Re: History question, Could the Jews under Roman Occupation execute the death penalty



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "James"
Date: 22 Dec 2006 10:20:29 AM
Object: Re: History question, Could the Jews under Roman Occupation execute the death penalty

"Thandarr" <thandarr@yahoo.com>
Re: History question, Could the Jews under Roman Occupation execute the death penalty
I tried to find out from an Internet search and couldn't figure out how
to get the answer. In John the people are preparing to execute an
adultress when Jesus stops them. John 8:11.

Thandarr,
First of all, those verses at John 8:11 and around it, are of
questionable origin. Thus they may not have been included in the
original writings of the book of John.
For example, the Bible "The Revised Standard Version Bible" in the
marginal notes, refers to John 7:53-8:11 and says,
"some mark the passage as doubtful".
Also the Bible "Today's English Version" in its marginal notes, says
concerning John 8:1-11,
"Many manuscripts and early translations do not have this passage
(8:1-11)"
Thus it is likely that Jesus never said those things at all. Since
Jesus was born under the Mosaic laws, he was also bound by them,
including any death penalties etc.

But in the trial of
Jesus, the Sanhedrin did not have the right to execute Jesus. John
18:31. Then Stephen was arrested (granted not in Jerusalem) and taken
to the Sanhedrin, tried, and stoned. Acts 6 and 7.

I was wondering if there were any Biblical or secular sources that
could tell us whether the inhabitants of Judea could enforce their own
religious laws with the death penalty while under Roman occupation, or
whether those who were going to stone the adultress and who did stone
Stephen were simply acting outside the law.

We have a historical source which helps to answer your question. The
details can be found in this answer to a similar question as yours:
"Questions From Readers
Did the Jews have legal authority to execute Jesus, as suggested by
Pilate's words at John 19:6?
We cannot be sure whether at that time the Romans granted the Jews
authority to carry out executions.
After the Jewish leaders instigated Jesus' arrest, they held a form of
trial. During the trial they "were looking for false witness against
Jesus in order to put him to death." Finally, they pronounced Jesus
guilty of blasphemy and said that he thus was "liable to death."
(Matthew 26:59, 60, 65, 66) But after "consultation against Jesus so
as to put him to death," they took him to the Roman governor,
Pilate.-Matthew 27:1, 2.
These circumstances have led many to conclude that the Jews did not
then have Roman permission to execute Jesus Christ on that religious
charge. Apparently confirming this view is the Jews' reply when Pilate
told them to judge the accused under Jewish law. They responded: "It
is not lawful for us to kill anyone." (John 18:31) In fact, a
tradition related in the Jerusalem Talmud says that about 40 years
before Jerusalem's destruction in 70 C.E., the Jews lost their
authority to execute wrongdoers.
How strange it is, then, to read Pilate's words at John 19:6.
Responding to shouts from the religious leaders for Jesus' impalement,
Pilate told them: "Take him yourselves and impale him, for I do not
find any fault in him." This statement seems to conflict with what the
Jews had said at John 18:31.
Jewish historian Flavius Josephus provides an eyewitness account that
may shed light on this conflict. He reports that during the Roman
assault on Jerusalem in 70 C.E., the rebels retreated into the temple
precinct. Some of these bloodied fighters were in areas that had been
off limits because of their sacredness. Repelled by this desecration
of what even Romans tended to view as sacred ground, General Titus
called out:
"You disgusting people! Didn't you put up that balustrade [or low
barrier dividing off part of the courtyard] to guard your Holy House?
Didn't you at intervals along it place slabs inscribed in Greek
characters and our own, forbidding anyone to go beyond the parapet?
And didn't we give you leave to execute anyone who did go beyond it,
even if he was a Roman? Why then, you guilty men, are you now
trampling dead bodies inside it?"-The Jewish War, translated by G. A.
Williamson, page 312. Italics ours.
Hence, even if the Romans did not let the Jews employ capital
punishment for civil offenses, it seems that they did grant authority
to execute for certain grave religious offenses. The Jews who handed
Jesus over to Pilate may have thought it desirable to let the Romans
do the executing, perhaps to make his death more repugnant, and so any
public outcry would be directed against the foreigners. (Galatians
3:13; Deuteronomy 21:23) Pilate, though, possibly wanting to avoid
that problem, told them: "Take him yourselves and impale him." He
might have been indicating, too, that he felt that if the issue was a
religious one of sufficient gravity, the Jewish leaders must bear
responsibility for executing Jesus." (1988 Watchtower, 7/1, p. 31)
I hope this has helped to answer your questions.
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************


Thandarr

.

User: "Thandarr"

Title: Re: History question, Could the Jews under Roman Occupation execute the death penalty 25 Dec 2006 06:06:24 PM
Thank you for the response. At least I know more than I did.
Thandarr.
James wrote:

"Thandarr" <thandarr@yahoo.com>
Re: History question, Could the Jews under Roman Occupation execute the death penalty


I tried to find out from an Internet search and couldn't figure out how
to get the answer. In John the people are preparing to execute an
adultress when Jesus stops them. John 8:11.


Thandarr,

First of all, those verses at John 8:11 and around it, are of
questionable origin. Thus they may not have been included in the
original writings of the book of John.

For example, the Bible "The Revised Standard Version Bible" in the
marginal notes, refers to John 7:53-8:11 and says,

"some mark the passage as doubtful".

Also the Bible "Today's English Version" in its marginal notes, says
concerning John 8:1-11,

"Many manuscripts and early translations do not have this passage
(8:1-11)"

Thus it is likely that Jesus never said those things at all. Since
Jesus was born under the Mosaic laws, he was also bound by them,
including any death penalties etc.


But in the trial of
Jesus, the Sanhedrin did not have the right to execute Jesus. John
18:31. Then Stephen was arrested (granted not in Jerusalem) and taken
to the Sanhedrin, tried, and stoned. Acts 6 and 7.

I was wondering if there were any Biblical or secular sources that
could tell us whether the inhabitants of Judea could enforce their own
religious laws with the death penalty while under Roman occupation, or
whether those who were going to stone the adultress and who did stone
Stephen were simply acting outside the law.


We have a historical source which helps to answer your question. The
details can be found in this answer to a similar question as yours:

"Questions From Readers

Did the Jews have legal authority to execute Jesus, as suggested by
Pilate's words at John 19:6?

We cannot be sure whether at that time the Romans granted the Jews
authority to carry out executions.

After the Jewish leaders instigated Jesus' arrest, they held a form of
trial. During the trial they "were looking for false witness against
Jesus in order to put him to death." Finally, they pronounced Jesus
guilty of blasphemy and said that he thus was "liable to death."
(Matthew 26:59, 60, 65, 66) But after "consultation against Jesus so
as to put him to death," they took him to the Roman governor,
Pilate.-Matthew 27:1, 2.

These circumstances have led many to conclude that the Jews did not
then have Roman permission to execute Jesus Christ on that religious
charge. Apparently confirming this view is the Jews' reply when Pilate
told them to judge the accused under Jewish law. They responded: "It
is not lawful for us to kill anyone." (John 18:31) In fact, a
tradition related in the Jerusalem Talmud says that about 40 years
before Jerusalem's destruction in 70 C.E., the Jews lost their
authority to execute wrongdoers.

How strange it is, then, to read Pilate's words at John 19:6.
Responding to shouts from the religious leaders for Jesus' impalement,
Pilate told them: "Take him yourselves and impale him, for I do not
find any fault in him." This statement seems to conflict with what the
Jews had said at John 18:31.

Jewish historian Flavius Josephus provides an eyewitness account that
may shed light on this conflict. He reports that during the Roman
assault on Jerusalem in 70 C.E., the rebels retreated into the temple
precinct. Some of these bloodied fighters were in areas that had been
off limits because of their sacredness. Repelled by this desecration
of what even Romans tended to view as sacred ground, General Titus
called out:

"You disgusting people! Didn't you put up that balustrade [or low
barrier dividing off part of the courtyard] to guard your Holy House?
Didn't you at intervals along it place slabs inscribed in Greek
characters and our own, forbidding anyone to go beyond the parapet?
And didn't we give you leave to execute anyone who did go beyond it,
even if he was a Roman? Why then, you guilty men, are you now
trampling dead bodies inside it?"-The Jewish War, translated by G. A.
Williamson, page 312. Italics ours.

Hence, even if the Romans did not let the Jews employ capital
punishment for civil offenses, it seems that they did grant authority
to execute for certain grave religious offenses. The Jews who handed
Jesus over to Pilate may have thought it desirable to let the Romans
do the executing, perhaps to make his death more repugnant, and so any
public outcry would be directed against the foreigners. (Galatians
3:13; Deuteronomy 21:23) Pilate, though, possibly wanting to avoid
that problem, told them: "Take him yourselves and impale him." He
might have been indicating, too, that he felt that if the issue was a
religious one of sufficient gravity, the Jewish leaders must bear
responsibility for executing Jesus." (1988 Watchtower, 7/1, p. 31)

I hope this has helped to answer your questions.

Sincerely, James


***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************




Thandarr

.
User: "Azaliah"

Title: Re: History question, Could the Jews under Roman Occupation execute the death penalty 27 Dec 2006 10:07:14 AM
On 25 Dec 2006 16:06:24 -0800, while bungee jumping,
"Thandarr" <thandarr@yahoo.com> shouted thusly:

Thank you for the response. At least I know more than I did.

The verses in John are not of "questionable origin".
People like to claim that, when they aren't smart
enough to figure something out.
No, they were not allowed to execute the death penalty
whenever they wanted to. That doesn't mean that they
didn't get so ***** that they never tried to. :)
The fact is, even if what James said below, aside from
questioning the texts, because some footnote in his
Bible refers to the corrupt Alexandrian Text and
falsely calls them "many texts" is otherwise accurate,
Jesus did not desecrate the Holy place.
Furthermore, Paul said that a state of lawlessness was
coming and it did, especially during the war. People
today want to claim it's about our time, but it isn't.
Point being is that the fact that these things occurred,
has nothing to do with Jesus, since He did not ever
desecrate the Temple.

Thandarr.
James wrote:

"Thandarr" <thandarr@yahoo.com>
Re: History question, Could the Jews under Roman Occupation execute the death penalty


I tried to find out from an Internet search and couldn't figure out how
to get the answer. In John the people are preparing to execute an
adultress when Jesus stops them. John 8:11.


Thandarr,

First of all, those verses at John 8:11 and around it, are of
questionable origin. Thus they may not have been included in the
original writings of the book of John.

For example, the Bible "The Revised Standard Version Bible" in the
marginal notes, refers to John 7:53-8:11 and says,

"some mark the passage as doubtful".

Also the Bible "Today's English Version" in its marginal notes, says
concerning John 8:1-11,

"Many manuscripts and early translations do not have this passage
(8:1-11)"

Thus it is likely that Jesus never said those things at all. Since
Jesus was born under the Mosaic laws, he was also bound by them,
including any death penalties etc.


But in the trial of
Jesus, the Sanhedrin did not have the right to execute Jesus. John
18:31. Then Stephen was arrested (granted not in Jerusalem) and taken
to the Sanhedrin, tried, and stoned. Acts 6 and 7.

I was wondering if there were any Biblical or secular sources that
could tell us whether the inhabitants of Judea could enforce their own
religious laws with the death penalty while under Roman occupation, or
whether those who were going to stone the adultress and who did stone
Stephen were simply acting outside the law.


We have a historical source which helps to answer your question. The
details can be found in this answer to a similar question as yours:

"Questions From Readers

Did the Jews have legal authority to execute Jesus, as suggested by
Pilate's words at John 19:6?

We cannot be sure whether at that time the Romans granted the Jews
authority to carry out executions.

After the Jewish leaders instigated Jesus' arrest, they held a form of
trial. During the trial they "were looking for false witness against
Jesus in order to put him to death." Finally, they pronounced Jesus
guilty of blasphemy and said that he thus was "liable to death."
(Matthew 26:59, 60, 65, 66) But after "consultation against Jesus so
as to put him to death," they took him to the Roman governor,
Pilate.-Matthew 27:1, 2.

These circumstances have led many to conclude that the Jews did not
then have Roman permission to execute Jesus Christ on that religious
charge. Apparently confirming this view is the Jews' reply when Pilate
told them to judge the accused under Jewish law. They responded: "It
is not lawful for us to kill anyone." (John 18:31) In fact, a
tradition related in the Jerusalem Talmud says that about 40 years
before Jerusalem's destruction in 70 C.E., the Jews lost their
authority to execute wrongdoers.

How strange it is, then, to read Pilate's words at John 19:6.
Responding to shouts from the religious leaders for Jesus' impalement,
Pilate told them: "Take him yourselves and impale him, for I do not
find any fault in him." This statement seems to conflict with what the
Jews had said at John 18:31.

Jewish historian Flavius Josephus provides an eyewitness account that
may shed light on this conflict. He reports that during the Roman
assault on Jerusalem in 70 C.E., the rebels retreated into the temple
precinct. Some of these bloodied fighters were in areas that had been
off limits because of their sacredness. Repelled by this desecration
of what even Romans tended to view as sacred ground, General Titus
called out:

"You disgusting people! Didn't you put up that balustrade [or low
barrier dividing off part of the courtyard] to guard your Holy House?
Didn't you at intervals along it place slabs inscribed in Greek
characters and our own, forbidding anyone to go beyond the parapet?
And didn't we give you leave to execute anyone who did go beyond it,
even if he was a Roman? Why then, you guilty men, are you now
trampling dead bodies inside it?"-The Jewish War, translated by G. A.
Williamson, page 312. Italics ours.

Hence, even if the Romans did not let the Jews employ capital
punishment for civil offenses, it seems that they did grant authority
to execute for certain grave religious offenses. The Jews who handed
Jesus over to Pilate may have thought it desirable to let the Romans
do the executing, perhaps to make his death more repugnant, and so any
public outcry would be directed against the foreigners. (Galatians
3:13; Deuteronomy 21:23) Pilate, though, possibly wanting to avoid
that problem, told them: "Take him yourselves and impale him." He
might have been indicating, too, that he felt that if the issue was a
religious one of sufficient gravity, the Jewish leaders must bear
responsibility for executing Jesus." (1988 Watchtower, 7/1, p. 31)

I hope this has helped to answer your questions.

Sincerely, James


***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************




Thandarr

--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
.
User: "Libertarius"

Title: Re: History question, Could the Jews under Roman Occupation executethe death penalty 27 Dec 2006 05:35:25 PM
The answer is right there in your Bible:
See the story of Stephen in the book of ACTS.
But anyone reading the story of Jesus in the Gospels
can see that the authors attribute his death to thge
Romans, for POLITICAL reasons. He is executed for being
a rebel leader, claiming to be the new king.
In fact the authors probably used stories such as
that of Manahem and other messianic claimants,
at least in part, to write their fictional story of
the character "IESOUS". -- L.
.
User: "Thandarr"

Title: Re: History question, Could the Jews under Roman Occupation execute the death penalty 30 Dec 2006 08:43:09 PM
I started out with Stephen in the Book of Acts. See my post that
started this. It seemed to me that the Jews did execute Stephen for
blasphemy. That can't be THE answer, though, because there is also the
language that suggests that the Romans would not allow the Jews to put
Jesus of Nazareth to death.
As to the grounds for Jesus's execution, it does not seem strange that
the Jews would have needed to structure the accusations to make them
something the Romans would care about. I don't see why the Romans
would particularly care if Jesus was out there claiming to be the son
of the Jewish God. A king, on the other hand, would present real
problems to the Romans.
Also, I guess I need to know more about verses of the Gospels that
apparently are seen by some as questionable. Did the Christians not
have an agreed text sometime in the 300's or 400's?
I guess more specifically the question is whether the Jews could have
stoned Jesus without offending Roman law. If they could, why wouldn't
they have done it? It certainly seems that some of the statements made
by Jesus about his divinity--assuming they were untrue--would have been
blasphemous in a society in which the concept of God is the Jehovah of
the Hebrew scriptures.
Thandarr
Libertarius wrote:

The answer is right there in your Bible:
See the story of Stephen in the book of ACTS.

But anyone reading the story of Jesus in the Gospels
can see that the authors attribute his death to thge
Romans, for POLITICAL reasons. He is executed for being
a rebel leader, claiming to be the new king.

In fact the authors probably used stories such as
that of Manahem and other messianic claimants,
at least in part, to write their fictional story of
the character "IESOUS". -- L.

.





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