Re: Name calling



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Pastor Dave"
Date: 25 May 2005 07:48:55 PM
Object: Re: Name calling
On Wed, 25 May 2005 17:38:05 -0700, "Paul Laird"
<smalltoe10@ywave.com> spake thusly:

The hatred, the name-calling, the holier-than-thou attitude of people like
Pastor Dave and H.E. Eickleberry is quite unChristian and is not a good
example of how Jesus calls His people to live.

You can try to vilify me all you wish. The fact is,
what I stated was the truth and I am not the one who
started the name calling between he and I.

The vissectitude and truculence such "Christians" display does not give a
good witness to those who are not believers. There is no way we can take a
message of love and forgiveness to the world if we cannot love and forgive
one another.

I've been reading this group for over 2 years and I'm ashamed to have the
name of Christ associated with the hatred spewed out by the ilk of "Pastor
Dave" and H.E. Eickenberry.

How is it hatred to speak the truth?
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.

User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 12:02:14 PM
Hey, Dave, when did the Jews come out of Babylon and rebuild the temple?
Love ya xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
news:257a91h3fluu6eonnipiu0t7q8d5fsqo85@4ax.com:


.
User: "Midjis"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 01:41:41 PM
A poster using the name of "Pastor Dave" wrote :

Hey, Dave, when did the Jews come out of Babylon and rebuild the temple?

Love ya xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
news:257a91h3fluu6eonnipiu0t7q8d5fsqo85@4ax.com:

I assume given the question you ask that you are H.E. Eickleberry.
Surely there is little point in using Dave's screen name if you then
address the post to him by name? It simply serves to make things that
little bit more difficult for other readers who might not be familiar with
your dispute with Dave.
.
User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 02:46:32 PM
"Midjis" <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9662C8A46728FZRHGRGGNVWLDRAVKW@213.123.26.234...

A poster using the name of "Pastor Dave" wrote :

Hey, Dave, when did the Jews come out of Babylon and rebuild the temple?

Love ya xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
news:257a91h3fluu6eonnipiu0t7q8d5fsqo85@4ax.com:


I assume given the question you ask that you are H.E. Eickleberry.

No, sir, this is not coming from me.
I'm assuming I got my point across.
Ike

Surely there is little point in using Dave's screen name if you then
address the post to him by name? It simply serves to make things that
little bit more difficult for other readers who might not be familiar with
your dispute with Dave.

.
User: "Midjis"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 03:25:09 PM
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> wrote :

No, sir, this is not coming from me.

I'm assuming I got my point across.

Very well. My apologies then for jumping to the wrong conclusion.
.

User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 03:58:08 PM
On Thu, 26 May 2005 14:46:32 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry,
Jr." <Xeickleberrybooks@comcast.net> spake thusly:


"Midjis" <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9662C8A46728FZRHGRGGNVWLDRAVKW@213.123.26.234...

A poster using the name of "Pastor Dave" wrote :

Hey, Dave, when did the Jews come out of Babylon and rebuild the temple?

Love ya xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
news:257a91h3fluu6eonnipiu0t7q8d5fsqo85@4ax.com:


I assume given the question you ask that you are H.E. Eickleberry.


No, sir, this is not coming from me.

I'm assuming I got my point across.

But you did approve of it, calling it a "rebuke", as if
it were proper, in another message.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.




User: "Midjis"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 02:31:42 AM
Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote :

You can try to vilify me all you wish. The fact is,
what I stated was the truth and I am not the one who
started the name calling between he and I.

But you could end it. Or at least choose not to play that particular game.
I seem to recall something in the Bible about 'turning the other cheek'.
Have you ever thought to try this?
Or, as in other discussions we've had recently, is this simply your refusal
to accept that your behaviour is your own lookout? That you must carry the
responsibility for your own share of the 'name-calling'? Would you argue
that to respond abusively to abuse is the only option available?

I've been reading this group for over 2 years and I'm ashamed to have
the name of Christ associated with the hatred spewed out by the ilk of
"Pastor Dave" and H.E. Eickenberry.


How is it hatred to speak the truth?

If truth is spoken in hatred, then it is hatred. If falsehood is presented
as truth in hatred, then it is hatred. And if your word teaches that
hatred is the correct, or indeed the only, response to hatred, then your
word is not teaching the word of Christ.
.
User: "P.T."

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 12:32:49 PM
"Midjis" <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9662570C02370ZRHGRGGNVWLDRAVKW@213.123.26.234...

Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote :

You can try to vilify me all you wish. The fact is,
what I stated was the truth and I am not the one who
started the name calling between he and I.


But you could end it. Or at least choose not to play that particular
game.

That's right, instead of stooping to their level, why not bring them up to a
higher level?
Patty

I seem to recall something in the Bible about 'turning the other cheek'.
Have you ever thought to try this?

Or, as in other discussions we've had recently, is this simply your
refusal
to accept that your behaviour is your own lookout? That you must carry
the
responsibility for your own share of the 'name-calling'? Would you argue
that to respond abusively to abuse is the only option available?


I've been reading this group for over 2 years and I'm ashamed to have
the name of Christ associated with the hatred spewed out by the ilk of
"Pastor Dave" and H.E. Eickenberry.


How is it hatred to speak the truth?


If truth is spoken in hatred, then it is hatred. If falsehood is
presented
as truth in hatred, then it is hatred. And if your word teaches that
hatred is the correct, or indeed the only, response to hatred, then your
word is not teaching the word of Christ.

.

User: "• Ninure Saunders"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 08:04:25 AM
(Ý ) Speech, insults, lies, and slander....what the Bible says
Revilers will have no part in the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:10
REVILE (Heb. qalal, Gr. antiloidoreo, blasphemeo, loidoreo, oneidizo). A
word meaning ³to address with abusive or insulting language,² ³to
reproach.² Israelites were forbidden to revile their parents on pain of
death (Exod 21:17 KJV; NIV ³curses²). Israel was reviled by Moab and Ammon
(Zeph 2:8 KJV; NIV ³taunts²). Jesus endured reviling on the cross (Mark
15:32 KJV). Revilers will have no part in the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:10
KJV; cf. Pss 10:13; 44:16; 74:10, 18).
From the Wordsuth Dictionary:
Revile:
   Inflected Forms   reviled, reviling, reviles
   Definition 1. to speak about or speak to with hostile insults;
disparage or abuse.
   Synonyms   abuse (3) , slur (1) , mock (1) , disparage (1) ,
deprecate (1) , deride
From The Online Plain
Text English Dictionary:
Revile
* (n.) Reproach; reviling.
* (v. t. & i.) To address or abuse with opprobrious and contemptuous language.
from Eugene Peterson's The Message; excerpts from Proverbs 15:
From the NIV Bible dictionary
A gentle response diffuses anger
but a sharp tongue kindles a temper-fire.
An intelligent person is always eager to take in more truth;
fools feed on fast-food fads and fancies.
Better a bread crust shared in love
than a slab of prime rib served in hate.
Prayerful answers come from God-loyal people;
the wicked are sewers of abuse.
These six things doth the LORD hate:
yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies,
and he that soweth discord among brethren. Proverbs 6:16-19
Proverns 15: A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
Matthew 12
35   A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good
things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil
things.
36   But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they
shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37   For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt
be condemned.
Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to
those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who
mistreat you.
Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth
that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart
bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his
mouth speaketh.
Romans 12:
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless, and don't curse.
15 Rejoice with those who rejoice. Weep with those who weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Don't set your mind on high
things, but associate with the humble. Don't be wise in your own conceits.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Respect what is honorable in the sight of
all men.
18 If it is possible, as much as it is up to you, be at peace with all
men. 19 Don't seek revenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to God's
wrath. For it is written, "Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the
Lord." 20 Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty,
give him a drink. For in doing so, you will heap coals of fire on his
head." 21 Don't be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
2 Timothy 2: 24 The Lord's servant must not quarrel, but be gentle towards
all, able to teach, patient, 25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose
him; if perhaps God may give them repentance to the knowledge of the
truth,
26 and they may recover themselves out of the devil's snare, having been
taken captive by him to his will.
2 Timothy 2:23-25
Again I say, don't get involved in foolish arguments which only upset
people and make them angry. God's people must not be quarrelsome; they
must be gentle, patient teachers of those who are wrong. Be humble when
you are trying to teach those who are mixed up concerning the truth. For
IF you talk meekly and courteously to them they are more likely, with
God's help, to turn away from their wrong ideas and believe what is true.
Colossians 3: 8 but now you also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice,
slander, and shameful speaking out of your mouth.
Colossians 4: 6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt,
that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such
as is good for building up as the need may be, that it may give grace to
those who hear.
30 Don't grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed to the day
of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from
you, with all malice.
Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against
such things there is no law.
Philippians 4: 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever
things are honorable, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure,
whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there
is any virtue, and if there is any praise, think about these things.
Philippians 4:9 The things which you learned, received, heard, and saw in
me: do these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
I Peter 2: Putting away therefore all wickedness, all deceit, hypocrisies,
envies, and all evil speaking,
1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain
his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always
to give an answer to every man that asketh you areason of the hope that is
in you with meekness and fear:"
James 3:5 So the tongue is also a little member, and boasts great things.
Behold, how much wood is kindled by how small a fire!
6 And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the
tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of
nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna.
7 For every kind of animal, bird, creeping thing, and thing in the sea, is
tamed, and has been tamed by mankind.
8 But nobody can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly
poison. 9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men,
who are made in the image of God.
10 Out of the same mouth comes forth blessing and cursing. My brothers,
these things ought not to be so.
James 4:11-12 "Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh
evil of his
brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the
law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that
judgest another?"
Peace,
• Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
The Bible Site - help provide free scripture
http://www.thebiblesite.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.
User: "Pastor Steve Winter"

Title: Re: Name calling 27 May 2005 02:43:24 PM
(• Ninure Saunders)
spake thusly and wrote:

Revilers will have no part in the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:10

Did God "revile" the Sodomites in Sodom?
Did not Jesus call falsely religious scum like Ninure Saunders
names like "scum"?
It is notable how many of trinity cults are making headlines for
their sub-canine morals embracing the "G"ot "A"ids "Y"et crowd.
See http://www.prerapture.org/Sewers.html
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with
womankind: it [is] abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with
a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall
surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:
for even their women did change the natural use into that which
is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of
the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men
working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that
recompence of their error which was meet.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in
[their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do
those things which are not convenient;
I Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not
inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators,
nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor EFFEMINATE, nor abusers of
themselves with mankind,
I wonder if I've been "exhaustive" enough here with this brief
Bible study. It does seem from these verses that God does have
feelings concerning certain matters....
I hope this helps...
Pastor sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
.

User: "~ vera ~"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 09:21:22 AM
[KJV]
.. Ninure Saunders wrote:

The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay

The Lord is not the shepherd of the gay. The devil is. He was their shepherd
in Sodom and Gomorrah as well... Those people were all deat later on, with
some exceptions.
Have you not learned anything from that???
No, people will never learn, and they will continue to live according to
their will, not God's.
What you seem to oversee. God can and will destroy the chaff.

<> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>

Our Father, who is in Heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our debts
as we also forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil.
For Yours is the kingdom,
and the power,
and the glory,
forever.
Amen.
(Matthew 6:9-13 MKJV)
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
~ vera ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de ~
~ http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm ~
~ http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Growing-Deeper ~
~ http://www.e-sword.net ~
.
User: "Pastor Steve Winter"

Title: Re: Name calling 27 May 2005 02:44:06 PM
"~ vera ~" <verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> spake thusly and
wrote:

The Lord is not the shepherd of the gay. The devil is. He was their shepherd
in Sodom and Gomorrah as well... Those people were all deat later on, with
some exceptions.

He is also not the shepherd of the trinity filth either, vera.
But the false-christian scum "vera" worships the SAME TRINITY GOD
SQUAD that the pope did and she is headed to the same lake.
In what way is vera's three headed Roman idol god squad
different from the popes three headed Roman idol god squad?
In what way is vera's trinity cult baptism different
than the pope's trinity cult baptism?
Vera is merely "Catholic lite"<tm>, polytheistic, false-christian
scum.
Pastor Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
.

User: "Midjis"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 09:58:35 AM
"~ vera ~" <verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote :

The Lord is not the shepherd of the gay. The devil is. He was their
shepherd in Sodom and Gomorrah as well... Those people were all deat
later on, with some exceptions.

Have you not learned anything from that???

No, people will never learn, and they will continue to live according
to their will, not God's.

What you seem to oversee. God can and will destroy the chaff.

If being gay was a conscious choice, as is, for example, murder or (dare I
say) rape, then this argument would make sense. As it no more a choice
then, say, being black, or being tall, then your God is inconsistent indeed
if He chooses to punish some, but not all, of His creation based on what He
has made them.
.
User: "• Ninure Saunders"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 11:34:05 AM
-"~ vera ~" <verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote :
-
-> The Lord is not the shepherd of the gay. The devil is. He was their
-> shepherd in Sodom and Gomorrah as well... Those people were all deat
-> later on, with some exceptions.
->
<piggybacking since i have Vera killfiled>
In ancient societies where there were no hotels, no rapid transport and
little rule of law, cultural mores governing hospitality and respect for
sojourning strangers were essentials for survival, and therefore of the
utmost importance. In the mythology of Greece, next to hubris alone,
inhospitality provoked the greatest wrath among the gods and goddesses.
This was no less the case in ancient Israel.
Hospitality is a very important item in the Bible and is mentioned many
times:
Exodus 22:21; 23:9
Deuteronomy 10:19; 14:29; 24:14-22
Leviticus 19:33-34 •Matthew 10:5-15
Mark 6:7-11
Luke 10:3-12
Romans 12:6-15
1 Timothy 3:2
Titus 1:7-8
1 Peter 4:8-10
At the center of Sodom's greatest transgression was the violation of
that ancient code of hospitality. Jesus, in recalling the doom of Sodom
and Gomorrah, says nothing regarding any sexual improprieties. Instead
he speaks of these cities exemplifying the fate of those towns which
refuse to welcome the apostles.
And that little incident brings to mind another point: Harboring unknown
strangers within a city for the night was dangerous. The residents of
the city had great reason to demand to see Lot's guests. The Bible has
recorded an incident wherein a mere two people were responsible for
bringing about the total destruction of an entire city. (Joshua,
chapters 2 and 6.) According to that account, spies were sent to discern
the nature of the city and its defenses. They were sheltered by a lady
by the name of Rahab. And despite the fact that Rahab was a prostitute,
and that prostitution was a grave sin: a short time later, Rahab's
family was the only one in Jericho which survived Joshua's attack. Why?
Hospitality.
The lands of the Bible were -- and still are -- dangerous places, with
wars of power and conquest frequently breaking out; where entire
kingdoms came and went, sometimes in the span of a mere decade. (The
Philistines, Canaanites, Persians, Macedonians, Egyptians, Phoenicians,
Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, Greeks, and -- of course -- the
Israelites didn't just happen to find uninhabited patches of land; they
all fought for the property.) Is it unreasonable -- in the light of such
an event -- for the residents to be a tad paranoid and angry? Do we not
seek out and punish spies even today?
City gates were closed at night expressly to prevent lawless or
subversive aliens from entering on unknown errands, and travelers
carried credentials because they might at any time be asked to prove
that they were abroad on legitimate business. Thus we might translate
"Bring them out to us, that we might know them" as "We wish to know whom
you are bringing into our city" or (in the vernacular of WWII German
movies) "Ve vant to see your papers!"
Now we see why the bringing of strangers into the city, at night, sans
the approval of the leaders of that city, was a punishable offense. Lot,
not being a resident of that city, was naturally not deemed trustable
enough to have that privilege. In essence: He insulted the city's
inhabitants with his flagrant -- and in retrospect, obviously dangerous
-- behavior. They were out to "learn him a little lesson".
Now, as a host, it would have been a grave offense against the
hospitality code to turn his guests over to the mob. However, that
refusal created a catch-22: He had no right to shelter his guests in the
first place. He was obliged to protect them as honored guests, yet they
were guests he should not have had... Their arrival had not been
sanctioned by the city elders. Furthermore, Lot's refusal to let the
town's people have a look see at his guests only served to further fan
the flames of suspicion: Perhaps Lot's "guests" really were enemy agents
sent to spy out weaknesses within the city...
The angels were probably about to be shown the tender mercies of the
fist; perhaps to their death. (If one can kill an angel. But, since the
townspeople knew not the supernatural nature of the "guests," they
likely assumed that they were mere mortals, and thus capable of dying.)
The residents had very good reasons to fear Lot's "guests". For all they
knew -- and this was actually the case, unbeknownst to them at the time
-- their very lives were at the mercy of the strangers. Only the truly
psychopathic and/or sociopathic are completely unconcerned with threats
to their own lives. (Which raises another point: If the residents DIDN'T
try to "teach Lot's guests a lesson," they would have truly been worthy
of God's wrath over their immorality. It would appear that the city was
doomed from the very start.)

Exploring history:

The hospitality code regarding guests and practice of humiliating
enemies is well documented. From the Texts of Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit
from north Syria, circa 1400BC) we read that an ideal son is one "Who
would drive away any who would molest his night-guest." The parallel to
the Sodom story is not to be overlooked. Indeed, the editor of that text
(Winton Thomas) links the passage to the common practice among the
Bedouin AND Lot in Genesis 19.
J. Edgar Brun in "Old Testament History and the Development of a Sexual
Ethic" cites the practice of raping the defeated male enemy --
especially amongst the Egyptians -- as a form and symbol of domination.
He then links this historical fact to the later Hebrew prohibition of
male homosexual acts. He states:
"[The Israelites] too viewed sodomy [sic] as an expression of scorn; and
in a society where the dignity of the male was a primary consideration,
voluntary acts of a homosexual nature could not be tolerated. Both
parties would then be undermining the very foundation of a patriarchal
society; the one because he uses another as a woman; the other because
he allows himself to be used as a woman.
And so centuries passed, and generations of Jewish scholars continued to
understand the divine retribution against Sodom and Gomorrah to be a
lesson on arrogance and inhospitality. Only later did Church moralists
refer to the Sodom story in the context of sexual practices. (Such as
when, late in the first century A.D., the writer of the book of Jude
asserts that Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave
themselves over to sexual immorality. (Jude 1:7)) Still, this is no
indictment against the homosexual orientation.

Graphology and semantics:

Some translations of the Bible speak of the Sodomites going after
"strange flesh" (Greek: "sarkos heteras"). The word "heteras" means
"different." (Thus do we get the word "hetero"sexual). As is made clear
by apocryphal Hebrew writings, Jude is referencing the Sodomites'
attempt to rape angels. It is worth noting that Jude is the only
biblical writer who connected the sins of the Sodomites to sexual
immorality and still was ambiguous regarding homosexuality.
The word "sodomite" occurs five times in the Bible: Deuteronomy 23:17; I
Kings 14:24, 15:12, and 22:46; and II Kings 23:7. In all five cases it
translates the Hebrew word "qadesh" which means a male prostitute in a
pagan temple.
The part of the story in which Lot offers his daughters to be raped in
order to appease the crowd clearly demonstrates that there is NOT a
sexual ethic for the 20th Century in this story at all. It abuses the
dignity of women, and demonstrates that sexual _orientation_ was not an
operative concept at the time the story emerged.
But we're not done yet. The traditional concept of the sin of Sodom
arises from the fact that the Hebrew word here translated as "to know"
(yadha) is used by itself in ten places in the Old Testament to denote
heterosexual intercourse. In five additional texts it is used in
conjunction with "mishkabh" (in this context, "to lie") to mean the same
thing. But yadha appears by itself no less than 943 times in a nonsexual
connotation; meaning simply to "get acquainted with" or "learn of" in a
scholarly sense.
There is no Old Testament text in which yadha refers to homosexual
coitus, with the single exception of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah
found in Genesis. The less ambiguous word shakab, however, is used for
homosexual, heterosexual, and bestial intercourse. Shakab appears fifty
times in the Old Testament. If it had been used instead of yadha in the
Sodom story, the meaning of the text would have been unmistakable.
"Shkobeth" or "raba" could also have been used for their sexual
connotations, yet they weren't; lending credence to the theory that sex
wasn't what the men desired.
Moreover, even if people must insist (evidence to the contrary
notwithstanding) that the men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the
strangers, that's a matter of rape, not homosexual love. I think we can
all agree that rape is right up there on the list of big sins, and
further that it is an act of power, control, and violence, not of love
between consenting adults.

Some observations:

There's another Old Testament passage that is relevant. The story is
found in Judges 19:11-30. It bears a striking resemblance to the Sodom
story -- a traveler arrives at the city (in this case, Gilbeah). There
he meets an old man who is, like Lot, a resident alien. The old man
warns the traveler that he should not stay in the town square, and he
extends the hand of hospitality in accordance with Holy law, inviting
the traveler to share his abode for the night. And here too, the
permission of the city elders is not sought. So, the men of the city
surround the old man's house and demand that the traveler be sent out so
"that we may know him" (there's that "yadha" again). (It should be noted
that the traveler and the man in question were not related. A family was
allowed to provide shelter to its members without question.) The old man
refuses to send out the guest, but offers his virgin daughter and his
concubine to the mob instead. When the crowd rejects the offer, the old
man throws his concubine outside as a diversion, whereupon the "base
fellows" in the mob rape and abuse her all night, leaving her dying at
the threshold. When the Israelites learn of the abuse of the concubine,
they rise up against Gilbeah and, with God's help, destroy the city.
Here we have an instance almost identical to Sodom, except that this
time we have not mere attempted rape, but actual heterosexual rape
combined with murder. Yet no one uses this story to imply God's
condemnation of heterosexuality in general, do they? Likewise, it is
specious to suggest that the story of Sodom is instructional with regard
to homosexuality in general. Even if the original intent of both the
townsmen of Sodom and those of Gilbeah was homosexual rape, obviously
both stories are about heterosexual males who indulge in it as a sport
or game of dominance. Otherwise the offers of females as diversionary
sexual objects -- and the subsequent spurning of said offers -- in both
stories makes no sense. To extend such an offer to homosexual males
would be pointless because it would hold no interest for them. (A hetero
friend of mine has suggested that perhaps all the women in question were
overweight cows; and that, as such, the men could be forgiven for
sending them all back. His wife slapped him.)
I am reminded of a synagogue prayer recited by Jewish men which included
the expression of thanksgiving, "Blessed are you, o Lord, who has not
made me a woman." Women where chattel in these ancient societies. This
is why Lot was so quick to offer his daughters as a bribe. (BTW, had he
believed that the Sodomites were all homosexuals, why would he have even
bothered?) Lot did not want to bring dishonor upon himself. Similarly,
the Levite in Judges 19 allowed his own wife to be raped. He only got
upset when she died, rendering his "property" thus irreparably damaged.
Those who insist that Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality are denying
the very Bible they claim to revere, and attempting to push a laden
camel through the eye of a needle. They are required to make five
outrageous leaps of faith:
1. Homosexual love is equal to rape;
2. "Yadha" meant homosexual acts only once or twice and something else
943 times;
3. All of the other references to Sodom's sins contained in the Bible
are in error, incomplete, or obfuscatory;
4. The strict codes regarding hospitality and the safety of travelers
were immaterial, and;
5. The concubine of the man of Gilbeah was a male.

The religious landscape:

We should also remember that the monotheism of Judaism was in strict
competition with many other religions of the time, some of which
practiced anal sex as a way to gain their god's favor. Specifically,
those gods were: Inana, Anath, Molech, Ishtar, Baal, and Asherah. These
gods had both male and female priests and having sex with those priests
was an act of worship designed to bring about the fertility of fields
and to ensure childbirth.
The Bible even records a specific instance of one of these fertility
practices: The use of "love-apples" (or mandrakes) to conceive. (Genesis
30:14-17 (Rachel bargains with Leah for the "love-apples" so that she
might spend the night sexually with Jacob.))
These Gods were popular. Molech is mentioned several times: Leviticus
18:21, 20:2-5; 1Kings 11:5; 2 Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 32:35; Acts 7:43.
Baal, next on the "popularity poll," gets a few more mentions: Judges
2:11-13, 6:25-32; 1Samuel 7:4; 1Kings 16:31-32, 18:18&40, 19:18; 2Kings
3:2, 10:18-25, 11:18, 21:3, 23:4-5; 2Chronicles 24:7, 28:2, 33:3;
Jeremiah 2:8&23, 7:9, 23:13; Hosea 2:13-17, 13:1.
The most liked of all -- at least by way of mentions in the Bible -- was
Asherah, sometimes referred to as The Queen of the Heavens. She was also
called the consort of God or "Elat," which is the female form of the
Caananite's name for God: "El". She gets a direct mention in 2Kings
23:7. Her worshipers were called the Ashtoreths, and they and their
worship are mentioned a breathtaking number of times in the Bible:
Deuteronomy 16:21; Judges 2:13, 3:7, 6:28, 10:6; 1Samuel 7:3-4, 12:10,
31:10; 1Kings 11:5&33, 14:15&23, 15:13, 18:19; 2Kings 13:6, 17:10&16,
18:4, 21:3-7, 23:13-14; 2Chronicles 14:3, 17:6, 19:3, 24:18, 34:3-4;
Isaiah 17:8, 27:9; Jeremiah 17:2; and Micah 5:14.
So, what we have here is the authors of the Old Testament expressing a
demand that the Israelites give their loyalty and fealty to the ONE GOD
(ignoring the implied impressing of servitude in Proverbs 8:22 of
course), lest they face judgment. This was to be accomplished via the
Holiness Code; whose one major emphases was to protect the Israelites
from idolatry and help them distinguish between magical and faithful
thinking. This was indeed a problem, as can be witnessed by at least one
incident involving Jacob's wife and some terafim, or small idols, in
Genesis 31:33-35. Pagan influences can STILL be seen in Christianity
today. Ever ever wondered what Bacchus -- the ancient Greek god of
carnal pleasures and "partying" who is featured in the Bacchus Parade
held during Mardi Gras -- has to do with Christianity? Simple: He was an
influence who -- much like Mithras -- just could not be stamped out and
was thus "adopted into" this new, budding faith.
The Holiness Code had nothing to do with homosexuality as we understand
it today. The prohibitions against homosexual sex acts were meant to
keep the people in God's thrall -- and note that there are no
prohibitions against homosexuals themselves anywhere in the Bible.
Generally speaking, Old Testament proscriptions against homosexual
behavior are culturally bound, serving a distinct purpose whose time has
passed. They stem from the times of the Hebrew tribes wandering in the
wilderness and settling in Canaan. The Hebrews needed strict moral laws
governing social behavior, dietary habits and social interaction to
enforce their distinct uniqueness as a group of people. The laws
separated the Hebrews from the rest of the rabble. These proscriptions
were later codified during the crisis of the Babylonian Captivity, when
the Jews needed strict religious laws to insure their cultural survival
as a separate ("holy") people in an alien land, nothing more, nothing
less.
An example of this may be found in Deuteronomy 23:17-18:
"None of the daughters of Israel shall be a temple prostitute; none of
the sons of Israel shall be a temple prostitute. You shall not bring the
fee of a prostitute or the wages of a male prostitute into the house of
the Lord your God in payment for any vow, for both of these are
abhorrent to the Lord your God."
Many early gods -- Molech for instance -- had "temple prostitutes" which
one could obtain "blessings" from for a bit of coinage. There were both
male and female qadeshim available for different types of blessings.
Most of Molech's male temple prostitutes were young boys, since youth
was important. Most of the "customers" were heterosexual, and it was
easier to entice them with effeminate adolescents. Many fundamentalists
still remember that state of affairs, and try to accuse homosexuals of
being pedophiles, simply because they forget that it wasn't until God
arrived on the scene that it was suddenly immoral for men to be screwing
boys. And it would shock them to the core to travel back in time and see
heterosexuals dallying in homosexuality.
Leviticus 18:21 is a command not to "pass the seed through the fire,"
which is a prohibition against dedicating ones' child to be a temple
prostitute. For a man to seek the "blessings of Molech" with one of
Molech's male temple prostitutes was rather common. Bolstering that
admonition, we have Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 which read:
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed
an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them."
The operative cultural bias here is that it is an abomination to treat
another man like a woman. Males were thought to be made in the image of
God; thus homosexual behavior would be seen through the heterosexual
majority's eyes as violating the image of God.
Furthermore, the "detestable" nature of lying "as a woman" refers to a
male's assuming the PASSIVE role in anal intercourse, which was held to
be an "abomination" since a male was taking on the inferior status of
women. Apparently it does not view the "active" role in anal intercourse
as an abomination, nor other homosexual acts. (I.e., fellatio, mutual
masturbation, and "sensual massage")
It's important to note that these verses, and all the others condemning
homosexual sex, are denouncing the act of male-male sex. They do not,
however, cast sentence on what we refer to in modern times as
homosexuality. Note the lack of any mention of two women having sex
being and act worthy of death for instance. People using Leviticus to
condemn homosexuality are missing the point. The verses in question are
chastising those who are male, and who choose to seek the blessings of
any deity other than God. (Thus ruining the concept of monotheism.) Now
since Molech was one of God's competitors, and since Molech had male
prostitutes, it is only logical that such items should be mentioned as
being "bad things." It is a prohibition against seeking blessings from
Molech, not a condemnation against seeking the love of another human
being.

Closing thoughts:

Has the point sunk in yet? The Holiness Codes, and similar systems that
are found in the Old Testament, were there to make absolutely certain
someone converted to Judaism and did not stray into pagan religions of
the time. Same-sex intercourse was practiced by some of the pagan
religions, and thus we see the Old Testament condemning that act because
of what it represents in the eyes of the authors: straying from the
fealty of Yahweh. Not only did the ancient religious leaders seek to
keep the Israelites from participating in temple prostitution, they
sought to eliminate ALL such pagan practices, regardless of orientation.
(It took the Israelites some 700 years to fully abandon their previous
religious beliefs and worship God alone.)
More to the point: the Israelites were instinctively concerned with
maximizing the probabilities of procreation. Religious laws governing
sexual practices reinforced that basic tribal concern. Centuries later,
when the Jews were enslaved in Babylon and the Holiness Code took the
form we know today, such religious laws reinforced the Jews' sense of
being a people set apart from the cultural practices around them. Today
we understand the dignity of women, human sexuality in general, and
homosexuality in particular in ways inconceivable to the ancient priests
who compiled Leviticus. As Christians, we are freed from the Law and
saved by grace (Romans 7:6; Galatians 5:4-6, Titus 1:15).
So, ANY unrepentant sinners -- violators of the Holiness Code -- will be
in Hell along with those "Sodomites" they so despise; unless one is
willing to concede the point that these are historical rules meant to be
examined in light of history. When Jesus came along and fulfilled the
scriptures, we see that he brought a message of unconditional love. So,
before one more person talks any more about how those fill-in-the-blanks
will burn in fiery damnation, maybe we should all bust open our
fun-filled copies of Exodus to discover why we might have first class
reservations in Motel Hell. (I know I do. I'm wearing a cotton/polyester
blend shirt, which is a definite no-no and I had a haircut last week
just before I went to Red Lobster for dinner. I am truly evil incarnate
according to the Holiness Code.)
Which brings up other questions:
- How come we never see people condemning those against immigration: as
Exodus 22:23 demands? (You shall not wrong or oppress a stranger, for
you were strangers in the land of Egypt.) I guess the Nativist Party is
going to Hell along with anybody against immigration.
- What about Exodus 22:2? (If a thief is found breaking in, and is
beaten to death, no bloodguilt is incurred; BUT if it happens after
sunrise, bloodguilt is incurred). All you need is a Timex to get off the
hook. Right?
- How about Exodus 22:25? (If you lend money to my people; to the poor
among you, you shall not deal with them as a creditor; you shall not
exact interest from them.) Hmm... Looks like the whole banking industry
is Hell-bound with those evil "Sodomites" too!
- And what of those who despise the President, or their local Governor
or Mayor? Exodus 22:28 (You shall not curse God, or curse a leader of
your people.)
- For all you graduates of "tough love" out there, may I present Exodus
21:17 (Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.)
- And for all you premaritals: Exodus 22:16 (When a man seduces a virgin
who is not engaged to be married, and lies with her, he shall pay the
"bride price" for her and make her his wife. But if her father refuses
to GIVE her to him, he shall pay an amount equal to the "bride price"
for virgins.
And what if this whole Sodom thing is merely an attempt to convince as
many people as possible to "join the party" with all the "believers" who
will also find themselves attending the eternal bar-b-q? What if this
entire "Sodom equals homosexuality" ploy is nothing more than a baseless
perversion of God's word? Perhaps something that was originally
well-intended, but which now has gone horribly awry. What of that?
We've seen the refutation of "Sodom equals homosexual" by the Bible's
own words. The prohibitions imposed against the Israelites were lifted
by both God and Jesus. (By Jesus in Matthew 6:25 and Mark 7:15. God
gives Peter a vision stating the same in Acts 10:9-15. And Paul echoes
those thoughts in Romans 7:6; Galatians 5:4-6, and Titus 1:15.) Those
seeking to vilify homosexuals and whom contend that they are sinful and
damned by God, simply because of a mistaken belief in ancient purity
codes -- which have been revoked by God and Jesus -- need to be
corrected. The perversion of God's word is punishable by eternal
damnation. (Revelation 22:18-19) Let us see to it that no more go to
Hell than need be.
The Bible has been manipulated and "edited" throughout time for
political gain and other less-than-holy objectives. Peruse a small essay
on the contents of the Bible or one which deals with some curious
"translations" and editings of Christianity's holy book if you like. One
doesn't need to dig too deeply to see that certain things are being
artificially placed into the Bible. A person with eyes and two working
neurons can see that some people are using distortions of the Word for
their own personal gain. The question is what to do about such things.
Let's set about correcting a dangerous myth before any more souls are
lost to the fiery depths of Hell. After all, Christians are charged with
spreading the Word, not some perversion of it...

------------------------------------------------
Bibliography
* A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and
Islam by Karen Armstrong. (Alfred A. Knopf, 1993)
* The Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead by R. O. Falkner. (Brittish
Museum, London, 1985)
* The Dictionary of World Myth by Peter Bently, general editor. (Facts
On File, Duncan Baird Publishers 1995)
* The Holy Bible, 3rd Edition by White Harvest Software, Inc. (White
Harvest Software, 1995)
* The Larousse Desk Reference, James Hughes general editor (Larousse
Kingfisher Chambers Inc., 1995)
* The Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia (versions 6.03 and 7.05) by
Grolier Inc. (Grolier Electronic Publishing, 1993 and 1995)
* The World of the Bible by Roberta L. Harris. (Thames and Hudson Ltd. 1995)
Peace,
• Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
The Bible Site - help provide free scripture
http://www.thebiblesite.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.
User: "~ vera ~"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 01:50:02 PM
.. Ninure Saunders wrote:

The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay

There is no Scriptural base for this.
The Lord is not the shepherd of the gay. The devil is. He was their
shepherd in Sodom and Gomorrah as well... Those people were all
dead later on, with some exceptions.
God bless you,
~ vera ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de ~
~ http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm ~
~ http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Growing-Deeper ~
~ http://www.e-sword.net ~
.

User: "Ben Mitts"

Title: Re: Name calling 26 May 2005 09:00:18 PM
• Ninure Saunders wrote:

-"~ vera ~" <verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote :
-
-> The Lord is not the shepherd of the gay. The devil is. He was their
-> shepherd in Sodom and Gomorrah as well... Those people were all deat
-> later on, with some exceptions.
->

<piggybacking since i have Vera killfiled>


In ancient societies where there were no hotels, no rapid transport and
little rule of law, cultural mores governing hospitality and respect for
sojourning strangers were essentials for survival, and therefore of the
utmost importance. In the mythology of Greece, next to hubris alone,
inhospitality provoked the greatest wrath among the gods and goddesses.
This was no less the case in ancient Israel.

Hospitality is a very important item in the Bible and is mentioned many
times:

Exodus 22:21; 23:9
Deuteronomy 10:19; 14:29; 24:14-22
Leviticus 19:33-34 •Matthew 10:5-15
Mark 6:7-11
Luke 10:3-12
Romans 12:6-15
1 Timothy 3:2
Titus 1:7-8
1 Peter 4:8-10

At the center of Sodom's greatest transgression was the violation of
that ancient code of hospitality. Jesus, in recalling the doom of Sodom
and Gomorrah, says nothing regarding any sexual improprieties. Instead
he speaks of these cities exemplifying the fate of those towns which
refuse to welcome the apostles.

And that little incident brings to mind another point: Harboring unknown
strangers within a city for the night was dangerous. The residents of
the city had great reason to demand to see Lot's guests. The Bible has
recorded an incident wherein a mere two people were responsible for
bringing about the total destruction of an entire city. (Joshua,
chapters 2 and 6.) According to that account, spies were sent to discern
the nature of the city and its defenses. They were sheltered by a lady
by the name of Rahab. And despite the fact that Rahab was a prostitute,
and that prostitution was a grave sin: a short time later, Rahab's
family was the only one in Jericho which survived Joshua's attack. Why?
Hospitality.

The lands of the Bible were -- and still are -- dangerous places, with
wars of power and conquest frequently breaking out; where entire
kingdoms came and went, sometimes in the span of a mere decade. (The
Philistines, Canaanites, Persians, Macedonians, Egyptians, Phoenicians,
Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, Greeks, and -- of course -- the
Israelites didn't just happen to find uninhabited patches of land; they
all fought for the property.) Is it unreasonable -- in the light of such
an event -- for the residents to be a tad paranoid and angry? Do we not
seek out and punish spies even today?

City gates were closed at night expressly to prevent lawless or
subversive aliens from entering on unknown errands, and travelers
carried credentials because they might at any time be asked to prove
that they were abroad on legitimate business. Thus we might translate
"Bring them out to us, that we might know them" as "We wish to know whom
you are bringing into our city" or (in the vernacular of WWII German
movies) "Ve vant to see your papers!"

Now we see why the bringing of strangers into the city, at night, sans
the approval of the leaders of that city, was a punishable offense. Lot,
not being a resident of that city, was naturally not deemed trustable
enough to have that privilege. In essence: He insulted the city's
inhabitants with his flagrant -- and in retrospect, obviously dangerous
-- behavior. They were out to "learn him a little lesson".

Now, as a host, it would have been a grave offense against the
hospitality code to turn his guests over to the mob. However, that
refusal created a catch-22: He had no right to shelter his guests in the
first place. He was obliged to protect them as honored guests, yet they
were guests he should not have had... Their arrival had not been
sanctioned by the city elders. Furthermore, Lot's refusal to let the
town's people have a look see at his guests only served to further fan
the flames of suspicion: Perhaps Lot's "guests" really were enemy agents
sent to spy out weaknesses within the city...

The angels were probably about to be shown the tender mercies of the
fist; perhaps to their death. (If one can kill an angel. But, since the
townspeople knew not the supernatural nature of the "guests," they
likely assumed that they were mere mortals, and thus capable of dying.)

The residents had very good reasons to fear Lot's "guests". For all they
knew -- and this was actually the case, unbeknownst to them at the time
-- their very lives were at the mercy of the strangers. Only the truly
psychopathic and/or sociopathic are completely unconcerned with threats
to their own lives. (Which raises another point: If the residents DIDN'T
try to "teach Lot's guests a lesson," they would have truly been worthy
of God's wrath over their immorality. It would appear that the city was
doomed from the very start.)


Exploring history:

The hospitality code regarding guests and practice of humiliating
enemies is well documented. From the Texts of Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit
from north Syria, circa 1400BC) we read that an ideal son is one "Who
would drive away any who would molest his night-guest." The parallel to
the Sodom story is not to be overlooked. Indeed, the editor of that text
(Winton Thomas) links the passage to the common practice among the
Bedouin AND Lot in Genesis 19.

J. Edgar Brun in "Old Testament History and the Development of a Sexual
Ethic" cites the practice of raping the defeated male enemy --
especially amongst the Egyptians -- as a form and symbol of domination.
He then links this historical fact to the later Hebrew prohibition of
male homosexual acts. He states:

"[The Israelites] too viewed sodomy [sic] as an expression of scorn; and
in a society where the dignity of the male was a primary consideration,
voluntary acts of a homosexual nature could not be tolerated. Both
parties would then be undermining the very foundation of a patriarchal
society; the one because he uses another as a woman; the other because
he allows himself to be used as a woman.

And so centuries passed, and generations of Jewish scholars continued to
understand the divine retribution against Sodom and Gomorrah to be a
lesson on arrogance and inhospitality. Only later did Church moralists
refer to the Sodom story in the context of sexual practices. (Such as
when, late in the first century A.D., the writer of the book of Jude
asserts that Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave
themselves over to sexual immorality. (Jude 1:7)) Still, this is no
indictment against the homosexual orientation.


Graphology and semantics:

Some translations of the Bible speak of the Sodomites going after
"strange flesh" (Greek: "sarkos heteras"). The word "heteras" means
"different." (Thus do we get the word "hetero"sexual). As is made clear
by apocryphal Hebrew writings, Jude is referencing the Sodomites'
attempt to rape angels. It is worth noting that Jude is the only
biblical writer who connected the sins of the Sodomites to sexual
immorality and still was ambiguous regarding homosexuality.

The word "sodomite" occurs five times in the Bible: Deuteronomy 23:17; I
Kings 14:24, 15:12, and 22:46; and II Kings 23:7. In all five cases it
translates the Hebrew word "qadesh" which means a male prostitute in a
pagan temple.

The part of the story in which Lot offers his daughters to be raped in
order to appease the crowd clearly demonstrates that there is NOT a
sexual ethic for the 20th Century in this story at all. It abuses the
dignity of women, and demonstrates that sexual _orientation_ was not an
operative concept at the time the story emerged.

But we're not done yet. The traditional concept of the sin of Sodom
arises from the fact that the Hebrew word here translated as "to know"
(yadha) is used by itself in ten places in the Old Testament to denote
heterosexual intercourse. In five additional texts it is used in
conjunction with "mishkabh" (in this context, "to lie") to mean the same
thing. But yadha appears by itself no less than 943 times in a nonsexual
connotation; meaning simply to "get acquainted with" or "learn of" in a
scholarly sense.

There is no Old Testament text in which yadha refers to homosexual
coitus, with the single exception of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah
found in Genesis. The less ambiguous word shakab, however, is used for
homosexual, heterosexual, and bestial intercourse. Shakab appears fifty
times in the Old Testament. If it had been used instead of yadha in the
Sodom story, the meaning of the text would have been unmistakable.
"Shkobeth" or "raba" could also have been used for their sexual
connotations, yet they weren't; lending credence to the theory that sex
wasn't what the men desired.

Moreover, even if people must insist (evidence to the contrary
notwithstanding) that the men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the
strangers, that's a matter of rape, not homosexual love. I think we can
all agree that rape is right up there on the list of big sins, and
further that it is an act of power, control, and violence, not of love
between consenting adults.


Some observations:

There's another Old Testament passage that is relevant. The story is
found in Judges 19:11-30. It bears a striking resemblance to the Sodom
story -- a traveler arrives at the city (in this case, Gilbeah). There
he meets an old man who is, like Lot, a resident alien. The old man
warns the traveler that he should not stay in the town square, and he
extends the hand of hospitality in accordance with Holy law, inviting
the traveler to share his abode for the night. And here too, the
permission of the city elders is not sought. So, the men of the city
surround the old man's house and demand that the traveler be sent out so
"that we may know him" (there's that "yadha" again). (It should be noted
that the traveler and the man in question were not related. A family was
allowed to provide shelter to its members without question.) The old man
refuses to send out the guest, but offers his virgin daughter and his
concubine to the mob instead. When the crowd rejects the offer, the old
man throws his concubine outside as a diversion, whereupon the "base
fellows" in the mob rape and abuse her all night, leaving her dying at
the threshold. When the Israelites learn of the abuse of the concubine,
they rise up against Gilbeah and, with God's help, destroy the city.

Here we have an instance almost identical to Sodom, except that this
time we have not mere attempted rape, but actual heterosexual rape
combined with murder. Yet no one uses this story to imply God's
condemnation of heterosexuality in general, do they? Likewise, it is
specious to suggest that the story of Sodom is instructional with regard
to homosexuality in general. Even if the original intent of both the
townsmen of Sodom and those of Gilbeah was homosexual rape, obviously
both stories are about heterosexual males who indulge in it as a sport
or game of dominance. Otherwise the offers of females as diversionary
sexual objects -- and the subsequent spurning of said offers -- in both
stories makes no sense. To extend such an offer to homosexual males
would be pointless because it would hold no interest for them. (A hetero
friend of mine has suggested that perhaps all the women in question were
overweight cows; and that, as such, the men could be forgiven for
sending them all back. His wife slapped him.)

I am reminded of a synagogue prayer recited by Jewish men which included
the expression of thanksgiving, "Blessed are you, o Lord, who has not
made me a woman." Women where chattel in these ancient societies. This
is why Lot was so quick to offer his daughters as a bribe. (BTW, had he
believed that the Sodomites were all homosexuals, why would he have even
bothered?) Lot did not want to bring dishonor upon himself. Similarly,
the Levite in Judges 19 allowed his own wife to be raped. He only got
upset when she died, rendering his "property" thus irreparably damaged.

Those who insist that Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality are denying
the very Bible they claim to revere, and attempting to push a laden
camel through the eye of a needle. They are required to make five
outrageous leaps of faith:

1. Homosexual love is equal to rape;
2. "Yadha" meant homosexual acts only once or twice and something else
943 times;
3. All of the other references to Sodom's sins contained in the Bible
are in error, incomplete, or obfuscatory;
4. The strict codes regarding hospitality and the safety of travelers
were immaterial, and;
5. The concubine of the man of Gilbeah was a male.


The religious landscape:

We should also remember that the monotheism of Judaism was in strict
competition with many other religions of the time, some of which
practiced anal sex as a way to gain their god's favor. Specifically,
those gods were: Inana, Anath, Molech, Ishtar, Baal, and Asherah. These
gods had both male and female priests and having sex with those priests
was an act of worship designed to bring about the fertility of fields
and to ensure childbirth.

The Bible even records a specific instance of one of these fertility
practices: The use of "love-apples" (or mandrakes) to conceive. (Genesis
30:14-17 (Rachel bargains with Leah for the "love-apples" so that she
might spend the night sexually with Jacob.))

These Gods were popular. Molech is mentioned several times: Leviticus
18:21, 20:2-5; 1Kings 11:5; 2 Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 32:35; Acts 7:43.

Baal, next on the "popularity poll," gets a few more mentions: Judges
2:11-13, 6:25-32; 1Samuel 7:4; 1Kings 16:31-32, 18:18&40, 19:18; 2Kings
3:2, 10:18-25, 11:18, 21:3, 23:4-5; 2Chronicles 24:7, 28:2, 33:3;
Jeremiah 2:8&23, 7:9, 23:13; Hosea 2:13-17, 13:1.

The most liked of all -- at least by way of mentions in the Bible -- was
Asherah, sometimes referred to as The Queen of the Heavens. She was also
called the consort of God or "Elat," which is the female form of the
Caananite's name for God: "El". She gets a direct mention in 2Kings
23:7. Her worshipers were called the Ashtoreths, and they and their
worship are mentioned a breathtaking number of times in the Bible:
Deuteronomy 16:21; Judges 2:13, 3:7, 6:28, 10:6; 1Samuel 7:3-4, 12:10,
31:10; 1Kings 11:5&33, 14:15&23, 15:13, 18:19; 2Kings 13:6, 17:10&16,
18:4, 21:3-7, 23:13-14; 2Chronicles 14:3, 17:6, 19:3, 24:18, 34:3-4;
Isaiah 17:8, 27:9; Jeremiah 17:2; and Micah 5:14.

So, what we have here is the authors of the Old Testament expressing a
demand that the Israelites give their loyalty and fealty to the ONE GOD
(ignoring the implied impressing of servitude in Proverbs 8:22 of
course), lest they face judgment. This was to be accomplished via the
Holiness Code; whose one major emphases was to protect the Israelites
from idolatry and help them distinguish between magical and faithful
thinking. This was indeed a problem, as can be witnessed by at least one
incident involving Jacob's wife and some terafim, or small idols, in
Genesis 31:33-35. Pagan influences can STILL be seen in Christianity
today. Ever ever wondered what Bacchus -- the ancient Greek god of
carnal pleasures and "partying" who is featured in the Bacchus Parade
held during Mardi Gras -- has to do with Christianity? Simple: He was an
influence who -- much like Mithras -- just could not be stamped out and
was thus "adopted into" this new, budding faith.

The Holiness Code had nothing to do with homosexuality as we understand
it today. The prohibitions against homosexual sex acts were meant to
keep the people in God's thrall -- and note that there are no
prohibitions against homosexuals themselves anywhere in the Bible.
Generally speaking, Old Testament proscriptions against homosexual
behavior are culturally bound, serving a distinct purpose whose time has
passed. They stem from the times of the Hebrew tribes wandering in the
wilderness and settling in Canaan. The Hebrews needed strict moral laws
governing social behavior, dietary habits and social interaction to
enforce their distinct uniqueness as a group of people. The laws
separated the Hebrews from the rest of the rabble. These proscriptions
were later codified during the crisis of the Babylonian Captivity, when
the Jews needed strict religious laws to insure their cultural survival
as a separate ("holy") people in an alien land, nothing more, nothing
less.

An example of this may be found in Deuteronomy 23:17-18:
"None of the daughters of Israel shall be a temple prostitute; none of
the sons of Israel shall be a temple prostitute. You shall not bring the
fee of a prostitute or the wages of a male prostitute into the house of
the Lord your God in payment for any vow, for both of these are
abhorrent to the Lord your God."

Many early gods -- Molech for instance -- had "temple prostitutes" which
one could obtain "blessings" from for a bit of coinage. There were both
male and female qadeshim available for different types of blessings.
Most of Molech's male temple prostitutes were young boys, since youth
was important. Most of the "customers" were heterosexual, and it was
easier to entice them with effeminate adolescents. Many fundamentalists
still remember that state of affairs, and try to accuse homosexuals of
being pedophiles, simply because they forget that it wasn't until God
arrived on the scene that it was suddenly immoral for men to be screwing
boys. And it would shock them to the core to travel back in time and see
heterosexuals dallying in homosexuality.

Leviticus 18:21 is a command not to "pass the seed through the fire,"
which is a prohibition against dedicating ones' child to be a temple
prostitute. For a man to seek the "blessings of Molech" with one of
Molech's male temple prostitutes was rather common. Bolstering that
admonition, we have Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 which read:
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination...
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed
an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them."

The operative cultural bias here is that it is an abomination to treat
another man like a woman. Males were thought to be made in the image of
God; thus homosexual behavior would be seen through the heterosexual
majority's eyes as violating the image of God.

Furthermore, the "detestable" nature of lying "as a woman" refers to a
male's assuming the PASSIVE role in anal intercourse, which was held to
be an "abomination" since a male was taking on the inferior status of
women. Apparently it does not view the "active" role in anal intercourse
as an abomination, nor other homosexual acts. (I.e., fellatio, mutual
masturbation, and "sensual massage")

It's important to note that these verses, and all the others condemning
homosexual sex, are denouncing the act of male-male sex. They do not,
however, cast sentence on what we refer to in modern times as
homosexuality. Note the lack of any mention of two women having sex
being and act worthy of death for instance. People using Leviticus to
condemn homosexuality are missing the point. The verses in question are
chastising those who are male, and who choose to seek the blessings of
any deity other than God. (Thus ruining the concept of monotheism.) Now
since Molech was one of God's competitors, and since Molech had male
prostitutes, it is only logical that such items should be mentioned as
being "bad things." It is a prohibition against seeking blessings from
Molech, not a condemnation against seeking the love of another human
being.


Closing thoughts:

Has the point sunk in yet? The Holiness Codes, and similar systems that
are found in the Old Testament, were there to make absolutely certain
someone converted to Judaism and did not stray into pagan religions of
the time. Same-sex intercourse was practiced by some of the pagan
religions, and thus we see the Old Testament condemning that act because
of what it represents in the eyes of the authors: straying from the
fealty of Yahweh. Not only did the ancient religious leaders seek to
keep the Israelites from participating in temple prostitution, they
sought to eliminate ALL such pagan practices, regardless of orientation.
(It took the Israelites some 700 years to fully abandon their previous
religious beliefs and worship God alone.)

More to the point: the Israelites were instinctively concerned with
maximizing the probabilities of procreation. Religious laws governing
sexual practices reinforced that basic tribal concern. Centuries later,
when the Jews were enslaved in Babylon and the Holiness Code took the
form we know today, such religious laws reinforced the Jews' sense of
being a people set apart from the cultural practices around them. Today
we understand the dignity of women, human sexuality in general, and
homosexuality in particular in ways inconceivable to the ancient priests
who compiled Leviticus. As Christians, we are freed from the Law and
saved by grace (Romans 7:6; Galatians 5:4-6, Titus 1:15).

So, ANY unrepentant sinners -- violators of the Holiness Code -- will be
in Hell along with those "Sodomites" they so despise; unless one is
willing to concede the point that these are historical rules meant to be
examined in light of history. When Jesus came along and fulfilled the
scriptures, we see that he brought a message of unconditional love. So,
before one more person talks any more about how those fill-in-the-blanks
will burn in fiery damnation, maybe we should all bust open our
fun-filled copies of Exodus to discover why we might have first class
reservations in Motel Hell. (I know I do. I'm wearing a cotton/polyester
blend shirt, which is a definite no-no and I had a haircut last week
just before I went to Red Lobster for dinner. I am truly evil incarnate
according to the Holiness Code.)


Which brings up other questions:

- How come we never see people condemning those against immigration: as
Exodus 22:23 demands? (You shall not wrong or oppress a stranger, for
you were strangers in the land of Egypt.) I guess the Nativist Party is
going to Hell along with anybody against immigration.
- What about Exodus 22:2? (If a thief is found breaking in, and is
beaten to death, no bloodguilt is incurred; BUT if it happens after
sunrise, bloodguilt is incurred). All you need is a Timex to get off the
hook. Right?
- How about Exodus 22:25? (If you lend money to my people; to the poor
among you, you shall not deal with them as a creditor; you shall not
exact interest from them.) Hmm... Looks like the whole banking industry
is Hell-bound with those evil "Sodomites" too!
- And what of those who despise the President, or their local Governor
or Mayor? Exodus 22:28 (You shall not curse God, or curse a leader of
your people.)
- For all you graduates of "tough love" out there, may I present Exodus
21:17 (Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.)
- And for all you premaritals: Exodus 22:16 (When a man seduces a virgin
who is not engaged to be married, and lies with her, he shall pay the
"bride price" for her and make her his wife. But if her father refuses
to GIVE her to him, he shall pay an amount equal to the "bride price"
for virgins.

And what if this whole Sodom thing is merely an attempt to convince as
many people as possible to "join the party" with all the "believers" who
will also find themselves attending the eternal bar-b-q? What if this
entire "Sodom equals homosexuality" ploy is nothing more than a baseless
perversion of God's word? Perhaps something that was originally
well-intended, but which now has gone horribly awry. What of that?

We've seen the refutation of "Sodom equals homosexual" by the Bible's
own words. The prohibitions imposed against the Israelites were lifted
by both God and Jesus. (By Jesus in Matthew 6:25 and Mark 7:15. God
gives Peter a vision stating the same in Acts 10:9-15. And Paul echoes
those thoughts in Romans 7:6; Galatians 5:4-6, and Titus 1:15.) Those
seeking to vilify homosexuals and whom contend that they are sinful and
damned by God, simply because of a mistaken belief in ancient purity
codes -- which have been revoked by God and Jesus -- need to be
corrected. The perversion of God's word is punishable by eternal
damnation. (Revelation 22:18-19) Let us see to it that no more go to
Hell than need be.

The Bible has been manipulated and "edited" throughout time for
political gain and other less-than-holy objectives. Peruse a small essay
on the contents of the Bible or one which deals with some curious
"translations" and editings of Christianity's holy book if you like. One
doesn't need to dig too deeply to see that certain things are being
artificially placed into the Bible. A person with eyes and two working
neurons can see that some people are using distortions of the Word for
their own personal gain. The question is what to do about such things.

Let's set about correcting a dangerous myth before any more souls are
lost to the fiery depths of Hell. After all, Christians are charged with
spreading the Word, not some perversion of it...

------------------------------------------------

Bibliography

* A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and
Islam by Karen Armstrong. (Alfred A. Knopf, 1993)
* The Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead by R. O. Falkner. (Brittish
Museum, London, 1985)
* The Dictionary of World Myth by Peter Bently, general editor. (Facts
On File, Duncan Baird Publishers 1995)
* The Holy Bible, 3rd Edition by White Harvest Software, Inc. (White
Harvest Software, 1995)
* The Larousse Desk Reference, James Hughes general editor (Larousse
Kingfisher Chambers Inc., 1995)
* The Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia (versions 6.03 and 7.05) by
Grolier Inc. (Grolier Electronic Publishing, 1993 and 1995)
* The World of the Bible by Roberta L. Harris. (Thames and Hudson Ltd. 1995)

Peace,
• Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian

The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk

Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org

The Bible Site - help provide free scripture
http://www.thebiblesite.org

To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

Another attempt by a homosexual to sugar coat Scriptures
to make it look like Jesus turned his eyes from the Truth to
make it look like He was okay with Homosexuality! Just be-
cause He didn't speak to it! The real challenge is why He did
not make any mention of it as being now okay? Just because
He made no mention of it does not give one the right to assume
it is now okay!
The Word of God is very clear on Homosexualism in that it is
not only spoken of as an Abomination unto to God but was
written about in The New Testament as still being a sin! No
matter how one looks at Homosexualism, it was a sin in The
Old Testament and is still a sin in The New Testament! No
matter how one slices and dices the subject, God's Word is
still against it
--
May God continue to richly Bless you!
Peace and Love in The Name of Jesus Christ!
Sincerely,
Ben mitts
".. Feed your Faith, starve your doubts ..."
From The Word of God: And as Moses lifted up the serpent
in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted
up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life."
Similarly, God so loved the world, that He gave His only
begotten Son, that who ever believes in Him should not
perish, but Have Eternal life.
.
User: "Rowland Croucher"

Title: Re: Name calling 27 May 2005 12:44:50 AM
"Ben Mitts" <bmitts10@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:42967F32.7040402@comcast.net...

• Ninure Saunders wrote:

<>

Another attempt by a homosexual to sugar coat Scriptures
to make it look like Jesus turned his eyes from the Truth to
make it look like He was okay with Homosexuality! Just be-
cause He didn't speak to it! The real challenge is why He did
not make any mention of it as being now okay? Just because
He made no mention of it does not give one the right to assume
it is now okay!

The Word of God is very clear on Homosexualism in that it is
not only spoken of as an Abomination unto to God but was
written about in The New Testament as still being a sin! No
matter how one looks at Homosexualism, it was a sin in The
Old Testament and is still a sin in The New Testament! No
matter how one slices and dices the subject, God's Word is
still against it

<>

Sincerely,
Ben mitts

The biblical people were not aware of the *orientation* we call
homosexuality (or your 'homosexualism' - now there's a word I've not seen
before :-)
--
*
Shalom! Rowland Croucher
* *
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ *
(15000+ articles, 3200 clean jokes/stories)
*
.
User: "~ vera ~"

Title: Re: Name calling 27 May 2005 03:14:29 PM
"Rowland Croucher" <rccroucher@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:4296b3d1$0$5534$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...



"Ben Mitts" <bmitts10@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:42967F32.7040402@comcast.net...

. Ninure Saunders wrote:

<>

Another attempt by a homosexual to sugar coat Scriptures
to make it look like Jesus turned his eyes from the Truth to
make it look like He was okay with Homosexuality! Just be-
cause He didn't speak to it! The real challenge is why He did
not make any mention of it as being now okay? Just because
He made no mention of it does not give one the right to assume
it is now okay!

The Word of God is very clear on Homosexualism in that it is
not only spoken of as an Abomination unto to God but was
written about in The New Testament as still being a sin! No
matter how one looks at Homosexualism, it was a sin in The
Old Testament and is still a sin in The New Testament! No
matter how one slices and dices the subject, God's Word is
still against it

<>

Sincerely,
Ben mitts


The biblical people were not aware of the *orientation* we call
homosexuality (or your 'homosexualism' - now there's a word I've not seen
before :-)

Sodomie???
Where does that word come from????

--
*
Shalom! Rowland Croucher
* *
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ *
(15000+ articles, 3200 clean jokes/stories)

*

~ vera ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de ~
~ http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm ~
~ http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Growing-Deeper ~
~ http://www.e-sword.net ~
.
User: "Midjis"

Title: Re: Name calling 27 May 2005 05:33:18 PM
"~ vera ~" <verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote :

Sodomie???

Where does that word come from????

This argument would be stronger if there was a comparable usage in the
Bible. There isn't. A Sodomite in the Bible is one who dwells in the city
of Sodom. What a Sodomite has become to later generations has nothing to
do with it, since the interpretation of the sin of the Sodomites as anal
sex (whether homosexual or otherwise) was applied many years later.
And incidentally, what were they up to in Gomorrah at the time? What is
Gomorry, do you think?
.

User: "Rowland Croucher"

Title: Re: Name calling 27 May 2005 11:01:01 PM
"~ vera ~" <verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote in message
news:3fpddbF8u3a8U1@individual.net...


"Rowland Croucher" <rccroucher@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:4296b3d1$0$5534$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...



"Ben Mitts" <bmitts10@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:42967F32.7040402@comcast.net...

. Ninure Saunders wrote:

<>

Another attempt by a homosexual to sugar coat Scriptures
to make it look like Jesus turned his eyes from the Truth to
make it look like He was okay with Homosexuality! Just be-
cause He didn't speak to it! The real challenge is why He did
not make any mention of it as being now okay? Just because
He made no mention of it does not give one the right to assume
it is now okay!

The Word of God is very clear on Homosexualism in that it is
not only spoken of as an Abomination unto to God but was
written about in The New Testament as still being a sin! No
matter how one looks at Homosexualism, it was a sin in The
Old Testament and is still a sin in The New Testament! No
matter how one slices and dices the subject, God's Word is
still against it

<>

Sincerely,
Ben mitts


The biblical people were not aware of the *orientation* we call
homosexuality (or your 'homosexualism' - now there's a word I've not seen
before :-)


Sodomie???

Where does that word come from????

Do a Bible study on Sodom (all the references): what were its sins? Why are
the biblical lists different to ours?
--
*
Shalom! Rowland Croucher
* *
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ *
(15000+ articles, 3200 clean jokes/stories)
*
.
User: "~ vera ~"

Title: Re: Name calling 28 May 2005 05:19:34 PM
Rowland Croucher <rccroucher@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au> wrote:

"~ vera ~" <verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote in message
news:3fpddbF8u3a8U1@individual.net...


"Rowland Croucher" <rccroucher@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au>
schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4296b3d1$0$5534$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...



"Ben Mitts" <bmitts10@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:42967F32.7040402@comcast.net...

. Ninure Saunders wrote:

<>

Another attempt by a homosexual to sugar coat Scriptures
to make it look like Jesus turned his eyes from the Truth to
make it look like He was okay with Homosexuality! Just be-
cause He didn't speak to it! The real challenge is why He did
not make any mention of it as being now okay? Just because
He made no mention of it does not give one the right to assume
it is now okay!

The Word of God is very clear on Homosexualism in that it is
not only spoken of as an Abomination unto to God but was
written about in The New Testament as still being a sin! No
matter how one looks at Homosexualism, it was a sin in The
Old Testament and is still a sin in The New Testament! No
matter how one slices and dices the subject, God's Word is
still against it

<>

Sincerely,
Ben mitts


The biblical people were not aware of the *orientation* we call
homosexuality (or your 'homosexualism' - now there's a word I've
not seen before :-)


Sodomie???

Where does that word come from????



Do a Bible study on Sodom (all the references): what were its sins?
Why are the biblical lists different to ours?

What will the punishment be different from then?
The price for sin is death - now and then. That has not changed.
~ vera ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de ~
~ http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm ~
~ http://groups-beta.google.com/group/Growing-Deeper ~
~ http://www.e-sword.net ~
.


User: "Mark T spl@tfundies025"

Title: Re: Name calling 27 May 2005 07:08:13 PM
"~ vera ~" wrote:

The biblical people were not aware of the *orientation* we call
homosexuality (or your 'homosexualism' - now there's a word I've not seen
before :-)


Sodomie???

There's another word I've not seen before!!!!!!
Why can't fundamentalists spell???????
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
sodomy
. noun anal intercourse.
- DERIVATIVES sodomize (also sodomise) verb.
- ORIGIN from Latin peccatum Sodomiticum 'sin of Sodom' (after the Book of
Genesis chapter 19, which implies that the men of the town of Sodom in
ancient Palestine practised homosexual rape).
From http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/sodomy?view=uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note that this can also mean anal sex practised by married couples!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From http://www.themarriagebed.com/whatisokay.shtml
Anal "Intercourse"
Anal intercourse involves inserting the penis into the ***** instead of
the vagina. Many believe that the Bible speaks against this, but it does
not. Homosexual anal sex is forbidden, but then so is homosexual manual sex
or even homosexual kissing - thus we can not use homosexuality as a way of
proving that anal sex is wrong.
On the other hand, there are some very real, and potentially very
harmful, medical considerations with regards to this activity. First, the
***** is not "clean" from a bacterial standpoint, and anything which comes
into contact with the ***** can spread disease or infections.
Another problem is that the ***** is not designed for "two-way traffic,"
nor is it designed to be stretched open as far and for as long as anal sex
can cause. Those who practice anal sex repeat the mantra of "go slow and
use lots of lubricant;" unfortunately this is not always enough. We have
had discussions with a couple of women who suffered permanent problems from
anal sex even though they followed "the mantra." While such damage may be
very rare, it can be very serious, and may even require surgery.
Finally, the ***** is not as sturdy as the vagina, and does not heal as
easily. This can lead to tears that can be annoying at the very least.
So, while the Bible does