| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Antagonist for God" |
| Date: |
03 May 2005 06:36:53 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
On Tue, 3 May 2005 22:45:32 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
Forgive the top post.
This is what it comes down to, folks. I asked this
person a simple question, when this person started
making claims about a third temple and nuclear weapons
being prophesied in the Bible. My question was as
follows...
"Where does the Bible say that?"
When challenged, the responses were...
"Go eat some peas"
"Yea, right, whatever."
Now we see how the end timers approach the Biblical
prophecies. They make claims and then when their
claims are challenged Biblically, they attack you
personally, as this post below by this person shows.
I hope this person is proud of him/herself. I don't
think I would be, if this is all I had to offer, when
someone asks me where the Bible says something that I
claimed it says.
"who's that new bloke ?" a group of people ask as Pastor Dave appears in
paradise.
"I'm pastor dave, glad to meet you" he replies
"we're all glad to meet you" one of them replies
"what did you do on earth ?" another asks
"I can't remember, but I'm gald to be here" dave replies
"do you want to remember what you did" a tall thin man asks
"I don't know, should I or shouldn't I" he replies
"everyone sinned, I don't recommend it, we just ask just to make sure you
can't remember since many people have bad memories of earth, we all like to
start fresh" the tall thin man sais
"why do I arrive without memory" dave asks
"well think about it, if you sinned and remembered it could cause you to
struggle with sin again, you don't need that"
"I see, so forgetting everything is good"
"indeed it is, fancy a game of tennis?"
"Well kind off, but I don't remember what tennis is"
"That's ok we'll teach you"
They walk off to the most amazing tennis court ever, it is floating 100ft up
over a lake
"how does this tennis court float?" dave asks
"it works by gravitons" the tall thin man replies
"what's you're name" dave asks
"Tall Tim"
"Ok Tim you start"
Tim aces Dave 10 times
Dave doesn't know he is loosing out but he is happy anyways
"What you do is you hit the ball back to me dave"
"ok Tim I'll try"
soon enough Dave figures out tennis
Jesus appears "I'm going to teach you diving dave, just stand on the side of
the tennis court and jump in the water"
Dave jumps in, 20 minutes later dave reappears, "try again" Tim sais
over the day dave jumps in the water dozens of times
They all live happily ever after ...
The moral of this story ...
Keep things simple and try to forget ...
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Diana" |
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| Title: Re: Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
03 May 2005 09:39:13 PM |
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"Antagonist for God" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
message news:rh2g71dep0g60hqip00qg0vlg0a2frcpt2@4ax.com...
On Tue, 3 May 2005 22:45:32 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
Forgive the top post.
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
Oh no ! ! ! This can not be. Is this the Dave that called me lazy for top
posting??? Nawww just can't be. Well by golly lookie at what I found...I do
believe it was Dave so Dave is this one of your lazy days? See even you are
human once in a while
Newsgroups: alt.christnet.christianlife
From: Pastor Dave <nospam-draym...@minister.com> - Find messages by
this author
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:15:44 GMT
Local: Mon,Jan 12 2004 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: Faith
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original
| Report Abuse
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:37:04 -0500, "Diana" <<:
)))))><<> spake thusly:
Then where is he now?
1) Don't top post. It's lazy and rude.
2) It sounds as if you aren't willing to listen, but
rather, are looking to insult.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
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| User: "stone" |
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| Title: Re: Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 01:12:36 AM |
|
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Antagonist for God wrote in message ...
On Tue, 3 May 2005 22:45:32 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
Forgive the top post.
This is what it comes down to, folks. I asked this
person a simple question, when this person started
making claims about a third temple and nuclear weapons
being prophesied in the Bible. My question was as
follows...
"Where does the Bible say that?"
The temple in Ezekiel 41 might be the 3rd temple. The antichrist might sit
in that one pretending to be God, during the final 31/2 years till the end.
That temple might also last into the millenial reign of Christ.
I write this for others to read since your ideas about prophecy are messed
up in the extreme, Dave.
You deny antichrist
You deny a future tribulation
You deny millenial reign
The nuclear bombs idea can come from some of the punishments in Revelation
look like the effects of nuclear war, and also, in Dan. 11, which I believe
will happen during the tribulaion period conscerning the antichrist, it
talks about him forecasting devices.
If antichrist will forecast devices, around the time of the tribulation, and
you have effects around that time that look like the effects of nuclear war,
then you can surmise nuclear weapons being used in the future tribulation
period.
Again I post this for others to read since your ideas about prophecy are
messed up in the extreme, Dave.
Daniel 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the
king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be
stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not
stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
A real Christian can really be saved with messed up ideas about prophecy; I
realize that.
Prophecy accuracy is not a requirement for salvation.
When challenged, the responses were...
"Go eat some peas"
"Yea, right, whatever."
Now we see how the end timers approach the Biblical
prophecies. They make claims and then when their
claims are challenged Biblically, they attack you
personally, as this post below by this person shows.
I hope this person is proud of him/herself. I don't
think I would be, if this is all I had to offer, when
someone asks me where the Bible says something that I
claimed it says.
"who's that new bloke ?" a group of people ask as Pastor Dave appears in
paradise.
"I'm pastor dave, glad to meet you" he replies
"we're all glad to meet you" one of them replies
"what did you do on earth ?" another asks
"I can't remember, but I'm gald to be here" dave replies
"do you want to remember what you did" a tall thin man asks
"I don't know, should I or shouldn't I" he replies
"everyone sinned, I don't recommend it, we just ask just to make sure you
can't remember since many people have bad memories of earth, we all like
to
start fresh" the tall thin man sais
"why do I arrive without memory" dave asks
"well think about it, if you sinned and remembered it could cause you to
struggle with sin again, you don't need that"
"I see, so forgetting everything is good"
"indeed it is, fancy a game of tennis?"
"Well kind off, but I don't remember what tennis is"
"That's ok we'll teach you"
They walk off to the most amazing tennis court ever, it is floating 100ft
up
over a lake
"how does this tennis court float?" dave asks
"it works by gravitons" the tall thin man replies
"what's you're name" dave asks
"Tall Tim"
"Ok Tim you start"
Tim aces Dave 10 times
Dave doesn't know he is loosing out but he is happy anyways
"What you do is you hit the ball back to me dave"
"ok Tim I'll try"
soon enough Dave figures out tennis
Jesus appears "I'm going to teach you diving dave, just stand on the side
of
the tennis court and jump in the water"
Dave jumps in, 20 minutes later dave reappears, "try again" Tim sais
over the day dave jumps in the water dozens of times
They all live happily ever after ...
The moral of this story ...
Keep things simple and try to forget ...
--
Antagonist for God
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 01:31:27 AM |
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On 4 May 2005 06:12:36 GMT, "stone"
<antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> spake thusly:
Antagonist for God wrote in message ...
On Tue, 3 May 2005 22:45:32 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
Forgive the top post.
This is what it comes down to, folks. I asked this
person a simple question, when this person started
making claims about a third temple and nuclear weapons
being prophesied in the Bible. My question was as
follows...
"Where does the Bible say that?"
The temple in Ezekiel 41 might be the 3rd temple.
So, "might be" is how we are to teach people what the
Bible says? Isn't that interesting.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 01:34:02 AM |
|
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On 4 May 2005 06:12:36 GMT, "stone"
<antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> spake thusly:
The temple in Ezekiel 41 might be the 3rd temple. The antichrist might sit
in that one pretending to be God, during the final 31/2 years till the end.
So then, we preach something and tell people that the
Bible says such and such and that the 3rd temple will
be built and that the Bible talks about nuclear war and
then ridicule those who disagree with these newspaper
prophecies, when in reality, all the end timers have,
is "might be". Gotcha. (:
That temple might also last into the millenial reign of Christ.
I write this for others to read since your ideas about prophecy are messed
up in the extreme, Dave.
Really? I'm not the one who is so brain washed, that
they don't even realize that there is no such thing as
Christ reigning on Earth for 1,000 years.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "yeah right whatever" |
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| Title: : Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 05:12:22 AM |
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Really? I'm not the one who is so brain washed, that
they don't even realize that there is no such thing as
Christ reigning on Earth for 1,000 years.
Rev 20v4 "they came to life and reigned with Christ for a 1000 years"
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: : Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 06:26:08 AM |
|
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On Wed, 4 May 2005 11:12:22 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
Really? I'm not the one who is so brain washed, that
they don't even realize that there is no such thing as
Christ reigning on Earth for 1,000 years.
Rev 20v4 "they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a 1000 years"
I'm going to answer this in detail, in the hope that
you will begin to discuss the issue, rather than tell
me to, "Go eat some peas.". :)
Revelation 20:4 does not say anything about Jesus
coming to Earth to reign for 1,000 years.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
- Revelation 20:4
The fact is, that the term, "the thousand year reign of
Christ" does not appear anywhere in the Bible. That is
a misconstruction of what it actually says. In that
scenario, you have Jesus reigning here for a thousand
years and then getting booted off of His own throne by
Satan. Has that ever occurred to you? Have you ever
realized what your belief means?
Now, to address the issues, since there are a few
points to make regarding Revelation 20...
1) It does not say, "1,000 years". It says, "thousand
year". There is a difference. Numbers are
meaningless when said in numerical form like that,
since they aren't written that way in the Bible anyway.
2) Revelation 20:4 is the ONLY basis for this
"thousand year reign of Christ on Earth" argument by
the end timers. That is important to remember, since,
if it can be shown that the text is not saying that,
they MUST, MUST give up that belief, or admit to
believing in something the Bible doesn't teach, but
that they won't give up. So let's destroy that false
teaching, once and for all. On to the next point. :)
3) The Bible does not say that Christ reigns for a
thousand years. What it actually says, is...
"...and I saw the souls of *them* that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...
and *they* lived and reigned *with* Christ a
thousand years."
Note that it talks about how long those who were
beheaded reigned with Christ and not how long Christ
reigned. Since when is Christ's reign temporary?
Again, do you see what it is you're preaching here?
Christ leaving His throne that was promised to Him by
God, to sit on Earth for a thousand years and then get
booted, so Satan can take over again. Please! As I
said, since when is Christ's reign temporary?
The Bible clearly says that Christ's reign would be
forever...
Luke 1:31-33
31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and
bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of
the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER;
and of his kingdom there shall be NO END.
You have Scripture contradicting itself. As I said,
the passage discusses when those beheaded begin to
reign WITH Christ.
"...and THEY lived and reigned WITH Christ a thousand
years." - Revelation 20:4
It does not address when Christ began to reign, nor for
how long Christ reigns, but rather, only the reign of
the beheaded, WITH CHRIST.
If I say that I reigned with King Joey for one year,
does that mean that King Joey only reigned one year?
Better yet, if a woman marries a king who has held the
throne since he was 20 years old and that king is now
40 years old when they marry and she reigned with him
for 40 years, until he died, does that mean that her
husband the king only reigned for 40 years, or that SHE
reigned WITH him for 40 years?
No, it certainly does not mean that Christ began to
reign at that point. It only discusses when the
beheaded began to reign WITH HIM.
One man made tower comes toppling down. :)
You see, end timers are so eager to promote their
doctrines, which they learned from books ABOUT the
Bible and not from serious Bible study, letting the
Bible be the ruler by which they measure these
doctrines, that they read any and all passages
presented in light of their man made doctrine, instead
of the other way around. They'd rather have someone do
the work for them, than to have to sit there and
seriously study the Bible themselves. And if it comes
from lack of being able to understand Revelation, I can
certainly respect that it is the most difficult book in
the Bible. But what I don't respect, is those who
insist on defending doctrines of men, when shown that
those doctrines don't hold up under the light of
Scripture. That comes from ego and vanity, which
requires that the Bible be all about them, or it is of
no use at all. (:
Think of it this way. Jesus said His words would stand
forever. So tell me, if He returned tomorrow, what
then? Does His word cease to stand? Is He now a liar?
Of course not. So then, the value of the Bible is not
determined by whether or not Jesus has returned yet,
but rather, by the words He gave us.
4) Revelation 20 does not mention the Second Coming of
Christ.
5) Revelation 20 does not mention a reign on Earth. In
fact, it doesn't even mention Christ on Earth.
6) Revelation 20 does not mention a bodily
resurrection.
7) Revelation 20 does not even mention us. It says
that *THEY* lived and reigned with Christ for a
thousand years. Who are *THEY*? Those who were
beheaded for witnessing about Christ. And note, it
does NOT say they were BODILY resurrected. John said
he saw, "THE SOULS of them who were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus".
8) Since none of what I know you believe is mentioned
in Revelation 20:4, you are required to support your
doctrine with Scripture and not imagination, which is
all you have provided thus far.
More man made towers come toppling down. :)
9) The beheaded are in Heaven, not on Earth and have
spiritual bodies, not physical bodies and this
demonstrates that the victory is in the spiritual
world, not the physical world. The Pharisees were
waiting for a physical victory, but guess what? Jesus
said it was not going to happen (Luke 17:20-21). So
why do you take the Kingdom that Jesus said is within
us and that we would NOT be able to see and point at
and try to make it a physical kingdom on Earth, where
Jesus just begins to reign and only does so, for a
thousand years, before being booted by Satan? Is that
the Jesus YOU worship? (: It isn't the one I worship,
that's for sure!
10) The term "thousand" is always used symbolically,
when dealing with time and large numbers of people or
things, in the Scriptures. Reference the following
examples...
People and things:
Job 9:3; Psalm 50:10; Ecc 7:28
Time and generations:
Deut 7:9; 1 Chron 16:15; Psalm 90:4
There are more examples.
As I said, the Bible clearly states that Christ's reign
is forever...
Luke 1:31-33
31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and
bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of
the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER;
and of his kingdom there shall be NO END.
The "thousand year reign of Christ" is a fairy tale.
It isn't found in Scripture and the "thousand" is
symbolic of "eternity", as other Scripture shows.
Also, the passage does not mention Jesus on Earth.
John is still looking in Heaven when he sees what he
sees in Revelation 20:4 and what he sees is therefore
taking place in Heaven, not on Earth..
Another man made tower falls. :)
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
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| User: "yeah right whatever" |
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| Title: Re: : Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 11:27:36 AM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:kobh71dbi5audts3rb9v6qa7o5vv6iqda5@4ax.com...
On Wed, 4 May 2005 11:12:22 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
Really? I'm not the one who is so brain washed, that
they don't even realize that there is no such thing as
Christ reigning on Earth for 1,000 years.
Rev 20v4 "they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a 1000 years"
I'm going to answer this in detail, in the hope that
you will begin to discuss the issue, rather than tell
me to, "Go eat some peas.". :)
Revelation 20:4 does not say anything about Jesus
coming to Earth to reign for 1,000 years.
Oh yes it does
Rev 20:4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. NIV
and to make sure it's there twice
Rev 20:6 they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him
for a thousand years
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
- Revelation 20:4
The fact is, that the term, "the thousand year reign of
Christ" does not appear anywhere in the Bible.
You're saying
"the thousand year reign of Christ"
isn't
Rev 20:4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:6 they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him
for a thousand years
=
" there is no such thing as Christ reigning on Earth for 1,000 years."
The verses clearly say there is a 1000 year reign
That is
a misconstruction of what it actually says. In that
scenario, you have Jesus reigning here for a thousand
years and then getting booted off of His own throne by
Satan. Has that ever occurred to you? Have you ever
realized what your belief means?
Now, to address the issues, since there are a few
points to make regarding Revelation 20...
1) It does not say, "1,000 years". It says, "thousand
year".
Not in my bible NIV is good
There is a difference. Numbers are
meaningless when said in numerical form like that,
since they aren't written that way in the Bible anyway.
2) Revelation 20:4 is the ONLY basis for this
"thousand year reign of Christ on Earth" argument by
the end timers. That is important to remember, since,
if it can be shown that the text is not saying that,
they MUST, MUST give up that belief, or admit to
believing in something the Bible doesn't teach, but
that they won't give up. So let's destroy that false
teaching, once and for all. On to the next point. :)
Rev 20v4 = 1000 year reign of Christ ...
You say NO bible sais YES
THERE IS NO NEXT point ...
3) The Bible does not say that Christ reigns for a
thousand years. What it actually says, is...
Oh yes it does
Rev 20:4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:6 they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him
for a thousand years
"...and I saw the souls of *them* that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...
and *they* lived and reigned *with* Christ a
thousand years."
Note that it talks about how long those who were
beheaded reigned with Christ and not how long Christ
reigned. Since when is Christ's reign temporary?
Again, do you see what it is you're preaching here?
Christ leaving His throne that was promised to Him by
God, to sit on Earth for a thousand years and then get
booted, so Satan can take over again. Please! As I
said, since when is Christ's reign temporary?
who said it's temporary no-one you're implying things the verse doesn't say
The Bible clearly says that Christ's reign would be
forever...
Luke 1:31-33
31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and
bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of
the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER;
and of his kingdom there shall be NO END.
Correct
You have Scripture contradicting itself. As I said,
the passage discusses when those beheaded begin to
reign WITH Christ.
"...and THEY lived and reigned WITH Christ a thousand
years." - Revelation 20:4
It does not address when Christ began to reign, nor for
how long Christ reigns, but rather, only the reign of
the beheaded, WITH CHRIST.
Correct
If I say that I reigned with King Joey for one year,
does that mean that King Joey only reigned one year?
Better yet, if a woman marries a king who has held the
throne since he was 20 years old and that king is now
40 years old when they marry and she reigned with him
for 40 years, until he died, does that mean that her
husband the king only reigned for 40 years, or that SHE
reigned WITH him for 40 years?
No, it certainly does not mean that Christ began to
reign at that point. It only discusses when the
beheaded began to reign WITH HIM.
Correct
One man made tower comes toppling down. :)
Wrong there was no tower, you imagined it
You see, end timers are so eager to promote their
doctrines, which they learned from books
Where did you learn preterism from ? All the books you recommend are
preterist books, that statement is hypocritical
ABOUT the
Bible and not from serious Bible study, letting the
Bible be the ruler by which they measure these
doctrines, that they read any and all passages
presented in light of their man made doctrine, instead
of the other way around. They'd rather have someone do
the work for them, than to have to sit there and
seriously study the Bible themselves. And if it comes
from lack of being able to understand Revelation, I can
certainly respect that it is the most difficult book in
the Bible. But what I don't respect, is those who
insist on defending doctrines of men,
Which preterism is ! Another hypocritical statement
when shown that
those doctrines don't hold up under the light of
Scripture. That comes from ego and vanity, which
requires that the Bible be all about them, or it is of
no use at all. (:
Think of it this way. Jesus said His words would stand
forever. So tell me, if He returned tomorrow, what
then? Does His word cease to stand? Is He now a liar?
Of course not. So then, the value of the Bible is not
determined by whether or not Jesus has returned yet,
but rather, by the words He gave us.
4) Revelation 20 does not mention the Second Coming of
Christ.
5) Revelation 20 does not mention a reign on Earth. In
fact, it doesn't even mention Christ on Earth.
Where on the moon then ? Come on dave your talking like a crazy person, the
verse are clear.
Where do you think these people get ressurected ? On alpha centuri ? Please
.....
Rev 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the
EARTH
Rev 20:4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:6 they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him
for a thousand years
6) Revelation 20 does not mention a bodily
resurrection.
What kind of ressurection then ? You're going to tell us soon Christ wasn't
ressurected either ...
7) Revelation 20 does not even mention us. It says
that *THEY* lived and reigned with Christ for a
thousand years. Who are *THEY*? Those who were
beheaded for witnessing about Christ. And note, it
does NOT say they were BODILY resurrected. John said
he saw, "THE SOULS of them who were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus".
8) Since none of what I know you believe is mentioned
in Revelation 20:4, you are required to support your
doctrine with Scripture and not imagination, which is
all you have provided thus far.
More man made towers come toppling down. :)
The verses speak clear enough ... only a crazy theologian could distort them
so bad like you preterists ...
1000 years is a 1000 years to most people
Reigned is Reigned ...
Christ is Christ ...
What's not clear ...
Rev 20:4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:6 they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him
for a thousand years
9) The beheaded are in Heaven,
Where oh where does the bible say that ? Crazy ...
not on Earth and have
spiritual bodies, not physical bodies and this
demonstrates that the victory is in the spiritual
world, not the physical world. The Pharisees were
waiting for a physical victory, but guess what? Jesus
said it was not going to happen (Luke 17:20-21). So
why do you take the Kingdom that Jesus said is within
us and that we would NOT be able to see and point at
and try to make it a physical kingdom on Earth, where
Jesus just begins to reign and only does so, for a
thousand years, before being booted by Satan? Is that
the Jesus YOU worship? (: It isn't the one I worship,
that's for sure!
10) The term "thousand" is always used symbolically,
when dealing with time and large numbers of people or
things, in the Scriptures. Reference the following
examples...
People and things:
Job 9:3; Psalm 50:10; Ecc 7:28
Time and generations:
Deut 7:9; 1 Chron 16:15; Psalm 90:4
There are more examples.
As I said, the Bible clearly states that Christ's reign
is forever...
Luke 1:31-33
31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and
bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of
the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER;
and of his kingdom there shall be NO END.
The "thousand year reign of Christ" is a fairy tale.
It isn't found in Scripture and the "thousand" is
symbolic of "eternity", as other Scripture shows.
Also, the passage does not mention Jesus on Earth.
John is still looking in Heaven when he sees what he
sees in Revelation 20:4 and what he sees is therefore
taking place in Heaven, not on Earth..
Another man made tower falls. :)
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: : Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 03:41:56 PM |
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On Wed, 4 May 2005 17:27:36 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
You did not deal with the points I made. You responded
in a hurry and didn't bother to consider the fact that
the passage does not say anything about Christ on
Earth. It also says nothing about physically
resurrected bodies. It says that John (who was still
seeing in Heaven at that point, saw THE SOULS of
them that were beheaded, NOT THE BODIES.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
- Revelation 20:4
The Bible does not say that Christ reigns for a
thousand years. What it actually says, is...
"...and I saw the souls of *them* that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...
and *they* lived and reigned *with* Christ a
thousand years."
Note that it talks about how long those who were
beheaded reigned with Christ and not how long Christ
reigned.
You have Scripture contradicting itself. As I said,
the passage discusses when those beheaded begin to
reign WITH Christ.
"...and THEY lived and reigned WITH Christ a thousand
years." - Revelation 20:4
It does not address when Christ began to reign, nor for
how long Christ reigns, but rather, only the reign of
the beheaded, WITH CHRIST.
If I say that I reigned with King Joey for one year,
does that mean that King Joey only reigned one year?
Better yet, if a woman marries a king who has held the
throne since he was 20 years old and that king is now
40 years old when they marry and she reigned with him
for 40 years, until he died, does that mean that her
husband the king only reigned for 40 years, or that SHE
reigned WITH him for 40 years?
No, it certainly does not mean that Christ began to
reign at that point. It only discusses when the
beheaded began to reign WITH HIM.
Earth is not even mentioned in that passage. Again, it
says that John (who was still seeing in Heaven at that
point, saw THE SOULS of them that were beheaded,
NOT THE BODIES.
The beheaded are in Heaven, not on Earth and have
spiritual bodies, not physical bodies and this
demonstrates that the victory is in the spiritual
world, not the physical world.
The passage is not about Jesus reigning on Earth for
1,000 years.
And who says it's temporary, you ask? YOU, when you
claim it's for 1,000 years.
You make claims about preterism. The problem is, that
it is what you believe that is new. It has only been
since the early 1800's that what you believe has been
taught. According to you, Jesus, the Apostles and the
church have had it wrong for 1800 years.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "yeah right whatever" |
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| Title: Re: : Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 04:49:52 PM |
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You make claims about preterism. The problem is, that
it is what you believe that is new. It has only been
since the early 1800's that what you believe has been
taught. According to you, Jesus, the Apostles and the
church have had it wrong for 1800 years.
That's what your preterism books do, they re-write history, if you actually
look at the texts preterism is crazy a lie and a deception.
You are an expert in deception
Mt24v5 sais people will come and decieve people, preterism is part of that
group, by your very own definintions in your books, you claim the deception
against preterism has only been around since 1800 if so then that actually
makes the point that Mt24v5 is making in that if deceptions irregardless of
doctrines are increasing then Mt24v5 becomes more and more true, hence we
are increasing in the end times which means that there is no way possible
that it happened in 70ad, since if it did things would be better but as is
it thing currently are matching prophecy regarding the endtimes now far more
than ever before, preterist interpretation of the end time must be crazy
since now is far worse than 70ad regarding prophecy being fulfilled
globally.
You never made a point. The original argument was does Rev 20v4,6 mean what
is sais, there is no question as to whether the bible means what it sais
because it is written thus, for you and other decievers to come along and
make it say somethings else is deception and what satan wants to happen,
thus you must be working unknowingly for satan, since satan is a master
deciever.
If I wasn't here what is said wouldn't make no difference Rev 20v4,6 would
still say what it sais, with preterism and other cultic false doctrines it
takes a great deal of explaination to explain why verses don't mean what
they say.
THE BIBLE is not hard to understand, it sais what it means and means what it
sais ....
Preterism makes the bible out to be false since preterism is crazy, Jesus
hasn't returned, the end of the world wasn't in 70ad, satan would love you
to believe that since if Jesus returned in 70ad then why is the world in
such a mess, hence the bible has failed and hence your faith in the return
of christ is in vain.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: : Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 05:01:37 PM |
|
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On Wed, 4 May 2005 22:49:52 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
You make claims about preterism. The problem is, that
it is what you believe that is new. It has only been
since the early 1800's that what you believe has been
taught. According to you, Jesus, the Apostles and the
church have had it wrong for 1800 years.
That's what your preterism books do, they re-write history, if you actually
look at the texts preterism is crazy a lie and a deception.
You are an expert in deception
Mt24v5 sais people will come and decieve people, preterism is part of that
group, by your very own definintions in your books, you claim the deception
against preterism has only been around since 1800 if so then that actually
makes the point that Mt24v5 is making in that if deceptions irregardless of
doctrines are increasing then Mt24v5 becomes more and more true, hence we
are increasing in the end times which means that there is no way possible
that it happened in 70ad, since if it did things would be better but as is
it thing currently are matching prophecy regarding the endtimes now far more
than ever before, preterist interpretation of the end time must be crazy
since now is far worse than 70ad regarding prophecy being fulfilled
globally.
You never made a point. The original argument was does Rev 20v4,6 mean what
is sais, there is no question as to whether the bible means what it sais
because it is written thus, for you and other decievers to come along and
make it say somethings else is deception and what satan wants to happen,
thus you must be working unknowingly for satan, since satan is a master
deciever.
If I wasn't here what is said wouldn't make no difference Rev 20v4,6 would
still say what it sais, with preterism and other cultic false doctrines it
takes a great deal of explaination to explain why verses don't mean what
they say.
THE BIBLE is not hard to understand, it sais what it means and means what it
sais ....
Preterism makes the bible out to be false since preterism is crazy, Jesus
hasn't returned, the end of the world wasn't in 70ad, satan would love you
to believe that since if Jesus returned in 70ad then why is the world in
such a mess, hence the bible has failed and hence your faith in the return
of christ is in vain.
You did not respond to my points and instead attacked
me. I have no wish to see your messages any longer.
Goodbye.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "yeah right whatever" |
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| Title: Re: : Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 05:13:23 PM |
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You did not respond to my points and instead attacked
me. I have no wish to see your messages any longer.
Goodbye.
I hope that is a promise ...
MANY MANY people will be very glad if you join a preterist group and leave
us
GO join a preterist group you will be very welcomed
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Diana B" |
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| Title: Re: : Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 08:04:19 AM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On Wed, 4 May 2005 11:12:22 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
Really? I'm not the one who is so brain washed, that
they don't even realize that there is no such thing as
Christ reigning on Earth for 1,000 years.
Rev 20v4 "they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a 1000 years"
I'm going to answer this in detail, in the hope that
you will begin to discuss the issue, rather than tell
me to, "Go eat some peas.". :)
Revelation 20:4 does not say anything about Jesus
coming to Earth to reign for 1,000 years.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
- Revelation 20:4
The fact is, that the term, "the thousand year reign of
Christ" does not appear anywhere in the Bible. That is
a misconstruction of what it actually says. In that
scenario, you have Jesus reigning here for a thousand
years and then getting booted off of His own throne by
Satan. Has that ever occurred to you? Have you ever
realized what your belief means?
Now, to address the issues, since there are a few
points to make regarding Revelation 20...
1) It does not say, "1,000 years". It says, "thousand
year". There is a difference. Numbers are
meaningless when said in numerical form like that,
since they aren't written that way in the Bible anyway.
2) Revelation 20:4 is the ONLY basis for this
"thousand year reign of Christ on Earth" argument by
the end timers. That is important to remember, since,
if it can be shown that the text is not saying that,
they MUST, MUST give up that belief, or admit to
believing in something the Bible doesn't teach, but
that they won't give up. So let's destroy that false
teaching, once and for all. On to the next point. :)
3) The Bible does not say that Christ reigns for a
thousand years. What it actually says, is...
"...and I saw the souls of *them* that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...
and *they* lived and reigned *with* Christ a
thousand years."
Note that it talks about how long those who were
beheaded reigned with Christ and not how long Christ
reigned. Since when is Christ's reign temporary?
Again, do you see what it is you're preaching here?
Christ leaving His throne that was promised to Him by
God, to sit on Earth for a thousand years and then get
booted, so Satan can take over again. Please! As I
said, since when is Christ's reign temporary?
The Bible clearly says that Christ's reign would be
forever...
Luke 1:31-33
31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and
bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of
the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER;
and of his kingdom there shall be NO END.
You have Scripture contradicting itself. As I said,
the passage discusses when those beheaded begin to
reign WITH Christ.
"...and THEY lived and reigned WITH Christ a thousand
years." - Revelation 20:4
It does not address when Christ began to reign, nor for
how long Christ reigns, but rather, only the reign of
the beheaded, WITH CHRIST.
If I say that I reigned with King Joey for one year,
does that mean that King Joey only reigned one year?
Better yet, if a woman marries a king who has held the
throne since he was 20 years old and that king is now
40 years old when they marry and she reigned with him
for 40 years, until he died, does that mean that her
husband the king only reigned for 40 years, or that SHE
reigned WITH him for 40 years?
No, it certainly does not mean that Christ began to
reign at that point. It only discusses when the
beheaded began to reign WITH HIM.
One man made tower comes toppling down. :)
You see, end timers are so eager to promote their
doctrines, which they learned from books ABOUT the
Bible and not from serious Bible study, letting the
Bible be the ruler by which they measure these
doctrines, that they read any and all passages
presented in light of their man made doctrine, instead
of the other way around. They'd rather have someone do
the work for them, than to have to sit there and
seriously study the Bible themselves. And if it comes
from lack of being able to understand Revelation, I can
certainly respect that it is the most difficult book in
the Bible. But what I don't respect, is those who
insist on defending doctrines of men, when shown that
those doctrines don't hold up under the light of
Scripture. That comes from ego and vanity, which
requires that the Bible be all about them, or it is of
no use at all. (:
Think of it this way. Jesus said His words would stand
forever. So tell me, if He returned tomorrow, what
then? Does His word cease to stand? Is He now a liar?
Of course not. So then, the value of the Bible is not
determined by whether or not Jesus has returned yet,
but rather, by the words He gave us.
4) Revelation 20 does not mention the Second Coming of
Christ.
5) Revelation 20 does not mention a reign on Earth. In
fact, it doesn't even mention Christ on Earth.
6) Revelation 20 does not mention a bodily
resurrection.
7) Revelation 20 does not even mention us. It says
that *THEY* lived and reigned with Christ for a
thousand years. Who are *THEY*? Those who were
beheaded for witnessing about Christ. And note, it
does NOT say they were BODILY resurrected. John said
he saw, "THE SOULS of them who were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus".
8) Since none of what I know you believe is mentioned
in Revelation 20:4, you are required to support your
doctrine with Scripture and not imagination, which is
all you have provided thus far.
More man made towers come toppling down. :)
9) The beheaded are in Heaven, not on Earth and have
spiritual bodies, not physical bodies and this
demonstrates that the victory is in the spiritual
world, not the physical world. The Pharisees were
waiting for a physical victory, but guess what? Jesus
said it was not going to happen (Luke 17:20-21). So
why do you take the Kingdom that Jesus said is within
us and that we would NOT be able to see and point at
and try to make it a physical kingdom on Earth, where
Jesus just begins to reign and only does so, for a
thousand years, before being booted by Satan? Is that
the Jesus YOU worship? (: It isn't the one I worship,
that's for sure!
10) The term "thousand" is always used symbolically,
when dealing with time and large numbers of people or
things, in the Scriptures. Reference the following
examples...
People and things:
Job 9:3; Psalm 50:10; Ecc 7:28
Time and generations:
Deut 7:9; 1 Chron 16:15; Psalm 90:4
There are more examples.
As I said, the Bible clearly states that Christ's reign
is forever...
Luke 1:31-33
31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and
bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of
the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER;
and of his kingdom there shall be NO END.
The "thousand year reign of Christ" is a fairy tale.
It isn't found in Scripture and the "thousand" is
symbolic of "eternity", as other Scripture shows.
Also, the passage does not mention Jesus on Earth.
John is still looking in Heaven when he sees what he
sees in Revelation 20:4 and what he sees is therefore
taking place in Heaven, not on Earth..
Another man made tower falls. :)
Thank you Dave. Can I use this to show others? You explain it much
better than I.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: : Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 06:35:33 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 4 May 2005 11:12:22 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
Really? I'm not the one who is so brain washed, that
they don't even realize that there is no such thing as
Christ reigning on Earth for 1,000 years.
Rev 20v4 "they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a 1000 years"
I'm going to answer this in detail, in the hope that
you will begin to discuss the issue, rather than tell
me to, "Go eat some peas.". :)
Revelation 20:4 does not say anything about Jesus
coming to Earth to reign for 1,000 years.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
- Revelation 20:4
The fact is, that the term, "the thousand year reign of
Christ" does not appear anywhere in the Bible. That is
a misconstruction of what it actually says. In that
scenario, you have Jesus reigning here for a thousand
years and then getting booted off of His own throne by
Satan. Has that ever occurred to you? Have you ever
realized what your belief means?
Now, to address the issues, since there are a few
points to make regarding Revelation 20...
1) It does not say, "1,000 years". It says, "thousand
year". There is a difference. Numbers are
meaningless when said in numerical form like that,
since they aren't written that way in the Bible anyway.
2) Revelation 20:4 is the ONLY basis for this
"thousand year reign of Christ on Earth" argument by
the end timers. That is important to remember, since,
if it can be shown that the text is not saying that,
they MUST, MUST give up that belief, or admit to
believing in something the Bible doesn't teach, but
that they won't give up. So let's destroy that false
teaching, once and for all. On to the next point. :)
3) The Bible does not say that Christ reigns for a
thousand years. What it actually says, is...
"...and I saw the souls of *them* that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...
and *they* lived and reigned *with* Christ a
thousand years."
Note that it talks about how long those who were
beheaded reigned with Christ and not how long Christ
reigned. Since when is Christ's reign temporary?
Again, do you see what it is you're preaching here?
Christ leaving His throne that was promised to Him by
God, to sit on Earth for a thousand years and then get
booted, so Satan can take over again. Please! As I
said, since when is Christ's reign temporary?
The Bible clearly says that Christ's reign would be
forever...
Luke 1:31-33
31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and
bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of
the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER;
and of his kingdom there shall be NO END.
You have Scripture contradicting itself. As I said,
the passage discusses when those beheaded begin to
reign WITH Christ.
"...and THEY lived and reigned WITH Christ a thousand
years." - Revelation 20:4
It does not address when Christ began to reign, nor for
how long Christ reigns, but rather, only the reign of
the beheaded, WITH CHRIST.
If I say that I reigned with King Joey for one year,
does that mean that King Joey only reigned one year?
Better yet, if a woman marries a king who has held the
throne since he was 20 years old and that king is now
40 years old when they marry and she reigned with him
for 40 years, until he died, does that mean that her
husband the king only reigned for 40 years, or that SHE
reigned WITH him for 40 years?
No, it certainly does not mean that Christ began to
reign at that point. It only discusses when the
beheaded began to reign WITH HIM.
One man made tower comes toppling down. :)
You see, end timers are so eager to promote their
doctrines, which they learned from books ABOUT the
Bible and not from serious Bible study, letting the
Bible be the ruler by which they measure these
doctrines, that they read any and all passages
presented in light of their man made doctrine, instead
of the other way around. They'd rather have someone do
the work for them, than to have to sit there and
seriously study the Bible themselves. And if it comes
from lack of being able to understand Revelation, I can
certainly respect that it is the most difficult book in
the Bible. But what I don't respect, is those who
insist on defending doctrines of men, when shown that
those doctrines don't hold up under the light of
Scripture. That comes from ego and vanity, which
requires that the Bible be all about them, or it is of
no use at all. (:
Think of it this way. Jesus said His words would stand
forever. So tell me, if He returned tomorrow, what
then? Does His word cease to stand? Is He now a liar?
Of course not. So then, the value of the Bible is not
determined by whether or not Jesus has returned yet,
but rather, by the words He gave us.
4) Revelation 20 does not mention the Second Coming of
Christ.
5) Revelation 20 does not mention a reign on Earth. In
fact, it doesn't even mention Christ on Earth.
6) Revelation 20 does not mention a bodily
resurrection.
7) Revelation 20 does not even mention us. It says
that *THEY* lived and reigned with Christ for a
thousand years. Who are *THEY*? Those who were
beheaded for witnessing about Christ. And note, it
does NOT say they were BODILY resurrected. John said
he saw, "THE SOULS of them who were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus".
8) Since none of what I know you believe is mentioned
in Revelation 20:4, you are required to support your
doctrine with Scripture and not imagination, which is
all you have provided thus far.
More man made towers come toppling down. :)
9) The beheaded are in Heaven, not on Earth and have
spiritual bodies, not physical bodies and this
demonstrates that the victory is in the spiritual
world, not the physical world. The Pharisees were
waiting for a physical victory, but guess what? Jesus
said it was not going to happen (Luke 17:20-21). So
why do you take the Kingdom that Jesus said is within
us and that we would NOT be able to see and point at
and try to make it a physical kingdom on Earth, where
Jesus just begins to reign and only does so, for a
thousand years, before being booted by Satan? Is that
the Jesus YOU worship? (: It isn't the one I worship,
that's for sure!
10) The term "thousand" is always used symbolically,
when dealing with time and large numbers of people or
things, in the Scriptures. Reference the following
examples...
People and things:
Job 9:3; Psalm 50:10; Ecc 7:28
Time and generations:
Deut 7:9; 1 Chron 16:15; Psalm 90:4
There are more examples.
As I said, the Bible clearly states that Christ's reign
is forever...
Luke 1:31-33
31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and
bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of
the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER;
and of his kingdom there shall be NO END.
The "thousand year reign of Christ" is a fairy tale.
It isn't found in Scripture and the "thousand" is
symbolic of "eternity", as other Scripture shows.
Also, the passage does not mention Jesus on Earth.
John is still looking in Heaven when he sees what he
sees in Revelation 20:4 and what he sees is therefore
taking place in Heaven, not on Earth..
Another man made tower falls. :)
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Visscher" |
|
| Title: Re: : Our dearly loved Pastor Dave in paradise |
04 May 2005 10:15:04 AM |
|
|
Pastor Dave,
Vera is saying that she has blocked my e-mail as she did with yours. In her
eyes I am not anylonger a fundamentalist. I must admit I have never been. I
have been grown up with Trinity but found Onesnes more logical. I am someone
in between, Need further study to decide what I am going to be. People think
that fundamentalists are better people. It makes a difference what kind of
fundamentalists they are.
Albert
--
Read full story on:
http://christiancommunitytoday.blogspot.com/
Christian Community Today
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:qrch71pgqobgdsimea3e4ha9joke2ptdk4@4ax.com...
On Wed, 4 May 2005 11:12:22 +0100, "yeah right
whatever" <u2fan@agentsmiths.com> spake thusly:
Really? I'm not the one who is so brain washed, that
they don't even realize that there is no such thing as
Christ reigning on Earth for 1,000 years.
Rev 20v4 "they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a 1000 years"
I'm going to answer this in detail, in the hope that
you will begin to discuss the issue, rather than tell
me to, "Go eat some peas.". :)
Revelation 20:4 does not say anything about Jesus
coming to Earth to reign for 1,000 years.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived
and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
- Revelation 20:4
The fact is, that the term, "the thousand year reign of
Christ" does not appear anywhere in the Bible. That is
a misconstruction of what it actually says. In that
scenario, you have Jesus reigning here for a thousand
years and then getting booted off of His own throne by
Satan. Has that ever occurred to you? Have you ever
realized what your belief means?
Now, to address the issues, since there are a few
points to make regarding Revelation 20...
1) It does not say, "1,000 years". It says, "thousand
year". There is a difference. Numbers are
meaningless when said in numerical form like that,
since they aren't written that way in the Bible anyway.
2) Revelation 20:4 is the ONLY basis for this
"thousand year reign of Christ on Earth" argument by
the end timers. That is important to remember, since,
if it can be shown that the text is not saying that,
they MUST, MUST give up that belief, or admit to
believing in something the Bible doesn't teach, but
that they won't give up. So let's destroy that false
teaching, once and for all. On to the next point. :)
3) The Bible does not say that Christ reigns for a
thousand years. What it actually says, is...
"...and I saw the souls of *them* that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...
and *they* lived and reigned *with* Christ a
thousand years."
Note that it talks about how long those who were
beheaded reigned with Christ and not how long Christ
reigned. Since when is Christ's reign temporary?
Again, do you see what it is you're preaching here?
Christ leaving His throne that was promised to Him by
God, to sit on Earth for a thousand years and then get
booted, so Satan can take over again. Please! As I
said, since when is Christ's reign temporary?
The Bible clearly says that Christ's reign would be
forever...
Luke 1:31-33
31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and
bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of
the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER;
and of his kingdom there shall be NO END.
You have Scripture contradicting itself. As I said,
the passage discusses when those beheaded begin to
reign WITH Christ.
"...and THEY lived and reigned WITH Christ a thousand
years." - Revelation 20:4
It does not address when Christ began to reign, nor for
how long Christ reigns, but rather, only the reign of
the beheaded, WITH CHRIST.
If I say that I reigned with King Joey for one year,
does that mean that King Joey only reigned one year?
Better yet, if a woman marries a king who has held the
throne since he was 20 years old and that king is now
40 years old when they marry and she reigned with him
for 40 years, until he died, does that mean that her
husband the king only reigned for 40 years, or that SHE
reigned WITH him for 40 years?
No, it certainly does not mean that Christ began to
reign at that point. It only discusses when the
beheaded began to reign WITH HIM.
One man made tower comes toppling down. :)
You see, end timers are so eager to promote their
doctrines, which they learned from books ABOUT the
Bible and not from serious Bible study, letting the
Bible be the ruler by which they measure these
doctrines, that they read any and all passages
presented in light of their man made doctrine, instead
of the other way around. They'd rather have someone do
the work for them, than to have to sit there and
seriously study the Bible themselves. And if it comes
from lack of being able to understand Revelation, I can
certainly respect that it is the most difficult book in
the Bible. But what I don't respect, is those who
insist on defending doctrines of men, when shown that
those doctrines don't hold up under the light of
Scripture. That comes from ego and vanity, which
requires that the Bible be all about them, or it is of
no use at all. (:
Think of it this way. Jesus said His words would stand
forever. So tell me, if He returned tomorrow, what
then? Does His word cease to stand? Is He now a liar?
Of course not. So then, the value of the Bible is not
determined by whether or not Jesus has returned yet,
but rather, by the words He gave us.
4) Revelation 20 does not mention the Second Coming of
Christ.
5) Revelation 20 does not mention a reign on Earth. In
fact, it doesn't even mention Christ on Earth.
6) Revelation 20 does not mention a bodily
resurrection.
7) Revelation 20 does not even mention us. It says
that *THEY* lived and reigned with Christ for a
thousand years. Who are *THEY*? Those who were
beheaded for witnessing about Christ. And note, it
does NOT say they were BODILY resurrected. John said
he saw, "THE SOULS of them who were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus".
8) Since none of what I know you believe is mentioned
in Revelation 20:4, you are required to support your
doctrine with Scripture and not imagination, which is
all you have provided thus far.
More man made towers come toppling down. :)
9) The beheaded are in Heaven, not on Earth and have
spiritual bodies, not physical bodies and this
demonstrates that the victory is in the spiritual
world, not the physical world. The Pharisees were
waiting for a physical victory, but guess what? Jesus
said it was not going to happen (Luke 17:20-21). So
why do you take the Kingdom that Jesus said is within
us and that we would NOT be able to see and point at
and try to make it a physical kingdom on Earth, where
Jesus just begins to reign and only does so, for a
thousand years, before being booted by Satan? Is that
the Jesus YOU worship? (: It isn't the one I worship,
that's for sure!
10) The term "thousand" is always used symbolically,
when dealing with time and large numbers of people or
things, in the Scriptures. Reference the following
examples...
People and things:
Job 9:3; Psalm 50:10; Ecc 7:28
Time and generations:
Deut 7:9; 1 Chron 16:15; Psalm 90:4
There are more examples.
As I said, the Bible clearly states that Christ's reign
is forever...
Luke 1:31-33
31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and
bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of
the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER;
and of his kingdom there shall be NO END.
The "thousand year reign of Christ" is a fairy tale.
It isn't found in Scripture and the "thousand" is
symbolic of "eternity", as other Scripture shows.
Also, the passage does not mention Jesus on Earth.
John is still looking in Heaven when he sees what he
sees in Revelation 20:4 and what he sees is therefore
taking place in Heaven, not on Earth..
Another man made tower falls. :)
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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