Re: Jesus the Messiah?

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	""
Date:	24 Jan 2008 12:00:03 PM
Object:	Re: Jesus the Messiah?

On Jan 24, 8:55=A0am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

First lets discuss Christianity

A.) Prophecy about uniting the tribes together under one nation

Where does Jesus fulfill this one!

Danny

You just don't get it. Not every Jew, much less everyone else,
believes the lie that you were brainwashed into, namely that the Torah
is to be idolized. We consider THAT a very serious form of idolotry
that falsifies entirely the Jewish religion. The Jewish religion to
us is about the experience of Moses and other sages with the angels of
HaShem, and we don't even believe that HaShem is necessarily JHVH.
HaShem is the true name of the LORD of creation. There is very good
reason within the Torah itself to believe that JHVH is not HaShem.
In other words, just as you have been taught to leave your mind at the
door when you enter synagogue, so we have been taught to put on our
thinking caps when we enter synagogue.
So, we don't believe that Moshiach will be a slave to Torah. We think
you have everything backwards. Moshiach will be able to rewrite Torah
as He sees fit. Moshiach is to be regarded as G-D Himself in person,
and so He has full authority to change the Covenant or negotiate a new
one. Was Jesus, whose Hebrew name is Jehoshua Moshaich, the Jewish
Messiah? I don't know, but I do know this: if He is not the Jewish
Messiah, it is because He stayed too close to the already established
tradition and NOT because He departed too much from it.
What Jews want to forget is Genesis 1. False Jews are fond of saying,
there is no original sin in Judaism, but of course there is - it is
right there in Genesis 1. The rabbis can't lie their way out of it.
Everything subsequent to Genesis 1 is conditioned by it. The Torah is
the story of fallen men and women, who have been exiled from the
Kingdom of God. It is not a pleasant story. It is about delusion and
the struggle to merely survive. There is nothing to be so proud of in
the record of fallen men and women. Humility here is the key.
When Moshiach comes, He cannot not be a fallen man, like Adam. He
must be a member in good standing of the Kingdom of God. He is not
bound by the Torah, because the Torah is a Covenant between HaShem and
fallen men and women. In fact, Jesus seemed to be a little bit too
concerned with fulfilling prophecy. Perhaps, however, that was just
for the sake of the fallen men and women He was ministering to.
The real requirements for Moshiach were known only to Moshiach, not to
fallen men and women. They are not in the Torah. They have to do
with the functional unity of the Godhead. There are many functioning
parts of G-D, and HaShem is only the central personality of the
extended being of G-D. In order to bring about the functional unity
of all the aspects of Godhead, Moshiach must essentially be HaShem.
The proof that He is HaShem is that He can personally assume the
function of any of the various functional parts of G-D. In other
words, He depends on no one other than Himself to conduct the business
of the Creation. No fallen angel can sour the plan, because Moshiach
can assume the proper function of that angel before He fell. This
gives a much deeper meaning to the Shema, and that was proclaimed by
Jesus as the essence of His mission. See Deuteronomy 6:4-5. Hand in
hand with that purpose was to rid Judaism once and for all of its
racism. Leviticus 19:18 was reinterpreted to include everyone, not
just fellow Jewry.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	24 Jan 2008 12:11:57 PM

On Jan 24, 10:00=A0am,

wrote:

On Jan 24, 8:55=A0am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

First lets discuss Christianity

A.) Prophecy about uniting the tribes together under one nation

Where does Jesus fulfill this one!

Danny

You just don't get it. =A0Not every Jew, much less everyone else,
believes the lie that you were brainwashed into, namely that the Torah
is to be idolized. =A0We consider THAT a very serious form of idolotry
that falsifies entirely the Jewish religion. =A0The Jewish religion to
us is about the experience of Moses and other sages with the angels of
HaShem, and we don't even believe that HaShem is necessarily JHVH.
HaShem is the true name of the LORD of creation. =A0There is very good
reason within the Torah itself to believe that JHVH is not HaShem.

In other words, just as you have been taught to leave your mind at the
door when you enter synagogue, so we have been taught to put on our
thinking caps when we enter synagogue.

So, we don't believe that Moshiach will be a slave to Torah. =A0We think
you have everything backwards. =A0Moshiach will be able to rewrite Torah
as He sees fit. =A0Moshiach is to be regarded as G-D Himself in person,
and so He has full authority to change the Covenant or negotiate a new
one. =A0Was Jesus, whose Hebrew name is Jehoshua Moshaich, the Jewish
Messiah? =A0I don't know, but I do know this: =A0if He is not the Jewish
Messiah, it is because He stayed too close to the already established
tradition and NOT because He departed too much from it.

What Jews want to forget is Genesis 1. =A0False Jews are fond of saying,
there is no original sin in Judaism, but of course there is - it is
right there in Genesis 1. =A0The rabbis can't lie their way out of it.
Everything subsequent to Genesis 1 is conditioned by it. =A0The Torah is
the story of fallen men and women, who have been exiled from the
Kingdom of God. =A0It is not a pleasant story. =A0It is about delusion and=
the struggle to merely survive. =A0There is nothing to be so proud of in
the record of fallen men and women. =A0Humility here is the key.

When Moshiach comes, He cannot not be a fallen man, like Adam. =A0He
must be a member in good standing of the Kingdom of God. =A0He is not
bound by the Torah, because the Torah is a Covenant between HaShem and
fallen men and women. =A0In fact, Jesus seemed to be a little bit too
concerned with fulfilling prophecy. =A0Perhaps, however, that was just
for the sake of the fallen men and women He was ministering to.

The real requirements for Moshiach were known only to Moshiach, not to
fallen men and women. =A0They are not in the Torah. =A0They have to do
with the functional unity of the Godhead. =A0There are many functioning
parts of G-D, and HaShem is only the central personality of the
extended being of G-D. =A0In order to bring about the functional unity
of all the aspects of Godhead, Moshiach must essentially be HaShem.
The proof that He is HaShem is that He can personally assume the
function of any of the various functional parts of G-D. =A0In other
words, He depends on no one other than Himself to conduct the business
of the Creation. =A0No fallen angel can sour the plan, because Moshiach
can assume the proper function of that angel before He fell. =A0This
gives a much deeper meaning to the Shema, and that was proclaimed by
Jesus as the essence of His mission. =A0See Deuteronomy 6:4-5. =A0Hand in
hand with that purpose was to rid Judaism once and for all of its
racism. =A0Leviticus 19:18 was reinterpreted to include everyone, not
just fellow Jewry.

I meant to say Genesis 2 in the above, not Genesis 1.
.

User: "Dannyil"
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	24 Jan 2008 01:59:13 PM

On Jan 24, 8:00 pm,

wrote:

On Jan 24, 8:55 am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

First lets discuss Christianity

A.) Prophecy about uniting the tribes together under one nation

Where doesJesusfulfill this one!

Danny

You just don't get it. Not every Jew, much less everyone else,
believes the lie that you were brainwashed into, namely that the Torah
is to be idolized.

1. I first wish to discuss Christianity.
2. The Torah is G-d's word to the Jewish people. I don't idolize the
Torah,
I do what it says, because G-d says to follow it.

We consider THAT a very serious form of idolotry

"We" who is "We" I did not know you speak for all of mankind on this
issue.

that falsifies entirely the Jewish religion. The Jewish religion to
us is about the experience of Moses and other sages with the angels of
HaShem, and we don't even believe that HaShem is necessarily JHVH.
HaShem is the true name of the LORD of creation. There is very good
reason within the Torah itself to believe that JHVH is not HaShem.

I'm very confused. The Torah is what G-d said to the entire Jewish
people
that is approximately 600 000 adult Jewish men, and 2.4 million
women,
children and people not included in the adult Jewish men category.
G-d says explicitly what He wants and does not want. You come along
and make up stuff. Now, who must I believe? You, or what the Torah
says?

In other words, just as you have been taught to leave your mind at the
door when you enter synagogue, so we have been taught to put on our
thinking caps when we enter synagogue.

Insults never get debate anywhere.

So, we don't believe that Moshiach will be a slave to Torah. We think
you have everything backwards.

Who is this "we" you keep referring to?

Moshiach will be able to rewrite Torah

Deuteronomy 4:2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract
from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.
Or if you like NT examples, Matthew 5:17-18.

as He sees fit. Moshiach is to be regarded as G-D Himself in person,
and so He has full authority to change the Covenant or negotiate a new
one.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man,
that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does
he promise and not fulfill?
Deuteronomy 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the Lord
is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. 40
Keep his decrees and commands, which I am giving you today, so that it
may go well with you and your children after you and that you may live
long in the land the Lord your God gives you for all time.

WasJesus, whose Hebrew name is Jehoshua Moshaich, the JewishMessiah?

This is not the question, see the first post.

I don't know,

If you don't know, then let someone, who does know explain.

but I do know this: if He is not the JewishMessiah, it is because He stayed too close to the already established
tradition and NOT because He departed too much from it.

Very confusing, I am afraid, I don't understand this.

What Jews want to forget is Genesis 1. False Jews are fond of saying,
there is no original sin in Judaism, but of course there is - it is
right there in Genesis 1.

It seems that Judaism has not erased Genesis 1 from the Bible.
There is no concept of what Christianity defines as the original sin.
Meaning, Judaism, based on what the text in the Hebrew says, and Oral
Tradition
understand that G-d expects everyone to return to Him. If they return,
the G-d
will forgive them. Does this include any sin? Yes!
In terms of Adam's first mistake, this has been corrected through the
punishments of birth-pangs and death.

The rabbis can't lie their way out of it.

Rabbis don't lie. This is ad hominem.

Everything subsequent to Genesis 1 is conditioned by it. The Torah is
the story of fallen men and women, who have been exiled from the
Kingdom of God.

Actually, Most of the Torah is dedicated to the lives and history of
the Israelites. At best 10 Chapters are dedicated to the rest of
humanity. I think the focus is on the Israelites or Jews if you will.

It is not a pleasant story. It is about delusion and
the struggle to merely survive. There is nothing to be so proud of in
the record of fallen men and women. Humility here is the key.

This seems to be a quotation in "Lost Paradise" by Milton. I'm
sorry,
but Judaism rejects Milton, and his thesis.

When Moshiach comes, He cannot not be a fallen man, like Adam. He
must be a member in good standing of the Kingdom of God.

Where is the source for this. This seems to be your own opinion.

He is not
bound by the Torah, because the Torah is a Covenant between HaShem and
fallen men and women. In fact,Jesusseemed to be a little bit too
concerned with fulfilling prophecy. Perhaps, however, that was just
for the sake of the fallen men and women He was ministering to.

Very confused.
See Deuteronomy 4:33-41. It doesn't say anything about a Messiah that
is not bound by the rules.
Try again.

The real requirements for Moshiach were known only to Moshiach, not to
fallen men and women. They are not in the Torah.

Actually they are. Read Deuteronomy 13:2-6 and 18.

They have to do
with the functional unity of the Godhead. There are many functioning
parts of G-D, and HaShem is only the central personality of the
extended being of G-D. In order to bring about the functional unity
of all the aspects of Godhead, Moshiach must essentially be HaShem.
The proof that He is HaShem is that He can personally assume the
function of any of the various functional parts of G-D.

Again I don't really understand this. Where is this sourced? Some
other text
I'm not aware of?

In other
words, He depends on no one other than Himself to conduct the business
of the Creation. No fallen angel can sour the plan, because Moshiach
can assume the proper function of that angel before He fell. This
gives a much deeper meaning to the Shema, and that was proclaimed byJesusas the essence of His mission. See Deuteronomy 6:4-5. Hand in
hand with that purpose was to rid Judaism once and for all of its
racism. Leviticus 19:18 was reinterpreted to include everyone, not
just fellow Jewry.

Again, the relevance here to the topic is?
Try to stick to the topic. We are discussing Christianity, and
Ezekiel 37.
Danny
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	24 Jan 2008 02:43:21 PM

On Jan 24, 11:59=A0am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 24, 8:00 pm,

wrote:

On Jan 24, 8:55 am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

First lets discuss Christianity

A.) Prophecy about uniting the tribes together under one nation

Where doesJesusfulfill this one!

Danny

You just don't get it. =A0Not every Jew, much less everyone else,
believes the lie that you were brainwashed into, namely that the Torah
is to be idolized.

1. I first wish to discuss Christianity.
2. The Torah is G-d's word to the Jewish people. =A0I don't idolize the
Torah,
I do what it says, because G-d says to follow it.

We consider THAT a very serious form of idolotry

"We" who is "We" I did not know you speak for all of mankind on this
issue.

that falsifies entirely the Jewish religion. =A0The Jewish religion to
us is about the experience of Moses and other sages with the angels of
HaShem, and we don't even believe that HaShem is necessarily JHVH.
HaShem is the true name of the LORD of creation. =A0There is very good
reason within the Torah itself to believe that JHVH is not HaShem.

I'm very confused. =A0The Torah is what G-d said to the entire Jewish
people
that is approximately 600 000 adult Jewish men,

Nonsense. A few hundred at most saw smoke on the mountain. Even
Moses could not see the face of HaShem, but could only see a part of
Him, namely his backside. According to Jewish tradition, Moses alone
received the Torah from the angel of the LORD, who is Michael.

and 2.4 million
women,
children and people not included in the adult Jewish men category.
G-d says explicitly what He wants and does not want. =A0You come along
and make up stuff. =A0Now, who must I believe? You, or what the Torah
says?

Ye have never seen His face, nor known His true Will. It is NOT in
the Torah, because even Moses could not see His face or know His true
Will.

In other words, just as you have been taught to leave your mind at the
door when you enter synagogue, so we have been taught to put on our
thinking caps when we enter synagogue.

Insults never get debate anywhere.

It was no insult. It is an accurate charcterization of our respective
positions. You accept the Torah unquestioningly, and I do not.

So, we don't believe that Moshiach will be a slave to Torah. =A0We think=
you have everything backwards.

Who is this "we" you keep referring to?

Moshiach will be able to rewrite Torah

Deuteronomy 4:2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract
from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.
Or if you like NT examples, Matthew 5:17-18.

I do not accept the Torah as anything but a pack of lies, with a
slight admixture of essential truth. I am interested in ferreting out
the truth and preserving it as part of a new teaching that is the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me G-D.
As for Matthew 5:17-18, you have taken it out of context to deceive
yourself and others. The law that Jesus is referring to is not in the
Torah. It is stated in Matthew 7:12 - Therefore all things whatsoever
ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is
the law and the prophets. This is the law of karma, unknown to this
day to most Jews. If it were known to them, they could not continue
in their racist views, because they would know that racism causes
terrible karma.

as He sees fit. =A0Moshiach is to be regarded as G-D Himself in person,
and so He has full authority to change the Covenant or negotiate a new
one.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man,
that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does
he promise and not fulfill?

I do not accept the Torah unquestioningly, so a quote from the Torah
proves nothing by itself, without a strong argument to back it up of
why that should be so. What argument you give is nonsense. The "God"
of the old testament is a murderous genocidal maniac, far beneath any
half civilized man.

Deuteronomy 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the Lord
is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. 40
Keep his decrees and commands, which I am giving you today, so that it
may go well with you and your children after you and that you may live
long in the land the Lord your God gives you for all time.

Self serving nonsense, which is not borne out by what "God" actually
commands the Jews to do, namely despicable and cowardly acts of racist
genocide.

WasJesus, whose Hebrew name is Jehoshua Moshaich, the JewishMessiah?

This is not the question, see the first post.

I don't know,

If you don't know, then let someone, who does know explain.

but I do know this: =A0if He is not the JewishMessiah, it is because He s=

tayed too close to the already established

tradition and NOT because He departed too much from it.

Very confusing, I am afraid, I don't understand this.

What Jews want to forget is Genesis 1. =A0False Jews are fond of saying,=
there is no original sin in Judaism, but of course there is - it is
right there in Genesis 1.

It seems that Judaism has not erased Genesis 1 from the Bible.
There is no concept of what Christianity defines as the original sin.
Meaning, Judaism, based on what the text in the Hebrew says, and Oral
Tradition
understand that G-d expects everyone to return to Him. If they return,
the G-d
will forgive them. =A0Does this include any sin? Yes!
In terms of Adam's first mistake, this has been corrected through the
punishments of birth-pangs and death.

Of course, I meant Genesis 2, not Genesis 1. I am interested in
this. Why do you believe your last statement? Can you quote even a
passage from the Torah that substantiates that statement? I very much
doubt it.

The rabbis can't lie their way out of it.

Rabbis don't lie. =A0This is ad hominem.

It is not. It is a fact in evidence, from our previous exchanges.

Everything subsequent to Genesis 1 is conditioned by it. =A0The Torah is=
the story of fallen men and women, who have been exiled from the
Kingdom of God.

Actually, Most of the Torah is dedicated to the lives and history of
the Israelites. =A0At best 10 Chapters are dedicated to the rest of
humanity. =A0I think the focus is on the Israelites or Jews if you will.

It is not a pleasant story. =A0It is about delusion and
the struggle to merely survive. =A0There is nothing to be so proud of in=
the record of fallen men and women. =A0Humility here is the key.

This seems to be a quotation in "Lost Paradise" by Milton. =A0I'm
sorry,
but Judaism rejects Milton, and his thesis.

I was not referring to Milton.

When Moshiach comes, He cannot not be a fallen man, like Adam. =A0He
must be a member in good standing of the Kingdom of God.

Where is the source for this. =A0This seems to be your own opinion.

It is the voice of reason. One who is part of the problem cannot be
the solution. It is contingent, however, upon my contention that
there was no redemption from the fall of Adam already in effect. This
is a crucial point of contention. I have asked you for quotes even
from the Torah that support your position.

He is not
bound by the Torah, because the Torah is a Covenant between HaShem and
fallen men and women. =A0In fact,Jesusseemed to be a little bit too
concerned with fulfilling prophecy. =A0Perhaps, however, that was just
for the sake of the fallen men and women He was ministering to.

Very confused.
See Deuteronomy 4:33-41. =A0It doesn't say anything about a Messiah that
is not bound by the rules.
Try again.

I don't have to. I don't accept the Torah unquestioningly, remember?

The real requirements for Moshiach were known only to Moshiach, not to
fallen men and women. =A0They are not in the Torah.

Actually they are. =A0Read Deuteronomy 13:2-6 and 18.

Again, I don't accept the self-serving statements in the Torah
unquestioningly. I am not a one-dimensional man, ala Herbert
Marcuse. You apparently are a one-dimensional man, which means that
you find a "law" to live by that rules out by its very nature ever
discovering anything new or contrary to itself, and so you go round
and round in self-serving self-deception.

They have to do
with the functional unity of the Godhead. =A0There are many functioning
parts of G-D, and HaShem is only the central personality of the
extended being of G-D. =A0In order to bring about the functional unity
of all the aspects of Godhead, Moshiach must essentially be HaShem.
The proof that He is HaShem is that He can personally assume the
function of any of the various functional parts of G-D.

Again I don't really understand this. =A0Where is this sourced? =A0Some
other text
I'm not aware of?

The Heavenly Torah.

In other
words, He depends on no one other than Himself to conduct the business
of the Creation. =A0No fallen angel can sour the plan, because Moshiach
can assume the proper function of that angel before He fell. =A0This
gives a much deeper meaning to the Shema, and that was proclaimed byJesu=

sas the essence of His mission. =A0See Deuteronomy 6:4-5. =A0Hand in

hand with that purpose was to rid Judaism once and for all of its
racism. =A0Leviticus 19:18 was reinterpreted to include everyone, not
just fellow Jewry.

Again, the relevance here to the topic is?

Try to stick to the topic. =A0We are discussing Christianity, and
Ezekiel 37.

No, you picked out some verses arbitrarily from Ezekiel 37 to try to
arrive at a forced conclusion. Ezekiel 37:24 falsifies all of Judaism
as you define it. Thank G-D I believe in a different sort of Judaism.

Danny

User: "Dannyil"
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	25 Jan 2008 06:17:22 AM

For Reference P represents pjmut etc.
D indicates Dannyil
D-

First lets discuss Christianity

A.) Prophecy about uniting the tribes together under one nation

Where doesJesusfulfill this one!

Danny

Clearly, you're not interested in answering the question, but rather
in arguing your position.
I have no time or patience. Lets stick with Ezekiel 37, if not,
please choose a new discussion post
where you can rant and rave all you like about what you want.
P-

You just don't get it. Not every Jew, much less everyone else,
believes the lie that you were brainwashed into, namely that the Torah
is to be idolized.

Call it brainwashing (which is an ad hominem) I challenge you to
practice what you preach, and
face a real orthodox Rabbi and tell him that he is brainwashed.
D-

1. I first wish to discuss Christianity.
2. The Torah is G-d's word to the Jewish people. I don't idolize the
Torah,
I do what it says, because G-d says to follow it.

P-

We consider THAT a very serious form of idolotry

Its idolatrous to do what G-d says? strange?
D-

"We" who is "We" I did not know you speak for all of mankind on this
issue.

This question is not answered. Nonetheless it is off-topic.
P-

Ezekiel is already an established prophet, what he says will happen,
will happen.
He is a true prophet, and therefore, if what he says has not happened
yet, will happen.
This is not false-prophecy, but a prophecy that has yet to be
fulfilled.
D-

I'm very confused. The Torah is what G-d said to the entire Jewish
people
that is approximately 600 000 adult Jewish men,

P-

1. This is factually, statistically and historically inaccurate. I
have a question.
Every major World Religion accepts that the Jews were given the Torah
at Sinai.
I find it remarkable that over thousands of years, the Jews have
remained, with the Torah.
There is no other group in History, that has a claim that over 3
million people witnessed G-d
at top Sinai. If it is a lie, how is that for thousands of years,
people have remained convinced about.
And not just that, Christians and Moslems agree that it happened.
2. Its probable that it did happen. I mean the facts are that every
other religion in the world is based on one person receiving a
revelation. Judaism basis itself on a revelation of 3 million
people. This kind of claim is easily destroyed
if its untrue - no-one would ever believe it. Can you imagine telling
your kids 3500 years ago, "remember G-d spoke to you at Sinai, and he
said do all these laws" they'll say: "nope, sorry, in fact I don't
really want to do this anymore".
3. The fact that we have Jews today that follow the Torah, and that
everyone agrees that G-d gave the Torah to the Jews, shows
conclusively that it must of happened. There is no counter evidence
to the contrary.
4. You don't have to agree with this logic, but remember, in order to
falsify the claim, bring an example of where a particular myth was
created, and convince 3 million people that it happened, and as a
result, they all have to circumcise themselves, leave the land fallow
for a year every 7th year etc. No-one in their right mind would do
it, unless G-d said to them do it.
D-

and 2.4 million
women,
children and people not included in the adult Jewish men category.
G-d says explicitly what He wants and does not want. You come along
and make up stuff. Now, who must I believe? You, or what the Torah
says?

P-

Ye have never seen His face, nor known His true Will. It is NOT in
the Torah, because even Moses could not see His face or know His true
Will.

5. Exodus 33:20 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one
may see me and live." is the correct quote. Nothing to do with
will. Nonetheless, this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. G-
d's will is what the Torah says. The Torah says G-d says to do x. For
reference see Deuteronomy Chapter 4. What G-d wants is what He says
He wants. Also, you misquote the text, and then argue against me with
it. This is cheap.
6. Also, I don't have time to have to search through the text to find
your misquotes, quote the reference correctly.
7. You want to do something else, fine. Do not justify it. Admit
that you're ignoring what the Torah says, and move on.
P-

In other words, just as you have been taught to leave your mind at the
door when you enter synagogue, so we have been taught to put on our
thinking caps when we enter synagogue.

D-

Insults never get debate anywhere.

P-

It was no insult. It is an accurate charcterization of our respective
positions. You accept the Torah unquestioningly, and I do not.

8. Who said anywhere that I accept the Torah unquestioningly. I
question the Torah
everyday. You have to ask the right questions though.
9. If you don't want to accept the Torah, then don't, but then your
comments are meaningless. Why?
The assumption is that Ezekiel 37 is true. It is also assumed that if
Jesus fufilled what it says there in Ezekiel 37 there are sources for
it. If not, refer to Deut 13:2-6, he is a unestablished false prophet

P-

So, we don't believe that Moshiach will be a slave to Torah. We think
you have everything backwards.

10. Believe what you will. I want facts proved from legitimate
sources, not your interpretation of parts of the text you feel are
relevant and parts that you choose to ignore, because they don't fit
in your ideological position. That is called intellectual dishonesty.
The text is as it is, if you wish to use it, then you have to accept
all of it.
D-

Who is this "we" you keep referring to?

P-

Moshiach will be able to rewrite Torah

D-

Deuteronomy 4:2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract
from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.
Or if you like NT examples, Matthew 5:17-18.

P-

See above. point 10.

P-

As for Matthew 5:17-18, you have taken it out of context to deceive
yourself and others.

10. I did not take it out of context, I simply referred to it.
11. My own agenda is irrelevant to the discussion. Ad Hominem.
P- The law thatJesusis referring to is not in the

Torah.

12. You have a position, prove it.
Matthew 5:17 reads: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law
or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
13. The Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible seems to
understand it as the Torah and Prophets. He understands it to mean the
Old Testament.
14. The text also reads the same. It refers to the Torah of the Old
Testament.

It is stated in Matthew 7:12 - Therefore all things whatsoever
ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is
the law and the prophets. This is the law of karma, unknown to this
day to most Jews. If it were known to them, they could not continue
in their racist views, because they would know that racism causes
terrible karma.

15. Matthew 7:12 reads: So in everything, do to others what you would
have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
16. This is the NIV translation. Frankly, I don't understand the
KJV. It makes little sense. The text reads here that what Jesus was
doing is a summation of the Torah, not that it is the Torah.
17. There is no mention of Karma, don't know what you mean by that.
P-

as He sees fit. Moshiach is to be regarded as G-D Himself in person,
and so He has full authority to change the Covenant or negotiate a new
one.

18. Where you get this one from is beyond me. Jesus never said he was
god, he said he is the *son of* G-d

D-

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man,
that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does
he promise and not fulfill?

P-
I do not accept the Torah unquestioningly, so a quote from the Torah

proves nothing by itself, without a strong argument to back it up of
why that should be so. What argument you give is nonsense. The "God"
of the old testament is a murderous genocidal maniac, far beneath any
half civilized man.

19. You don't like the quote, and therefore avoid the question.
Forget your personal views for a second. Lets assume that the text is
as it is, how does Numbers 23:19 apply to you.
D-

P-

Self serving nonsense, which is not borne out by what "God" actually
commands the Jews to do, namely despicable and cowardly acts of racist
genocide.

20. Antisemitism. Ad Hominem.
You hate Jews.

D-

WasJesus, whose Hebrew name is Jehoshua Moshaich, the JewishMessiah?

D-

This is not the question, see the first post.

P-

I don't know,

D-

If you don't know, then let someone, who does know explain.

P-

but I do know this: if He is not the JewishMessiah, it is because He stayed too close to the already established
tradition and NOT because He departed too much from it.

D-

Very confusing, I am afraid, I don't understand this.

P-

What Jews want to forget is Genesis 1. False Jews are fond of saying,
there is no original sin in Judaism, but of course there is - it is
right there in Genesis 1.

D-

P-

21. But you have a position that rejects the Torah as true. If so,
who cares about Genesis 1, Genesis 2, its all a load of rubbish
according to you. Lets get real, you're making everything up as you
go along, to justify beliefs you formulated, to answer up difficulties
you had emotionally - such as where was G-d in my life etc.
22. I see that the text does not mention one word about an original
sin. It moves on - people die and give birth. Its over. In fact I
see holy individuals don't even die. That means G-d forgives, and
uses the punishment as a way of fixing up what went wrong.
23. I see that, since the issue is not brought up again.
P-

The rabbis can't lie their way out of it.

D-

Rabbis don't lie. This is ad hominem.

P-

It is not. It is a fact in evidence, from our previous exchanges.

24. Who said I'm a Rabbi. So far, you've made the same statement over
and over. Just because you say it over and over does not make it
true. In fact, its derogatory, insulting and antisemitic. See 21.

P-

Everything subsequent to Genesis 1 is conditioned by it. The Torah is
the story of fallen men and women, who have been exiled from the
Kingdom of God.

22. You then agree with this.
P-

It is not a pleasant story. It is about delusion and
the struggle to merely survive. There is nothing to be so proud of in
the record of fallen men and women. Humility here is the key.

D-

This seems to be a quotation in "Lost Paradise" by Milton. I'm
sorry,
but Judaism rejects Milton, and his thesis.

P-

I was not referring to Milton.

24. It seems like it. Have you read "Paradise Lost" I think you'll
find it enjoyable.

P-

When Moshiach comes, He cannot not be a fallen man, like Adam. He
must be a member in good standing of the Kingdom of God.

D-

Where is the source for this. This seems to be your own opinion.

P-

25. Reason is not a source, it is a basis for logic. What you
presented is not reasonable. Visit an atheist and he will tell you it
is not logical that there is even a concept of Messiah. In fact, most
Pagan societies do not have this concept. Therefore, for you to prove
anything about the Messiah has to be textual.
P-

You're putting in emotions, feelings, and thoughts into people that is
not in the text.
Try again.

D-

Very confused.
See Deuteronomy 4:33-41. It doesn't say anything about aMessiahthat
is not bound by the rules.
Try again.

P-

I don't have to. I don't accept the Torah unquestioningly, remember?

Right, so stop trying to bash me, assume my position and attack me
from within.

The real requirements for Moshiach were known only to Moshiach, not to
fallen men and women. They are not in the Torah.

D-

Actually they are. Read Deuteronomy 13:2-6 and 18.

P-

I live by logic. If you tell me I need a bank account, and I go to
the bank, and they say you need a social security no. I don't say to
them: "you're serving the government that created you, you're
brainwashed one-dimensional people that live by rules, and you're
deceived" Why? Because I assume that the bank needs this
information, and follows the rules to make sure that everyone is
protected, and looked after. Same here, we follow rules all over the
world, to maintain stability, social order etc. It is a necessary
component of the world.
In fact, there are rules even in biology.
Your heart pumps blood gallons all over the body. Imagine your heart
says: "I am a servant to the brain, I am one-dimensional, and now I am
going to rebel, and do my own thing, because that proves I'm not a
servant." You'll die. Why? Rules maintain structure and order. The
Torah is a spiritual rule book. I follow the rules to maintain
spiritual order. That is logical.

D-

Again I don't really understand this. Where is this sourced? Some
other text
I'm not aware of?

The Heavenly Torah.

I'm sorry, this is incomprehensible.

P-

I'm sorry, this is incomprehensible.
Again this post was so off topic it is unreal.
If you're not prepared to stay on topic, I'm not responding.
Try again. Ezekiel 37 prophecies. have a look at verses 19 to the
end. They're clear, precise and express what the end of days will
look like.
Judaism is not racist. There are black Jews, white Jews Jews from all
over the world.
Judaism does not tolerate idolatry, as do most other major world
religions - take for example
Christianity, and Islam. If you want to be part of Judaism you have
to accept the rules. If you want to have a bank account, or apply for
visa you have to follow the rules. You can't say to the bank - you're
racist against people with no social security no. Because it is a
necessary condition. to be part of the group.
D-

Again, the relevance here to the topic is?

Try to stick to the topic. We are discussing Christianity, and
Ezekiel 37.

P-

Its not arbitrary at all. In fact you should read all of it.
I never defined Judaism
The topic, if you recall is on CHRISTIANITY.
Try again, for the last time.
Danny

User: ""
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	25 Jan 2008 07:57:13 AM

On Jan 25, 4:17=A0am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

For Reference P represents pjmut etc.
D indicates Dannyil

D-

First lets discuss Christianity

A.) Prophecy about uniting the tribes together under one nation

Where doesJesusfulfill this one!

Danny

Clearly, you're not interested in answering the question, but rather
in arguing your position.
I have no time or patience. =A0Lets stick with Ezekiel 37, if not,
please choose a new discussion post
where you can rant and rave all you like about what you want.

P-

You just don't get it. =A0Not every Jew, much less everyone else,
believes the lie that you were brainwashed into, namely that the Tor=

is to be idolized.

Call it brainwashing (which is an ad hominem) I challenge you to
practice what you preach, and
face a real orthodox Rabbi and tell him that he is brainwashed.

D-

1. I first wish to discuss Christianity.
2. The Torah is G-d's word to the Jewish people. =A0I don't idolize th=

Torah,
I do what it says, because G-d says to follow it.

P-

We consider THAT a very serious form of idolotry

Its idolatrous to do what G-d says? strange?

D-

"We" who is "We" I did not know you speak for all of mankind on this
issue.

This question is not answered. =A0Nonetheless it is off-topic.

P-

that falsifies entirely the Jewish religion. =A0The Jewish religion =

us is about the experience of Moses and other sages with the angels =

HaShem, and we don't even believe that HaShem is necessarily JHVH.
HaShem is the true name of the LORD of creation. =A0There is very go=

reason within the Torah itself to believe that JHVH is not HaShem.

I'm very confused. =A0The Torah is what G-d said to the entire Jewish
people
that is approximately 600 000 adult Jewish men,

P-

Nonsense. =A0A few hundred at most saw smoke on the mountain. =A0Even
Moses could not see the face of HaShem, but could only see a part of
Him, namely his backside. =A0According to Jewish tradition, Moses alone
received the Torah from the angel of the LORD, who is Michael.

1. This is factually, statistically and historically inaccurate. =A0I
have a question.
Every major World Religion accepts that the Jews were given the Torah
at Sinai.
I find it remarkable that over thousands of years, the Jews have
remained, with the Torah.
There is no other group in History, that has a claim that over 3
million people witnessed G-d
at top Sinai. =A0If it is a lie, how is that for thousands of years,
people have remained convinced about.
And not just that, Christians and Moslems agree that it happened.

2. Its probable that it did happen. =A0I mean the facts are that every
other religion in the world is based on one person receiving a
revelation. =A0Judaism basis itself on a revelation of 3 million
people. =A0This kind of claim is easily destroyed
if its untrue - no-one would ever believe it. =A0Can you imagine telling
your kids 3500 years ago, "remember G-d spoke to you at Sinai, and he
said do all these laws" they'll say: "nope, sorry, in fact I don't
really want to do this anymore".

3. The fact that we have Jews today that follow the Torah, and that
everyone agrees that G-d gave the Torah to the Jews, shows
conclusively that it must of happened. =A0There is no counter evidence
to the contrary.

4. You don't have to agree with this logic, but remember, in order to
falsify the claim, bring an example of where a particular myth was
created, and convince 3 million people that it happened, and as a
result, they all have to circumcise themselves, leave the land fallow
for a year every 7th year etc. =A0No-one in their right mind would do
it, unless G-d said to them do it.

D-

and 2.4 million
women,
children and people not included in the adult Jewish men category.
G-d says explicitly what He wants and does not want. =A0You come along=
and make up stuff. =A0Now, who must I believe? You, or what the Torah
says?

P-

Ye have never seen His face, nor known His true Will. =A0It is NOT in
the Torah, because even Moses could not see His face or know His true
Will.

5. Exodus 33:20 "But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one
may see me and live." =A0is the correct quote. =A0Nothing to do with
will. =A0Nonetheless, this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. =A0G-
d's will is what the Torah says. The Torah says G-d says to do x. =A0For
reference see Deuteronomy Chapter 4. =A0What G-d wants is what He says
He wants. =A0Also, you misquote the text, and then argue against me with
it. =A0This is cheap.

6. Also, I don't have time to have to search through the text to find
your misquotes, quote the reference correctly.

7. You want to do something else, fine. =A0Do not justify it. =A0Admit
that you're ignoring what the Torah says, and move on.

P-

In other words, just as you have been taught to leave your mind at t=

door when you enter synagogue, so we have been taught to put on our
thinking caps when we enter synagogue.

D-

Insults never get debate anywhere.

P-

It was no insult. =A0It is an accurate charcterization of our respective=
positions. =A0You accept the Torah unquestioningly, and I do not.

8. Who said anywhere that I accept the Torah unquestioningly. =A0I
question the Torah
everyday. =A0You have to ask the right questions though.

9. If you don't want to accept the Torah, then don't, but then your
comments are meaningless. =A0Why?
The assumption is that Ezekiel 37 is true. =A0It is also assumed that if
Jesus fufilled what it says there in Ezekiel 37 there are sources for
it. =A0If not, refer to Deut 13:2-6, he is a unestablished false prophet

P-

So, we don't believe that Moshiach will be a slave to Torah. =A0We t=

hink

you have everything backwards.

10. Believe what you will. =A0I want facts proved from legitimate
sources, not your interpretation of parts of the text you feel are
relevant and parts that you choose to ignore, because they don't fit
in your ideological position. =A0That is called intellectual dishonesty.
The text is as it is, if you wish to use it, then you have to accept
all of it.

D-

Who is this "we" you keep referring to?

P-

Moshiach will be able to rewrite Torah

D-

Deuteronomy 4:2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract
from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.
Or if you like NT examples, Matthew 5:17-18.

P-

I do not accept the Torah as anything but a pack of lies, with a
slight admixture of essential truth. =A0I am interested in ferreting out=
the truth and preserving it as part of a new teaching that is the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me G-D.

See above. point 10.

P-

As for Matthew 5:17-18, you have taken it out of context to deceive
yourself and others.

10. I did not take it out of context, I simply referred to it.
11. My own agenda is irrelevant to the discussion. =A0Ad Hominem.

P- The law thatJesusis referring to is not in the

Torah.

12. You have a position, prove it.
Matthew 5:17 reads: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law
or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

13. The Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible seems to
understand it as the Torah and Prophets. He understands it to mean the
Old Testament.

14. The text also reads the same. =A0It refers to the Torah of the Old
Testament.

It is stated in Matthew 7:12 - Therefore all things whatsoever
ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is
the law and the prophets. =A0This is the law of karma, unknown to this
day to most Jews. =A0If it were known to them, they could not continue
in their racist views, because they would know that racism causes
terrible karma.

15. Matthew 7:12 reads: So in everything, do to others what you would
have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

16. This is the NIV translation. =A0Frankly, I don't understand the
KJV. =A0It makes little sense. =A0The text reads here that what Jesus was
doing is a summation of the Torah, not that it is the Torah.

17. There is no mention of Karma, don't know what you mean by that.

P-

as He sees fit. =A0Moshiach is to be regarded as G-D Himself in pers=

on,

and so He has full authority to change the Covenant or negotiate a n=

one.

18. Where you get this one from is beyond me. =A0Jesus never said he was
god, he said he is the *son of* G-d

D-

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man,
that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does
he promise and not fulfill?

P-
I do not accept the Torah unquestioningly, so a quote from the Torah

proves nothing by itself, without a strong argument to back it up of
why that should be so. =A0What argument you give is nonsense. =A0The "Go=

of the old testament is a murderous genocidal maniac, far beneath any
half civilized man.

19. You don't like the quote, and therefore avoid the question.
Forget your personal views for a second. Lets assume that the text is
as it is, how does Numbers 23:19 apply to you.

D-

Deuteronomy 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the Lord
is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. 40
Keep his decrees and commands, which I am giving you today, so that it=
may go well with you and your children after you and that you may live=
long in the land the Lord your God gives you for all time.

P-

Self serving nonsense, which is not borne out by what "God" actually
commands the Jews to do, namely despicable and cowardly acts of racist
genocide.

20. Antisemitism. Ad Hominem.
You hate Jews.

D-

WasJesus, whose Hebrew name is Jehoshua Moshaich, the JewishMessiah?

D-

This is not the question, see the first post.

P-

I don't know,

D-

If you don't know, then let someone, who does know explain.

P-

but I do know this: =A0if He is not the JewishMessiah, it is because =

He stayed too close to the already established

tradition and NOT because He departed too much from it.

D-

Very confusing, I am afraid, I don't understand this.

P-

What Jews want to forget is Genesis 1. =A0False Jews are fond of say=

ing,

there is no original sin in Judaism, but of course there is - it is
right there in Genesis 1.

D-

It seems that Judaism has not erased Genesis 1 from the Bible.
There is no concept of what Christianity defines as the original sin.
Meaning, Judaism, based on what the text in the Hebrew says, and Oral
Tradition
understand that G-d expects everyone to return to Him. If they return,=
the G-d
will forgive them. =A0Does this include any sin? Yes!
In terms of Adam's first mistake, this has been corrected through the
punishments of birth-pangs and death.

P-

Of course, I meant Genesis 2, not Genesis 1. =A0I am interested in
this. =A0Why do you believe your last statement? =A0Can you quote even a=
passage from the Torah that substantiates that statement? =A0I very much=
doubt it.

21. But you have a position that rejects the Torah as true. =A0If so,
who cares about Genesis 1, Genesis 2, its all a load of rubbish
according to you. =A0Lets get real, you're making everything up as you
go along, to justify beliefs you formulated, to answer up difficulties
you had emotionally - such as where was G-d in my life etc.

22. I see that the text does not mention one word about an original
sin. =A0It moves on - people die and give birth. =A0Its over. =A0In fact I=
see holy individuals don't even die. =A0That means G-d forgives, and
uses the punishment as a way of fixing up what went wrong.

23. I see that, since the issue is not brought up again.

P-

The rabbis can't lie their way out of it.

D-

Rabbis don't lie. =A0This is ad hominem.

P-

It is not. =A0It is a fact in evidence, from our previous exchanges.

24. Who said I'm a Rabbi. =A0So far, you've made the same statement over
and over. =A0Just because you say it over and over does not make it
true. =A0In fact, its derogatory, insulting and antisemitic. =A0See 21.

P-

Everything subsequent to Genesis 1 is conditioned by it. =A0The Tora=

h is

the story of fallen men and women, who have been exiled from the
Kingdom of God.

22. You then agree with this.

P-

It is not a pleasant story. =A0It is about delusion and
the struggle to merely survive. =A0There is nothing to be so proud o=

f in

the record of fallen men and women. =A0Humility here is the key.

D-

This seems to be a quotation in "Lost Paradise" by Milton. =A0I'm
sorry,
but Judaism rejects Milton, and his thesis.

P-

I was not referring to Milton.

24. It seems like it. =A0Have you read "Paradise Lost" I think you'll
find it enjoyable.

P-

When Moshiach comes, He cannot not be a fallen man, like Adam. =A0He=
must be a member in good standing of the Kingdom of God.

D-

Where is the source for this. =A0This seems to be your own opinion.

P-

It is the voice of reason. =A0One who is part of the problem cannot be
the solution. =A0It is contingent, however, upon my contention that
there was no redemption from the fall of Adam already in effect. =A0This=
is a crucial point of contention. =A0I have asked you for quotes even
from the Torah that support your position.

25. =A0Reason is not a source, it is a basis for logic. =A0What you
presented is not reasonable. =A0Visit an atheist and he will tell you it
is not logical that there is even a concept of Messiah. =A0In fact, most
Pagan societies do not have this concept. =A0Therefore, for you to prove
anything about the Messiah has to be textual.

P-

He is not
bound by the Torah, because the Torah is a Covenant between HaShem a=

fallen men and women. =A0In fact,Jesusseemed to be a little bit too
concerned with fulfilling prophecy. =A0Perhaps, however, that was ju=

for the sake of the fallen men and women He was ministering to.

You're putting in emotions, feelings, and thoughts into people that is
not in the text.
Try again.

D-

Very confused.
See Deuteronomy 4:33-41. =A0It doesn't say anything about aMessiahthat=
is not bound by the rules.
Try again.

P-

I don't have to. =A0I don't accept the Torah unquestioningly, remember?

Right, so stop trying to bash me, assume my position and attack me
from within.

The real requirements for Moshiach were known only to Moshiach, not =

fallen men and women. =A0They are not in the Torah.

D-

Actually they are. =A0Read Deuteronomy 13:2-6 and 18.

P-

Again, I don't accept the self-serving statements in the Torah
unquestioningly. =A0I am not a one-dimensional man, ala Herbert
Marcuse. =A0You apparently are a one-dimensional man, which means that
you find a "law" to live by that rules out by its very nature ever
discovering anything new or contrary to itself, and so you go round
and round in self-serving self-deception.

I live by logic. =A0If you tell me I need a bank account, and I go to
the bank, and they say you need a social security no. =A0I don't say to
them: "you're serving the government that created you, you're
brainwashed one-dimensional people that live by rules, and you're
deceived" =A0Why? =A0Because I assume that the bank needs this
information, and follows the rules to make sure that everyone is
protected, and looked after. =A0Same here, we follow rules all over the
world, to maintain stability, social order etc. =A0It is a necessary
component of the world.

In fact, there are rules even in biology.

Your heart pumps blood gallons all over the body. =A0Imagine your heart
says: "I am a servant to the brain, I am one-dimensional, and now I am
going to rebel, and do my own thing, because that proves I'm not a
servant." =A0You'll die. =A0Why? =A0Rules maintain structure and order. =

=A0The

Torah is a spiritual rule book. =A0I follow the rules to maintain
spiritual order. =A0That is logical.

They have to do
with the functional unity of the Godhead. =A0There are many function=

ing

parts of G-D, and HaShem is only the central personality of the
extended being of G-D. =A0In order to bring about the functional uni=

of all the aspects of Godhead, Moshiach must essentially be HaShem.
The proof that He is HaShem is that He can personally assume the
function of any of the various functional parts of G-D.

D-

Again I don't really understand this. =A0Where is this sourced? =A0Som=

other text
I'm not aware of?

The Heavenly Torah.

I'm sorry, this is incomprehensible.

P-

In other
words, He depends on no one other than Himself to conduct the busine=

of the Creation. =A0No fallen angel can sour the plan, because Moshi=

ach

can assume the proper function of that angel before He fell. =A0This=
gives a much deeper meaning to the Shema, and that was proclaimed by=

Jesusas the essence of His mission. =A0See Deuteronomy 6:4-5. =A0Hand in

hand with that purpose was to rid Judaism once and for all of its
racism. =A0Leviticus 19:18 was reinterpreted to include everyone, no=

just fellow Jewry.

I'm sorry, this is incomprehensible.
Again this post was so off topic it is unreal.
If you're not prepared to stay on topic, I'm not responding.

Try again. =A0Ezekiel 37 prophecies. =A0have a look at verses 19 to the
end. =A0They're clear, precise and express what the end of days will
look like.

Judaism is not racist. =A0There are black Jews, white Jews Jews from all
over the world.
Judaism does not tolerate idolatry, as do most other major world
religions - take for example
Christianity, and Islam. =A0If you want to be part of Judaism you have
to accept the rules. =A0If you want to have a bank account, or apply for
visa you have to follow the rules. =A0You can't say to the bank - you're
racist against people with no social security no. =A0Because it is a
necessary condition. to be part of the group.

D-> > Again, the relevance here to the topic is?

Try to stick to the topic. =A0We are discussing Christianity, and
Ezekiel 37.

P-

No, you picked out some verses arbitrarily from Ezekiel 37 to try to
arrive at a forced conclusion. =A0Ezekiel 37:24 falsifies all of Judaism=
as you define it. =A0Thank G-D I believe in a different sort of Judaism.=

Its not arbitrary at all. =A0In fact you should read all of it.
I never defined Judaism
The topic, if you recall is on CHRISTIANITY.

Try again, for the last time.

Danny

Your response to Matthew 7:12 convinces me that we cannot have a
serious discussion, because we cannot even agree on a text. I know
nothing about NIV. I do know something about KJV and have reasons for
believing that it was inspired by G-D. You believe in the Torah as an
absolute authorority, and want to use it as such in our discussion,
whereas I absolutely reject it as that. Jesus said to the hypocrites
like you:
Matthew (KJV):
5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of
me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent,
him ye believe not.
5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.
5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
5:41 I receive not honour from men.
5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
In 5:37, Jesus is telling you that you are worshipping a false G-D.
The true G-D you have never seen nor heard. You have not the word of
the true G-D abiding in you. You believe in the Torah as an absolute
authority, but the Torah contradicts itself, and you lie endlessly
about your own Torah to try to avoid the contradictions, such as
Genesis 18 or Ezekiel 37:24 (which will never happen and you know
it). In fact, the Torah examined closely reveals the LORDship of
JHVSA, Jehoshua Moshaich, whom you are determined to reject. You
depend on honor from men, but you love not the true G-D, because you
are as ignorant of Him as any other atheist or idoloter. Indeed you
idolize the Torah, which is just a wall of words intended to brainwash
those who are susceptible to it. Many are, but there will always be
some who are not. Read George Orwell. You call us antisemitic for
seeing through your lies, but that is just a bad joke. In fact, we
are the true Jews and you are antisemitic in the real sense of the
word. In short, you are a case of arrested development. You stopped
growing spiritually the day you decided to accept the Torah as the
absolute authority in life. Why look further? You never found G-D,
but just a bad reflection of Him in a dark and broken mirror. You
would sell your false G-D to the whole world. Perhaps it will buy
into your lies, perhaps it will not, but those of us who know the
truth will never buy into your lies and we will live forever, so you
will have a growing eternal witness to your lies and iniquity.
.

User: "Dannyil"
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	26 Jan 2008 01:22:37 PM

Both texts whether the KJV, NIV or any other english text are
seriously flawed
It is a misnomer to consider an English text or any other translation
of the original to be 'inspired'. G-d spoke in Hebrew.
That was His language of choice. For all questions of semantics, you
have to refer to the original Hebrew.
In the NT, that would be Greek.
I don't believe you understand the KJV. If you wish to use it, you
have to explain it.

You believe in the Torah as an
absolute authorority, and want to use it as such in our discussion,
whereas I absolutely reject it as that. Jesus said to the hypocrites
like you:

I am welcome to believe any position I want. You have yet to prove me
wrong.
You resort to ad hominem, which the text happens to repeat.

Matthew (KJV):

5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of
me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Funny, because at no time did there issue forth a heavenly voice
saying to all of Israel
Like it did at Mount Sinai, where 3 million people stood and
acknowledged Moses as the
messenger sent by G-d.
Even the NT admits that.
Shabbatai Tzvi a False Messiah in the 17th Century had more followers,
than Jesus.

5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent,
him ye believe not.

I don't believe in false prophets who did not perform any of the
foretold prophecies in Ezekiel 37.
See Deut 13.2-6, Deut 18.

5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.

I have, and guess what I found - Ezekiel 37, Deut. 13.2-6 and 18.
And they do apply to you, Ezekiel 37 did happen, therefore Jesus must
be applied to Deut 13.2-6.
I find something interesting. After the terrible destruction of the
Temple in approximately 68-70 CE.
Not one group survives except for the Rabbis. Christianity as a
religion for the gentile masses, begins
over 40 years after Jesus is allegedly killed, created by a person by
the name of Paul.
Every other Jewish sect is wiped out, except for the Rabbis.
At a period of time, when the Jews are at their lowest, and Rome is at
its highest.

5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I personally like to deal with G-d Himself, not through
intermediaries.
this is a foreign idea, not a Jewish one.

5:41 I receive not honour from men.

What does honor have to do with anything?

5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Great way of rebuking someone you don't even know.

In 5:37, Jesus is telling you that you are worshipping a false G-D.

You don't even know me, and have the audacity and gall to tell me who
I worship!

The true G-D you have never seen nor heard. You have not the word of
the true G-D abiding in you. You believe in the Torah as an absolute
authority,

That maybe true. Does it make a difference? No. You still have not
answered the questions.

but the Torah contradicts itself,

No it does not. Every contradiction maybe answered logically.
In fact there is a book out, it is available in many university book
shops, and Jewish bookstores
its called Chumash with Rashi. Rashi the famous biblical
commentator,
goes through every verse, and points out every grammatical, and
logical problem and answers them all up.

and you lie endlessly

I don't lie. What I have said is not contradictory to my position.

about your own Torah to try to avoid the contradictions, such as
Genesis 18

You have not brought up Genesis 18 until now, Genesis 18 is
not contradictory.
Nonetheless you have not proved anything.
I asked you to assume my position, and attack me from within .
You have not done so, which means you actually can't prove me wrong.
It is therefore intellectually dishonest and an ad hominem to call me
a liar,
when you have not even proved it, but simply assumed it, based on your
preconceived
perception of Rabbis, the Torah, and me.

or Ezekiel 37:24 (which will never happen and you know
it).

How do you know Eze. 37:24 will never happen, you're a prophet right?
I'm sorry, but I have more faith in Ezekiel than you. Ezekiel is an
established Prophet
Who G-d Himself spoke to. In fact, even Christians and Muslims agree
to that.
Now I must listen to you, where I don't think many people agree that
you're a prophet?

In fact, the Torah examined closely reveals the LORDship of
JHVSA, Jehoshua Moshaich, whom you are determined to reject.

The Torah does not mention The anointed chosen servant of G-d once.
In fact, King David, King Solomon, Ruth etc. are not mentioned at all
explicitly. By Torah I mean the Five-books of Moses.

You depend on honor from men, but you love not the true G-D, because you
are as ignorant of Him as any other atheist or idoloter.

Ad hominem what you say I believe is again, irrelevant, you have yet
to prove your position.

Indeed you
idolize the Torah, which is just a wall of words intended to brainwash
those who are susceptible to it. Many are, but there will always be
some who are not.

I'm not brainwashing anyone. I simply had a question that need
answering
so far, no one has even come close to answering it.

Read George Orwell.

Which one, Animal Farm?

You call us antisemitic for
seeing through your lies, but that is just a bad joke. In fact, we
are the true Jews and you are antisemitic in the real sense of the
word.

I called you antisemitic, since you repeatedly bash Rabbis you have
not even met,
never mind read. Do me a favor and go up to one, and tell him he is
antisemitic.
words are cheap, opinions are free. In Judaism, actions count and
deeds are what determine a person.

In short, you are a case of arrested development. You stopped
growing spiritually the day you decided to accept the Torah as the
absolute authority in life.

Funny, you seem to know so much about me and you're not even a
prophet.
Ad hominem. BTW, how is my spiritual growth relevant to the topic?

Why look further? You never found G-D,

So what, why do you care what I have or have not found.

but just a bad reflection of Him in a dark and broken mirror. You
would sell your false G-D to the whole world. Perhaps it will buy
into your lies, perhaps it will not, but those of us who know the
truth will never buy into your lies and we will live forever, so you
will have a growing eternal witness to your lies and iniquity.

Nice speech. But again, ad hominem. I believe that G-d loves
everyone
no matter what. But He has a spiritual rule book to follow, which
is a logical
progression on how the world runs. Everything else runs on a set of
rules - biology,
banking, living, etc. there are rules. If you want to be part of a
group you have to follow the rules
G-d gave His Torah to the Jews, which everyone accepts as true.
The question is are you following the rules or not, for that
determines who you are.
Just like a social security no. determines that you're part of the
American social-security system.
to be part of the system, you follow the rules that the government
lays down. You don't follow the rules,
you're not part of the system and you have no number, or you lose it.
Danny.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	26 Jan 2008 02:30:23 PM

On Jan 26, 11:22=A0am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

Your response to Matthew 7:12 convinces me that we cannot have a
serious discussion, because we cannot even agree on a text. =A0I know
nothing about NIV. =A0I do know something about KJV and have reasons for=
believing that it was inspired by G-D.

Both texts whether the KJV, NIV or any other english text are
seriously flawed
It is a misnomer to consider an English text or any other translation
of the original to be 'inspired'. G-d spoke in Hebrew.
That was His language of choice. =A0For all questions of semantics, you
have to refer to the original Hebrew.
In the NT, that would be Greek.

I don't believe you understand the KJV. =A0If you wish to use it, you
have to explain it.

You believe in the Torah as an
absolute authorority, and want to use it as such in our discussion,
whereas I absolutely reject it as that. =A0Jesus said to the hypocrites
like you:

I am welcome to believe any position I want. =A0You have yet to prove me
wrong.
You resort to ad hominem, which the text happens to repeat.

Matthew (KJV):

5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of
me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Funny, because at no time did there issue forth a heavenly voice
saying to all of Israel
Like it did at Mount Sinai, where 3 million people stood and
acknowledged Moses as the
messenger sent by G-d.

Even the NT admits that.

Shabbatai Tzvi a False Messiah in the 17th Century had more followers,
than Jesus.

5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent,
him ye believe not.

I don't believe in false prophets who did not perform any of the
foretold prophecies in Ezekiel 37.
See Deut 13.2-6, Deut 18.

5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.

I have, and guess what I found - Ezekiel 37, Deut. 13.2-6 and 18.
And they do apply to you, Ezekiel 37 did happen, therefore Jesus must
be applied to Deut 13.2-6.
I find something interesting. =A0After the terrible destruction of the
Temple in approximately 68-70 CE.
Not one group survives except for the Rabbis. =A0Christianity as a
religion for the gentile masses, begins
over 40 years after Jesus is allegedly killed, created by a person by
the name of Paul.
Every other Jewish sect is wiped out, except for the Rabbis.
At a period of time, when the Jews are at their lowest, and Rome is at
its highest.

5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I personally like to deal with G-d Himself, not through
intermediaries.
this is a foreign idea, not a Jewish one.

5:41 I receive not honour from men.

What does honor have to do with anything?

5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Great way of rebuking someone you don't even know.

In 5:37, Jesus is telling you that you are worshipping a false G-D.

You don't even know me, and have the audacity and gall to tell me who
I worship!

The true G-D you have never seen nor heard. =A0You have not the word of
the true G-D abiding in you. =A0You believe in the Torah as an absolute
authority,

That maybe true. =A0Does it make a difference? No. You still have not
answered the questions.

but the Torah contradicts itself,

No it does not. =A0Every contradiction maybe answered logically.
In fact there is a book out, it is available in many university book
shops, and Jewish bookstores
its called Chumash with Rashi. =A0Rashi the famous biblical
commentator,
goes through every verse, and points out every grammatical, and
logical problem and answers them all up.

and you lie endlessly

I don't lie. =A0What I have said is not contradictory to my position.

about your own Torah to try to avoid the contradictions, such as
Genesis 18

You have not brought up Genesis 18 until now, Genesis 18 is
not contradictory.

Nonetheless you have not proved anything.
I asked you to assume my position, and attack me from within .
You have not done so, which means you actually can't prove me wrong.
It is therefore intellectually dishonest and an ad hominem to call me
a liar,
when you have not even proved it, but simply assumed it, based on your
preconceived
perception of Rabbis, the Torah, and me.

or Ezekiel 37:24 (which will never happen and you know
it).

How do you know Eze. 37:24 will never happen, you're a prophet right?
I'm sorry, but I have more faith in Ezekiel than you. =A0Ezekiel is an
established Prophet
Who G-d Himself spoke to. =A0In fact, even Christians and Muslims agree
to that.
Now I must listen to you, where I don't think many people agree that
you're a prophet?

In fact, the Torah examined closely reveals the LORDship of
JHVSA, Jehoshua Moshaich, whom you are determined to reject.

The Torah does not mention The anointed chosen servant of G-d once.
In fact, King David, King Solomon, Ruth etc. are not mentioned at all
explicitly. =A0 By Torah I mean the Five-books of Moses.

You depend on honor from men, but you love not the true G-D, because you
are as ignorant of Him as any other atheist or idoloter.

Ad hominem what you say I believe is again, irrelevant, you have yet
to prove your position.

=A0>Indeed you

idolize the Torah, which is just a wall of words intended to brainwash
those who are susceptible to it. =A0Many are, but there will always be
some who are not.

I'm not brainwashing anyone. =A0I simply had a question that need
answering
so far, no one has even come close to answering it.

Read George Orwell.

Which one, Animal Farm?

You call us antisemitic for
seeing through your lies, but that is just a bad joke. =A0In fact, we
are the true Jews and you are antisemitic in the real sense of the
word.

I called you antisemitic, since you repeatedly bash Rabbis you have
not even met,
never mind read. =A0Do me a favor and go up to one, and tell him he is
antisemitic.
words are cheap, opinions are free. =A0In Judaism, actions count and
deeds are what determine a person.

In short, you are a case of arrested development. =A0You stopped
growing spiritually the day you decided to accept the Torah as the
absolute authority in life.

Funny, you seem to know so much about me and you're not even a
prophet.
Ad hominem. =A0BTW, how is my spiritual growth relevant to the topic?

Why look further? =A0You never found G-D,

So what, why do you care what I have or have not found.

but just a bad reflection of Him in a dark and broken mirror. =A0You
would sell your false G-D to the whole world. =A0Perhaps it will buy
into your lies, perhaps it will not, but those of us who know the
truth will never buy into your lies and we will live forever, so you
will have a growing eternal witness to your lies and iniquity.

Nice speech. =A0But again, ad hominem. =A0I believe that G-d loves
everyone
no matter what. =A0 =A0But He has a spiritual rule book to follow, which
is a logical
progression on how the world runs. =A0Everything else runs on a set of
rules - biology,
banking, living, etc. =A0there are rules. =A0If you want to be part of a
group you have to follow the rules
G-d gave His Torah to the Jews, which everyone accepts as true.
The question is are you following the rules or not, for that
determines who you are.
Just like a social security no. determines that you're part of the
American social-security system.
to be part of the system, you follow the rules that the government
lays down. =A0You don't follow the rules,
you're not part of the system and you have no number, or you lose it.

Danny.

You continue to prove yourself unable to respond substance to
substance. Try responding to my post, entitled "The Attainment of
Moses." That contains some very specific Jewish sources that should
clarify your confusion and provide a basis for further discussion, if
you are capable of such.
.

User: "Dannyil"
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	26 Jan 2008 03:41:08 PM

< snipped rant >
RaaN: Without all your jargon and name dropping just state your
position succinctly and clearly and just
exactly why you believe as you do and why anyone else should. If you
are incapable of doing so then a general moratorium should be levied
against your off topic diatribes and a boycott in place to killfile
your ranting. So now speak up while I am listening.
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net : ***** you.
RaaN: And that about sums up your religious sentiments I'm sure.
QED.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	26 Jan 2008 06:11:25 PM

On Jan 26, 1:41=A0pm, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

< snipped rant >
RaaN: Without all your jargon and name dropping just state your
position succinctly and clearly and just
exactly why you believe as you do and why anyone else should. =A0If you
are incapable of doing so then a general moratorium should be levied
against your off topic diatribes and a boycott in place to killfile
your ranting. =A0So now speak up while I am listening.
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net : ***** you.
RaaN: And that about sums up your religious sentiments I'm sure.

QED.

Most illogical. What do you think has been proven? BTW, what is your
IQ? Mine is 180.
.

User: "Mordecai mldavisplease dont"
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	26 Jan 2008 07:02:56 PM

wrote:

On Jan 26, 1:41 pm, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

Most illogical. What do you think has been proven? BTW, what is your
IQ? Mine is 180.

My IQ? Dunno - and don't care. It is a gift from the most high and suitable
(and sufficient) to the tasks I need to perform.
Why is you IQ important? After all - how does it compare with the IQ of the
most high?
Tell me, did you EARN your IQ or the colour of your eyes, or the size of
your genitals?
No?
The things you earn are things like compassion, kindness, charity, help of
all types ... are ignored.
The things we inherit which we do not earn seems to be discussed and
gloated over.
Why do you think people boast over things they have not earned ... and
ignore the important things we do earn?
After all, what we *do* has merit, whilst what we are *given* is just a
present from the most high which enables us to achieve things.
I have puzzled over this psychological peccadillo which we all have. And
the boasting we do. We always boast over that which is irrelevant.
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
.

User: "Dannyil"
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	27 Jan 2008 10:49:48 AM

Most illogical. What do you think has been proven? BTW, what is your
IQ? Mine is 180.

What are you six-years old?
Suddenly you have a high-IQ and now
we should believe what you say?
Danny.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	27 Jan 2008 11:30:44 AM

On Jan 27, 8:49=A0am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

Most illogical. =A0What do you think has been proven? =A0BTW, what is yo=

IQ? =A0Mine is 180.

What are you six-years old?
Suddenly you have a high-IQ and now
we should believe what you say?

Danny.

We are trying to engage in debate and dialogue. That involves
comprehension of what is being said. You don't have it. I wondered
why. Do you understand what I'm saying now or did you miss it again?
.

User: "Dannyil"
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	27 Jan 2008 01:44:57 PM

On Jan 27, 7:30 pm,

wrote:

On Jan 27, 8:49 am,Dannyil<Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

Most illogical. What do you think has been proven? BTW, what is your
IQ? Mine is 180.

What are you six-years old?
Suddenly you have a high-IQ and now
we should believe what you say?

Comparing IQs is a hot-debated subject. For it to work, you need to
factor in different economic, social and cultural environments. You
need the same standardized tests. etc.

We are trying to engage in debate and dialogue. That involves
comprehension of what is being said. You don't have it. I wondered
why. Do you understand what I'm saying now or did you miss it again?

Who is this "we" you keep referring to?
Were you somehow elected at the newsgroup's spokesperson?
1. debate: To engage in a formal discussion or argument. (American
Heritage)
2. dialogue: An exchange of ideas or opinions: (American Heritage)
3. ad hominem: Appealing to personal considerations rather than to
logic or reason (American Heritage)
4. rant: To speak or write in an angry or violent manner; rave.
(American Heritage)
5. rave: To speak wildly, irrationally, or incoherently.
I will give those who watch this group the benefit of deciding whether
this is a debate, dialogue, rant, rave etc.
Danny
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Jesus the Messiah?	27 Jan 2008 11:53:05 PM

On Jan 27, 11:44=A0am, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 27, 7:30 pm,

wrote:

On Jan 27, 8:49 am,Dannyil<Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:

Most illogical. =A0What do you think has been proven? =A0BTW, what i=

s your

IQ? =A0Mine is 180.

What are you six-years old?
Suddenly you have a high-IQ and now
we should believe what you say?

Comparing IQs is a hot-debated subject. =A0For it to work, you need to
factor in different economic, social and cultural environments. =A0You
need the same standardized tests. etc.

We are trying to engage in debate and dialogue. =A0That involves
comprehension of what is being said. =A0You don't have it. =A0I wondered=
why. =A0Do you understand what I'm saying now or did you miss it again?

Who is this "we" you keep referring to?
Were you somehow elected at the newsgroup's spokesperson?
1. debate: To engage in a formal discussion or argument. (American
Heritage)