| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Read The Bible" |
| Date: |
13 Jul 2007 07:32:29 AM |
| Object: |
Re: HOW CAN JESUS BE GOD? |
R L Measures quoted John Acton on Jul 12, 6:28 am:
It is my opinion that none of the presently
accepted scriptures that comprise the NT were
written by an apostle...
There is no proof that any of the books of the New
Testament wasn't written by one of the apostles
(e.g. 2 Peter 1:16; 1 John 1:1-3; 1 Corinthians 9:1)
or by one of their immediate followers (e.g. Luke
1:2, Hebrews 2:3).
John said: Unlearned in history, they allow
themselves to be governed by the Unknown Past
There is no historical proof against the accuracy of
anything in the past made known by the Bible.
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
marcinmd said on Jul 12, 12:11 pm:
The very Creed that Orthodox believing Christians
stand by was written in Council ( "I believe in
one God, the Father almighty. Maker of Heaven and
Earth and all things visible and invisible. And in
one Lord, Jesus Christ, son of the Living God . . .
That echoes 1 Corinthians 8:6 somewhat, but tends to
discount the Biblical emphasis elsewhere that Jesus
is the Creator (John 1:3,10, Colossians 1:16).
marcinmd said: www.[link]
We all must beware of placing "www" on anything, for
"www" is a cleverly-disguised form of "666", the
number of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:18). The
sixth letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, which
stood for the number 6, is transliterated as the
letter "w", so that "www" is the equivalent of "666".
Satan and his servants could chuckle when they see
Christians placing "www" on their website URLs, for
they know that almost all Christians have no idea
that they are placing the equivalent of "666" on
their websites. Satan is the master of deception;
"That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world" (Revelation 12:9);
Christians must not be "ignorant of his devices"
(2 Corinthians 2:11).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
Mark T said on Jul 12, 5:57 pm:
Jesus of Nazareth WAS a mortal man like all others
Insofar as His being fully-human was concerned, yes
(Hebrews 2:17). But not insofar as His existing
before He became a man (John 1:1,14; Philippians
2:6-8, John 8:58, Micah 5:2).
Mark T said: 'I am Yahweh your God who brought you
out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of
slavery. You shall have NO GODS (INCLUDING JESUS)
EXCEPT ME.' - Exodus 20: 1-2 [sic, should be
Exodus 20:2-3]
It doesn't say "including Jesus" because Jesus is
YHWH (John 10:11 & Psalms 23:1; Acts 1:11-12 &
Zechariah 14:3-4).
Mark T said: "'Love the Lord your God {YAHWEH NOT
YAHWEH'S HUMAN MESSIAH] . . .'" Matthew 22:37...
It doesn't say "not YHWH's human Messiah" because
the human Messiah is Lord and God (John 20:28).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
arah said on Jul 12, 6:44 pm:
Do you mean that your God is so weak that he can't
even save Himself from being crucified
Jesus purposely didn't save Himself from being
crucified (Matthew 26:53-54), for He knew that He
had to die for our sins (Matthew 26:28). In His great
love for us sinners (Romans 5:6-8), He willingly gave
up His life for us (John 10:11,17-18; Revelation 1:5).
arah said: Do you trust Paul the murderer more
than Jesus?
Paul the persecutor was forgiven by Jesus (1 Timothy
1:12-17) and became Paul the apostle (Acts 26:15-18),
who never contradicted anything Jesus or any of
Jesus' other apostles taught (unlike someone else who
would come much, much later; cf. Galatians 1:8).
.
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| User: "Mark T moi@ere55" |
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| Title: Re: HOW CAN JESUS BE GOD? |
13 Jul 2007 05:49:07 PM |
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BIBLICALLY ILLITERATE "Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wroteth:
Jesus of Nazareth WAS a mortal man like all others
Insofar as His being fully-human was concerned, yes
FINALLY!!!!
'I am Yahweh your God who brought you
out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of
slavery. You shall have NO GODS (INCLUDING JESUS)
EXCEPT ME.' - Exodus 20: 1-2
It doesn't say "including Jesus"
But it means it.
"'Love the Lord your God {YAHWEH NOT
YAHWEH'S HUMAN MESSIAH] . . .'" Matthew 22:37...
It doesn't say "not YHWH's human Messiah"
But it means it.
--
" Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God [YAHWEH]
has made him both Lord (BOSS) and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
(Act 2:36)
--
A Trew Kristyun is a deranged individual living in the current
Fundamentalist Dark Age who believes:
- The One God Yahweh is really three gods.
- Jesus, a finite Jew from Nazareth, is the infinite One God Yahweh
- A human sacrifice was required by God because God needs blood, gore and
guts in order to forgive sins.
- The Bible, a collection of fallible ancient Near Eastern books / letters /
myths, is "God's word" and inerrant
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity/ song covers & pics & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
.
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| User: "arah" |
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| Title: Re: HOW CAN JESUS BE GOD? |
25 Jul 2007 01:33:28 AM |
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John w, you have to read this
Historical Reminder Judeo-Christian and Saint Paul
The majority of Christians believe that the Gospels were written by
direct witnesses of the life of Jesus and therefore constitute
unquestionable evidence concerning the events high-lighting His life
and preachings. One wonders, in the presence of such guarantees of
authenticity, how it is possible to discuss the teachings derived from
them and how one can cast doubt upon the validity of the Church as an
institution applying the general instructions Jesus Himself gave.
Today's popular editions of the Gospels contain commentaries aimed at
propagating these ideas among the general public.
The value the authors of the Gospels have as eye-witnesses is always
presented to the faithful as axiomatic. In the middle of the Second
century, Saint Justin did, after all, call the Gospels the 'Memoirs of
the Apostles'. There are moreover so many details proclaimed
concerning the authors that it is a wonder that one could ever doubt
their accuracy. 'Matthew was a well-known character 'a customs officer
employed at the tollgate or customs house at Capharnaum'; it is even
said that he spoke Aramaic and Greek. Mark is also easily identifiable
as Peter's colleague; there is no doubt that he too was an eye-
witness. Luke is the 'dear physician' of whom Paul talks: information
on him is very precise. John is the Apostle who was always near to
Jesus, son of Zebedee, fisherman on the Sea of Galilee.
Modern studies on the beginnings of Christianity show that this way of
presenting things hardly corresponds to reality. We shall see who the
authors of the Gospels really were. As far as the decades following
Jesus's mission are concerned, it must be understood that events did
not at all happen in the way they have been said to have taken place
and that Peter's arrival in Rome in no way laid the foundations for
the Church. On the contrary, from the time Jesus left earth to the
second half of the Second century, there was a struggle between two
factions. One was what one might call Pauline Christianity and the
other Judeo-Christianity. It was only very slowly that the first
supplanted the second, and Pauline Christianity triumphed over Judeo-
Christianity.
A large number of very recent works are based on contemporary
discoveries about Christianity. Among them we find Cardinal Dani=E9lou's
name. In December 1967 he published an article in the review Studies
(Etudes) entitled. 'A New Representation of the Origins of
Christianity: Judeo-Christianity'. (Une vision nouvelle des origines
chr=E9tiennes, le jud=E9o-christianisme). Here he reviews past works,
retraces its history and enables us to place the appearance of the
Gospels in quite a different context from the one that emerges on
reading accounts intended for mass publication. What follows is a
condensed version of the essential points made in his article,
including many quotations from it.
After Jesus's departure, the "little group of Apostles" formed a
"Jewish sect that remained faithful to the form of worship practised
in the Temple". However, when the observances of converts from
paganism were added to them, a 'special system' was offered to them,
as it were: the Council of Jerusalem in 49 A.D. exempted them from
circumcision and Jewish observances; "many Judeo-Christians rejected
this concession". This group was quite separate from Paul's. What is
more, Paul and the Judeo-Christians were in conflict over the question
of pagans who had turned to Christianity, (the incident of Antioch, 49
A=2ED.). "For Paul, the circumcision, Sabbath, and form of worship
practised in the Temple were henceforth old fashioned, even for the
Jews. Christianity was to free itself from its political-*****-religious
adherence to Judaism and open itself to the Gentiles."
For those Judeo-Christians who remained 'loyal Jews,' Paul was a
traitor. Judeo-Christian documents call him an 'enemy', accuse him of
'tactical double-dealing', . . . '"Until 70 A.D., Judeo-Christianity
represents the majority of the Church" and "Paul remains an isolated
case". The head of the community at that time was James, a relation of
Jesus. With him were Peter (at the beginning) and John. "James may be
considered to represent the Judeo-Christian camp, which deliberately
clung to Judaism as opposed to Pauline Christianity." Jesus's family
has a very important place in the Judeo-Christian Church of Jerusalem.
"James's successor was Simeon, son of Cleopas, a cousin of the Lord".
Cardinal Danielou here quotes Judeo-Christian writings which express
the views on Jesus of this community which initially formed around the
apostles: the Gospel of the Hebrews (coming from a Judeo-Christian
community in Egypt), the writings of Clement: Homilies and
Recognitions, 'Hypotyposeis', the Second Apocalypse of James, the
Gospel of Thomas. [ One could note here that all these writings were
later to be classed as Apocrypha, i.e. they had to be concealed by the
victorious Church which was born of Paul's success. This Church made
obvious excisions in the Gospel literature and retained only the four
Canonic Gospels.] "It is to the Judeo-Christians that one must ascribe
the oldest writings of Christian literature." Cardinal Dani=E9lou
mentions them in detail.
"It was not just in Jerusalem and Palestine that Judeo-Christianity
predominated during the first hundred years of the Church. The Judeo-
Christian mission seems everywhere to have developed before the
Pauline mission. This is certainly the explanation of the fact that
the letters of Paul allude to a conflict." They were the same
adversaries he was to meet everywhere: in Galatia, Corinth, Colossae,
Rome and Antioch.
The Syro-Palestinian coast from Gaza to Antioch was Judeo-Christian
'"as witnessed by the Acts of the Apostles and Clementine writings".
In Asia Minor, the existence of Judeo-Christians is indicated in
Paul's letters to the Galatians and Colossians. Papias's writings give
us information about Judeo-Christianity in Phrygia. In Greece, Paul's
first letter to the Corinthians mentions Judeo-Christians, especially
at Apollos. According to Clement's letter and the Shepherd of Hermas,
Rome was an 'important centre'. For Suetonius and Tacitus, the
Christians represented a Jewish sect. Cardinal Dani=E9lou thinks that
the first evangelization in Africa was Judeo-Christian. The Gospel of
the Hebrews and the writings of Clement of Alexandria link up with
this.
It is essential to know these facts to understand the struggle between
communities that formed the background against which the Gospels were
written. The texts that we have today, after many adaptations from the
sources, began to appear around 70 A.D., the time when the two rival
communities were engaged in a fierce struggle, with the Judeo-
Christians still retaining the upper hand. With the Jewish war and the
fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. the situation was to be reversed. This is
how Cardinal Dani=E9lou explains the decline:
"After the Jews had been discredited in the Empire, the Christians
tended to detach themselves from them. The Hellenistic peoples of
Christian persuasion then gained the upper hand. Paul won a posthumous
victory. Christianity separated itself politically and sociologically
from Judaism; it became the third people. All the same, until the
Jewish revolt in 140 A.D., Judeo-Christianity continued to predominate
culturally"
From 70 A.D. to a period sometime before 110 A.D. the Gospels of Mark,
Matthew, Luke and John were produced. They do not constitute the first
written Christian documents: the letters of Paul date from well before
them. According to O. Culmann, Paul probably wrote his letter to the
Thessalonians in 50 A.D. He had probably disappeared several years
prior to the completion of Mark's Gospel.
Paul is the most controversial figure in Christianity. He was
considered to be a traitor to Jesus's thought by the latter's family
and by the apostles who had stayed in Jerusalem in the circle around
James. Paul created Christianity at the expense of those whom Jesus
had gathered around him to spread his teachings. He had not known
Jesus during his lifetime and he proved the legitimacy of his mission
by declaring that Jesus, raised from the dead, had appeared to him on
the road to Damascus. It is quite reasonable to ask what Christianity
might have been without Paul and one could no doubt construct all
sorts of hypotheses on this subject. As far as the Gospels are
concerned however, it is almost certain that if this atmosphere of
struggle between communities had not existed, we would not have had
the writings we possess today. They appeared at a time of fierce
struggle between the two communities. These 'combat writings', as
Father Kannengiesser calls them, emerged from the multitude of
writings on Jesus. These occurred at the time when Paul's style of
Christianity won through definitively, and created its own collection
of official texts. These texts constituted the 'Canon' which condemned
and excluded as unorthodox any other documents that were not suited to
the line adopted by the Church.
The Judeo-Christians have now disappeared as a community with any
influence, but one still hears people talking about them under the
general term of 'Juda=EFstic'. This is how Cardinal Dani=E9lou describes
their disappearance:
"When they were cut off -from the Great Church, that gradually freed
itself from its Jewish attachments, they petered out very quickly in
the West. In the East however it is possible to find traces of them in
the Third and Fourth Centuries A.D., especially in Palestine, Arabia,
Transjordania, Syria and Mesopotamia. Others joined in the orthodoxy
of the Great Church, at the same time preserving traces of Semitic
culture; some of these still persist in the Churches of Ethiopia and
Chaldea".
On Jul 13, 8:32 pm, Read The Bible <biblever...@yahoo.com> wrote:
R L Measures quotedJohnActon on Jul 12, 6:28 am:
It is my opinion that none of the presently
accepted scriptures that comprise the NT were
written by an apostle...
There is no proof that any of the books of the New
Testament wasn't written by one of the apostles
(e.g. 2 Peter 1:16; 1John1:1-3; 1 Corinthians 9:1)
or by one of their immediate followers (e.g. Luke
1:2, Hebrews 2:3).
Johnsaid: Unlearned in history, they allow
themselves to be governed by the Unknown Past
There is no historical proof against the accuracy of
anything in the past made known by the Bible.
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
marcinmd said on Jul 12, 12:11 pm:
The very Creed that Orthodox believing Christians
stand by was written in Council ( "I believe in
one God, the Father almighty. Maker of Heaven and
Earth and all things visible and invisible. And in
one Lord, Jesus Christ, son of the Living God . . .
That echoes 1 Corinthians 8:6 somewhat, but tends to
discount the Biblical emphasis elsewhere that Jesus
is the Creator (John1:3,10, Colossians 1:16).
marcinmd said:www.[link]
We all must beware of placing "www" on anything, for
"www" is a cleverly-disguised form of "666", the
number of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:18). The
sixth letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, which
stood for the number 6, is transliterated as the
letter "w", so that "www" is the equivalent of "666".
Satan and his servants could chuckle when they see
Christians placing "www" on their website URLs, for
they know that almost all Christians have no idea
that they are placing the equivalent of "666" on
their websites. Satan is the master of deception;
"That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world" (Revelation 12:9);
Christians must not be "ignorant of his devices"
(2 Corinthians 2:11).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
Mark T said on Jul 12, 5:57 pm:
Jesus of Nazareth WAS a mortal man like all others
Insofar as His being fully-human was concerned, yes
(Hebrews 2:17). But not insofar as His existing
before He became a man (John1:1,14; Philippians
2:6-8,John8:58, Micah 5:2).
Mark T said: 'I am Yahweh your God who brought you
out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of
slavery. You shall have NO GODS (INCLUDING JESUS)
EXCEPT ME.' - Exodus 20: 1-2 [sic, should be
Exodus 20:2-3]
It doesn't say "including Jesus" because Jesus is
YHWH (John10:11 & Psalms 23:1; Acts 1:11-12 &
Zechariah 14:3-4).
Mark T said: "'Love the Lord your God {YAHWEH NOT
YAHWEH'S HUMAN MESSIAH] . . .'" Matthew 22:37...
It doesn't say "not YHWH's human Messiah" because
the human Messiah is Lord and God (John20:28).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
arah said on Jul 12, 6:44 pm:
Do you mean that your God is so weak that he can't
even save Himself from being crucified
Jesus purposely didn't save Himself from being
crucified (Matthew 26:53-54), for He knew that He
had to die for our sins (Matthew 26:28). In His great
love for us sinners (Romans 5:6-8), He willingly gave
up His life for us (John10:11,17-18; Revelation 1:5).
arah said: Do you trust Paul the murderer more
than Jesus?
Paul the persecutor was forgiven by Jesus (1 Timothy
1:12-17) and became Paul the apostle (Acts 26:15-18),
who never contradicted anything Jesus or any of
Jesus' other apostles taught (unlike someone else who
would come much, much later; cf. Galatians 1:8).
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: HOW CAN JESUS BE GOD? |
30 Jul 2007 02:35:35 PM |
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Long live Israel!
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| User: " ::: vera :::" |
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| Title: Re: HOW CAN JESUS BE GOD? |
30 Jul 2007 05:15:34 PM |
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In news:1185824135.864861.314030@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com,
preacherpreaching@gmail.com <preacherpreaching@gmail.com> typed:
Long live Israel!
Amen!
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: HOW CAN JESUS BE GOD? |
30 Jul 2007 10:25:05 PM |
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By people declaring him "god". -- L.
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