Re: In God We Trust - NOT usurers!

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Pastor Frank"
Date:	07 Dec 2004 03:29:46 PM
Object:	Re: In God We Trust - NOT usurers!

"OmegaTime" <crajchel@Alpha.net> wrote in message
news:M5OdnfWmHtAGnyjcRVn-2Q@adelphia.com...

Yes, there is a lot to be said.

This logic of this debate is backwards. The more you write, the more you
prove my point. The more I write, the more I find myself overlooking
critical words. But where my eyes deceive me the Spirit compensates. I
stand by the translation and definition of USURY - to mean excessive
interest. I stand by the meaning of the parable in Matthew 25

The amount of interest, like the cost of everything else is always
"excessive", and that's why we always look for bargains. So what is your
point?
What someone wants to rent out his money, a car, an apartment or video
disks, is irrelevant. The only thing relevant is what someone is willing to
pay for it. I want a million bucks for my house, but I know I would only get
a small fraction of that.
But more serious. When I am old and live on what I get from renting out
my life-savings, I will I pray to God, that someone will want to borrow it
at a decent rate, so I can pay my bills. If interest is low I'll starve. So
don't tell pensioners, that government etc. should use force to keep
interests low. Government already does enough damage by running their money
printing machines over-time, creating a constant over-supply of brand new,
freshly printed and cheap Dollars.
Pastor Frank
The most important, yet most ignored commandments of Christ:
THE ROYAL LAW OF CHRIST
**Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
**31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
**Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."
THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."
.

User: "Aaron"
Title: Re: In God We Trust - NOT usurers!	09 Dec 2004 04:04:53 PM

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 05:29:46 +0800, "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>
wrote:

"OmegaTime" <crajchel@Alpha.net> wrote in message
news:M5OdnfWmHtAGnyjcRVn-2Q@adelphia.com...

The Usury forbidden in the Bible is any interest charged on any loan
made to a Jew suffering financial hardship. It does not cover Pagans
such as Romans, Greeks and Egyptians, nor does it cover a loan make to
a wealthy businessman who is using the money to generate even more
wealth for himself. See Leviticus 25:35-38.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: In God We Trust - NOT usurers!	11 Dec 2004 04:14:26 AM

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:b0qgr0psnb727b6llfaqpgp461jdvulf50@4ax.com...

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 05:29:46 +0800, "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>
wrote:

"OmegaTime" <crajchel@Alpha.net> wrote in message
news:M5OdnfWmHtAGnyjcRVn-2Q@adelphia.com...

Yes, there is a lot to be said.

This logic of this debate is backwards. The more you write, the more

you

prove my point. The more I write, the more I find myself overlooking
critical words. But where my eyes deceive me the Spirit compensates. I
stand by the translation and definition of USURY - to mean excessive
interest. I stand by the meaning of the parable in Matthew 25

Sure Aaron!!! The money-lenders at the temple were just lending our of
the kindenss of their hearts and without charging interest. Is that why
nasty Jesus overturned their tables?
No wonder Jews think Jesus was an inposter and a fraud. Tell us more of
your lies Aaron? When are you going to follow the Laws of Moses below Aaron,
you tell us REAL Jews do?
Pastor Frank
THE COMMANDMENTS YHWH GAVE MOSES ON MT. SINAI.
"For the law was given by Moses..." (John 1:17) and:
"...according to the law of Moses..." (Luke 2:22
Leviticus 20:9-27 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to
death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his
own head.
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife
of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his
father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be
put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be
on their own heads.
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them
have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both
he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be
among you.
If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to
death, and you must kill the animal.
If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it,
kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their
blood will be on their own heads.
If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or
his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be
cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and
will be held responsible.
If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has
sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and
she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your
mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of
you would be held responsible.
If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They
will be held responsible; they will die childless.
If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he
has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land
where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.
You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going
to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.
But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to
you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD
your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean
animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by
any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground-those which I
have set apart as unclean for you.
You are to be holy to me [3] because I, the LORD , am holy, and I
have set you apart from the nations to be my own.
A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be
put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own
heads.
Lev 21: 9 If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a
prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "When men strive together one with another, and
the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand
of him that smiteth him and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the
secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her"
.

User: "Aaron"
Title: Re: In God We Trust - NOT usurers!	11 Dec 2004 09:15:42 PM

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:14:26 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:b0qgr0psnb727b6llfaqpgp461jdvulf50@4ax.com...

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 05:29:46 +0800, "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>
wrote:

"OmegaTime" <crajchel@Alpha.net> wrote in message
news:M5OdnfWmHtAGnyjcRVn-2Q@adelphia.com...

Yes, there is a lot to be said.

This logic of this debate is backwards. The more you write, the more

you

Sure Aaron!!! The money-lenders at the temple were just lending our of
the kindenss of their hearts and without charging interest. Is that why
nasty Jesus overturned their tables?

Frank, what dp you think you talking about?
This discussion covers what the Bible says is permitted concerning
loaning money for interest.
The Canaanite money changers in the Temple were not loaning money.
These Pagan Canaanites should not have been allowed in the Temple
because they were not Jews or converts to Judaism. They were being
used as "Shabbis goyim." Obviously Jesus did not approve of this
man-made custom. These pagans were also using false weights to steal
from people, which is also forbidden in the Bible.

No wonder Jews think Jesus was an inposter and a fraud. Tell us more of
your lies Aaron? When are you going to follow the Laws of Moses below Aaron,
you tell us REAL Jews do?

Frank, your hatred for Jesus is coloring your thoughts. There is no
"Law of Moses;" there is the "Law of God/Jesus" in the OT.
Jesus, the Ultimate Jew, would kick the pagans out of the Temple.
By the way, Frank, I follow all the Laws of God, including all those
below. the real question is why you would think that anyone would NOT
follow these. Why do you think that Jesus' Law is unreasonable?

Pastor Frank

THE COMMANDMENTS YHWH GAVE MOSES ON MT. SINAI.
"For the law was given by Moses..." (John 1:17) and:
"...according to the law of Moses..." (Luke 2:22
Leviticus 20:9-27 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to
death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his
own head.
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife
of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his
father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be
put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be
on their own heads.
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them
have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both
he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be
among you.
If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to
death, and you must kill the animal.
If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it,
kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their
blood will be on their own heads.
If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or
his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be
cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and
will be held responsible.
If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has
sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and
she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your
mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of
you would be held responsible.
If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They
will be held responsible; they will die childless.
If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he
has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land
where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.
You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going
to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.
But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to
you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD
your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean
animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by
any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground-those which I
have set apart as unclean for you.
You are to be holy to me [3] because I, the LORD , am holy, and I
have set you apart from the nations to be my own.
A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be
put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own
heads.
Lev 21: 9 If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a
prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "When men strive together one with another, and
the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand
of him that smiteth him and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the
secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her"

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: In God We Trust - NOT usurers!	13 Dec 2004 07:15:30 AM

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:sddnr0tdqo00h3q54hhn4jknm3oisbedvc@4ax.com...

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:14:26 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

No wonder Jews think Jesus was an inposter and a fraud. Tell us more

your lies Aaron? When are you going to follow the Laws of Moses below

Aaron,

you tell us REAL Jews do?

Frank, your hatred for Jesus is coloring your thoughts. There is no
"Law of Moses;"

There you go again calling our NT Bible lies, your hatred of the NT
Bible and Christians is pretty obvious to everyone by now. You keep
demanding that Christians are to follow the below laws of Moses to the
letter.
Pastor Frank
"For the law was given by Moses..." (John 1:17) and:
"...according to the law of Moses..." (Luke 2:22
THE COMMANDMENTS YHWH GAVE MOSES ON MT. SINAI.
Leviticus 20:9-27 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to
death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his
own head.
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife
of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his
father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be
put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be
on their own heads.
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them
have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both
he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be
among you.
If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to
death, and you must kill the animal.
If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it,
kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their
blood will be on their own heads.
If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or
his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be
cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and
will be held responsible.
If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has
sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and
she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your
mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of
you would be held responsible.
If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They
will be held responsible; they will die childless.
If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he
has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land
where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.
You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going
to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.
But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to
you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD
your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean
animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by
any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground-those which I
have set apart as unclean for you.
You are to be holy to me [3] because I, the LORD , am holy, and I
have set you apart from the nations to be my own.
A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be
put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own
heads.
Lev 21: 9 If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a
prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "When men strive together one with another, and
the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand
of him that smiteth him and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the
secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her"
.

User: "Aaron"
Title: Re: In God We Trust - NOT usurers!	14 Dec 2004 12:12:21 AM

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:15:30 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:sddnr0tdqo00h3q54hhn4jknm3oisbedvc@4ax.com...

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:14:26 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

No wonder Jews think Jesus was an inposter and a fraud. Tell us more

your lies Aaron? When are you going to follow the Laws of Moses below

Aaron,

you tell us REAL Jews do?

Frank, your hatred for Jesus is coloring your thoughts. There is no
"Law of Moses;"

There you go again calling our NT Bible lies, your hatred of the NT
Bible and Christians is pretty obvious to everyone by now.

Frank, you just keep bearing false witness.
You snipped from my post without noting it which is dishonest.
You made the snip mid-sentance because you could not disprove the
sentance in its entirety. You made another un=noyed snip above that
one because you did not like the fact that you were wrong about the
money changers, and you are too dishonest to admit it.
I said:
Frank, your hatred for Jesus is coloring your thoughts. There is no
"Law of Moses;" there is the "Law of God/Jesus" in the OT.
Jesus, the Ultimate Jew, would kick the pagans out of the Temple.
By the way, Frank, I follow all the Laws of God, including all those
below. the real question is why you would think that anyone would NOT
follow these. Why do you think that Jesus' Law is unreasonable?

You keep
demanding that Christians are to follow the below laws of Moses to the
letter.

Pastor Frank

"For the law was given by Moses..." (John 1:17) and:
"...according to the law of Moses..." (Luke 2:22

While Moses wrote God's Word down all Christians and Jews know that
they are God's Words not Moses'.

THE COMMANDMENTS YHWH GAVE MOSES ON MT. SINAI.
Leviticus 20:9-27 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to
death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his
own head.
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife
of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his
father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be
put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be
on their own heads.
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them
have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both
he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be
among you.
If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to
death, and you must kill the animal.
If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it,
kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their
blood will be on their own heads.
If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or
his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be
cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and
will be held responsible.
If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has
sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and
she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your
mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of
you would be held responsible.
If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They
will be held responsible; they will die childless.
If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he
has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land
where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.
You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going
to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.
But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to
you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD
your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean
animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by
any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground-those which I
have set apart as unclean for you.
You are to be holy to me [3] because I, the LORD , am holy, and I
have set you apart from the nations to be my own.
A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be
put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own
heads.
Lev 21: 9 If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a
prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "When men strive together one with another, and
the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand
of him that smiteth him and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the
secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her"

Frank, why would anyone want to disobey these?
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: Aaron could be dnagerous killer, or a pathetic liar. Your choice.	14 Dec 2004 07:43:42 AM

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:ai0tr095gddc14ckrmtvmcsv7je7372t0o@4ax.com...

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:15:30 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

I said:
Frank, your hatred for Jesus is coloring your thoughts. There is no
"Law of Moses;" there is the "Law of God/Jesus" in the OT.
Jesus, the Ultimate Jew, would kick the pagans out of the Temple.

Then why does my Bible say it's the Law of Moses? > >"For the law was
given by Moses..." (John 1:17) and:

"...according to the law of Moses..." (Luke 2:22

By the way, Frank, I follow all the Laws of God, including all those
below. the real question is why you would think that anyone would NOT
follow these. Why do you think that Jesus' Law is unreasonable?

I think someone should call the police and dig up your basement for all
the bodies. You are sure a weird bird alright Aaron, weird and possibly
dangerous, unless you are just lying again.

THE COMMANDMENTS YHWH GAVE MOSES ON MT. SINAI.
Leviticus 20:9-27 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put

death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on

his

own head.
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife
of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to

death.

If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his
father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be
put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be
on their own heads.
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them
have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both
he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be
among you.
If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to
death, and you must kill the animal.
If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it,
kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their
blood will be on their own heads.
If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or
his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must

cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and
will be held responsible.
If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has
sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and
she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their

people.

Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your
mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of
you would be held responsible.
If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They
will be held responsible; they will die childless.
If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he
has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land
where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.
You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going
to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred

them.

But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to
you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD
your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean
animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by
any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground-those which I
have set apart as unclean for you.
You are to be holy to me [3] because I, the LORD , am holy, and I
have set you apart from the nations to be my own.
A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be
put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own
heads.
Lev 21: 9 If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a
prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "When men strive together one with another, and
the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the

hand

of him that smiteth him and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the
secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her"

Frank, why would anyone want to disobey these?

User: "Aaron"
Title: Re: Aaron could be dnagerous killer, or a pathetic liar. Your choice.	15 Dec 2004 08:37:55 AM

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:43:42 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:ai0tr095gddc14ckrmtvmcsv7je7372t0o@4ax.com...

Then why does my Bible say it's the Law of Moses? > >"For the law was
given by Moses..." (John 1:17) and:

"...according to the law of Moses..." (Luke 2:22

Because your Bible quotes Rabbinical prayer books using a Jewish term
to refer specifically to the Five books of the Bible that were given
through Moses.

I think someone should call the police and dig up your basement for all
the bodies. You are sure a weird bird alright Aaron, weird and possibly
dangerous, unless you are just lying again.

Try not to be stupid, Frank. If no one in your religious community
violates God's Law there is no need for punishment. And if you
believe the New Testament, Paul gave instructions for carrying out the
executions in communities where heathen Governments do not allow
execution by Jewish courts. The offender is treated like a corpse no
one speaks to does business with or acknowledges the existence of the
offender.
Frank, you have not answered. Why do you hate the Laws of Jesus that
you quoted below?
In fact, John 1:1-5 says that Jesus IS this Law; so, if you hate the
Law you hate Jesus, and if you reject the Law you reject Jesus.

THE COMMANDMENTS YHWH GAVE MOSES ON MT. SINAI.
Leviticus 20:9-27 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put

death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on

his

own head.
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife
of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to

death.

people.

them.

hand

of him that smiteth him and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the
secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her"

Frank, why would anyone want to disobey these?

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: Aaron could be dangerous killer, or a pathetic liar, or just plain insane. Your choice.	16 Dec 2004 05:55:12 AM

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:tii0s0p5b0rk6l1op6fo68mesvs4d5h8d8@4ax.com...

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:43:42 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

I think someone should call the police and dig up your basement for

all

the bodies. You are sure a weird bird alright Aaron, weird and possibly
dangerous, unless you are just lying again.

Try not to be stupid, Frank. If no one in your religious community
violates God's Law there is no need for punishment.

I just knew you were either lying or insane or both, for now you claim
that no one following the laws of Moses ever contravenes them and there is
no need for punishment according to the laws of Moses below:
Pastor Frank
THE COMMANDMENTS YHWH GAVE MOSES ON MT. SINAI.
"For the law was given by Moses..." (John 1:17) and:
"...according to the law of Moses..." (Luke 2:22
Leviticus 20:9-27 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to
death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his
own head.
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife
of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his
father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be
put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be
on their own heads.
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them
have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood
will be on their own heads.
If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both
he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be
among you.
If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to
death, and you must kill the animal.
If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it,
kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their
blood will be on their own heads.
If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or
his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be
cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and
will be held responsible.
If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has
sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and
she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your
mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of
you would be held responsible.
If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They
will be held responsible; they will die childless.
If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he
has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land
where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.
You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going
to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.
But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to
you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD
your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean
animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by
any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground-those which I
have set apart as unclean for you.
You are to be holy to me [3] because I, the LORD , am holy, and I
have set you apart from the nations to be my own.
A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be
put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own
heads.
Lev 21: 9 If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a
prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "When men strive together one with another, and
the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand
of him that smiteth him and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the
secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her"
.

User: "Aaron"
Title: Re: Aaron could be dangerous killer, or a pathetic liar, or just plain insane. Your choice.	16 Dec 2004 09:47:20 AM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:55:12 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:tii0s0p5b0rk6l1op6fo68mesvs4d5h8d8@4ax.com...

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:43:42 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

I think someone should call the police and dig up your basement for

all

the bodies. You are sure a weird bird alright Aaron, weird and possibly
dangerous, unless you are just lying again.

Try not to be stupid, Frank. If no one in your religious community
violates God's Law there is no need for punishment.

Frank again you bear false witness. There seems to be no end to your
evil.
No one in MY religious community has violated any of these.
Also, Frank, if you knew the Laws of Jurisprudence, you would know
that for a death penalty you need two men in good standing in their
synagogue, who personally observed the offence, who warned the
offenders just prior to the offense that their action would be a
captial crime, and who tried to prevent the action from happening to
testify against the offenders. Since this rarely hapened in ancient
Israel there were very few executions. Usually the sin was prevented.
Frank, if you knew the New Testament, you would know that Paul gave an
alternative observance of the Death penalty to be used when Satanic
powers dominate a government and prevent the execution of these
offenders. Paul wrotes that these people should be treated as
corpses; the Followers of Jesus were forbidden from talking to them,
doing business with them of giving them charity.
Frank, you have still not answered the question:
Why do you hate these laws of Jesus so much?

User: "xeno"
Title: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	11 Dec 2004 08:32:42 AM

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004, Pastor Frank wrote:

Sure Aaron!!! The money-lenders at the temple were just lending our of
the kindenss of their hearts and without charging interest. Is that why
nasty Jesus overturned their tables?

No doubt, if some megalomanical bum came into your shop & started upending
desks & computers, you 'll be howling for the cops to crack his head open
if not just out & out shoot him yourself.
.

User: "OmegaTime"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	11 Dec 2004 08:58:46 PM

xeno wrote:

No doubt, if some megalomanical bum came into your shop & started upending
desks & computers, you 'll be howling for the cops to crack his head open
if not just out & out shoot him yourself.

That's the point! Jesus didn't go their shops, they brought their shops
to God's temple. The time and place was not appropriate to profit. As
God's Son, Jesus demonstrated actions of getting rid of the uninvited.
Look at it like this, what if I were to come to your house and paste
WWJD stickers all over your windows, perform church services in your
front yard, and have a Christian concert in your backyard? You would
have me ejected, or get rid of me somehow. Now take into account that
all the governing authorities (police officers, judges, etc..) are right
there attending my religious outings. You would resort to the only means
remaining and that is to forcibly remove me and the others. Either you
would allow me to invade your home with my beliefs and leave (or join
in), or you would do whatever was necessary to get rid of me.
The preists and temple guards allowed this to happen. Jesus knew these
were uninvited profiteers (God did not invite them, they were not there
to worship). Your house is not the place to hold church services because
your property belongs to you and you should have the right to control
your borders. The temple belongs to God, it was built for God. The
preists had no concept for the sanctity of the temple, thus they allowed
profiteers to conduct business on the temple grounds.
Jesus was one God / man, and He sought no massive conflict. He didn't
order His disciples to overturn the tables, He did it Himself. He didn't
command His followers to organize an uprising to destroy the profiteers.
He embarrassed the preists and temple authorities by doing what they
already knew to be right. This is demonstrated by no record of arrest
for His actions. If this were against the law of the land, then Jesus
would have been arrested.
God's house is no longer the temple building. Our bodies are those
temples, and we no longer need a building to be with God. Jesus bridged
the gap of the temple curtain that separated God from man. This was the
significance of the temple curtain splitting top to bottom when Jesus
was crucified at the cross.
.

User: "xeno"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	11 Dec 2004 11:58:09 PM

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004, OmegaTime wrote:

No doubt, if some megalomanical bum came into your shop & started upending
desks & computers, you 'll be howling for the cops to crack his head open
if not just out & out shoot him yourself.

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't like it,
he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the tenants.

The preists and temple guards allowed this to happen.

Then, there you go.

Jesus knew these were uninvited profiteers (God did not invite them,
they were not there to worship).

What God? Any crazy man can claim God wants this or a that because God
doesn't evidently exist to dispute it.
.

User: "The Doctor"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	12 Dec 2004 08:06:51 AM

In article <20041211213206.H62294@synergy.transbay.net>,
xeno <xeno@transbay.net> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004, OmegaTime wrote:

No doubt, if some megalomanical bum came into your shop & started upending
desks & computers, you 'll be howling for the cops to crack his head open
if not just out & out shoot him yourself.

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't like it,
he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the tenants.

The preists and temple guards allowed this to happen.

Then, there you go.

Jesus knew these were uninvited profiteers (God did not invite them,
they were not there to worship).

What God? Any crazy man can claim God wants this or a that because God
doesn't evidently exist to dispute it.

Look around you. God DOES exist to dispute your falicious claim.
--
Member - Liberal International
This is

Ici

God Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising!
Merry Christmas 2004 and Happy New Year 2005
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: Xeno is a Loser, Frank. Get it?	13 Dec 2004 09:19:06 PM

"The Doctor" <doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> wrote in message
news:cphj9r$fs0$15@gallifrey.nk.ca...

In article <20041211213206.H62294@synergy.transbay.net>,
xeno <xeno@transbay.net> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004, OmegaTime wrote:

No doubt, if some megalomanical bum came into your shop & started

upending

desks & computers, you 'll be howling for the cops to crack his head

open

if not just out & out shoot him yourself.

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't like

it,

he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the tenants.

The preists and temple guards allowed this to happen.

Then, there you go.

Jesus knew these were uninvited profiteers (God did not invite them,
they were not there to worship).

What God? Any crazy man can claim God wants this or a that because God
doesn't evidently exist to dispute it.

Look around you. God DOES exist to dispute your falicious claim.

You won't convince the trolls of that, for they are not here in our
pristine Christian NGs to discuss Christ, but to reject and condemn. They
are already in "the outer darkness of hell, where there is "wailing" of
interminable complaints, and "gnashing of teeth" in furious hate. see below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mt:8:12: But the children of evil shall be cast into outer
darkness: There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
.

User: "xeno"
Title: The Looney Tunes of Pastor Frank	14 Dec 2004 07:37:27 AM

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, Pastor Frank wrote:

What God? Any crazy man can claim God wants this or a that because God
doesn't evidently exist to dispute it.

Look around you. God DOES exist to dispute your falicious claim.

You won't convince the trolls of that, for they are not here in our
pristine Christian NGs to discuss Christ, but to reject and condemn.

Rejecting & condemning Christ, (a trumped up title you want to bestow upon
a mythic figure who has all the hallmarks of ordinary madness), is a
discussion. You're not bothering to take a look at reality. There is no
God. There are only god nuts.

They are already in "the outer darkness of hell, where there is
"wailing" of interminable complaints, and "gnashing of teeth" in furious
hate.

Darkness is the state of sobriety under these circumstances.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	13 Dec 2004 09:15:30 AM

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:51:12 +0800, "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>
wrote:

"xeno" <xeno@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:20041211213206.H62294@synergy.transbay.net...

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004, OmegaTime wrote:

No doubt, if some megalomanical bum came into your shop &

started

upending

desks & computers, you 'll be howling for the cops to crack his

head

open

if not just out & out shoot him yourself.

That's the point! Jesus didn't go their shops, they brought their

shops

to God's temple. The time and place was not appropriate to

profit. As

God's Son, Jesus demonstrated actions of getting rid of the

uninvited.

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't

like it,

he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the

tenants.

The preists and temple guards allowed this to happen.

Then, there you go.

Jesus knew these were uninvited profiteers (God did not invite

them,

they were not there to worship).

What God? Any crazy man can claim God wants this or a that because

God

doesn't evidently exist to dispute it.

"Any crazy man" is also likely to troll religious NGs spouting

atheism,

to get "heated replies" from offended Christians. Post you atheism

already

to atheist NGs!!!!!!! I will post you over to them

Why do you avoid the question, Satanist? Why did you run away from it?
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	12 Dec 2004 10:44:15 AM

xeno wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004, OmegaTime wrote:

No doubt, if some megalomanical bum came into your shop & started upending
desks & computers, you 'll be howling for the cops to crack his head open
if not just out & out shoot him yourself.

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't like it,
he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the tenants.

The preists and temple guards allowed this to happen.

Then, there you go.

Jesus knew these were uninvited profiteers (God did not invite them,
they were not there to worship).

What God? Any crazy man can claim God wants this or a that because God
doesn't evidently exist to dispute it.

===>Jesus, as presented in the stories, appears to have been trying to follow
the prophets, especially Zeachariah, in achieving his goal of becoming the
king "Messiah". Zechariah says the king is to enter Jerusalem on a donkey, so
he sent his men to secure a donkey and marched into Jerusalem as the
"son of David", i.e. the legitimate heir to the throne.
Zechariah also wrote that there will be no more merchants in the Temple
"that day", (("Zechariah 14:21
....in that day there will be no more traders in the house of the Lord of
armies.")
so Jesus decided to start his revolution by chasing out the
merchants.
Zechariah also says that YHWH would descend on the Mount of Olives
and help the Jews fight their enemies, (Zechariah 14:3-4
Then the Lord will go out and make war against those nations,
as he did in the day of the fight....his feet will be on the Mount of Olives...)
so he ordered his men to sell their coats and buy swords,
and marched them up to the Mount of Olives.
He sent his brother Jude ("Judas") to present his declaration
of war to the Romans.
(John 13:27
Then Jesus said to him, Do quickly what you have to do.)
But "God" never showed up, and the Romans simply arrested, tried
and executed Jesus, who died, complaining that his God had
forsaken him. (Mark 15:34
"At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice,
"ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI ?"
which is translated,
"MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME ?") -- L.
.

User: "xeno"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	13 Dec 2004 02:11:59 AM

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Libertarius wrote:

xeno wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004, OmegaTime wrote:

No doubt, if some megalomanical bum came into your shop & started upending
desks & computers, you 'll be howling for the cops to crack his head open
if not just out & out shoot him yourself.

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't like it,
he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the tenants.

The preists and temple guards allowed this to happen.

Then, there you go.

Jesus knew these were uninvited profiteers (God did not invite them,
they were not there to worship).

What God? Any crazy man can claim God wants this or a that because God
doesn't evidently exist to dispute it.

===>Jesus, as presented in the stories, appears to have been trying to follow
the prophets, especially Zeachariah, in achieving his goal of becoming the
king "Messiah". Zechariah says the king is to enter Jerusalem on a donkey, so
he sent his men to secure a donkey and marched into Jerusalem as the
"son of David", i.e. the legitimate heir to the throne.
Zechariah also wrote that there will be no more merchants in the Temple
"that day", (("Zechariah 14:21
...in that day there will be no more traders in the house of the Lord of
armies.")
so Jesus decided to start his revolution by chasing out the
merchants.
Zechariah also says that YHWH would descend on the Mount of Olives
and help the Jews fight their enemies, (Zechariah 14:3-4
Then the Lord will go out and make war against those nations,
as he did in the day of the fight....his feet will be on the Mount of Olives...)
so he ordered his men to sell their coats and buy swords,
and marched them up to the Mount of Olives.
He sent his brother Jude ("Judas") to present his declaration
of war to the Romans.
(John 13:27
Then Jesus said to him, Do quickly what you have to do.)
But "God" never showed up, and the Romans simply arrested, tried
and executed Jesus, who died, complaining that his God had
forsaken him. (Mark 15:34
"At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice,
"ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI ?"
which is translated,
"MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME ?") -- L.

This gives me an idea for a screenplay. Thanks.
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	13 Dec 2004 07:18:07 PM

xeno wrote:

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Libertarius wrote:

xeno wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004, OmegaTime wrote:

No doubt, if some megalomanical bum came into your shop & started upending
desks & computers, you 'll be howling for the cops to crack his head open
if not just out & out shoot him yourself.

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't like it,
he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the tenants.

The preists and temple guards allowed this to happen.

Then, there you go.

Jesus knew these were uninvited profiteers (God did not invite them,
they were not there to worship).

What God? Any crazy man can claim God wants this or a that because God
doesn't evidently exist to dispute it.

===>Jesus, as presented in the stories, appears to have been trying to follow
the prophets, especially Zeachariah, in achieving his goal of becoming the
king "Messiah". Zechariah says the king is to enter Jerusalem on a donkey, so
he sent his men to secure a donkey and marched into Jerusalem as the
"son of David", i.e. the legitimate heir to the throne.
Zechariah also wrote that there will be no more merchants in the Temple
"that day", (("Zechariah 14:21
...in that day there will be no more traders in the house of the Lord of
armies.")
so Jesus decided to start his revolution by chasing out the
merchants.
Zechariah also says that YHWH would descend on the Mount of Olives
and help the Jews fight their enemies, (Zechariah 14:3-4
Then the Lord will go out and make war against those nations,
as he did in the day of the fight....his feet will be on the Mount of Olives...)
so he ordered his men to sell their coats and buy swords,
and marched them up to the Mount of Olives.
He sent his brother Jude ("Judas") to present his declaration
of war to the Romans.
(John 13:27
Then Jesus said to him, Do quickly what you have to do.)
But "God" never showed up, and the Romans simply arrested, tried
and executed Jesus, who died, complaining that his God had
forsaken him. (Mark 15:34
"At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice,
"ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI ?"
which is translated,
"MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME ?") -- L.

This gives me an idea for a screenplay. Thanks.

===>Are you a writer? -- L.
.

User: "OmegaTime"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	12 Dec 2004 08:28:48 AM

xeno wrote:

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't like it,
he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the tenants.

But you pay no heed to Jesus' authority, whereas I do. By my logic,
Jesus because of His divine nature and demonstation of supernatural
miracles, and my own relationship with Christ, His authority superceded
the preists and temple guards.

Then, there you go.

The preists and the temple guards were not fit to wash the feet of
Christ. They boasted of their knowledge of the Mosaic laws. Jesus came
and put common sense to those laws.

What God? Any crazy man can claim God wants this or a that because God
doesn't evidently exist to dispute it.

If you do not pay heed to God, that is your choice as a human. But crazy
men that meet all the prophecies that Jesus did as recorded by the Bible
were not prophesized 500 years before they were born.
1.) Born of a virgin.
2.) Born in Bethlehem.
3.) Pierced for our transgressions.
4.) Born in the blood line of King David.
5.) Crown of thorns.
This list is well over some 110 prophecies, I'll skip naming them all.
At any rate, the odds of any man meeting and fulfilling every prophecy
are infinite. The Jews in their nonacceptance of Christ as Messiah would
not have allowed any false association with the God they believe in. At
the time, they were awed that they in fact had crucified the very God to
which they worshipped.
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	12 Dec 2004 10:48:00 AM

OmegaTime wrote:

xeno wrote:

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't like it,
he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the tenants.

===>The Bible says he was just a man, an INSTRUMENT of God!
ACTS 2:22
"Jesus the Nazarene,
a man attested to you by God
with miracles and wonders and signs
which God performed through Him in your midst".
It was Saul/Paul with his Christos cult that made him into a "God". -- L.
.

User: "OmegaTime"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	12 Dec 2004 06:58:04 PM

Libertarius wrote:

OmegaTime wrote:

xeno wrote:

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't like it,
he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the tenants.

===>The Bible says he was just a man, an INSTRUMENT of God!
ACTS 2:22
"Jesus the Nazarene,
a man attested to you by God
with miracles and wonders and signs
which God performed through Him in your midst".

It was Saul/Paul with his Christos cult that made him into a "God". -- L.

The Bible also says a lot more about Jesus Christ being the Son of Man,
Emmanuel (God is with us), etc... Jesus was a man, in the flesh. As a
man He demonstrated how we should treat our fellow man. He as a man
called on God / His Father to perform great miracles. And God and Him
were one in spirit.
Paul was chosen to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. Of course to us,
Paul would be the connecting character to Christ. Unless you are Jewish.
Paul's conversion to Christianity was instant and miraculous. The man
Saul who persecuted the Christians was suddenly converted. Of course
because Paul spoke to us, we would be the most skeptical of the things
he said.
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	12 Dec 2004 08:28:58 PM

OmegaTime wrote:

Libertarius wrote:

OmegaTime wrote:

xeno wrote:

The merchants were permitted to be in the temple. If Jesus didn't like it,
he should have taken it up with the landlords, not abuse the tenants.

===>The Bible says he was just a man, an INSTRUMENT of God!
ACTS 2:22
"Jesus the Nazarene,
a man attested to you by God
with miracles and wonders and signs
which God performed through Him in your midst".

It was Saul/Paul with his Christos cult that made him into a "God". -- L.

The Bible also says a lot more about Jesus Christ being the Son of Man,
Emmanuel (God is with us), etc... Jesus was a man, in the flesh. As a
man He demonstrated how we should treat our fellow man. He as a man
called on God / His Father to perform great miracles. And God and Him
were one in spirit.

Paul was chosen to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. Of course to us,
Paul would be the connecting character to Christ. Unless you are Jewish.
Paul's conversion to Christianity was instant and miraculous.

===>In fact he did not "convert" to "Christianity", i.e. the cult of
a savior god named CHRISTOS, he INVENTED IT.
The followers of Jesus were NEVER called "Christians".
The followers of Saul/Paul were.

The man
Saul who persecuted the Christians was suddenly converted.

===>"Converted" to WHAT?
His own fantasy god and mystery religion with its CHRISTOS.

Of course
because Paul spoke to us, we would be the most skeptical of the things
he said.

===>He promised his followers that he and they ("we") will be soon
transubstantiated and taken up to heaven, together with their
resurrected relatives.
That never happened. PROOF that the whole thing is a LIE,
as seen by the Ebionite followers of Jesus and his brother
James after Jesus' death. -- L.
.

User: "OmegaTime"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	13 Dec 2004 07:14:09 AM

Libertarius wrote:

Well, believe what you want. Paul did not invent my Christianity. Being
Christian is a term used for those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord
and Savior. I never would have called myself Christian if there weren't
people that labelled me Christian. Much the same as negros in a land
that has no white people would only call each other men. But when a
different skin color is introduced, being called whitey would be an
identifying trait.

===>"Converted" to WHAT?
His own fantasy god and mystery religion with its CHRISTOS.

From a man that sought out followers of Christ to kill them to a
follower of Christ himself who worshiped God and His Son.

So I assume that you have a problem with the Apostle Paul? And his
writings? Paul planned and spent his life leading crusades to bring
people to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul is a very poetic writer. And
I believe his words to be inspired of God. The other Apostles and
Disciples would not allow a false witness among themselves. And to the
very end, they were banned together through the common bond of discipleship.
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	13 Dec 2004 07:44:11 PM

OmegaTime wrote:

Libertarius wrote:

Well, believe what you want.

===>No, that is YOUR game.
I investigate, not believe.

Paul did not invent my Christianity. Being
Christian is a term used for those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord
and Savior.

===>That is what Saul/Paul preached.
There was already a Pagan "lord and savior" worshipped
by others under different names. He invented his own mystery
cult and called that savior god "Christos" (Christ).

I never would have called myself Christian if there weren't
people that labelled me Christian.
Much the same as negros in a land that has no white people would only call
each other men. But when a
different skin color is introduced, being called whitey would be an
identifying trait.

===>GOOD POINT!
In fact the original "Christianos" were called that because they
worshipped a strange new deity called "Christos".

===>"Converted" to WHAT?
His own fantasy god and mystery religion with its CHRISTOS.

From a man that sought out followers of Christ to kill them to a
follower of Christ himself who worshiped God and His Son.

===>He never "sought out followers of Christ to kill them".
He was in the employ of the Rome-appointed high priest and
went after the Messianist Zealots who opposed the Roman
authority. (See (Romans 13).
The followers of Jesus, gathered around his brother James,
were such Zealots.

So I assume that you have a problem with the Apostle Paul?

===>No, I have no "problem" with "Apostle Paul"
or any other religious fanatic.

And his
writings? Paul planned and spent his life leading crusades to bring
people to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

===>FALSE.
He "planned and spent his life leading crusades to bring
people" TO HIS OWN "gospel", i.e his own mystery cult.
He simply attributed his "gospel" to the savior god "Christos" he
worshipped.
(Galatians 1:11-12
I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached
is not something that man made up.
I did not receive it from any man,
nor was I taught it; rather,
I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.")

Paul is a very poetic writer. And
I believe his words to be inspired of God.

===>By his own idea of a Pagan-like savior god.

The other Apostles and
Disciples would not allow a false witness among themselves.

===>They didn't.

And to the
very end, they were banned together through the common bond of discipleship.

===>Where do you pick up such non-historical details?
In fact the two movements, Jewish Messianists and
Pauline Christos worshipers, could not have been farther apart. -- L.
.

User: "OmegaTime"
Title: Re: Jesus was a Loser, Frank. Get over it.	14 Dec 2004 07:59:51 AM

Libertarius wrote:

===>No, that is YOUR game.
I investigate, not believe.

And bias the thoughts you have to come up with the solutions you seek.
If you pretend to be so methodical that everything you decide is based
on investigation, I say BULL. And don't tell me what my games are when
you play your own. Belief is no game. I believe in God (Yahweh), I
believe in Jesus Christ (Yoshua) as Lord and Savior. Therefore to debate
the biblical writings of Paul amount to little more than babble.

So what's your point. Jesus was the Christ as admitted by Yoshua himself
(Matt 23:8). Paul did not create Christ, Jesus was the Christ.

===>GOOD POINT!
In fact the original "Christianos" were called that because they
worshipped a strange new deity called "Christos".

Yoshua (alias Jesus Christ) is the Messiah. He is God's son through a
virgin birth. This is not debatable. For as much "fact" as you provide,
I'll produce an equal measure. I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and
Savior. This is not a pagan deity, this is Emmanuel.

Son, teach it to somebody else. Read Acts and then tell me the same
about Saul. Whether Saul threw the stone, or only pointed to the ones in
which to stone, he sought out the followers of Christ to kill them.
Maybe you should read Romans 13, show me anything in the following text
that substatiates your claim that Paul persecuted Christ followers or
James the brother of Jesus. This is simply not the case. Paul is only
saying follow the law of the land. Don't claim lawlessness in the name
of Christ. Jesus taught the same (Matt 22:17). Here I'll paste it for you:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there
is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by
God. Rom 13:2 So that the one resisting the authority resists the
ordinance of God; and the ones who resist will receive judgment to
themselves. Rom 13:3 For the rulers are not a terror to good works, but
to the bad. And do you desire to be not afraid of the authority? Do the
good, and you shall have praise from it. Rom 13:4 For it is a servant
of God to you for good. For if you practice evil, be afraid, for it does
not bear the sword in vain; for it is a servant of God, a revenger for
wrath on him who does evil. Rom 13:5 Therefore you must be subject, not
only for wrath, but also for conscience' sake. Rom 13:6 For because of
this you also pay taxes. For they are God's servants, always giving
attention to this very thing. Rom 13:7 Therefore giv