Religions > Bible > Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" |
| Date: |
23 Jun 2003 03:11:50 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new |
Update, June 23 2003, one of the entities (recently
referenced by Hershel Shanks [Biblical Archaeology
Review editor] to try to maintain his position that the
James - son of Joseph - brother of Jesus ossuary
inscription was legit) has publicly updated their posi-
tion, as follows:
---
http://www.archaeology.org/magazine.php?page=online/news/patina
---
Excerpt:
The Geological Survey of Israel (GSI), today publicly
clarified its position regarding the authenticity of the
James Ossuary and the Jehoash Inscription.
In a letter sent to Uzi Dahari, deputy director of the Israel
Antiquities Authority (IAA), GSI director Amos Bein states
that its representative to the IAA's committee established
to determine the authenticity of the objects, Avner Ayalon,
determined that the patina covering both the letters and
surface of the Jehoash Inscription, as well as the inscrip-
tion on the James Ossuary, "could not have formed under
natural climactic conditions...that prevailed in the Judea
Mountains during the last 2000 years."
Furthermore, the patina contained in the inscription on the
James Ossuary is "significantly different from the oxygen
isotopic composition in the surface patina of [the ossuary]
and of patina of authentic ossuaries stored in [Jerusalem's]
Rockefeller Museum." An internal GSI committee reviewed
and approved Dr. Ayalon's conclusions.
In Fall 2002, GSI scientists Amnon Rosenfeld and Shimon
Ilani confirmed that the James Ossuary was made of local
stone, and identified the presence of a single patina char-
acteristic of a type that develops in cave environments.
In Spring 2003, Rosenfeld, Ilani, and GSI scientist Michael
Dvoracheck misidentified the Jehoash Inscription as carved
from local sandstone, with a naturally occurring patina. The
stone was later identified by the IAA committee as a meta-
morphic rock originating from Cyprus and points west.
The patina of the James Ossuary inscription was tested
independently by IAA scientific committee members Yuval
Goren (micromorphology) and Ayalon (mass spectrometry).
Both tests independently support the IAA's conclusion that
the Jehoash Inscription and the inscription on the James
Ossuary are forgeries. ...
- - - end excerpt - - -
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¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://www.ghg.net/phf
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
.
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| User: "Glenn Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new |
24 Jun 2003 03:19:34 PM |
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JEWS deciding if a CHRISTIAN artifect is real, interesting, get it yet
?
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:11:50 -0500, "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER"
<phf@ghg.net> wrote:
Update, June 23 2003, one of the entities (recently
referenced by Hershel Shanks [Biblical Archaeology
Review editor] to try to maintain his position that the
James - son of Joseph - brother of Jesus ossuary
inscription was legit) has publicly updated their posi-
tion, as follows:
---
http://www.archaeology.org/magazine.php?page=online/news/patina
---
Excerpt:
The Geological Survey of Israel (GSI), today publicly
clarified its position regarding the authenticity of the
James Ossuary and the Jehoash Inscription.
In a letter sent to Uzi Dahari, deputy director of the Israel
Antiquities Authority (IAA), GSI director Amos Bein states
that its representative to the IAA's committee established
to determine the authenticity of the objects, Avner Ayalon,
determined that the patina covering both the letters and
surface of the Jehoash Inscription, as well as the inscrip-
tion on the James Ossuary, "could not have formed under
natural climactic conditions...that prevailed in the Judea
Mountains during the last 2000 years."
Furthermore, the patina contained in the inscription on the
James Ossuary is "significantly different from the oxygen
isotopic composition in the surface patina of [the ossuary]
and of patina of authentic ossuaries stored in [Jerusalem's]
Rockefeller Museum." An internal GSI committee reviewed
and approved Dr. Ayalon's conclusions.
In Fall 2002, GSI scientists Amnon Rosenfeld and Shimon
Ilani confirmed that the James Ossuary was made of local
stone, and identified the presence of a single patina char-
acteristic of a type that develops in cave environments.
In Spring 2003, Rosenfeld, Ilani, and GSI scientist Michael
Dvoracheck misidentified the Jehoash Inscription as carved
from local sandstone, with a naturally occurring patina. The
stone was later identified by the IAA committee as a meta-
morphic rock originating from Cyprus and points west.
The patina of the James Ossuary inscription was tested
independently by IAA scientific committee members Yuval
Goren (micromorphology) and Ayalon (mass spectrometry).
Both tests independently support the IAA's conclusion that
the Jehoash Inscription and the inscription on the James
Ossuary are forgeries. ...
- - - end excerpt - - -
- - - - - - - - - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://www.ghg.net/phf
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
.
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| User: "Didymos formerly Satans punk-ass bitch" |
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| Title: Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new |
25 Jun 2003 11:29:08 AM |
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"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3ef8b21f.46903793@news.ev1.net...
JEWS deciding if a CHRISTIAN artifect is real, interesting, get it yet
?
Why does that matter? Does the fact of their Jewishness somehow disqualify
them?
How is this ossuary especially "Christian"? Was James, son of Joseph, a
Christian? How do you know that?
Wasn't this ossuary in the hands of a Moslem, who sold it to a Jew? Where
does "Christian" enter into it exactly?
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:11:50 -0500, "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER"
<phf@ghg.net> wrote:
Update, June 23 2003, one of the entities (recently
referenced by Hershel Shanks [Biblical Archaeology
Review editor] to try to maintain his position that the
James - son of Joseph - brother of Jesus ossuary
inscription was legit) has publicly updated their posi-
tion, as follows:
---
http://www.archaeology.org/magazine.php?page=online/news/patina
---
Excerpt:
The Geological Survey of Israel (GSI), today publicly
clarified its position regarding the authenticity of the
James Ossuary and the Jehoash Inscription.
In a letter sent to Uzi Dahari, deputy director of the Israel
Antiquities Authority (IAA), GSI director Amos Bein states
that its representative to the IAA's committee established
to determine the authenticity of the objects, Avner Ayalon,
determined that the patina covering both the letters and
surface of the Jehoash Inscription, as well as the inscrip-
tion on the James Ossuary, "could not have formed under
natural climactic conditions...that prevailed in the Judea
Mountains during the last 2000 years."
Furthermore, the patina contained in the inscription on the
James Ossuary is "significantly different from the oxygen
isotopic composition in the surface patina of [the ossuary]
and of patina of authentic ossuaries stored in [Jerusalem's]
Rockefeller Museum." An internal GSI committee reviewed
and approved Dr. Ayalon's conclusions.
In Fall 2002, GSI scientists Amnon Rosenfeld and Shimon
Ilani confirmed that the James Ossuary was made of local
stone, and identified the presence of a single patina char-
acteristic of a type that develops in cave environments.
In Spring 2003, Rosenfeld, Ilani, and GSI scientist Michael
Dvoracheck misidentified the Jehoash Inscription as carved
from local sandstone, with a naturally occurring patina. The
stone was later identified by the IAA committee as a meta-
morphic rock originating from Cyprus and points west.
The patina of the James Ossuary inscription was tested
independently by IAA scientific committee members Yuval
Goren (micromorphology) and Ayalon (mass spectrometry).
Both tests independently support the IAA's conclusion that
the Jehoash Inscription and the inscription on the James
Ossuary are forgeries. ...
- - - end excerpt - - -
- - - - - - - - - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://www.ghg.net/phf
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new |
25 Jun 2003 04:10:08 PM |
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"Didymos formerly Satan's punk-***** *****" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:o5kKa.11988$C83.1175612@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3ef8b21f.46903793@news.ev1.net...
JEWS deciding if a CHRISTIAN artifect is real, interesting, get it yet
?
Why does that matter? Does the fact of their Jewishness somehow
disqualify
them?
How is this ossuary especially "Christian"? Was James, son of Joseph, a
Christian? How do you know that?
Wasn't this ossuary in the hands of a Moslem, who sold it to a Jew? Where
does "Christian" enter into it exactly?
Tom: Let me see if I can explain it for the "Christians". Assuming all of
these people were actual persons, then James was a Jew, Joseph was a Jew
and Jesus was a Jew. All of the first Christians were Jews! Get over it
"Christians". The Jewish people started Christianity!!
.
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| User: "Glenn Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new |
27 Jun 2003 09:27:45 PM |
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On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:10:08 -0400, "Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Didymos formerly Satan's punk-***** *****" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:o5kKa.11988$C83.1175612@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3ef8b21f.46903793@news.ev1.net...
JEWS deciding if a CHRISTIAN artifect is real, interesting, get it yet
?
Why does that matter? Does the fact of their Jewishness somehow disqualify
them?
How is this ossuary especially "Christian"? Was James, son of Joseph, a
Christian? How do you know that?
Wasn't this ossuary in the hands of a Moslem, who sold it to a Jew? Where
does "Christian" enter into it exactly?
Tom: Let me see if I can explain it for the "Christians". Assuming all of
these people were actual persons, then James was a Jew, Joseph was a Jew
and Jesus was a Jew. All of the first Christians were Jews! Get over it
"Christians". The Jewish people started Christianity!!
Some Jews did, if you thought that I was being "anti-Jew" you are
wrong, as I am a Jew, but Israel is inclined to support Judaism over
Christianity, and for the most part doesn't accept Christ... Think it
over
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| User: "Jessica L. Price" |
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| Title: Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new |
05 Jul 2003 04:53:23 PM |
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"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3efcfc71.41366767@news.ev1.net...
Tom: Let me see if I can explain it for the "Christians". Assuming all of
these people were actual persons, then James was a Jew, Joseph was a Jew
and Jesus was a Jew. All of the first Christians were Jews! Get over it
"Christians". The Jewish people started Christianity!!
Some Jews did, if you thought that I was being "anti-Jew" you are
wrong, as I am a Jew, but Israel is inclined to support Judaism over
Christianity, and for the most part doesn't accept Christ... Think it
over
Yes, but for the most part, they don't need to deny Jesus' existence --
plenty of non-Christians accept that a guy named Jesus may have been born in
Bethlehem. The sticking point is not his existence but whether he was the
Messiah/Son of God. And the box, legitimate or illegitimate, does nothing
to prove that, so I see no compelling reason to suspect the Israelis of an
ulterior motive.
And, just out of curiosity (I'm not trying to disbelieve you or be
confrontational -- I am honestly just asking), if you're Jewish, why does
your user name say "Christian mystic"?
Jessica
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| User: "Jessica L. Price" |
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| Title: Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new |
05 Jul 2003 07:02:42 PM |
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"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3f076145.8186328@news.ev1.net...
On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 16:53:23 -0500, "Jessica L. Price"
<jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote:
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
You confuse being a Jew with Judaism (they are not the same thing) if
you think that a Jew can't be a Christian, most of the original
Christians (before we received that title from unbelievers) were Jews
!
I use "Christian Mystic" in my user name, because thhat is what I
believe myself to be.
Ah. So, ethnically Jewish, religiously Christian, yes? I understand, it's
just that most people I know who are of Jewish descent but converted to
Christianity generally don't refer to themselves as Jews. But hey, if you
can manage to combine them both, that's awesome and more power to you.
Jessica
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| User: "Glenn Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new |
06 Jul 2003 10:23:41 AM |
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On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:02:42 -0500, "Jessica L. Price"
<jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote:
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3f076145.8186328@news.ev1.net...
On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 16:53:23 -0500, "Jessica L. Price"
<jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote:
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
You confuse being a Jew with Judaism (they are not the same thing) if
you think that a Jew can't be a Christian, most of the original
Christians (before we received that title from unbelievers) were Jews
!
I use "Christian Mystic" in my user name, because thhat is what I
believe myself to be.
Ah. So, ethnically Jewish, religiously Christian, yes?
Exactly, see Acts 15, it is permisable to retain our heritage, holy
days (holidays) {in a Christian context, of course}; mysticisms, and
other things, related to our culture, circumcision, Jewish marriage
traditions, bar mitzvahs, and etc. (as long as we do not attempt to
force others to accept such as required for Christianity)
I understand, it's
just that most people I know who are of Jewish descent but converted to
Christianity generally don't refer to themselves as Jews.
Which to me, is a crying shame, kinda like throwing the baby out with
the bath water, and it makes Jesus less than He is, Our Messiah !
You can suggest to your friends that they find a local mashiah based
synogogue (in larger cities, they DO exist !)
But hey, if you
can manage to combine them both, that's awesome and more power to you.
Thanks
Jessica
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new |
12 Jul 2003 04:02:55 PM |
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a jew can not be a christian because of the immense social pressure that will prevent
him from doing so! but yes, a jew can be a christian - then his ethnicity is jewish
and his religion is christian.
On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 16:53:23 -0500, "Jessica L. Price"
<jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote:
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3efcfc71.41366767@news.ev1.net...
<snipped interesting stuff to which I have no response, to get down to
that which I do want to address>
Yes, but for the most part, they don't need to deny Jesus' existence --
plenty of non-Christians accept that a guy named Jesus may have been born in
Bethlehem. The sticking point is not his existence but whether he was the
Messiah/Son of God. And the box, legitimate or illegitimate, does nothing
to prove that, so I see no compelling reason to suspect the Israelis of an
ulterior motive.
And, just out of curiosity (I'm not trying to disbelieve you or be
confrontational -- I am honestly just asking), if you're Jewish, why does
your user name say "Christian mystic"?
You confuse being a Jew with Judaism (they are not the same thing) if
you think that a Jew can't be a Christian, most of the original
Christians (before we received that title from unbelievers) were Jews
!
I use "Christian Mystic" in my user name, because thhat is what I
believe myself to be.
Jessica
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
.
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| User: "Didymos formerly Satans punk-ass bitch" |
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| Title: Re: Israeli Antiquities Authority -- 06/18/2003 -- James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus inscription appears new |
28 Jun 2003 02:02:28 PM |
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On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:11:50 -0500, "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER"
<phf@ghg.net> wrote:
Update, June 23 2003, one of the entities (recently
referenced by Hershel Shanks [Biblical Archaeology
Review editor] to try to maintain his position that the
James - son of Joseph - brother of Jesus ossuary
inscription was legit) has publicly updated their posi-
tion, as follows:
---
http://www.archaeology.org/magazine.php?page=online/news/patina
---
<snip>
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:29:08 GMT, "Didymos formerly Satan's punk-*****
*****" <me@privacy.net> wrote:
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3ef8b21f.46903793@news.ev1.net...
JEWS deciding if a CHRISTIAN artifect is real, interesting, get it yet
?
Why does that matter? Does the fact of their Jewishness somehow
disqualify
them?
How is this ossuary especially "Christian"? Was James, son of Joseph, a
Christian? How do you know that?
Wasn't this ossuary in the hands of a Moslem, who sold it to a Jew?
Where
does "Christian" enter into it exactly?
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3efcfd49.41583089@news.ev1.net...
The question has to do with proving Christ's existence, something
Judaism would prefer not to be proven
May I ask how this ossuary, even if the inscription was authentic, would
prove "Christ's existence"? Wouldn't the modern American equivalent by
something like, "Michael, son of Bill, brother of Bob"? Hardly conclusive
in my opinion, and it does not matter whether a Jew, Christian, or atheist
does the concluding. At best, this would only serve to prove that an
ossuary was constructed and inscribed to indicate it contained the bones of
someone named James whose father was Joseph and had a brother named Jesus.
The probability experts can determine some window of probability that this
was the Jesus later known as Christ. But only if they can obtain a valid
sample of male names in both Judea and Galilee for the early first century.
That I consider to be extremely improbable prospect.
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