simply
emphasizes how inextricably connected the Son is with
the Father.
Yes, and emphasizes that the Son is a unique individual separate from
His Father.
Glenn quoted:
* John 14:28: ". . . the Father is greater than I."
* John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone
. . .
* 1stCorinthians 15:24-28: ". . . the Son himself
will be made subject to him who put everything
under him, so that God may be all in all."
. . .
* Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit
thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies
thy footstool.
. . .
* 1stCorinthians 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to
God.
* 1stCorinthians 11:1 Jesus' head is God.
* Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear,
of God.
* Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.
* Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.
* Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.
* Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given authority by God.
* Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.
* Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.
. . .
* Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34
Jesus is at the right hand of God.
God the Father is greater than God the Son
Again you insert the false definition of the TERM "God" as defined by
the false doctrine of a triune god.
in authority, not in divinity, just as a human father
is greater than a human son in authority, not in
humanity.
You have mixed metaphors:
You have mixed the Authority with the Kind of Being (humanity) in your
comparison of a man and his son to God and His Son.
To be faithful to your metaphors: God the Father and His Son are two
distinct, unique, separate individual Beings just as the man and his son.
Just as the son of the man is human because his father is human, so
Jesus, the son of God, is Divine, Eternal Spirit because His Father is
Divine, Eternal Spirit.
First, God the Father gave His Son ALL Authority and ALL Power and told
Him to rule. Ps 110:1-2, Mat 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28.
Second: The TERM "God" is used both to mean "one with Absolute
Authority" AND to mean "kind of Being." Jesus said, "God is a Spirit"
John 4:24 KJV, describing the kind of Being God the Father IS.
None of the verses above say or mean that
the Son isn't also God, for "Unto the Son he saith,
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" (Hebrews
1:8).
Again you insert the definition of "God" as defined by the false
doctrine of a triune god.
And none of the verses above say or mean that
the Son isn't equal to the Father in divinity,
To reject trinity doctrine is not to question the Divinity of Jesus, it
is to reject the error that states they are two persona of a multiple
personality being.
for Paul refers to "Christ Jesus: who, being in the form
of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God;
but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness
of men" (Philippians 2:5-7).
Glenn quoted:
* Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the
invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
This doesn't mean that Jesus was chronologically born
first in Creation,
Actually, Jesus was brought forth from His Father BEFORE the Creation.
for Jesus is the Creator of all
things created (John 1:3), and He wasn't born until
He was born as a man,
Wrong: Jesus was not "born as a man" until He was born of Mary.
the Son of God (Luke 1:35),
after some 4,000 years of Adamic men being born.
When He was born as a man, Jesus was made the
"firstborn" of Creation in authority, just as David
was made the "firstborn" in authority: "I will make
him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the
earth" (Psalms 89:27).
The Son of God was the Son of God before Creation, and the Son of God,
by the Authority and Power given Him from His Father, created all
things. Ps 110:1-2.
Glenn said:
* Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised
[Jesus] from the dead".
Jesus had the power to lay down His life and to raise
Himself from the dead: "I lay down my life, that I
might take it again... I have power to lay it down,
and I have power to take it again" (John 10:17-18).
Which does not support the false doctrine of a triune god.
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Glenn said on July 20, 10:28 am:
...triune or 'tri-unity' is not taught explicitly
(or implicitly either) in the New Testament.
It is: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the
Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19).
This is a late addition to God's Word, inserted by Roman Catholic
trinitarians in an attempt to support that false doctrine
Three Persons, One Name, One God;
Evan this falsification of His word does not state "Three Persons, One
Name, One God"
That is the trinitarian falsification of their own perversion of His Word.
for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and the Son:
There is no scripture which makes that statement.
In fact, the Spirit of God IS God: That is, God the Father and the
Spirit of God are one single, unique individual.
There is no scripture which describes the spirit of God as a persona of
a multiple personality being.
"For it is not > ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father"
(Matthew 10:20),
Does not describe " the Spirit of your Father" as a persona of a triune
god. In fact, the Spirit of God IS God. God the Father and the Spirit of
God are a single, unique, individual being.
"It is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost" (Mark 13:11),
"Even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father"
(John 15:26);
"The Lord is that Spirit" (2 Corinthians 3:17),
"Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that
the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have
not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans
8:9),
The spirit of God and God the Father, is one unique, individual being.
Jesus Christ and the Spirit of Christ, is one unique, individual being.
"He breathed on them, and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (John 20:22).
Again, does not support the false doctrine of a triune god.
For a Scriptural doctrine of God, see:
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
Glenn
His witness
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
Note, the site at xprt.net will close 1Sept07 and open as
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE? |
24 Jul 2007 07:57:07 AM |
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Glenn said on July 22, 12:36 pm:
...a confusion of the TERMS "One" and "God."
For a scriptural definition of these terms...
The Trinity doctrine doesn't contradict the
scriptural definition of "One" and "God".
Glenn said:
...more than one person (God the Father and His
Son) have been described or called "God." That is
not the same thing as "more than one person being
God."
The fact that the Bible refers to both the Father and
the Son as being "God" at the same time (John
20:17,28) is the same thing as more than one Person
being God at the same time.
Glenn said:
This does not explicitly or implicitly teach that
God is a multiple personality being.
God is not one Person with multiple personalities,
nor is He (that old straw man) a monster with three
heads; instead, He is One God who is three separate
Persons at the same time (Matthew 3:16-17).
Glenn said:
Jesus was 'brought forth' from God the Father
before He created the Heavens and Earth.
Proverbs 8:25 doesn't mean that there was ever a time
when Jesus didn't exist, for He is "from everlasting"
(Proverbs 8:23, Micah 5:2, Habakkuk 1:12).
Glenn said:
[Re: Genesis 2:24] "One" in this context does not
mean "same" or "single body."
In John 10:30, while "One" doesn't mean "single
body" (for only the Son has a body), it does mean the
same "God" (John 10:33).
Glenn said:
Jesus did not give himself to be killed for our
sins.
Jesus did give Himself to be killed for our sins
(Titus 2:14).
Glenn said:
that Jesus is the Creator certainly does
demonstrate that Jesus was brought forth and was
with His Father before 'the beginning'
That Jesus is the Creator of all things created
(John 1:3) demonstrates that He Himself is uncreated.
Glenn said:
Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour,
not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but
only the Father." [Mark 13:32]
Jesus did not know THEN, before He ascended after
His resurrection.
Mark 13:32 doesn't say or require that Jesus didn't
know the day and hour before His incarnation
(Philippians 2:6) or after His resurrection
(Colossians 2:3).
Glenn said:
The TERM "God" is used both to mean "one with
Absolute Authority" AND to mean "kind of Being."
Jesus said, "God is a Spirit" John 4:24 KJV,
describing the kind of Being God the Father IS.
Jesus has absolute authority (Matthew 28:18), and is
the Spirit Being (2 Corinthians 3:17) just as His
-Father is.
Glenn said:
The Son of God was the Son of God before Creation
The Son of God wasn't the Son of God until He was
born as a man through the virgin Mary (Luke 1:35).
Glenn said:
[Re: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of
the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19)]:
-
This is a late addition to God's Word, inserted by
Roman Catholic trinitarians in an attempt to
support that false doctrine
There's no proof that Matthew 28:19 wasn't in the
original manuscript of Matthew; it's referring to
the same three Persons as Matthew 3:16-17. And Acts
19:2-3 confirms that reference to the Holy Spirit was
included in Christian baptism.
Glenn said:
[Re: Matthew 28:19] does not state "Three Persons,
One Name, One God"
Matthew 28:19 refers to three Persons but to only one
Name, because the three Persons are One God.
Glenn said:
[Re: The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father
and the Son]:
There is no scripture which makes that statement.
Matthew 10:20 and Mark 13:11 refer to the same
Spirit, so the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the
-Father (John 15:26); and 2 Corinthians 3:17 says
that Jesus is that Spirit (Romans 8:9, John 20:22).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Glenn said on July 22, 6:37 pm:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"
Deu 6:4
The Lord our God is not a 'triune god.'
Deuteronomy 6:4 doesn't say "not a triune God", for
the "une" of "triune" retains the "One" part of
"One YHWH", as does John 10:30; and Jesus is YHWH;
"YHWH is my shepherd" (Psalms 23:1), "I am the good
shepherd" (John 10:11). "This same Jesus, which is
taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like
manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then
returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called
Olivet" (Acts 1:11-12), "Then shall YHWH go forth,
and fight against those nations, as when he fought
in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in
that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:3-4).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
psalmsmith said on July 23, 11:50 am:
We were discussing the 'components' of God as
compared to the 'components' of man; and connecting
that to the revelation that 'God made man in His
Own image,' and then speculating on how that may
relate to the image of the Godhead.
-
The conclusion I reached, was that in the similar
fashion as man is 'composed of' will, faculty, and
soul; so also is God 'composed of' Father Son and
Spirit.
-
And yet a man is but one being. Likewise God is
but one being.
God made man in His own image in the sense that just
as God is Will, Word, and Spirit (literally, Breath),
so man is will, word, and breath. Just as man's word
and breath are subordinate to his will, so God's Word
and Spirit are subordinate to the Will of the Father.
Just as man's word is one with his will and his
breath, so God's Word is one with the Father and the
Spirit. Just as man's word can exist as a thought
in his mind before being spoken using his breath, so
God's Word (Logos, includes Thought) existed before
being incarnated using His Spirit (Luke 1:35). Just
as man has had thought and breath as long as he has
existed, so God's Thought and Spirit have existed as
long as He has existed: "from everlasting" (Habakkuk
1:12, Micah 5:2, Proverbs 8:23).
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE? |
24 Jul 2007 02:19:07 PM |
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Read The Bible wrote:
Glenn said on July 22, 12:36 pm:
...a confusion of the TERMS "One" and "God."
For a scriptural definition of these terms...
The Trinity doctrine doesn't contradict the
scriptural definition of "One" and "God".
You falsify my statement to fight with a Straw Man of your own creation.
I said, quote, a confusion of the TERMS "One" and "God." end quote.
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
The doctrine of a triune god redefines the the terms "One" and "God" to
support that lie.
The definition of God as given in Scripture is NOT "type, triune."
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
Glenn said:
...more than one person (God the Father and His
Son) have been described or called "God." That is
not the same thing as "more than one person being
God."
The fact that the Bible refers to both the Father and
the Son as being "God" at the same time (John
20:17,28) is the same thing as more than one Person
being God at the same time.
The problem is the trinitarian redefinition of the term "God" to mean
"triune being."
Glenn said:
This does not explicitly or implicitly teach that
God is a multiple personality being.
God is not one Person with multiple personalities,
nor is He (that old straw man) a monster with three
heads; instead, He is One God who is three separate
Persons at the same time (Matthew 3:16-17).
Paraphrase the title of that false doctrine how you will, it is still a
false doctrine.
God is nowhere described as a triune god.
Abraham did not believe in, or describe, as god as a triune being.
Glenn said:
Jesus was 'brought forth' from God the Father
before He created the Heavens and Earth.
Proverbs 8:25 doesn't mean that there was ever a time
when Jesus didn't exist, for He is "from everlasting"
(Proverbs 8:23, Micah 5:2, Habakkuk 1:12).
"From everlasting" does not state that the Son did not come forth from
the Father before the creation of Time.
The definition of the TERMS "Father" and "Son" indicates that the Father
precede the Son, and that the Son 'comes forth from' the Father.
Trinity doctrine seeks to deny and falsify the relationship of Jesus the
Son to His Father God.
Glenn said:
[Re: Genesis 2:24] "One" in this context does not
mean "same" or "single body."
In John 10:30, while "One" doesn't mean "single
body" (for only the Son has a body), it does mean the
same "God" (John 10:33).
No, it does not mean "same god," THAT is the false doctrine of a triune god.
John 10:33 is a false accusation, which Jesus denied.
I find it significant that the trinitarians continually make the same
false accusation.
Glenn said:
Jesus did not give himself to be killed for our
sins.
Jesus did give Himself to be killed for our sins
(Titus 2:14).
You manipulate the sense: Jesus did not give himself in the same sense,
the same meaning of the TERM, as His Father.
As commanded by His Father, Jesus obeyed the will of His Father.
Glenn said:
that Jesus is the Creator certainly does
demonstrate that Jesus was brought forth and was
with His Father before 'the beginning'
That Jesus is the Creator of all things created
(John 1:3) demonstrates that He Himself is uncreated.
Certainly Jesus, the Son of God, is "un-created".
Glenn said:
Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour,
not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but
only the Father." [Mark 13:32]
Jesus did not know THEN, before He ascended after
His resurrection.
Mark 13:32 doesn't say or require that Jesus didn't
know the day and hour before His incarnation
(Philippians 2:6) or after His resurrection
(Colossians 2:3).
Mark 13:32 may not require it, but it certainly STATES it!
"... nor the Son,.."
You falsify the Word of God in the defense of false doctrine.
Glenn said:
The TERM "God" is used both to mean "one with
Absolute Authority" AND to mean "kind of Being."
Jesus said, "God is a Spirit" John 4:24 KJV,
describing the kind of Being God the Father IS.
Jesus has absolute authority (Matthew 28:18), and is
the Spirit Being (2 Corinthians 3:17) just as His
-Father is.
Certainly! Jesus has "ALL Power and ALL Authority BECAUSE His Father
_GAVE_ it to Him. Ps 110:1-2, Mat 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28
"All power is _given_ me...." Mat 28:18.
To "be given" is an explicit statement that one did not have...
Glenn said:
The Son of God was the Son of God before Creation
The Son of God wasn't the Son of God until He was
born as a man through the virgin Mary (Luke 1:35).
Wrong: The Son of God was the Son of God BEFORE the Beginning, and Jesus
was the Son of Man AFTER He was conceived of and born of Mary.
Glenn said:
[Re: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of
the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19)]:
-
This is a late addition to God's Word, inserted by
Roman Catholic trinitarians in an attempt to
support that false doctrine
There's no proof that Matthew 28:19 wasn't in the
original manuscript of Matthew;
There certainly is.
google for "Matthew 28:19"
or see
http://tinyurl.com/2v5jan
it's referring to
the same three Persons as Matthew 3:16-17.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the
water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he [John] saw the
Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon [Jesus] him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom
I am well pleased.
There is no description in this scripture of the Spirit of God being a
persona of a triune being.
There is no description in this scripture of the Jesus being a persona
of a triune being.
There is no description in this scripture of God the Father being a
persona of a triune being.
In point of FACT, this scripture confirms and emphasizes the Father/Son
relationship of God the Father and the Son of God WHICH fact denies the
doctrine of a triune god.
And Acts
19:2-3 confirms that reference to the Holy Spirit was
included in Christian baptism.
None of which supports the false doctrine of a triune god.
Glenn said:
[Re: Matthew 28:19] does not state "Three Persons,
One Name, One God"
Matthew 28:19 refers to three Persons but to only one
Name, because the three Persons are One God.
False interpretation of the trinitarians:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,"
Does NOT state that three persons are one god.
This scripture is an example of the trinitarian efforts to falsify God's
Word to support a false doctrine.
http://tinyurl.com/2v5jan
Glenn said:
[Re: The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father
and the Son]:
There is no scripture which makes that statement.
Matthew 10:20 and Mark 13:11 refer to the same
Spirit, so the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the
-Father (John 15:26); and 2 Corinthians 3:17 says
that Jesus is that Spirit (Romans 8:9, John 20:22).
The Spirit of God IS God, not a persona of a triune being.
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Glenn said on July 22, 6:37 pm:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"
Deu 6:4
The Lord our God is not a 'triune god.'
Deuteronomy 6:4 doesn't say "not a triune God",
Clip sophistry.
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" IS a statement that God
is not a God resembling the gods of the pagans worshiped. The pagan
nations around Israel worshiped multiple or triune gods, and the Spirit
of God declared that God is one [not triune]...
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
psalmsmith said on July 23, 11:50 am:
We were discussing the 'components' of God as
compared to the 'components' of man; and connecting
that to the revelation that 'God made man in His
Own image,' and then speculating on how that may
relate to the image of the Godhead.
-
The conclusion I reached, was that in the similar
fashion as man is 'composed of' will, faculty, and
soul; so also is God 'composed of' Father Son and
Spirit.
-
And yet a man is but one being. Likewise God is
but one being.
God made man in His own image in the sense that just
as God is Will, Word, and Spirit (literally, Breath),
so man is will, word, and breath. Just as man's word
and breath are subordinate to his will, so God's Word
and Spirit are subordinate to the Will of the Father.
'The Word', the Son of God, is in submission to God the Father, as Jesus
stated.
Just as man's word is one with his will and his
breath,
Ah! here you have BOTH altered your metaphor, and have included the term
"one" meaning "Same"
so God's Word is one with the Father and the
Spirit.
The Son is "One" meaning "Unified" as in submisison to and agreement
with, having the purpose and goal.
<Snip remaining sophistry>
A scriptural Doctrine of God
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
Glenn
His witness
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
Note, the site at xprt.net will close 1Sept07 and open as
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE? |
25 Jul 2007 05:39:48 AM |
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Glenn said on July 24, 12:19 pm:
The doctrine of a triune god redefines the the
terms "One" and "God"
The Trinity doctrine doesn't contradict the
scriptural definition of the terms "One" and "God".
Glenn said:
God is nowhere described as a triune god.
God is nowhere described as not a triune god. The
Bible shows both the Father and the Son as being
God at the same time (John 20:17,28), and it shows
that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father
(Matthew 10:20 & Mark 13:11).
Glenn said:
Abraham did not believe in, or describe, as god as
a triune being.
Scripture nowhere says that Abraham did not believe
in god as a triune being, or that Abraham ever
described God as not a triune being. In Genesis, the
One God is able to speak in the plural: "And God
said, Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26).
Glenn said:
"From everlasting" does not state that the Son did
not come forth from the Father before the creation
of Time.
That Jesus/YHWH is "from everlasting" (Proverbs 8:23,
Micah 5:2, Habakkuk 1:12) does state that He has
always existed. So His being "brought forth"
(Proverbs 8:24) in no way means that He didn't exist
before He was brought forth. Just as a man's word can
exist as a thought in his mind before being brought
forth in speech, so God's Word (Logos, includes
Thought) existed before being brought forth as the
Creator (John 1:1-3).
Glenn said:
The definition of the TERMS "Father" and "Son"
indicates that the Father precede the Son
The terms "Father" and "Son" in relation to God did
not come into effect until Jesus was born as a man
from the virgin Mary: "And the angel answered and
said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee;
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born
of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).
Glenn said:
John 10:33 is a false accusation, which Jesus
denied.
John 10:33, like John 1:1 and John 20:28, is a true
accusation, which Jesus never denied.
Glenn said:
Jesus, the Son of God, is "un-created".
The fact that Jesus is uncreated proves that He is
the One God with the Father, for only the One God is
uncreated.
Glenn said:
[Re: Mark 13:32 doesn't say or require that Jesus
didn't know the day and hour before His incarnation
(Philippians 2:6) or after His resurrection
(Colossians 2:3)]:
-
Mark 13:32 may not require it, but it certainly
STATES it!
Mark 13:32 does not state that Jesus didn't know the
day and hour before His incarnation (Philippians 2:6)
or after His resurrection (Colossians 2:3). All
Mark 13:32 states is that Jesus didn't know the day
and hour; this limited knowledge may have applied
only during the time period after He was made a man
like other men (Hebrews 2:17), and before His
resurrection.
Glenn said:
"All power is _given_ me...." Mat 28:18.
To "be given" is an explicit statement that one did
not have...
Matthew 28:18 does not state that Jesus didn't have
all power before He was made a man like other men
(Philippians 2:6-7). All Matthew 28:18 states is that
Jesus, now being a man, was given all power as a man
after His resurrection.
Glenn said:
The Son of God was the Son of God BEFORE the
Beginning, and Jesus was the Son of Man AFTER He
was conceived of and born of Mary.
Jesus did not become the Son of God or the Son of
man until he was born of Mary (Luke 1:35).
Glenn said:
[Re: There's no proof that Matthew 28:19 wasn't in
the original manuscript of Matthew]
-
There certainly is.
All there are are unproven opinions against Matthew
28:19, no proof.
Glenn said:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" IS a
statement that God is not a God resembling the gods
of the pagans worshiped. The pagan nations around
Israel worshiped multiple or triune gods, and the
Spirit of God declared that God is one [not triune]
The Spirit of God never declared that the One God is
not triune, for Jesus is YHWH: "YHWH is my shepherd"
(Psalms 23:1), "I am the good shepherd" (John 10:11).
"This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into
heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen
him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem
from the mount called Olivet" (Acts 1:11-12), "Then
shall YHWH go forth, and fight against those nations,
as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet
shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives"
(Zechariah 14:3-4).
Glenn said:
'The Word', the Son of God, is in submission to God
the Father
Yes, just as a man's word and breath are subordinate to
his will, so God's Word and Spirit are subordinate to
the Father.
Glenn said:
[Re: Just as man's word is one with his will and his
breath, so God's Word is one with the Father and
the Spirit]
Ah! here you have BOTH altered your metaphor, and
have included the term "one" meaning "Same"
Just as one man's will, word, and breath exist in
the same man, so the Father, Word, and Spirit exist
in the same God.
Just as one man's word can exist as a thought in his
mind before being spoken using his breath, so the
One God's Word (Logos, includes Thought) existed
before being incarnated using His Spirit (Luke 1:35).
Just as one man has had thought and breath as long as
he has existed, so the One God's Thought and Spirit
have existed as long as He has existed: "from
everlasting" (Habakkuk 1:12, Micah 5:2, Proverbs
8:23).
.
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| User: "Gunny Freedom" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
22 Jul 2007 03:13:15 PM |
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In article <f80bk1036@enews2.newsguy.com>,
Glenn <gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote:
Read The Bible wrote:
Glenn said on July 20, 8:20 am:
...the doctrine of the trinity is NOT taught
explicitly (or implicitly) in the Old Testament.
It is;
No, your understanding is a confusion of the TERMS "One" and "God."
For a scriptural definition of these terms, see:
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
My own understanding of the term "one" is as a singularity. There is
not 'oneness' in God, for God is ONE.
God does not share His glory with another, nor is there a pantheon of
will. there is one will, the will of God. God, the ONE.
singularity. pure and powerful. indivisible, like one microscopic
point in space concealing the gravity of a thousand suns. This is the
meaning of "one" to me when I read that "God is one."
for the One God is more than one Person in the Old Testament:
Scripture does not say that.
You have it backwards: more than one person (God the Father and His Son)
have been described or called "God." That is not the same thing as "more
than one person being God."
That is the false conclusion and statement of the trinitarian doctrine.
"And God said, Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26).
And what then is the image of man? Is man not a singularity of being
himself?
And yet man is composed of three: mind, motive, and soul.
Perhaps God, in the image of Father, Son, and Spirit
made the singular man also of mind, motive, and soul?
Fine. Jesus was with His Father before 'the beginning.'
One God. the singularity.
This does not explicitly or implicitly teach that God is a multiple
personality being.
The New Testament
confirms that Jesus is the Creator: "All things were
made by him; and without him was not any thing made
that was made" (John 1:3).
Yes, Jesus was with His Father before the beginning.
This does not describe or teach a multiple personality being.
No. Of course not.
The Old Testament says that Jesus has existed "from
everlasting": "Thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou
be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of
thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler
in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old,
from everlasting" (Micah 5:2).
Yes, Jesus was with His Father before the Beginning.
Does not explicitly or implicitly teach that God as a multiple
personality being.
One God. a singularity.
The New Testament
confirms the pre-existence of Jesus before He became
a man: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).
Yes, Jesus was 'brought forth' from God the Father before He created the
Heavens and Earth.
This does not describe God as a multiple personality being.
No, of course not. and I completely agree. 8-)
--
Gunny Freedom's Blog: http://libertyline.blogspot.com/
Gunny's Hangout: http://www.rwva.org/yabbse/index.php "Liberty's Price"
Become a Rifleman: http://appleseedinfo.org/
.
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| User: "Sam Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
22 Jul 2007 03:42:40 PM |
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And yet man is composed of three: mind, motive, and soul.
actualy the scripture says 4 Mind , Body, Spirit, and strength
so Who is the 4th member of your quadrinity.
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| User: "psalmsmith" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
22 Jul 2007 03:50:57 PM |
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In article <16g7a3h2drlen71495pv1fudsok1u9albk@4ax.com>,
Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote:
And yet man is composed of three: mind, motive, and soul.
actualy the scripture says 4 Mind , Body, Spirit, and strength
so Who is the 4th member of your quadrinity.
actually, I thought strength was an attribute, not a component. {:-)
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| User: "Sam Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
23 Jul 2007 11:43:43 AM |
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On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:50:57 -0400, psalmsmith <psalmsmith@nc.rr.com>
wrote:
In article <16g7a3h2drlen71495pv1fudsok1u9albk@4ax.com>,
Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote:
And yet man is composed of three: mind, motive, and soul.
actualy the scripture says 4 Mind , Body, Spirit, and strength
so Who is the 4th member of your quadrinity.
actually, I thought strength was an attribute, not a component. {:-)
The scripture say to love G-D with your whole Mind, body, strength,
and spirit.
all 4 are atributes.
but you take only 3 of the 4 to imply your trinity theory, next we
will get the egg as an example of this Magical G-D when in fact an egg
has 4 parts, with the sack or membrane, the skin of the Egg, which is
the white thing just inside the shell which is formed, then the yolk,
then the white, and finaly the shell forms around this membrane.
if not you wouldn't have an Egg you would just have a yellow mess.
.
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| User: "psalmsmith" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
23 Jul 2007 01:50:03 PM |
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In article <25m9a39kltqvc77r9h7b5htp627deigr36@4ax.com>,
Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:50:57 -0400, psalmsmith <psalmsmith@nc.rr.com>
wrote:
In article <16g7a3h2drlen71495pv1fudsok1u9albk@4ax.com>,
Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote:
And yet man is composed of three: mind, motive, and soul.
actualy the scripture says 4 Mind , Body, Spirit, and strength
so Who is the 4th member of your quadrinity.
actually, I thought strength was an attribute, not a component. {:-)
The scripture say to love G-D with your whole Mind, body, strength,
and spirit.
all 4 are atributes.
Then they are not components. We were discussing the 'components' of
God as compared to the 'components' of man; and connecting that to the
revelation that 'God made man in His Own image,' and then speculating on
how that may relate to the image of the Godhead.
The conclusion I reached, was that in the similar fashion as man is
'composed of' will, faculty, and soul; so also is God 'composed of'
Father Son and Spirit.
And yet a man is but one being. Likewise God is but one being.
And I agree with you, that when our will, faculty, and soul love Him, we
SHOULD love Him with all our strength. Too often we siphon some of that
strength onto other pursuits...or maybe even things coveted.
but you take only 3 of the 4 to imply your trinity theory, next we
will get the egg as an example of this Magical G-D when in fact an egg
has 4 parts, with the sack or membrane, the skin of the Egg, which is
the white thing just inside the shell which is formed, then the yolk,
then the white, and finaly the shell forms around this membrane.
if not you wouldn't have an Egg you would just have a yellow mess.
Things of the earth can only make crude similes when trying to explain
concepts that are simply beyond our universe.
For instance, within this universe it is easy to understand how
"FACULTY" could include both body and strength; but it implies that we
could one day lose our bodies, without losing any strength, no?
.
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| User: "Sam Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
24 Jul 2007 12:08:54 PM |
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On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:50:03 -0400, psalmsmith <psalmsmith@nc.rr.com>
wrote:
In article <25m9a39kltqvc77r9h7b5htp627deigr36@4ax.com>,
Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:50:57 -0400, psalmsmith <psalmsmith@nc.rr.com>
wrote:
In article <16g7a3h2drlen71495pv1fudsok1u9albk@4ax.com>,
Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote:
And yet man is composed of three: mind, motive, and soul.
actualy the scripture says 4 Mind , Body, Spirit, and strength
so Who is the 4th member of your quadrinity.
actually, I thought strength was an attribute, not a component. {:-)
The scripture say to love G-D with your whole Mind, body, strength,
and spirit.
all 4 are atributes.
Then they are not components. We were discussing the 'components' of
God as compared to the 'components' of man; and connecting that to the
revelation that 'God made man in His Own image,' and then speculating on
how that may relate to the image of the Godhead.
The conclusion I reached, was that in the similar fashion as man is
'composed of' will, faculty, and soul; so also is God 'composed of'
Father Son and Spirit.
And yet a man is but one being. Likewise God is but one being.
And I agree with you, that when our will, faculty, and soul love Him, we
SHOULD love Him with all our strength. Too often we siphon some of that
strength onto other pursuits...or maybe even things coveted.
but you take only 3 of the 4 to imply your trinity theory, next we
will get the egg as an example of this Magical G-D when in fact an egg
has 4 parts, with the sack or membrane, the skin of the Egg, which is
the white thing just inside the shell which is formed, then the yolk,
then the white, and finaly the shell forms around this membrane.
if not you wouldn't have an Egg you would just have a yellow mess.
Things of the earth can only make crude similes when trying to explain
concepts that are simply beyond our universe.
For instance, within this universe it is easy to understand how
"FACULTY" could include both body and strength; but it implies that we
could one day lose our bodies, without losing any strength, no?
You can imagine anything you want to, but to base doctrine on your
imagination , is a big error.
The bible says nothing about your 3 headed G-D theory
unless one reads a whole lot of Scriptures out of context.
there a 6 scriptures that hint or imply it, and 637 that
state emphaticly it is false Doctrine.
to state it has anything to do with salvation, is the biggest herasy,
and to imply salvation is based upon works.
Salvation is by Grace to do the works, in fact that work is the
purpose of salvation, not the means of salvation
I do agree with you that to try to accept and understand this Magic
theory, might drive a person mad.
That is why the scriptures teach us we have 1 G-D, and 1 Lord
notice it was not LORD or lord, but Lord, the scripture states.
that is as important as knowing the differences between G-D, G-d, and
g-d
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| User: "psalmsmith" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
24 Jul 2007 12:55:28 PM |
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In article <8sbca3lrv4sfc3l678d80k4g66tsgf820r@4ax.com>,
Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:50:03 -0400, psalmsmith <psalmsmith@nc.rr.com>
wrote:
In article <25m9a39kltqvc77r9h7b5htp627deigr36@4ax.com>,
Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:50:57 -0400, psalmsmith <psalmsmith@nc.rr.com>
wrote:
In article <16g7a3h2drlen71495pv1fudsok1u9albk@4ax.com>,
Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote:
And yet man is composed of three: mind, motive, and soul.
actualy the scripture says 4 Mind , Body, Spirit, and strength
so Who is the 4th member of your quadrinity.
actually, I thought strength was an attribute, not a component. {:-)
The scripture say to love G-D with your whole Mind, body, strength,
and spirit.
all 4 are atributes.
Then they are not components. We were discussing the 'components' of
God as compared to the 'components' of man; and connecting that to the
revelation that 'God made man in His Own image,' and then speculating on
how that may relate to the image of the Godhead.
The conclusion I reached, was that in the similar fashion as man is
'composed of' will, faculty, and soul; so also is God 'composed of'
Father Son and Spirit.
And yet a man is but one being. Likewise God is but one being.
And I agree with you, that when our will, faculty, and soul love Him, we
SHOULD love Him with all our strength. Too often we siphon some of that
strength onto other pursuits...or maybe even things coveted.
but you take only 3 of the 4 to imply your trinity theory, next we
will get the egg as an example of this Magical G-D when in fact an egg
has 4 parts, with the sack or membrane, the skin of the Egg, which is
the white thing just inside the shell which is formed, then the yolk,
then the white, and finaly the shell forms around this membrane.
if not you wouldn't have an Egg you would just have a yellow mess.
Things of the earth can only make crude similes when trying to explain
concepts that are simply beyond our universe.
For instance, within this universe it is easy to understand how
"FACULTY" could include both body and strength; but it implies that we
could one day lose our bodies, without losing any strength, no?
You can imagine anything you want to, but to base doctrine on your
imagination , is a big error.
The bible says nothing about your 3 headed G-D theory
not sure what you mean by a "3 headed god." that doesn't seem to
describe the God that I worship at all. Maybe you have me mixed up with
someone else?
unless one reads a whole lot of Scriptures out of context.
there a 6 scriptures that hint or imply it, and 637 that
state emphaticly it is false Doctrine.
to state it has anything to do with salvation, is the biggest herasy,
and to imply salvation is based upon works.
Salvation is by Grace to do the works, in fact that work is the
purpose of salvation, not the means of salvation
I do agree with you that to try to accept and understand this Magic
theory, might drive a person mad.
That is why the scriptures teach us we have 1 G-D, and 1 Lord
notice it was not LORD or lord, but Lord, the scripture states.
that is as important as knowing the differences between G-D, G-d, and
g-d
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| User: "Sam Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
25 Jul 2007 02:23:39 PM |
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You can imagine anything you want to, but to base doctrine on your
imagination , is a big error.
The bible says nothing about your 3 headed G-D theory
not sure what you mean by a "3 headed god." that doesn't seem to
describe the God that I worship at all. Maybe you have me mixed up with
someone else?
unless one reads a whole lot of Scriptures out of context.
there a 6 scriptures that hint or imply it, and 637 that
state emphaticly it is false Doctrine.
to state it has anything to do with salvation, is the biggest herasy,
and to imply salvation is based upon works.
Salvation is by Grace to do the works, in fact that work is the
purpose of salvation, not the means of salvation
I do agree with you that to try to accept and understand this Magic
theory, might drive a person mad.
That is why the scriptures teach us we have 1 G-D, and 1 Lord
notice it was not LORD or lord, but Lord, the scripture states.
that is as important as knowing the differences between G-D, G-d, and
g-d
Excuse Me I thought You believe the other Trinity Doctrine as there
are 2 major theoris, 1 the holy Heavenly siamese triplette theory
of 3 G-D's with 1 Name
2 the Multiple Personality Disorder G-D of 1 G-D with 3 names
and Names defined as authority.
.
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| User: "psalmsmith" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
25 Jul 2007 03:45:09 PM |
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In article <3h8fa3l4bc1fnqmejm0098rltpkcvn2hlp@4ax.com>,
Sam Taylor <cygnet@cncnet.com> wrote:
You can imagine anything you want to, but to base doctrine on your
imagination , is a big error.
The bible says nothing about your 3 headed G-D theory
not sure what you mean by a "3 headed god." that doesn't seem to
describe the God that I worship at all. Maybe you have me mixed up with
someone else?
unless one reads a whole lot of Scriptures out of context.
there a 6 scriptures that hint or imply it, and 637 that
state emphaticly it is false Doctrine.
to state it has anything to do with salvation, is the biggest herasy,
and to imply salvation is based upon works.
Salvation is by Grace to do the works, in fact that work is the
purpose of salvation, not the means of salvation
I do agree with you that to try to accept and understand this Magic
theory, might drive a person mad.
That is why the scriptures teach us we have 1 G-D, and 1 Lord
notice it was not LORD or lord, but Lord, the scripture states.
that is as important as knowing the differences between G-D, G-d, and
g-d
Excuse Me I thought You believe the other Trinity Doctrine as there
are 2 major theoris, 1 the holy Heavenly siamese triplette theory
of 3 G-D's with 1 Name
2 the Multiple Personality Disorder G-D of 1 G-D with 3 names
and Names defined as authority.
None of those sound familiar to me.
I neither understand God as "siamese triplets" nor as a "personality
disorder."
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
22 Jul 2007 04:29:43 PM |
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Gunny Freedom wrote:
In article <f80bk1036@enews2.newsguy.com>,
Glenn <gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote:
Read The Bible wrote:
Glenn said on July 20, 8:20 am:
...the doctrine of the trinity is NOT taught
explicitly (or implicitly) in the Old Testament.
It is;
No, your understanding is a confusion of the TERMS "One" and "God."
For a scriptural definition of these terms, see:
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
My own understanding of the term "one" is as a singularity. There is
not 'oneness' in God, for God is ONE.
Taking the TERM "One" to mean more than Zero and Less than Two, the
problem then becomes your definition of the TERM "God."
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave
unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (Gen 2:24) In this context
the definition of "One" is "Unified", meaning of common purpose, agreed.
The TERM "God" is used both in the sense of "Kind of Being" and
Absolute Ruler, as in "to Reign with ALL Power and ALL authority". Ps
110_1-2, Mat 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28
God does not share His glory with another,
Which is not to say that another (the Son) may not have glory of His
own, or will not be glorified by His Father. John 16:14.
Again, the problem is the Definition of the TERM "God."
See 1 Cor 15:24-28.
nor is there a pantheon of will. there is one will, the will of God.
Again, the problem is the definition of the TERM "God." Jesus called God
the Father His Father AND His God.
God, the ONE.
Again, the problem is BOTH the problem with the definitions of "God" and
"One."
singularity. pure and powerful. indivisible, like one microscopic
point in space concealing the gravity of a thousand suns. This is the
meaning of "one" to me when I read that "God is one."
I do understand the meaning you use -- it is just that I don't agree
with this definition.
for the One God is more than one Person in the Old Testament:
Scripture does not say that.
You have it backwards: more than one person (God the Father and His Son)
have been described or called "God." That is not the same thing as "more
than one person being God."
That is the false conclusion and statement of the trinitarian doctrine.
"And God said, Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26).
And what then is the image of man? Is man not a singularity of being
himself?
Each man is a 'singularity,' and each man is begotten by his father is a
'singularity.'
Just as each father is a 'singularity' himself, and his son is a
singularity himself, so is God the Father and the Spirit of God a
'singularity' and His Son Jesus and the Spirit of Christ is a 'singularity.'
But the 'singularity' of a man is NOT the 'same' singularity as his son;
nor is the 'singularity of God the Father' the 'same' singularity as the
'singularity' of Jesus His Son.
And yet man is composed of three: mind, motive, and soul.
Well, I would prefer 'body, mind and soul'...
And thus is God the Father composed of three: mind, motive and Spirit;
and thus is Jesus the Son of God composed of three: mind, motive and Spirit.
However, using the metaphor of man's mind, body and soul as a 'type' of
God, when you segue into stating that the Father, His Spirit and His Son
Jesus are a single being, becomes a false analogy.
Perhaps God, in the image of Father, Son, and Spirit
made the singular man also of mind, motive, and soul?
False analogy.
The Father (Being, Mind, Spirit), begot and brought forth His Son,
Jesus. The Son, Jesus, is the same Essence and Nature of His Father,
therefore His is Being, Mind and Spirit.
Jesus was with His Father before the Beginning, and by His Authority, He
created all things, including man in the image of God -- being, mind and
Spirit.
Fine. Jesus was with His Father before 'the beginning.'
One God. the singularity.
Definition problem.
This does not explicitly or implicitly teach that God is a multiple
personality being.
The New Testament
confirms that Jesus is the Creator: "All things were
made by him; and without him was not any thing made
that was made" (John 1:3).
Yes, Jesus was with His Father before the beginning.
This does not describe or teach a multiple personality being.
No. Of course not.
The Old Testament says that Jesus has existed "from
everlasting": "Thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou
be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of
thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler
in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old,
from everlasting" (Micah 5:2).
Yes, Jesus was with His Father before the Beginning.
Does not explicitly or implicitly teach that God as a multiple
personality being.
One God. a singularity.
Definition problem.
The New Testament
confirms the pre-existence of Jesus before He became
a man: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).
Yes, Jesus was 'brought forth' from God the Father before He created the
Heavens and Earth.
This does not describe God as a multiple personality being.
No, of course not. and I completely agree. 8-)
Even trinitarians use the TERM "God" as "kind of being" when they state
or imply God is "type - triune."
Even trinitarians use the TERM "God" as "title of Authority" when they
state "God" (type - triune) 'is the Supreme Ruler' (title of Authority)
of the Universe.
The PROBLEM is, that trinitarians do NOT want to acknowledge the diverse
definitions they use, OR clarify or support those definitions with
Scripture.
There ARE scripture which use the TERM "God" in the sense of "Being
Type." John 4:24 is just a single example. A second is Ps 82:6 and
confirmed by Jesus, John 10:34.
Ps 82:6 is NOT talking about "Ye being gods" in the sense of Absolute
Power or Absolute Authority and ruling in the place of God!! It IS
talking about the KIND of beings we will be when He comes for us and
takes us to be with Him.
There ARE scriptures which use the TERM "God" as "Supreme or Absolute
Ruler", or describe God as that Absolute Ruler. It is in this sense that
there is One Absolute Ruler -- because God the Father gave ALL Power and
ALL authority to His Son and gave Him to Rule. Ps 110:1-2, Mat 28:18,
and see sepecially 1 Cor 15:24-18.
Glenn
--
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
Note, the site at xprt.net will close 1Sept07 and open as
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.
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| User: "psalmsmith" |
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| Title: Re: TRINITY DOCTRINE AND SCRIPTURE? |
22 Jul 2007 06:07:20 PM |
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In article <f80i890o10@enews1.newsguy.com>,
Glenn <gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote:
Gunny Freedom wrote:
In article <f80bk1036@enews2.newsguy.com>,
Glenn <gamcclary@spiritone.com> wrote:
Read The Bible wrote:
Glenn said on July 20, 8:20 am:
...the doctrine of the trinity is NOT taught
explicitly (or implicitly) in the Old Testament.
It is;
No, your understanding is a confusion of the TERMS "One" and "God."
For a scriptural definition of these terms, see:
http://tinyurl.com/2lw6ev
My own understanding of the term "one" is as a singularity. There is
not 'oneness' in God, for God is ONE.
Taking the TERM "One" to mean more than Zero and Less than Two, the
problem then becomes your definition of the TERM "God."
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave
unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (Gen 2:24) In this context
the definition of "One" is "Unified", meaning of common purpose, agreed.
The TERM "God" is used both in the sense of "Kind of Being" and
Absolute Ruler, as in "to Reign with ALL Power and ALL authority". Ps
110_1-2, Mat 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28
God, in the simile I have presented on the singularity; would be likened
to the black hole at the center of the universe. Nothing in the
universe escapes it's gravity.
God is the One who IS. The BEING. the I AM. the source of existence
itself.
there is ONE Being and only one that is God, and the face of this Being
is known to me, as Jesus Christ.
God does not share His glory with another,
Which is not to say that another (the Son) may not have glory of His
own, or will not be glorified by His Father. John 16:14.
Again, the problem is the Definition of the TERM "God."
See 1 Cor 15:24-28.
God cannot be defined.
a term can be defined to death, but God Himself cannot be defined. God
defines Himself to us: God is love, God is justice, God is the Great
Provider. We come to know God by experiencing Him first hand.
We each learn of Him, by how He defines Himself to us.
God can be recognized, however, and it is through this recognition that
we see in the living Face of God (that is Jesus Christ) and know it is
God, oh God with us in audience.
The Christ we have experienced is not the same kind of being that
created the heavens and the earth, He is exactly the same being that
created the heavens and the earth.
I lost the trail below so I can't really address it.
nor is there a pantheon of will. there is one will, the will of God.
Again, the problem is the definition of the TERM "God." Jesus called God
the Father His Father AND His God.
God, the ONE.
Again, the problem is BOTH the problem with the definitions of "God" and
"One."
singularity. pure and powerful. indivisible, like one microscopic
point in space concealing the gravity of a thousand suns. This is the
meaning of "one" to me when I read that "God is one."
I do understand the meaning you use -- it is just that I don't agree
with this definition.
for the One God is more than one Person in the Old Testament:
Scripture does not say that.
You have it backwards: more than one person (God the Father and His Son)
have been described or called "God." That is not the same thing as "more
than one person being God."
That is the false conclusion and statement of the trinitarian doctrine.
"And God said, Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26).
And what then is the image of man? Is man not a singularity of being
himself?
Each man is a 'singularity,' and each man is begotten by his father is a
'singularity.'
Just as each father is a 'singularity' himself, and his son is a
singularity himself, so is God the Father and the Spirit of God a
'singularity' and His Son Jesus and the Spirit of Christ is a 'singularity.'
But the 'singularity' of a man is NOT the 'same' singularity as his son;
nor is the 'singularity of God the Father' the 'same' singularity as the
'singularity' of Jesus His Son.
And yet man is composed of three: mind, motive, and soul.
Well, I would prefer 'body, mind and soul'...
And thus is God the Father composed of three: mind, motive and Spirit;
and thus is Jesus the Son of God composed of three: mind, motive and Spirit.
However, using the metaphor of man's mind, body and soul as a 'type' of
God, when you segue into stating that the Father, His Spirit and His Son
Jesus are a single being, becomes a false analogy.
Perhaps God, in the image of Father, Son, and Spirit
made the singular man also of mind, motive, and soul?
False analogy.
The Father (Being, Mind, Spirit), begot and brought forth His Son,
Jesus. The Son, Jesus, is the same Essence and Nature of His Father,
therefore His is Being, Mind and Spirit.
Jesus was with His Father before the Beginning, and by His Authority, He
created all things, including man in the image of God -- being, mind and
Spirit.
Fine. Jesus was with His Father before 'the beginning.'
One God. the singularity.
Definition problem.
This does not explicitly or implicitly teach that God is a multiple
personality being.
The New Testament
confirms that Jesus is the Creator: "All things were
made by him; and without him was not any thing made
that was made" (John 1:3).
Yes, Jesus was with His Father before the beginning.
This does not describe or teach a multiple personality being.
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