Truth-B-Told@webtv.net (Gospel Man)

Re: Jesus says different!

Hello,

Before making other comments, please look at this statement by Jesus
at 1 Jo 2:17,

"The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of
God lives forever." (NIV)

Notice the wording. If you do the will of God you get to 'live
forever'.

Truth-B-Told@webtv.net (Gospel Man)

Re: Jesus says different!

Hello,

Before making other comments, please look at this statement by Jesus
at 1 Jo 2:17,

"The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of
God lives forever." (NIV)

Notice the wording. If you do the will of God you get to 'live
forever'. Now, anyone allegedly suffering eternity in a hellfire
place, are still 'living forever', just not under ideal conditions.
But Jesus didn't say that did he. Based on Jesus' words of truth, then
we could also reword it to say:

'The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does not do the
will of God will not live forever.'

Thus according to Jesus there are two possible outcomes for a person:
living forever, or no existence at all.

For sake of time, I will discuss just your first example below.

Mat 25:46....and these will go away into EVERLASTING punishment, but the
righteous into eternal life.

Yet Jesus also clearly said at Joh 3:36,

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey
the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
(NASB)

Again, we can see Jesus saying that the wicked will "not see life".

So then, what is going on when that translation above says that the
wicked will receive "everlasting punishment"?

Do all translations agree with that wording? Most do, but not all. For
example,

"And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous
ones into everlasting life." (NWT)

A footnote on this Bible for the words "cutting-off" says,

"Lit., "lopping off; pruning." Gr., ko?la·sin. See 1Jo 4:18 ftn.")

And another translation reads:

"And shall go away these into a cutting-off age-lasting; the and just
ones into life age-lasting." (Emphatic Diaglott)

This Diaglott Bible explains the reason for its use of words. It says
in a footnote here:

""Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut
off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to
repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual
from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as
punishment;-hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word.
The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better
with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and
beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the
cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.")

There is a reference at the bottom to 2 Thess. 1:9, which reads,

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the
presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (NASB)

Notice it says here the penalty for the wicked is "eternal
destruction", not 'eternal punishment'. Something 'destroyed' no
longer exists as it once did.

Also, Strongs Concordance shows that the Greek word used there,
"kolasis", is referenced as #2851. And says that
#2851 comes from the Greek word "kalazoo" (spelled "kolazo" by Strong
and listed as Strongs #2849)

The reference work Greek -English Online Bible Lexicon says of #2849,

"2849 kolazw kolazo kol-ad'-zo

from kolos (dwarf); TDNT-3:814,451; v

AV-punish 2; 2

1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished"

Also Vines Greek Dictionary says of #2849,

"Topics: PUNISH
Strong's Number: 2849
Transliterated: kolazo

Text: primarily denotes "to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos,
"docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish"; it is used in the
middle voice in Acts 4:21; passive voice in 2 Pet. 2:9, KJV, "to be
punished" (RV, "under punishment," lit., "being punished"), a
futurative present tense.\"

Thus the above information should at least show you that this
particular Scripture at Mt 25:46 might not really be talking about
everlasting "punishment" at all, since there is scholarly research to
the contrary showing the words "prune" and "cut off" etc, to be
closely associated with that word.


Sincerely, James

**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads

***********************************
Want a Free home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************

Mat 25:41.....Then He will also say to those on the left hand "Depart
from me, you cursed, into the EVERLASTING fire prepared for the devil
and his angels.

Luke 16:23....and being in TORMENTS in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw
Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Rev 20:10....and the devil who deceived them, was cast into the lake of
fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they
will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER.

Truth-B-T...@webtv.net (Gospel Man)
Re: Jesus says different!

Hello,

Before making other comments, please look at this statement by Jesus
at 1 Jo 2:17,

"The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of
God lives forever." (NIV)

Notice the wording. If you do the will of God you get to 'live
forever'. Now, anyone allegedly suffering eternity in a hellfire
place, are still 'living forever', just not under ideal conditions.
But Jesus didn't say that did he. Based on Jesus' words of truth, then
we could also reword it to say:

'The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does not do the
will of God will not live forever.'

Thus according to Jesus there are two possible outcomes for a person:
living forever, or no existence at all.

For sake of time, I will discuss just your first example below.

Mat 25:46....and these will go away into EVERLASTING punishment, but the
righteous into eternal life.

Yet Jesus also clearly said at Joh 3:36,

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey
the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
(NASB)

Again, we can see Jesus saying that the wicked will "not see life".

So then, what is going on when that translation above says that the
wicked will receive "everlasting punishment"?

Do all translations agree with that wording? Most do, but not all. For
example,

"And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous
ones into everlasting life." (NWT)

A footnote on this Bible for the words "cutting-off" says,

"Lit., "lopping off; pruning." Gr., ko?la=B7sin. See 1Jo 4:18 ftn.")

And another translation reads:

"And shall go away these into a cutting-off age-lasting; the and just
ones into life age-lasting." (Emphatic Diaglott)

This Diaglott Bible explains the reason for its use of words. It says
in a footnote here:

""Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut
off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to
repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual
from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as
punishment;-hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word.
The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better
with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and
beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the
cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.")

There is a reference at the bottom to 2 Thess. 1:9, which reads,

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the
presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (NASB)

Notice it says here the penalty for the wicked is "eternal
destruction", not 'eternal punishment'. Something 'destroyed' no
longer exists as it once did.

Also, Strongs Concordance shows that the Greek word used there,
"kolasis", is referenced as #2851. And says that
#2851 comes from the Greek word "kalazoo" (spelled "kolazo" by Strong
and listed as Strongs #2849)

The reference work Greek -English Online Bible Lexicon says of #2849,

"2849 kolazw kolazo kol-ad'-zo

from kolos (dwarf); TDNT-3:814,451; v

AV-punish 2; 2

1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished"

Also Vines Greek Dictionary says of #2849,

"Topics: PUNISH
Strong's Number: 2849
Transliterated: kolazo

Text: primarily denotes "to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos,
"docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish"; it is used in the
middle voice in Acts 4:21; passive voice in 2 Pet. 2:9, KJV, "to be
punished" (RV, "under punishment," lit., "being punished"), a
futurative present tense.\"

Thus the above information should at least show you that this
particular Scripture at Mt 25:46 might not really be talking about
everlasting "punishment" at all, since there is scholarly research to
the contrary showing the words "prune" and "cut off" etc, to be
closely associated with that word. =20

Sincerely, James

**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads

***********************************
Want a Free home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************

Mat 25:41.....Then He will also say to those on the left hand "Depart
from me, you cursed, into the EVERLASTING fire prepared for the devil
and his angels.

Luke 16:23....and being in TORMENTS in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw
Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Rev 20:10....and the devil who deceived them, was cast into the lake of
fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they
will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -