On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 22:27:53 -0000,
"Josh" <jh@jillywoods.ABCkaroo.co.uk> wrote:

Craig Chilton <

"The Nice Mean Man" [who clearly is too ignorant
to realize that "nice mean" is an oxymoron, outside
of statistics] <HitherandYon@msn.com> wrote:

Dionisio <moc.rr.thgisni@5ellimd.com> wrote

"The Nice Mean Man [an oxymoron!] wrote:

Romans 1:26-27

26 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for
their women exchanged the natural function for that which is
unnatural,

<A major portion of the material *below* was omitted by the lying bigot
who idiotically ADMITS to being a "mean man." So I've RESTORED
ALL of it, in THIS post.>

Romans 1:26-27
First, let's start with a small note about context: One should not leap
into the middle of a paragraph and expect to get the true meaning of
what was written. So, let us start at the beginning; which just happens
to be verse 19. After all, it is rude to interrupt people when they are
talking. (One imagines that God does not like rudeness, especially when
He is the one being interrupted.)

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for
God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from
the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the
things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that
they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they
glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing
themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of
the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to
birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God
also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to
dishonor their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth
of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the
Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them
up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use
into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving
the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another;
men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves
that recompense of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did
not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a
reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being
filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness,
maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity;
whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters,
inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without under-
standing, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable,
unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which
commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but
have pleasure in them that do them.

Now I might be way off base here, but we seem to start out talking
about people who choose to worship idols instead of God. And the
punishment for that worship is that all the people -- presumably straight,
for it would be an odd sort of "curse" otherwise -- were made to love
members of the same sex. (Now do you see why I said it would be an
odd curse to bestow upon gay idol worshipers?)

The sin was idolatry. (Don't believe me? Open your own Bible and look
for yourself.) The punishment was a sadistic tweaking of their sex
drive. The fundamentalists -- when they try to start you out at verse 26
-- are hoping you never notice that they started the story in the
middle, despite the fact that verse 26 has a clearly implied "therefore."
The "therefore" signals that we've just missed some sort of "because
this happened" speech. It lets us know that, since a certain set of
set of conditions have been met, certain other things will happen --
or, as in the case of this Bible verse, that they have happened because
those previously mentioned conditions have been met. If one wants the
whole picture, one has to go back a few verses and see what those
conditions were.

And now for something that might surprise you: I think you should
consider reading on... Read the next chapter. (It's only 29 verses.) The
first verse alone should get you shaking your head over the unmitigated
gall of the people who claim that Romans calls homosexuality a sin. The
very first verse slaps them across the face. (Which is why they don't
stress that you read it too. They're quite content with your skipping
it.) The chapter continues on with various observations on the practice
of hypocrisy.

Chapter three continues with more talk about hypocrites and some
warnings for people not to fall into the same trap themselves. Heck, you
might want to read the rest of the book. It's only 16 chapters. (And
those chapters are generally not even a page in length.)

Go ahead, familiarize yourself with the Bible. You'll be doing both
yourself, and God, a favor. (Just try not to be surprised when "the
faithful" rant and rave and cry "foul!")

<snip...>

<UN-snipped. See above.>

<"Mean Man's" LIES then *justifiably* snipped>

Some snips (such as for brevity, propagandizing, lying, hate-
mongering, etc., are justifiable. And some are just plain stupid.
The snip that "Mean Man" made (now restored, above) was of
the latter variety. Because he ADMITTED that the snip was
made for reasons reflecting his own hateful bigotry. However...
the above restored material contains NOlies, and is a straight-
forward and honest discussion. Therefore, did not deserve to
be trashed by that obvious bigot.

And as Dionisio pointed out in response to that snip...

"Hmm... An extensive quotation of the Bible is
'demonic perversion' in your eyes... Interesting."

This letter of Paul to the Romans just mystifies me.

Had all this passion, unnatural intercourse and worshiping of idols that
Paul rants on about been going on before he arrived? Hadn't people been
getting on with their lives worshipping their idols and living by the local
laws for goodness knows how long quite happily, and then when Paul arrives
there is this sudden tide of wickedness and perversion because they didn't
do as Paul asked? This means that the wickedness was initiated by God when
the locals heard the Christian message and weren't prepared to take it on
board.

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I expect that the locals were living in a
pretty lawful, civilised, but not perfect state like any community in the
world then or now. It was Paul's extreme viewpoint that led to his outbreak
of bile. Just imagine how he would have sounded if he'd been handed a
microphone in the town square! I think the townspeople would have been
justifiably insulted. I know I would be if someone attacked my community as
Paul did in his words. Wouldn't you?

-- Craig Chilton

This letter of Paul to the Romans just mystifies me.

Had all this passion, unnatural intercourse and worshiping of idols that
Paul rants on about been going on before he arrived? Hadn't people been
getting on with their lives worshipping their idols and living by the local
laws for goodness knows how long quite happily, and then when Paul arrives
there is this sudden tide of wickedness and perversion because they didn't
do as Paul asked? This means that the wickedness was initiated by God when
the locals heard the Christian message and weren't prepared to take it on
board.

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I expect that the locals were living in a
pretty lawful, civilised, but not perfect state like any community in the
world then or now. It was Paul's extreme viewpoint that led to his outbreak
of bile. Just imagine how he would have sounded if he'd been handed a
microphone in the town square! I think the townspeople would have been
justifiably insulted. I know I would be if someone attacked my community as
Paul did in his words. Wouldn't you?