| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"V" |
| Date: |
07 Jul 2007 06:21:21 PM |
| Object: |
Re: If at first you don't succeed... |
On Jul 7, 6:42 pm, wrote:
Having hitched themselves to the Nazis in the 40's, The Catholic
church made another swing for the fence during the junta in 1970's
Argentina! Ho, ho, ya can't keep a good religion down!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6272682.stm
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
People like to compare and contrast famous figures of history with
practical application of wisdom and philosophy.
I had seen this done many times on the Buddhist forums where it was
argued if Buddha did this or Buddha did that.
The atheists have a predisposition to look towards the failures of
monotheists to document how the religions wisdom fails.
Then the theists like to point fingers at the atheist failures.
All this means nothing.
It is no different from finding bad parent and saying we should outlaw
parents because one is bad.
Hitler in one such famous example.
The real answer to the question is not whether Hitler was a Christian,
but whether Hitler practiced the philosophy of Christianity?
It is true that many Christians do not practice what they preach.
Same with Jews, Hindus, Muslims as well as Atheists.
Atheist don't preach do they?
Well, read on to find the answer.
This phenomena of 'talking the talk but not walking the walk' is not
limited to any one set of beliefs. It just proves the point that
'knowledge without application is useless' and this applies to every
religion known to mankind as well as the atheists. Each religion
contains perfection's as well as imperfections. It is up to the
practitioner or end user to use the tools in the right way. This also
confirms the 'eightfold path of Buddhism' that reminds us of the right
and wrong ways to peace.
1=2E Right View
2=2E Right Intention
3=2E Right Speech
4=2E Right Action
5=2E Right Livelihood
6=2E Right Effort
7=2E Right Mindfulness
8=2E Right Concentration
The problem is not the wisdom that is defective. The problem lies with
religious practitioners who are defective in their practice of this
wisdom. The wisdom works - we don't work the wisdom.
Many of us get blinded with labels and personal prejudices. Whenever
we take it upon ourselves to beat down, we are headed in a direction
of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as others peace.
As such, I practice from many religious and spiritual traditions
without problems or prejudices and readily look for such gifts
irrespective of what label they come under - on the contrary I am most
grateful wherever I find them.
The Five precepts are the 'commandments' more or less for Buddhists.
Although you are not commanded to do a thing. If you wish to live at
peace, then proceed the best you can - but it is your choice.
"The Five Precepts"
1=2E Refrain from Killing
2=2E Refrain from Stealing
3=2E Refrain from Sexual Misconduct
4=2E Refrain from False Speech
5=2E Refrain from the Use of Intoxicants
The business of humanism is 'all our business' if we with to live life
at peace. The atheists and secular humanists have their own set of
prepackaged morals to preach:
The 'informal creed' of atheism.
An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes
that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth
for all men together to enjoy.
An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he
must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life,
to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a
knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will
help to a life of fulfillment. He seeks to know himself and his fellow
man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital
should be built instead of a church.
An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer
said.
An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death.
He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He
wants man to understand and love man.
He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a
god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a
hereafter.
He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our
own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the
time is now."
http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/
"The Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles"
=B7 We are committed to the application of reason and science to the
understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
=B7 We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to
explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature
for salvation.
=B7 We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute
to the betterment of human life.
=B7 We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is
the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian
elites and repressive majorities.
=B7 We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and
state.
=B7 We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of
resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
=B7 We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and
with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
=B7 We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so
that they will be able to help themselves.
=B7 We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race,
religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or
ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of
humanity.
=B7 We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future
generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other
species.
=B7 We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our
creative talents to their fullest.
=B7 We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
=B7 We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to
fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to
exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and
informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
=B7 We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity,
honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to
critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we
discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
=B7 We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We
want to nourish reason and compassion.
=B7 We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
=B7 We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still
to be made in the cosmos.
=B7 We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to
novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
=B7 We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of
despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal
significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
=B7 We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than
despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance,
joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love
instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of
ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
=B7 We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that
we are capable of as human beings.
Council for Secular Humanism
Islam offers some very useful advice in the Qur'an.
1=2E Respect and honour all human beings irrespective of their
religion,
colour, race, sex, language, status, property, birth, profession/job
and so on [Qur'an17/70]
2=2E Talk straight, to the point, without any ambiguity or deception
[Qur'an33/70]
3=2E Choose best words to speak and say them in the best possible way
[Qur'an17/53, 2/83]
4=2E Do not shout. Speak politely keeping your voice low. [Qur'an31/19]
5=2E Always speak the truth. Shun words that are deceitful and
ostentatious [Qur'an22/30]
6=2E Do not confound truth with falsehood [Qur'an2/42]
7=2E Say with your mouth what is in your heart [Qur'an3/167]
8=2E Speak in a civilised manner in a language that is recognised by
the
society and is commonly used [Qur'an4/5]
9=2E When you voice an opinion, be just, even if it is against a
relative [Qur'an6/152]
10. Do not be a bragging boaster [Qur'an31/18]
11. Do not talk, listen or do anything vain [Qur'an23/3, 28/55]
12. Do not participate in any paltry. If you pass near a futile play,
then pass by with dignity [Qur'an25/72]
13. Do not verge upon any immodesty or lewdness whether surreptitious
or overt [Qur'an6/151]
14. If, unintentionally, any misconduct occurs by you, then correct
yourself expeditiously [Qur'an3/134]
15. Do not be contemptuous or arrogant with people [Qur'an31/18]
16. Do not walk haughtily or with conceit [Qur'an17/37, 31/18]
17. Be moderate in thy pace [Qur'an31/19]
18. Walk with humility and sedateness [Qur'an25/63]
19. Keep your gazes lowered devoid of any lecherous leers and
salacious stares [Qur'an24/30-31, 40/19]
20. If you do not have complete knowledge about anything, it is
better
to keep silent. You might think that speaking about something without
full knowledge is a trivial matter. But it might have grave
consequences
[Qur'an24/15-16]
21. When you hear something malicious about someone, keep a
favourable
view about him/her until you attain full knowledge about the matter.
Consider others innocent until they are proven guilty with solid and
truthful evidence [Qur'an24/12-13]
22. Ascertain the truth of any news, lest you smite someone in
ignorance and afterwards repent of what you did [Qur'an49/6]
23. Do not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct
knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you
must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be
held
accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning
[Qur'an17/36]
24. Never think that you have reached the final stage of knowledge
and
nobody knows more than yourself. Remember! Above everyone endowed
with
knowledge is another endowed with more knowledge [Qur'an12/76]. Even
the Prophet [p.b.u.h] was asked to keep praying, "O My sustainer!
Advance
me in knowledge." [Qur'an20:114]
25. The believers are but a single Brotherhood. Live like members of
one family, brothers and sisters unto one another [Qur'an49/10]
26. Do not make mockery of others or ridicule others [Qur'an49/11]
27. Do not defame others [Qur'an49/11]
28. Do not insult others by nicknames [Qur'an49/11]
29. Avoid suspicion and guesswork. Suspicion and guesswork might
deplete your communal energy [Qur'an49/12]
30. Spy not upon one another [Qur'an49/12]
31. Do not backbite one another [Qur'an49/12]
32. When you meet each other, offer good wishes and blessings for
safety. One who conveys to you a message of safety and security and
also when a courteous greeting is offered to you, meet it with a
greeting
still more courteous or (at least) of equal courtesy [Qur'an4/86]
33. When you enter your own home or the home of somebody else,
compliment the inmates [Qur'an24/61]
34. Do not enter houses other than your own until you have sought
permission; and then greet the inmates and wish them a life of
blessing,purity and pleasure [Qur'an24/27]
35. Treat kindly: Your parents; Relatives; The orphans; And those who
have been left alone in the society [Qur'an4/36]
36. Take care of: The needy, The disabled, Those whose hard earned
income is insufficient to meet their needs; And those whose
businesses have stalled ; And those who have lost their jobs.
[Qur'an4/36]
37. Treat kindly: Your related neighbours, and unrelated neighbours;
Companions by your side in public gatherings, or public
transportation.[Qur'an4/36]
38. Be generous to the needy wayfarer, the homeless son of the
street,and the one who reaches you in a destitute condition
[Qur'an4/36]
39. Be nice to people who work under your care. [Qur'an4/36]
40. Do not follow up what you have given to others to afflict them
with reminders of your generosity [Qur'an2/262]
41. Do not expect a return for your good behaviour, not even thanks
[Qur'an76/9]
42. Cooperate with one another in good deeds and do not cooperate
with
others in evil and bad matters [Qur'an5/2]
43. Do no try to impress people on account of self-proclaimed virtues
[Qur'an53/32]
44. You should enjoin right conduct on others but mend your own ways
first. Actions speak louder than words. You must first practice good
deeds yourself, then preach [Qur'an2/44]
45. Correct yourself and your families first [before trying to
correct
others] [Qur'an66/6]
46. Pardon gracefully if anyone among you who commits a bad deed out
of ignorance, and then repents and amends [Qur'an6/54, 3/134]
47. Divert and sublimate your anger and potentially virulent emotions
to creative energy, and become a source of tranquillity and comfort
to
people [Qur'an3/134]
48. Call people to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful
exhortation. Reason with them most decently [Qur'an16/125]
49. Leave to themselves those who do not give any importance to the
Divine code and have adopted and consider it as mere play and
amusement [Qur'an6/70]
50. Sit not in the company of those who ridicule Divine Law unless
they engage in some other conversation [Qur'an4/140]
51. Do not be jealous of those who are blessed [Qur'an4/54]
52. In your collective life, make rooms for others [Qur'an58/11]
53. When invited to dine, Go at the appointed time. Do not arrive too
early to wait for the preparation of meal or linger after eating to
engage in bootless babble. Such things may cause inconvenience to the
host [Qur'an33/53]
54. Eat and drink [what is lawful] in moderation [Qur'an7/31]
55. Do not squander your wealth senselessly [Qur'an17/26]
56. Fulfil your promises and commitments [Qur'an17/34]
57. Keep yourself clean, pure [Qur'an9/108, 4/43, 5/6]
58. Dress-up in agreeable attire and adorn yourself with exquisite
character from inside out [Qur'an7/26]
59. Seek your provision only by fair endeavour [Qur'an29/17, 2/188]
60. Do not devour the wealth and property of others unjustly, nor
bribe the officials or the judges to deprive others of their
possessions
[Qur'an2/188]
When I discussed Christian principles one time an atheist piped up to
say "the Christians have no principles," and "Jesus was a fabled
creation of the Christians." When we sperate the personalities from
the principles it makes looking at things much easier. When I am
referring to Christian principles I speak of such things as charity,
works of mercy and the golden rule, where the emphasis is on
principles and not on the personalities of the church. For even if
Jesus was just created as a fable, these Christian principles are
universal truths in their own right if one desires to live a life at
peace and promote the inner peace of others in this world.
"The Corporal Works of Mercy"
To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To harbour the harbourless
To visit the sick
To ransom the captive
To bury the dead
"The Spiritual Works of Mercy"
To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners
To bear wrongs patiently
To forgive offenses willingly
To comfort the afflicted
To pray for the living and the dead
You see, by applying the rule of reciprocity or rule of opposites we
can see if we were in these positions of the needy mentioned above, we
would like such charity bestowed on us for the most part. What about
our children, parents and loved ones? Wouldn't we wish the same for
them? We have no loved ones? What about our neighbors? The Christian
ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be treated. As we
give ~ so we receive. Even if an atheist, as we give peace - we
receive inner peace as many of the tools I mentioned above do not
require belief in God, they only requirement is a desire to be at
peace and to bring peace to others. This is the Christian doctrine in
a nutshell, when we put principles before personalities.
As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well. As James Allen wrote in "As
a man Thinketh" ~ To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to
patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are
the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of
peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their
possessor." This is universal truth that transcends man made
religions. Remember, we do not have to do it perfectly. Just look for
direction and forget perfection - for perfection or range is of the
ego and form is of the soul. There are many tools for peace within the
worlds spiritual paths, no one said these paths are perfect, in fact,
it was once said that walking the spiritual path is akin to walking on
a razors edge. But if we bother to be honest, non prejudicial and to
look, we can find tools that can help us be at peace whether atheist,
agnostic or believer.
I was at a religious discussion where the group was composed of a wide
spectrum of believers and non believers. One atheist said he ran his
life by the golden rule. Another person piped up that the golden rule
came from the bible, which made the atheist wince. The atheist seemed
to take pride in his self sufficiency and did not like to run his life
by anything that came out of the bible. When it came up that the
concept of golden rule might be from an earlier source than the bible,
the atheist was relieved.
This was a good reminder to me to examine where my guiding light
resides?
Is it ego based or truth based?
When the guiding light of this atheist was not grounded in the bible
he was happy. But when it came from an area that he did not like, he
was upset. How can the same material be used to build a palace by one
man, yet only build a hovel for another?
By one spiritual practitioner seeing truth and applying it to live a
life at peace. And the other person only seeing prejudice and problems
and doing nothing.
Every religion was made by man and as such every religion is imperfect
as it is run by man. Despite these imperfections, each religion also
has many "perfection's" within it as well. We can still be open to
peace generating tools from any of the religions and spiritual
traditions that are available to us if we are serious about being at
peace. This requires us to run our life by truth and not by prejudice.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Therefore, whatever you want
men to do to you, do also to them" (Matthew 7:12). Nowadays this verse
is commonly referred to as "The Golden Rule," and is more commonly
quoted as: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Here
are some of the earliest sources for this concept of reciprocity
~1970-1640 BCE "Do for one who may do for you, / That you may cause
him thus to do." - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110, Ancient
Egypt, tr. R.B. Parkinson.
* ~700 BCE "That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another
whatever is not good for its own self." - Dadistan-i-Dinik 94:5,
Zoroastrianism.
* ? BCE "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others."
- Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29, Zoroastrianism.
* ~550 BCE "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your
countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD." - Tanakh,
new JPS translation, Leviticus 19:18, Judaism.
* ~500 BCE "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find
hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5:18, Buddhism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity
Now, whether you believe in God or believe in Jesus or are an atheist
or Buddhist does this wisdom not apply to you? This truth is universal
in nature as it is based not on being of a certain religion, other
than that of the religion of humanity. In this case, you can adopt a
peace generating tool and apply it to your life irrespective of your
religious beliefs or lack thereof. I had to chuckle one time when an
atheists argued that the golden rule is not perfect, so he said he
does not follow it. When I questioned him about what he does follow as
well as the state of perfection that applied to his life, all he could
do was reply with ad hominem attacks.
If we are waiting for perfection when it comes to spiritual studies we
will always be disappointed. Before applying perfection to anything
outside of us, we should examine the perfection within us. The nature
of humans is that of imperfection, so we must always look towards
direction and forget perfection. I heard a story one time in a Yoga
lecture that illustrates this point. "Range is of the ego - Form is of
the soul." The only thing we need to be concerned with is how is our
form when it comes to our spiritual practice and our life.
Regarding the golden rule? It is more perfect than imperfect, so it is
a most useful tool to live a life at peace by. And when we combine it
with other tools such as universality, natural law, contrast the
greater good with the greater right, etc the synergistic effect is
close to perfection as humans can get with this subject. But it takes
some thinking and one will not see it without an open mind.
Wisdom for living a life at peace is all around us for the taking. But
many of us get blinded with labels and personal prejudices. Whenever
we take it upon ourselves to beat down, we are headed in a direction
of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as others peace.
As such, I practice from many religious and spiritual traditions
without problems or prejudices and readily look for such gifts
irrespective of what label they come under - on the contrary I am most
grateful wherever I find them. If I am not able to use a concept, I
leave it alone, but do not spend my time or energies to beat others
down. Do we like to be beaten down?
I saw some paintings in a Japanese museum that showed a cousin of the
Buddha being of great power and to show his strength he went up to a
baby elephant and pushed it down to the ground. A second painting
showed the Buddha helping this baby elephant back up to his feet and
the Buddha lifted the elephant high up over his head and said, "It is
much better to uplift - than to tear down." Whether this is a true
story or not I do not know. But we can all benefit from uplifting
rather than destroying.
I see this predisposition to destruction many times in responses I
receive from my posts. The critiques offer much in the line of 'no
goods' but they seldom do they offer any substantive tools to finding
peace. Maybe I do not have it '100% right' but I have it 'right
enough' to be able to be at peace if I apply these principles. If I
waited for perfection, I would never act. I use the tools at hand.
Aristotle ~ "It is the mark of an educated mind to rest satisfied with
the degree of precision which the nature of the subject admits and not
to seek exactness where only an approximation is possible."
This being able to 'rest satisfied' is something the perfectionists
lack and why they will never be at peace until they stop collecting
concepts and start using the concepts of peace generations. The
atheist I mentioned above demonstrated this with his blanket dismissal
of the golden rule since it is not 100% perfect. He could offer no
substitutes for the golden rule, all he could do was succumb to
personal attacks on me.
We can examine our writing to see what useful tools for finding peace
we offer to others it also says a lot about our own practice of
generating inner peace. When you practice peace promotion with others
you will reap inner peace promotion. When you practice destroying
others peace, you will reap self destruction of inner peace.
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
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| User: "Syd M." |
|
| Title: Re: If at first you don't succeed... |
08 Jul 2007 02:37:23 AM |
|
|
On Jul 7, 7:21 pm, V <v...@aol.com> wrote:
On Jul 7, 6:42 pm, wrote:
Having hitched themselves to the Nazis in the 40's, The Catholic
church made another swing for the fence during the junta in 1970's
Argentina! Ho, ho, ya can't keep a good religion down!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6272682.stm
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
People like
HO! <Whack>
PDW
.
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| User: "The Rev Dr. Hugh Jarse NLAHN." |
|
| Title: Re: If at first you don't succeed... |
08 Jul 2007 11:00:53 AM |
|
|
On Jul 8, 12:21 am, V <v...@aol.com> wrote:
On Jul 7, 6:42 pm, wrote:
Having hitched themselves to the Nazis in the 40's, The Catholic
church made another swing for the fence during the junta in 1970's
Argentina! Ho, ho, ya can't keep a good religion down!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6272682.stm
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
People like to compare and contrast
HO! <WHACK>
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: If at first you don't succeed... |
07 Jul 2007 08:26:49 PM |
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|
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:21:21 +0000, V wrote:
People
HO!!!! <SWHACK>
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.
"Climb out of your holes people!"
- Dr. House, on faith
.
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| User: "The Chief Instigator" |
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| Title: Re: If at first you don't succeed... |
07 Jul 2007 07:00:33 PM |
|
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V <vfr44@aol.com> writes:
On Jul 7, 6:42 pm, wrote:
Having hitched themselves to the Nazis in the 40's, The Catholic
church made another swing for the fence during the junta in 1970's
Argentina! Ho, ho, ya can't keep a good religion down!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6272682.stm
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
People like to compare and contrast famous figures of history with
practical application of wisdom and philosophy.
I had seen this done many times on the Buddhist forums where it was
argued if Buddha did this or Buddha did that.
Good for you...so go back and bother the Buddhists, who know better than to
try your guaranteed-failure tactics.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2006-07 Houston Aeros) AA#2273
LAST GAME: San Antonio 4, Houston 2 (April 15)
NEXT GAME: October 2007, date/place/opponent TBA
.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: If at first you don't succeed... |
08 Jul 2007 01:46:18 PM |
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V wrote:
Pe...
Ho! <whack>
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| If you're stupid, don't vote. -- NOVEMBER IS IMPEACHMENT REFERENDUM OF THE BUSH CRIME FAMILY...do your part to save the USA and mankind.
MY DEMANDS - The King of America - Live broadcasts out in the fields, trumping evil demons by the power of the Word . . . : They'll tell you, blame the shadows in the New World Order, but don't rely on evidence to form your conclusions on who PERSONA
Re: How to feel good about pulling your baby's head off... just don't look at them, be a coward and don't look at your baby, that you paid to have killed, buised, bloodied, and dismembered, on his birthday.
Re: You Shall Not Be Forsaken My American Friends - Christ, and the True Red, White, and Blue - WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON? - CNN must, and WILL be tried for high treason for their demon lies broadcasting the northern alliance don't push dope, while the T
Why did I have to go and don't make you love me?
JOHN HAGEE -- You *Don't* speak for our generation. Only for **your** bigoted PORTION of it!
You Don't Want This to Happen to You
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