Religions > Bible > Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? -
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
| Date: |
26 May 2005 07:33:55 PM |
| Object: |
Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8fjc91t6kb2gi8n02j1u04et4an5v8421f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:11:00 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
===>Don't forget: One divine day is 1000 human years!
thus, 70 divine years would be 70x360x1000 human years!
Don't expect the end of those 70 years for another
2.5 million+ years! -- L.
Ah, it's more like the use of the word "weeks" in the Bible.
No, it isn't "weeks". It's seventy "sevens".
Well, you and libertarius both need to invest in some Bible software.
Jeremiah always uses the Hebrew word "shaneh," which means "years."
Daniel uses the same word in verse 9:2, then changes to "shabuwa' " in
verse
9:24 at Gabriel's direction.
The point is, Jeremiah never used the term for "sevens" or "weeks, whicih
is "shabuwa' ": He
only used "shaneh" ("years"). Only Daniel used "shabuwa' (i.e. "sevens").
Daniel converts the prophecy to "sevens" at Gabriel's direction, but at the
end of
the first prophetic term, Jeremiah's seventy "shaneh" (years) are still
missing.
I would return to whatever Bible college you attended and ask for your
money back.
Ike
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
26 May 2005 11:18:03 PM |
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"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." wrote:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8fjc91t6kb2gi8n02j1u04et4an5v8421f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:11:00 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
===>Don't forget: One divine day is 1000 human years!
thus, 70 divine years would be 70x360x1000 human years!
Don't expect the end of those 70 years for another
2.5 million+ years! -- L.
Ah, it's more like the use of the word "weeks" in the Bible.
No, it isn't "weeks". It's seventy "sevens".
Well, you and libertarius both need to invest in some Bible software.
Jeremiah always uses the Hebrew word "shaneh," which means "years."
Daniel uses the same word in verse 9:2, then changes to "shabuwa' " in
verse
9:24 at Gabriel's direction.
The point is, Jeremiah never used the term for "sevens" or "weeks, whicih
is "shabuwa' ": He
only used "shaneh" ("years"). Only Daniel used "shabuwa' (i.e. "sevens").
Daniel converts the prophecy to "sevens" at Gabriel's direction, but at the
end of
the first prophetic term, Jeremiah's seventy "shaneh" (years) are still
missing.
I would return to whatever Bible college you attended and ask for your
money back.
Ike
===>Ah! THAT may be your problem. Unlike you,
I did not do my studies at any "bible college"! -- L.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
26 May 2005 09:10:48 PM |
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On Thu, 26 May 2005 19:33:55 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8fjc91t6kb2gi8n02j1u04et4an5v8421f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:11:00 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
===>Don't forget: One divine day is 1000 human years!
thus, 70 divine years would be 70x360x1000 human years!
Don't expect the end of those 70 years for another
2.5 million+ years! -- L.
Ah, it's more like the use of the word "weeks" in the Bible.
No, it isn't "weeks". It's seventy "sevens".
Well, you and libertarius both need to invest in some Bible software.
Fact: You said "weeks".
Fact: You were referring to Daniel's prophecy when you
said that.
Fact: It isn't "weeks", it is "sevens".
Fact: You bought some software and now think you're a
scholar, while treating a pastor like he's never seen a
Bible. That's arrogance and ego.
Fact: My response was dead on and we both know it,
which is why you snipped almost everything I said, as
you usually do.
You need to be honest and admit the truth. It is not
"weeks". It is "sevens".
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
26 May 2005 10:06:35 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:070d911ni2qr4nh397rninkkrguf7fubf3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 19:33:55 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8fjc91t6kb2gi8n02j1u04et4an5v8421f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:11:00 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
===>Don't forget: One divine day is 1000 human years!
thus, 70 divine years would be 70x360x1000 human years!
Don't expect the end of those 70 years for another
2.5 million+ years! -- L.
Ah, it's more like the use of the word "weeks" in the Bible.
No, it isn't "weeks". It's seventy "sevens".
Well, you and libertarius both need to invest in some Bible software.
Fact: You said "weeks".
Fact: You were referring to Daniel's prophecy when you
said that.
Yes I was. But not Jeremiah's prophecy.
Fact: It isn't "weeks", it is "sevens".
With the exception of Gabriel's statement to Daniel, it's years (shaneh),
not weeks (shabuwa').
And there are seven prophecies total that refer to prophetic events in terms
of seventy years, without any mention of "weeks:" one in Psalm 90, two in
Isaiah, one in Ezekiel, two in Zechariah, and Daniel's original reference to
Jeremiah using "shaneh" (years), not "shabuwa' " (weeks).
Fact: You bought some software and now think you're a
scholar, while treating a pastor like he's never seen a
Bible. That's arrogance and ego.
It's called research. That's what intellegent people do before that start
spouting off about "facts."
Fact is, you haven't stated a fact yet: You've passed on misinformation you
got from someone else without checking it first.
Fact: My response was dead on and we both know it,
which is why you snipped almost everything I said, as
you usually do.
You response was dead wrong, and I'm sitting right here looking at a
computer screen that is telling me so.
You need to be honest and admit the truth. It is not
"weeks". It is "sevens".
You go and check the Hebrew texts and then come back and tell me where it's
"years" and were it's "weeks" (i.e. sevens).
Go ahead. I'll wait for your response with bated breath.
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
26 May 2005 11:20:21 PM |
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"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." wrote:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:070d911ni2qr4nh397rninkkrguf7fubf3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 19:33:55 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8fjc91t6kb2gi8n02j1u04et4an5v8421f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:11:00 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
===>Don't forget: One divine day is 1000 human years!
thus, 70 divine years would be 70x360x1000 human years!
Don't expect the end of those 70 years for another
2.5 million+ years! -- L.
Ah, it's more like the use of the word "weeks" in the Bible.
No, it isn't "weeks". It's seventy "sevens".
Well, you and libertarius both need to invest in some Bible software.
Fact: You said "weeks".
Fact: You were referring to Daniel's prophecy when you
said that.
Yes I was. But not Jeremiah's prophecy.
Fact: It isn't "weeks", it is "sevens".
With the exception of Gabriel's statement to Daniel, it's years (shaneh),
not weeks (shabuwa').
And there are seven prophecies total that refer to prophetic events in terms
of seventy years, without any mention of "weeks:" one in Psalm 90, two in
Isaiah, one in Ezekiel, two in Zechariah, and Daniel's original reference to
Jeremiah using "shaneh" (years), not "shabuwa' " (weeks).
Fact: You bought some software and now think you're a
scholar, while treating a pastor like he's never seen a
Bible. That's arrogance and ego.
It's called research. That's what intellegent people do before that start
spouting off about "facts."
Fact is, you haven't stated a fact yet: You've passed on misinformation you
got from someone else without checking it first.
Fact: My response was dead on and we both know it,
which is why you snipped almost everything I said, as
you usually do.
You response was dead wrong, and I'm sitting right here looking at a
computer screen that is telling me so.
You need to be honest and admit the truth. It is not
"weeks". It is "sevens".
You go and check the Hebrew texts and then come back and tell me where it's
"years" and were it's "weeks" (i.e. sevens).
Go ahead. I'll wait for your response with bated breath.
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
===>Any serious "research" ought to have brought you to the
realization that DANIEL is NOT a book of prophecy. -- L.
.
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| User: "Douglas Cox" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 10:00:31 AM |
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On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20:21 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>Any serious "research" ought to have brought you to the
realization that DANIEL is NOT a book of prophecy. -- L.
The above statement is hardly original, as it was the opinion of the
3rd century Neoplatonist Porphyry of Tyre. Dan 12:10 says "none of the
wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." The 70 weeks
of Dan 9:24-27 is certainly a prophecy, and it is still being
fulfilled; Christ still "confirms the covenant" with believers. The
prophecy begins with the degree of Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem and its
temple, that Isaiah wrote about.
Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform
all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to
the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah's prophecy says that Cyrus is the one who says to Jerusalem:
"Thou shalt be built." Clearly this is the command that begins
Daniel's 70 weeks, rather than one of several subsequent ones.
I think the first 7 "weeks" or "sevens" is best interpreted as
referring to leap years; this period is then 7 x 7 = 49 leap years, or
133 years. In the Hebrew calendar there are 7 leap years, which have
an extra month, every 19 years. The second 62 "sevens" is 62 x 7
years, the "sevens" being the sabbatical cycles of 7 years mentioned
in the law of Moses. The end of one of these sabattical cycles
occurred 27-28 AD, when John began his minsistry; it was a year when
people had more time to go out to the wilderness to hear him, as they
would not have to work in their fields that year. This year also began
the three and a half year ministry of Jesus; as Daniel's prophecy
shows, he was "cut off" in the midst of the last week of the 70 weeks.
It is in the final week of the 70 weeks that Christ confirms the
covenant with believers; the last part of the final "week" is a
symbolic half "week" which can be identified with the "time, times,
and half" of Dan 7:25, that is mentioned again in Dan 12:7. It is not
a real three and a half years but a *symbolic* three and a half years,
when Christ confirms his covenant with believers. The 70 weeks have
not ended yet, as Christ continues to confirm his covenant with us!
The scope of the 70 weeks is "to make an end of sins" and "finish the
transgression" and "bring in everlasting righteousness" etc; see Dan
9:24. So the final week of the 70 weeks extends to the present; there
is no indication in the New Testament that they were fulfilled in the
first century. When the Gentiles began to come into the Church as
related in Acts, the event was not connected with Daniel's 70 weeks.
The Apostles would have mentioned it, if this were true. There were
also prophets in the early Church; surely they would have recognized
such an important event as the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, and
written about it, if it were true, but not a word is said. However,
John mentioned the "time, times, and a half" in his prophecy in Rev
12, and relates it to the Church (the heavenly woman). It is the
Bible's label for the remaining time of the Church.
Doug
http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/Daniels_Time.html
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 10:49:20 AM |
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"Douglas Cox" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:igbe91pn3teevo6rcpprvo7p79guq7p3m3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20:21 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>Any serious "research" ought to have brought you to the
realization that DANIEL is NOT a book of prophecy. -- L.
The above statement is hardly original, as it was the opinion of the
3rd century Neoplatonist Porphyry of Tyre. Dan 12:10 says "none of the
wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." The 70 weeks
of Dan 9:24-27 is certainly a prophecy, and it is still being
fulfilled; Christ still "confirms the covenant" with believers. The
prophecy begins with the degree of Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem and its
temple, that Isaiah wrote about.
Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform
all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to
the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah's prophecy says that Cyrus is the one who says to Jerusalem:
"Thou shalt be built." Clearly this is the command that begins
Daniel's 70 weeks, rather than one of several subsequent ones.
I think the first 7 "weeks" or "sevens" is best interpreted as
referring to leap years; this period is then 7 x 7 = 49 leap years, or
133 years. In the Hebrew calendar there are 7 leap years, which have
an extra month, every 19 years. The second 62 "sevens" is 62 x 7
years, the "sevens" being the sabbatical cycles of 7 years mentioned
in the law of Moses. The end of one of these sabattical cycles
occurred 27-28 AD, when John began his minsistry; it was a year when
people had more time to go out to the wilderness to hear him, as they
would not have to work in their fields that year. This year also began
the three and a half year ministry of Jesus; as Daniel's prophecy
shows, he was "cut off" in the midst of the last week of the 70 weeks.
It is in the final week of the 70 weeks that Christ confirms the
covenant with believers; the last part of the final "week" is a
symbolic half "week" which can be identified with the "time, times,
and half" of Dan 7:25, that is mentioned again in Dan 12:7. It is not
a real three and a half years but a *symbolic* three and a half years,
when Christ confirms his covenant with believers. The 70 weeks have
not ended yet, as Christ continues to confirm his covenant with us!
The scope of the 70 weeks is "to make an end of sins" and "finish the
transgression" and "bring in everlasting righteousness" etc; see Dan
9:24. So the final week of the 70 weeks extends to the present; there
is no indication in the New Testament that they were fulfilled in the
first century. When the Gentiles began to come into the Church as
related in Acts, the event was not connected with Daniel's 70 weeks.
The Apostles would have mentioned it, if this were true. There were
also prophets in the early Church; surely they would have recognized
such an important event as the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, and
written about it, if it were true, but not a word is said. However,
John mentioned the "time, times, and a half" in his prophecy in Rev
12, and relates it to the Church (the heavenly woman). It is the
Bible's label for the remaining time of the Church.
Doug
Now, here is where we have the error in the other direction.
This hypothesis has been taught as fact for a long time, but it doesn't work
any more than preterism..
Psalm 90, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah, and Zechariah all speak of
prophecy in terms of 70 years. Only Daniel's prophecy refers to "weeks," and
that only after Gabriel said this.
Hence, sooner or later, the prophecy has to be 70 years, not "weeks," long.
Using very simple math, we discover that 70 years, not 7, is exactly what
Daniel's prophecy is missing.
538 - 490 + 70 = 167, the years Antiochus defiled the temple, but, waiting
one "Sabbath" of years,
580 - 49 + 7 = 538, the year of Cyrus' decree.
538 - 434 + 62 = 166, the beginning of the Maccabean revolt.
166 - 7 + 1 = 160, the year the Jews defeated Nicanor and beat the
Seleucids.
Take off the weeks, put back the years.
And now you have 70 years that are still waiting for a fulfillment,
following Jesus' outline: The Beginning of Sorrows (62 years) , the rise of
antichrist (1 year), THEN the tribulation (7 years divided in the middle
between Satan's attack and God's rebuke).
You guys make this too complicated, and try to fit everything into the last
7 years.
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
.
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| User: "Douglas Cox" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 11:28:07 AM |
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On Fri, 27 May 2005 10:49:20 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote:
"Douglas Cox" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:igbe91pn3teevo6rcpprvo7p79guq7p3m3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20:21 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>Any serious "research" ought to have brought you to the
realization that DANIEL is NOT a book of prophecy. -- L.
The above statement is hardly original, as it was the opinion of the
3rd century Neoplatonist Porphyry of Tyre. Dan 12:10 says "none of the
wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." The 70 weeks
of Dan 9:24-27 is certainly a prophecy, and it is still being
fulfilled; Christ still "confirms the covenant" with believers. The
prophecy begins with the degree of Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem and its
temple, that Isaiah wrote about.
Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform
all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to
the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah's prophecy says that Cyrus is the one who says to Jerusalem:
"Thou shalt be built." Clearly this is the command that begins
Daniel's 70 weeks, rather than one of several subsequent ones.
I think the first 7 "weeks" or "sevens" is best interpreted as
referring to leap years; this period is then 7 x 7 = 49 leap years, or
133 years. In the Hebrew calendar there are 7 leap years, which have
an extra month, every 19 years. The second 62 "sevens" is 62 x 7
years, the "sevens" being the sabbatical cycles of 7 years mentioned
in the law of Moses. The end of one of these sabattical cycles
occurred 27-28 AD, when John began his minsistry; it was a year when
people had more time to go out to the wilderness to hear him, as they
would not have to work in their fields that year. This year also began
the three and a half year ministry of Jesus; as Daniel's prophecy
shows, he was "cut off" in the midst of the last week of the 70 weeks.
It is in the final week of the 70 weeks that Christ confirms the
covenant with believers; the last part of the final "week" is a
symbolic half "week" which can be identified with the "time, times,
and half" of Dan 7:25, that is mentioned again in Dan 12:7. It is not
a real three and a half years but a *symbolic* three and a half years,
when Christ confirms his covenant with believers. The 70 weeks have
not ended yet, as Christ continues to confirm his covenant with us!
The scope of the 70 weeks is "to make an end of sins" and "finish the
transgression" and "bring in everlasting righteousness" etc; see Dan
9:24. So the final week of the 70 weeks extends to the present; there
is no indication in the New Testament that they were fulfilled in the
first century. When the Gentiles began to come into the Church as
related in Acts, the event was not connected with Daniel's 70 weeks.
The Apostles would have mentioned it, if this were true. There were
also prophets in the early Church; surely they would have recognized
such an important event as the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, and
written about it, if it were true, but not a word is said. However,
John mentioned the "time, times, and a half" in his prophecy in Rev
12, and relates it to the Church (the heavenly woman). It is the
Bible's label for the remaining time of the Church.
Doug
Now, here is where we have the error in the other direction.
This hypothesis has been taught as fact for a long time, but it doesn't work
any more than preterism..
Psalm 90, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah, and Zechariah all speak of
prophecy in terms of 70 years. Only Daniel's prophecy refers to "weeks," and
that only after Gabriel said this.
Hence, sooner or later, the prophecy has to be 70 years, not "weeks," long.
Using very simple math, we discover that 70 years, not 7, is exactly what
Daniel's prophecy is missing.
538 - 490 + 70 = 167, the years Antiochus defiled temple, but, waiting
one "Sabbath" of years,
I get: 538 - 490 = 48
48 + 70 = 118, not 167.
So you lost me here.
580 - 49 + 7 = 538, the year of Cyrus' decree.
538 - 434 + 62 = 166, the beginning of the Maccabean revolt.
166 - 7 + 1 = 160, the year the Jews defeated Nicanor and beat the
Seleucids.
Take off the weeks, put back the years.
"Sevens" is what Daniel's prophecy says, not years.
And now you have 70 years that are still waiting for a fulfillment,
following Jesus' outline: The Beginning of Sorrows (62 years) , the rise of
antichrist (1 year), THEN the tribulation (7 years divided in the middle
between Satan's attack and God's rebuke).
You guys make this too complicated, and try to fit everything into the last
7 years.
That is far more complicated than my interpretation;
7 x 7 = 49 leap years = 133 years
7 x 62 = 434 years
133 + 434 = 567 years, the time from the decree of Cyrus in 538 BC to
28 AD when Christ began his ministry.
Remaining "week" is the three and a half year ministry of Jesus plus
the symbolic "time, times and a half" which is the remaining time of
the Church, when the gospel goes to the world and Christ confirm the
covenant.
Your explanation above seems to require a "gap" somewhere, but there
are no gaps in the 70 weeks. Time has no gaps.
The theory of dispensationalism encounters a similar objection.
Doug
http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/Daniels_Time.html
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 12:16:40 PM |
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"Douglas Cox" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:orhe91p0k1soqgf1uhsotmbp04r8sqn73g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 27 May 2005 10:49:20 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote:
"Douglas Cox" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:igbe91pn3teevo6rcpprvo7p79guq7p3m3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20:21 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>Any serious "research" ought to have brought you to the
realization that DANIEL is NOT a book of prophecy. -- L.
The above statement is hardly original, as it was the opinion of the
3rd century Neoplatonist Porphyry of Tyre. Dan 12:10 says "none of the
wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." The 70 weeks
of Dan 9:24-27 is certainly a prophecy, and it is still being
fulfilled; Christ still "confirms the covenant" with believers. The
prophecy begins with the degree of Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem and its
temple, that Isaiah wrote about.
Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform
all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to
the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah's prophecy says that Cyrus is the one who says to Jerusalem:
"Thou shalt be built." Clearly this is the command that begins
Daniel's 70 weeks, rather than one of several subsequent ones.
I think the first 7 "weeks" or "sevens" is best interpreted as
referring to leap years; this period is then 7 x 7 = 49 leap years, or
133 years. In the Hebrew calendar there are 7 leap years, which have
an extra month, every 19 years. The second 62 "sevens" is 62 x 7
years, the "sevens" being the sabbatical cycles of 7 years mentioned
in the law of Moses. The end of one of these sabattical cycles
occurred 27-28 AD, when John began his minsistry; it was a year when
people had more time to go out to the wilderness to hear him, as they
would not have to work in their fields that year. This year also began
the three and a half year ministry of Jesus; as Daniel's prophecy
shows, he was "cut off" in the midst of the last week of the 70 weeks.
It is in the final week of the 70 weeks that Christ confirms the
covenant with believers; the last part of the final "week" is a
symbolic half "week" which can be identified with the "time, times,
and half" of Dan 7:25, that is mentioned again in Dan 12:7. It is not
a real three and a half years but a *symbolic* three and a half years,
when Christ confirms his covenant with believers. The 70 weeks have
not ended yet, as Christ continues to confirm his covenant with us!
The scope of the 70 weeks is "to make an end of sins" and "finish the
transgression" and "bring in everlasting righteousness" etc; see Dan
9:24. So the final week of the 70 weeks extends to the present; there
is no indication in the New Testament that they were fulfilled in the
first century. When the Gentiles began to come into the Church as
related in Acts, the event was not connected with Daniel's 70 weeks.
The Apostles would have mentioned it, if this were true. There were
also prophets in the early Church; surely they would have recognized
such an important event as the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, and
written about it, if it were true, but not a word is said. However,
John mentioned the "time, times, and a half" in his prophecy in Rev
12, and relates it to the Church (the heavenly woman). It is the
Bible's label for the remaining time of the Church.
Doug
Now, here is where we have the error in the other direction.
This hypothesis has been taught as fact for a long time, but it doesn't
work
any more than preterism..
Psalm 90, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah, and Zechariah all speak of
prophecy in terms of 70 years. Only Daniel's prophecy refers to "weeks,"
and
that only after Gabriel said this.
Hence, sooner or later, the prophecy has to be 70 years, not "weeks,"
long.
Using very simple math, we discover that 70 years, not 7, is exactly what
Daniel's prophecy is missing.
538 - 490 + 70 = 167, the years Antiochus defiled temple, but, waiting
one "Sabbath" of years,
I get: 538 - 490 = 48
48 + 70 = 118, not 167.
So you lost me here.
Okay, what did I do here?
I'm sorry. I started from Cyrus' decree, not the destruction of the temple.
It's 587 - 490 + 70 = 167.
(See what happens when you start to get senile? See what happens when you
start to get senile? Wait, I just said that.)
580 - 49 + 7 = 538, the year of Cyrus' decree.
538 - 434 + 62 = 166, the beginning of the Maccabean revolt.
587-490+70
587-490 +706 - 7 + 1 = 160, the year the Jews defeated Nicanor and beat
the
Seleucids.
Take off the weeks, put back the years.
"Sevens" is what Daniel's prophecy says, not years.
And now you have 70 years that are still waiting for a fulfillment,
following Jesus' outline: The Beginning of Sorrows (62 years) , the rise
of
antichrist (1 year), THEN the tribulation (7 years divided in the middle
between Satan's attack and God's rebuke).
You guys make this too complicated, and try to fit everything into the
last
7 years.
That is far more complicated than my interpretation;
7 x 7 = 49 leap years = 133 years
7 x 62 = 434 years
133 + 434 = 567 years, the time from the decree of Cyrus in 538 BC to
28 AD when Christ began his ministry.
But what do leap years have to do with anything. Years are years.
Now, the Jewish calander is complicated, but sooner or later it comes back
to 365 1/4 day years.
Remaining "week" is the three and a half year ministry of Jesus plus
the symbolic "time, times and a half" which is the remaining time of
the Church, when the gospel goes to the world and Christ confirm the
covenant.
Your explanation above seems to require a "gap" somewhere, but there
are no gaps in the 70 weeks. Time has no gaps.
The theory of dispensationalism encounters a similar objection.
Doug
Ah, but there are no gaps. There are three distinct prophetic periods: The
events surrounding the second temple, the events surrounding the third
temple (Herod's), and the events surrounding the temple yet to come.
(Actually, there are seven temples starting with the tabernacle in the
wilderness, but let's stick to the brick & mortar temples for the time
being.)
Ike
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 02:47:25 PM |
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"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." wrote:
"Douglas Cox" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:orhe91p0k1soqgf1uhsotmbp04r8sqn73g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 27 May 2005 10:49:20 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote:
"Douglas Cox" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:igbe91pn3teevo6rcpprvo7p79guq7p3m3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20:21 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>Any serious "research" ought to have brought you to the
realization that DANIEL is NOT a book of prophecy. -- L.
The above statement is hardly original, as it was the opinion of the
3rd century Neoplatonist Porphyry of Tyre. Dan 12:10 says "none of the
wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." The 70 weeks
of Dan 9:24-27 is certainly a prophecy, and it is still being
fulfilled; Christ still "confirms the covenant" with believers. The
prophecy begins with the degree of Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem and its
temple, that Isaiah wrote about.
Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform
all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to
the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah's prophecy says that Cyrus is the one who says to Jerusalem:
"Thou shalt be built." Clearly this is the command that begins
Daniel's 70 weeks, rather than one of several subsequent ones.
I think the first 7 "weeks" or "sevens" is best interpreted as
referring to leap years; this period is then 7 x 7 = 49 leap years, or
133 years. In the Hebrew calendar there are 7 leap years, which have
an extra month, every 19 years. The second 62 "sevens" is 62 x 7
years, the "sevens" being the sabbatical cycles of 7 years mentioned
in the law of Moses. The end of one of these sabattical cycles
occurred 27-28 AD, when John began his minsistry; it was a year when
people had more time to go out to the wilderness to hear him, as they
would not have to work in their fields that year. This year also began
the three and a half year ministry of Jesus; as Daniel's prophecy
shows, he was "cut off" in the midst of the last week of the 70 weeks.
It is in the final week of the 70 weeks that Christ confirms the
covenant with believers; the last part of the final "week" is a
symbolic half "week" which can be identified with the "time, times,
and half" of Dan 7:25, that is mentioned again in Dan 12:7. It is not
a real three and a half years but a *symbolic* three and a half years,
when Christ confirms his covenant with believers. The 70 weeks have
not ended yet, as Christ continues to confirm his covenant with us!
The scope of the 70 weeks is "to make an end of sins" and "finish the
transgression" and "bring in everlasting righteousness" etc; see Dan
9:24. So the final week of the 70 weeks extends to the present; there
is no indication in the New Testament that they were fulfilled in the
first century. When the Gentiles began to come into the Church as
related in Acts, the event was not connected with Daniel's 70 weeks.
The Apostles would have mentioned it, if this were true. There were
also prophets in the early Church; surely they would have recognized
such an important event as the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, and
written about it, if it were true, but not a word is said. However,
John mentioned the "time, times, and a half" in his prophecy in Rev
12, and relates it to the Church (the heavenly woman). It is the
Bible's label for the remaining time of the Church.
Doug
Now, here is where we have the error in the other direction.
This hypothesis has been taught as fact for a long time, but it doesn't
work
any more than preterism..
Psalm 90, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah, and Zechariah all speak of
prophecy in terms of 70 years. Only Daniel's prophecy refers to "weeks,"
and
that only after Gabriel said this.
Hence, sooner or later, the prophecy has to be 70 years, not "weeks,"
long.
Using very simple math, we discover that 70 years, not 7, is exactly what
Daniel's prophecy is missing.
538 - 490 + 70 = 167, the years Antiochus defiled temple, but, waiting
one "Sabbath" of years,
I get: 538 - 490 = 48
48 + 70 = 118, not 167.
So you lost me here.
Okay, what did I do here?
I'm sorry. I started from Cyrus' decree, not the destruction of the temple.
It's 587 - 490 + 70 = 167.
===>Now THAT makes some sense, since the book was written
about THAT TIME. -- L.
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| User: "Douglas Cox" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 01:20:32 PM |
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On Fri, 27 May 2005 12:16:40 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote:
"Douglas Cox" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:orhe91p0k1soqgf1uhsotmbp04r8sqn73g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 27 May 2005 10:49:20 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote:
"Douglas Cox" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:igbe91pn3teevo6rcpprvo7p79guq7p3m3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20:21 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>Any serious "research" ought to have brought you to the
realization that DANIEL is NOT a book of prophecy. -- L.
The above statement is hardly original, as it was the opinion of the
3rd century Neoplatonist Porphyry of Tyre. Dan 12:10 says "none of the
wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." The 70 weeks
of Dan 9:24-27 is certainly a prophecy, and it is still being
fulfilled; Christ still "confirms the covenant" with believers. The
prophecy begins with the degree of Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem and its
temple, that Isaiah wrote about.
Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform
all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to
the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah's prophecy says that Cyrus is the one who says to Jerusalem:
"Thou shalt be built." Clearly this is the command that begins
Daniel's 70 weeks, rather than one of several subsequent ones.
I think the first 7 "weeks" or "sevens" is best interpreted as
referring to leap years; this period is then 7 x 7 = 49 leap years, or
133 years. In the Hebrew calendar there are 7 leap years, which have
an extra month, every 19 years. The second 62 "sevens" is 62 x 7
years, the "sevens" being the sabbatical cycles of 7 years mentioned
in the law of Moses. The end of one of these sabattical cycles
occurred 27-28 AD, when John began his minsistry; it was a year when
people had more time to go out to the wilderness to hear him, as they
would not have to work in their fields that year. This year also began
the three and a half year ministry of Jesus; as Daniel's prophecy
shows, he was "cut off" in the midst of the last week of the 70 weeks.
It is in the final week of the 70 weeks that Christ confirms the
covenant with believers; the last part of the final "week" is a
symbolic half "week" which can be identified with the "time, times,
and half" of Dan 7:25, that is mentioned again in Dan 12:7. It is not
a real three and a half years but a *symbolic* three and a half years,
when Christ confirms his covenant with believers. The 70 weeks have
not ended yet, as Christ continues to confirm his covenant with us!
The scope of the 70 weeks is "to make an end of sins" and "finish the
transgression" and "bring in everlasting righteousness" etc; see Dan
9:24. So the final week of the 70 weeks extends to the present; there
is no indication in the New Testament that they were fulfilled in the
first century. When the Gentiles began to come into the Church as
related in Acts, the event was not connected with Daniel's 70 weeks.
The Apostles would have mentioned it, if this were true. There were
also prophets in the early Church; surely they would have recognized
such an important event as the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, and
written about it, if it were true, but not a word is said. However,
John mentioned the "time, times, and a half" in his prophecy in Rev
12, and relates it to the Church (the heavenly woman). It is the
Bible's label for the remaining time of the Church.
Doug
Now, here is where we have the error in the other direction.
This hypothesis has been taught as fact for a long time, but it doesn't
work
any more than preterism..
Psalm 90, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah, and Zechariah all speak of
prophecy in terms of 70 years. Only Daniel's prophecy refers to "weeks,"
and
that only after Gabriel said this.
Hence, sooner or later, the prophecy has to be 70 years, not "weeks,"
long.
Using very simple math, we discover that 70 years, not 7, is exactly what
Daniel's prophecy is missing.
538 - 490 + 70 = 167, the years Antiochus defiled temple, but, waiting
one "Sabbath" of years,
I get: 538 - 490 = 48
48 + 70 = 118, not 167.
So you lost me here.
Okay, what did I do here?
I'm sorry. I started from Cyrus' decree, not the destruction of the temple.
It's 587 - 490 + 70 = 167.
The destruction of the temple is not the start point of Daniel's
prophecy. It is the "commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"
that is the start point.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of
the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(See what happens when you start to get senile? See what happens when you
start to get senile? Wait, I just said that.)
580 - 49 + 7 = 538, the year of Cyrus' decree.
538 - 434 + 62 = 166, the beginning of the Maccabean revolt.
587-490+70
587-490 +706 - 7 + 1 = 160, the year the Jews defeated Nicanor and beat
the
Seleucids.
Take off the weeks, put back the years.
"Sevens" is what Daniel's prophecy says, not years.
And now you have 70 years that are still waiting for a fulfillment,
following Jesus' outline: The Beginning of Sorrows (62 years) , the rise
of
antichrist (1 year), THEN the tribulation (7 years divided in the middle
between Satan's attack and God's rebuke).
You guys make this too complicated, and try to fit everything into the
last
7 years.
That is far more complicated than my interpretation;
7 x 7 = 49 leap years = 133 years
7 x 62 = 434 years
133 + 434 = 567 years, the time from the decree of Cyrus in 538 BC to
28 AD when Christ began his ministry.
But what do leap years have to do with anything. Years are years.
The prophecy does not mention units; it does not say "years", or any
other unit. It says "sevens", but the obvious question is, sevens of
what? We need to make some assumptions about the units.
Also, there are separate sections mentioned; are the units the same in
each section? If the same, why are there separate sections? Why say 7
weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week, if all 3 sections have the same units,
namely "years". I say the reason there are separate sections is that
the units vary; in the first 7 "weeks" the units are leap years. There
are 49 leap years in a 133 year period.
To understand why leap years are involved, we need to analyse the
1,290 days and the 1,335 days, mentioned in Dan 12:11 & 12. These can
be explained in terms of years of 12 months, and years of 13 months,
and both numbers equate to "a time, times, and half a time":
13 x 30 = 390
2 x 12 x 30 = 720
½ x 12 x 30 = 180
Total: 1,290 days
12 x 30 = 360
2 x 13 x 30 = 780
½ x 13 x 30 = 195
Total: 1,335 days
Now, the Jewish calander is complicated, but sooner or later it comes back
to 365 1/4 day years.
Remaining "week" is the three and a half year ministry of Jesus plus
the symbolic "time, times and a half" which is the remaining time of
the Church, when the gospel goes to the world and Christ confirm the
covenant.
Your explanation above seems to require a "gap" somewhere, but there
are no gaps in the 70 weeks. Time has no gaps.
The theory of dispensationalism encounters a similar objection.
Doug
Ah, but there are no gaps. There are three distinct prophetic periods: The
events surrounding the second temple, the events surrounding the third
temple (Herod's), and the events surrounding the temple yet to come.
(Actually, there are seven temples starting with the tabernacle in the
wilderness, but let's stick to the brick & mortar temples for the time
being.)
But, God is no longer interested in erecting temples of stone, now
that Christ is building the living temple, which is the Church. Why
would *any* prophecy of the Bible relate to a future building of
stone? The earthly temple was merely a type of the true temple of God,
which was Christ, when he was here on earth, and is now the Church,
having Christ himself as the "head of the corner". It would be very
silly if prophecy reverted to figures and types, now that the real,
*living* temple of God exists.
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual
house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,
acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Doug
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 05:59:45 PM |
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"Douglas Cox" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:bsme91pm0n3up62s5r5dj53bpug84576s7@4ax.com...
[snip]
The destruction of the temple is not the start point of Daniel's
prophecy. It is the "commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"
that is the start point.
Daniel's prophecy is based on Jeremiah's prophecy.
Jeremiah's first prophey of seventy years [ch. 25] starts with
Nebudchadnezzar (called by name) coming against Jerusalem and desolating it.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of
the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the
Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street
shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Whose decree?
Ezra says that Cyrus, Darius, Artaxerxes, and God issued decrees.
Moreover, Jeremiah starts the counting from the desolation of Israel.
Don't assume that Cyrus' decree is primary.
[snip]
But what do leap years have to do with anything. Years are years.
The prophecy does not mention units; it does not say "years", or any
other unit. It says "sevens", but the obvious question is, sevens of
what? We need to make some assumptions about the units.
Ah, now Daniel's prophecy uses "sevens" after Gabriel speaks with him, but
before that, Daniel refers to Jeremiah and Jeremiah says "years." Moreover,
there is a stack of other prophecies that say "years."
Now, the use of the term "weeks" makes the prophecy convertable. Is it a
"week of weeks" (a year) or a "week of years" (7 years). In the first
intance, it was a week of years, but, in the end, it will be years, in
accordance with seven prophecies.
[snip]
But, God is no longer interested in erecting temples of stone, now
that Christ is building the living temple, which is the Church. Why
would *any* prophecy of the Bible relate to a future building of
stone? The earthly temple was merely a type of the true temple of God,
which was Christ, when he was here on earth, and is now the Church,
having Christ himself as the "head of the corner". It would be very
silly if prophecy reverted to figures and types, now that the real,
*living* temple of God exists.
You know that, and I know that, but the Jews don't.
The glory of God never returned to the post-exile temple nor Herod's temple
(unless one wants to count the visitations of Jesus.) So, you're absolutely
right: The temple God refers to is not the temple made with hands, but the
body of believers.
But tell that to the Jews. They will build again, but, this time, it will be
a religious free-for-all, all of the religions of the world worhipping there
as Ezekiel saw.
One other thing: Once you understand the triune hypothesis, everything
starts to line up. Daniel's outline and his narrative, Jesus' Olivet
Discourse, and Revelation all start to lay out the same story, but from
different perspectives.
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
28 May 2005 10:20:27 AM |
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"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." wrote:
"Douglas Cox" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:bsme91pm0n3up62s5r5dj53bpug84576s7@4ax.com...
[snip]
The destruction of the temple is not the start point of Daniel's
prophecy. It is the "commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"
that is the start point.
Daniel's prophecy is based on Jeremiah's prophecy.
Jeremiah's first prophey of seventy years [ch. 25] starts with
Nebudchadnezzar (called by name) coming against Jerusalem and desolating it.
===>The author of "DANIEL", a fictional book of pseudo-prophecy,
was simply IMITATING some of the real prophets. -- L.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 02:30:33 PM |
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Douglas Cox wrote:
On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20:21 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
===>Any serious "research" ought to have brought you to the
realization that DANIEL is NOT a book of prophecy. -- L.
The above statement is hardly original, as it was the opinion of the
3rd century Neoplatonist Porphyry of Tyre.
===>Of course.
ANY rationally thinking reader can see that.
Dan 12:10 says "none of the
wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."
===>That's right.
The author wrote his book for the JEWISH REBELS,
who fought against Antiochus Epiphanes.
The 70 weeks
of Dan 9:24-27 is certainly a prophecy, and it is still being
fulfilled; Christ still "confirms the covenant" with believers.
===>You can call anything a "prophecy", if you wish.
But the HEBREW TANAKH agrees it is NOT one of the
prophetic books, just LITERATURE (KETHUVIM -"Writings").
The
prophecy begins with the degree of Cyrus to rebuild Jerusalem and its
temple, that Isaiah wrote about.
===>It is a somewhat inaccurate retrospective HISTORY, not
prophecy. The mythical "Daniel" certainly did not write it.
It was produced at the time of the revolt of the Maccabees to
encourage the revolutionaries.
Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform
all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to
the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah's prophecy says that Cyrus is the one who says to Jerusalem:
"Thou shalt be built." Clearly this is the command that begins
Daniel's 70 weeks, rather than one of several subsequent ones.
===>That much is correct. The starting point of this "pseudo-prophecy"
is the decree of king Cyrus, the only liberator messiah so designated in the
Bible.
But the numerological speculations you and many before you have engaged
in are just that: useless exercise in futility. -- L.
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 06:01:08 PM |
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Don't mind Libertarius Doug. A butterfly kicked him in the head a long time
ago and he hasn't been right since.
Ike
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
28 May 2005 10:21:27 AM |
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"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." wrote:
Don't mind Libertarius Doug. A butterfly kicked him in the head a long time
ago and he hasn't been right since.
Ike
===>A very funny way of dealing with your avoidance of the truth! -- L.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 07:17:57 AM |
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On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:06:35 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:070d911ni2qr4nh397rninkkrguf7fubf3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 19:33:55 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8fjc91t6kb2gi8n02j1u04et4an5v8421f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:11:00 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
===>Don't forget: One divine day is 1000 human years!
thus, 70 divine years would be 70x360x1000 human years!
Don't expect the end of those 70 years for another
2.5 million+ years! -- L.
Ah, it's more like the use of the word "weeks" in the Bible.
No, it isn't "weeks". It's seventy "sevens".
Well, you and libertarius both need to invest in some Bible software.
Fact: You said "weeks".
Fact: You were referring to Daniel's prophecy when you
said that.
Yes I was. But not Jeremiah's prophecy.
Fact: It isn't "weeks", it is "sevens".
With the exception of Gabriel's statement to Daniel, it's years (shaneh),
not weeks (shabuwa').
And there are seven prophecies total that refer to prophetic events in terms
of seventy years, without any mention of "weeks:" one in Psalm 90, two in
Isaiah, one in Ezekiel, two in Zechariah, and Daniel's original reference to
Jeremiah using "shaneh" (years), not "shabuwa' " (weeks).
Fact: You bought some software and now think you're a
scholar, while treating a pastor like he's never seen a
Bible. That's arrogance and ego.
It's called research. That's what intellegent people do before that start
spouting off about "facts."
Fact is, you haven't stated a fact yet: You've passed on misinformation you
got from someone else without checking it first.
Fact: My response was dead on and we both know it,
which is why you snipped almost everything I said, as
you usually do.
You response was dead wrong, and I'm sitting right here looking at a
computer screen that is telling me so.
You need to be honest and admit the truth. It is not
"weeks". It is "sevens".
You go and check the Hebrew texts and then come back and tell me where it's
"years" and were it's "weeks" (i.e. sevens).
Go ahead. I'll wait for your response with bated breath.
All this rambling and insulting and you referred to
Daniel, as I said and Daniel said "sevens", just as
I said.
www.eickleberrybooks.com
Ah, no wonder.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 09:37:37 AM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:hs3e91hkf2r2pnijccgk80108rr1sf50s6@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:06:35 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:070d911ni2qr4nh397rninkkrguf7fubf3@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 19:33:55 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
message
news:8fjc91t6kb2gi8n02j1u04et4an5v8421f@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:11:00 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
===>Don't forget: One divine day is 1000 human years!
thus, 70 divine years would be 70x360x1000 human years!
Don't expect the end of those 70 years for another
2.5 million+ years! -- L.
Ah, it's more like the use of the word "weeks" in the Bible.
No, it isn't "weeks". It's seventy "sevens".
Well, you and libertarius both need to invest in some Bible software.
Fact: You said "weeks".
Fact: You were referring to Daniel's prophecy when you
said that.
Yes I was. But not Jeremiah's prophecy.
Fact: It isn't "weeks", it is "sevens".
With the exception of Gabriel's statement to Daniel, it's years (shaneh),
not weeks (shabuwa').
And there are seven prophecies total that refer to prophetic events in
terms
of seventy years, without any mention of "weeks:" one in Psalm 90, two in
Isaiah, one in Ezekiel, two in Zechariah, and Daniel's original reference
to
Jeremiah using "shaneh" (years), not "shabuwa' " (weeks).
Fact: You bought some software and now think you're a
scholar, while treating a pastor like he's never seen a
Bible. That's arrogance and ego.
It's called research. That's what intellegent people do before that start
spouting off about "facts."
Fact is, you haven't stated a fact yet: You've passed on misinformation
you
got from someone else without checking it first.
Fact: My response was dead on and we both know it,
which is why you snipped almost everything I said, as
you usually do.
You response was dead wrong, and I'm sitting right here looking at a
computer screen that is telling me so.
You need to be honest and admit the truth. It is not
"weeks". It is "sevens".
You go and check the Hebrew texts and then come back and tell me where
it's
"years" and were it's "weeks" (i.e. sevens).
Go ahead. I'll wait for your response with bated breath.
All this rambling and insulting and you referred to
Daniel, as I said and Daniel said "sevens", just as
I said.
Daniel said "years," then Gabriel told him "sevens."
There is only one reference to seventy "sevens."
Which bring us back to Jeremiah, who said in one prophecy that the Jews
would go into Babylon at the beginning of seventy years, and in another
prophecy that the Jews would come out of Babylon at the end of seventy
years.
In the flesh, the parameters of both prophecies were met.
Moreover, Jesus went up to the feast of the dedication (Hannukah).
So, were back to square one: If you're hypothesis cannot account for the
events that happened during the second temple period from the time
Nebudchadnezzar destroyed the temple to the victory of the Jews over
Nicanor, AND deal with the events surrounding the first advent of Jesus
Christ, AND account for the future, it's wrong.
This brings us right back to the question, when did the Jews come up out of
Babylon and rebuild the temple?
That event encapsulates the second temple period.
That means that, to take the prophecies beyond the first temple period, one
has to have a hypothesis, and the hypothesis has to be rooted in facts, and
all facts have to fit into the hypothesis.
On this one subject of "years" vs. "weeks," you've demonstrated that you are
not checking your facts, or making sure your "facts" fit into all the
possible scenarios arriving from those facts.
This is the error of preterism: You jump up and down proclaiming that there
is no future fulfillment of prophecy, but, to make your claim, you have to
ignore the fact that there was a fulfillment of prophecy prior to the events
of the third temple period (i.e. Herod's temple).
What was was.
What is is.
What will be will be.
All in fulfillment of the teacher's statement in Ecclesiastes: "That which
hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God
requireth that which is past."
John even capitalizes on this concept in Revelation:
Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and
peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come...
This is a "is, was, and will be" statement.
Re 1:5 ...And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first
begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.
This is an "is, will be, and was" statement.
Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
This is a "is, was, and will be" statement.
Re 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These
things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the
creation of God;
This is a "will be, is, and was" statement.
Re 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they
were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy,
holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
This is a "was, is, and will be" statement.
What's the point? According to the trinue hypothesis, Revelation applies to
the people of John's time (the historical perspective); Revelation applies
to people of all times, for it is full of wisdom and understanding (the
idealist perspective); and Revelation applies to the future (the futurist
perspective).
However, it is not in parts: It completely applies to the past, it
completely applies to the present, and it completly applies to the future.
(Not, "this happened back then and this will apply to the future," as many
teach.)
Like I said, the prophets are about to jump on your head. It wouldn't matter
if you were wrong. Lots of people have been wrong. What matters is this
incessant, vindictive, and intellectually dishonest way you have been
treating people who are groping to understand the Bible when you don't
understand it yourself. (Shoot, I have to fine tune my understanding of it
on a daily basis as more and more facts come to light.)
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 03:01:48 PM |
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On Fri, 27 May 2005 09:37:37 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
All this rambling and insulting and you referred to
Daniel, as I said and Daniel said "sevens", just as
I said.
Daniel said "years," then Gabriel told him "sevens."
There is only one reference to seventy "sevens."
Which bring us back to Jeremiah, who said in one prophecy that the Jews
would go into Babylon at the beginning of seventy years, and in another
prophecy that the Jews would come out of Babylon at the end of seventy
years.
In the flesh, the parameters of both prophecies were met.
Moreover, Jesus went up to the feast of the dedication (Hannukah).
So, were back to square one: If you're hypothesis cannot account for the
events that happened during the second temple period from the time
Nebudchadnezzar destroyed the temple to the victory of the Jews over
Nicanor, AND deal with the events surrounding the first advent of Jesus
Christ, AND account for the future, it's wrong.
This brings us right back to the question, when did the Jews come up out of
Babylon and rebuild the temple?
That event encapsulates the second temple period.
That means that, to take the prophecies beyond the first temple period, one
has to have a hypothesis, and the hypothesis has to be rooted in facts, and
all facts have to fit into the hypothesis.
On this one subject of "years" vs. "weeks," you've demonstrated that you are
not checking your facts, or making sure your "facts" fit into all the
possible scenarios arriving from those facts.
This is the error of preterism: You jump up and down proclaiming that there
is no future fulfillment of prophecy, but, to make your claim, you have to
ignore the fact that there was a fulfillment of prophecy prior to the events
of the third temple period (i.e. Herod's temple).
What was was.
What is is.
What will be will be.
All in fulfillment of the teacher's statement in Ecclesiastes: "That which
hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God
requireth that which is past."
John even capitalizes on this concept in Revelation:
Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and
peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come...
This is a "is, was, and will be" statement.
Re 1:5 ...And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first
begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.
This is an "is, will be, and was" statement.
Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
This is a "is, was, and will be" statement.
Re 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These
things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the
creation of God;
This is a "will be, is, and was" statement.
Re 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they
were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy,
holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
This is a "was, is, and will be" statement.
What's the point? According to the trinue hypothesis, Revelation applies to
the people of John's time (the historical perspective); Revelation applies
to people of all times, for it is full of wisdom and understanding (the
idealist perspective); and Revelation applies to the future (the futurist
perspective).
However, it is not in parts: It completely applies to the past, it
completely applies to the present, and it completly applies to the future.
(Not, "this happened back then and this will apply to the future," as many
teach.)
Like I said, the prophets are about to jump on your head. It wouldn't matter
if you were wrong. Lots of people have been wrong. What matters is this
incessant, vindictive, and intellectually dishonest way you have been
treating people who are groping to understand the Bible when you don't
understand it yourself. (Shoot, I have to fine tune my understanding of it
on a daily basis as more and more facts come to light.)
You're a sick individual and you're not happy unless
your twisting the Bible like a pretzel. And it doesn't
surprise me that you left 1:7 out, because it tells you
that those who pierced Him would see Him return.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: HAVE THE PROPHECIES FAILED? CAN WE TEST THEM? - |
27 May 2005 06:13:19 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:91ve919kusae4sup1bgq316jjd9mvncebb@4ax.com...
On Fri, 27 May 2005 09:37:37 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:
All this rambling and insulting and you referred to
Daniel, as I said and Daniel said "sevens", just as
I said.
Daniel said "years," then Gabriel told him "sevens."
There is only one reference to seventy "sevens."
Which bring us back to Jeremiah, who said in one prophecy that the Jews
would go into Babylon at the beginning of seventy years, and in another
prophecy that the Jews would come out of Babylon at the end of seventy
years.
In the flesh, the parameters of both prophecies were met.
Moreover, Jesus went up to the feast of the dedication (Hannukah).
So, were back to square one: If you're hypothesis cannot account for the
events that happened during the second temple period from the time
Nebudchadnezzar destroyed the temple to the victory of the Jews over
Nicanor, AND deal with the events surrounding the first advent of Jesus
Christ, AND account for the future, it's wrong.
This brings us right back to the question, when did the Jews come up out
of
Babylon and rebuild the temple?
That event encapsulates the second temple period.
That means that, to take the prophecies beyond the first temple period,
one
has to have a hypothesis, and the hypothesis has to be rooted in facts,
and
all facts have to fit into the hypothesis.
On this one subject of "years" vs. "weeks," you've demonstrated that you
are
not checking your facts, or making sure your "facts" fit into all the
possible scenarios arriving from those facts.
This is the error of preterism: You jump up and down proclaiming that
there
is no future fulfillment of prophecy, but, to make your claim, you have to
ignore the fact that there was a fulfillment of prophecy prior to the
events
of the third temple period (i.e. Herod's temple).
What was was.
What is is.
What will be will be.
All in fulfillment of the teacher's statement in Ecclesiastes: "That which
hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God
requireth that which is past."
John even capitalizes on this concept in Revelation:
Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you,
and
peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come...
This is a "is, was, and will be" statement.
Re 1:5 ...And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the
first
begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.
This is an "is, will be, and was" statement.
Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the
Lord,
which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
This is a "is, was, and will be" statement.
Re 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These
things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the
creation of God;
This is a "will be, is, and was" statement.
Re 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they
were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy,
holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
This is a "was, is, and will be" statement.
What's the point? According to the trinue hypothesis, Revelation applies
to
the people of John's time (the historical perspective); Revelation applies
to people of all times, for it is full of wisdom and understanding (the
idealist perspective); and Revelation applies to the future (the futurist
perspective).
However, it is not in parts: It completely applies to the past, it
completely applies to the present, and it completly applies to the future.
(Not, "this happened back then and this will apply to the future," as many
teach.)
Like I said, the prophets are about to jump on your head. It wouldn't
matter
if you were wrong. Lots of people have been wrong. What matters is this
incessant, vindictive, and intellectually dishonest way you have been
treating people who are groping to understand the Bible when you don't
understand it yourself. (Shoot, I have to fine tune my understanding of it
on a daily basis as more and more facts come to light.)
You're a sick individual and you're not happy unless
your twisting the Bible like a pretzel. And it doesn't
surprise me that you left 1:7 out, because it tells you
that those who pierced Him would see Him return.
Oh, now that was a scholarly rebuttal.
First of all, it's not twisting. It's untwisting. Once you untangle the
mess, all of the prophetic narratives--Daniel's, Jesus', and John's--start
to line up side by side, but from different perspectives.
The mistake the futurists made was cramming a 70-year prophecy into 7 years.
The mistake the preterists made was ignoring history.
The mistake the idealists made was ignoring the literalism of prophecy.
The mistake the Jews made was ignoring the fact that Judas Macabee didn't
save them from their sins and usher in another David kingdom--they tried,
but it didn't work.
Until you factor in history, the two advents of Jesus Christ, and the
complete parameters of all the prophecies, you can't get it right.
Ike
P.S. Those who pierced Him will be here. Who told you the resurrection of
the dead only applies to the believers?
www.eickleberrybooks.com
.
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